General Debate 12 May 2015

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kowtow

mikey

It was you who said they were keen to keep any mention out, but you are wrong.
It might be a wee mention but still there nonetheless.
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May 12, 2015 2:46pm
mikenmild

It doesn’t get you very far down the road to America as a christian nation though, does it? If I refer to our current year as 2015 does that mean I am acknowledging a christian construct for the purposes of measuring time?
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May 12, 2015 2:48pm
Griff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGAvwSp86hY
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May 12, 2015 2:53pm
Ryan Sproull

I think that “progressive” tends to refer to desired outcomes. Most progressives seem to or tend to prefer legislation and regulation to achieve those outcomes, but I don’t think that this is inherent to “progressivism”.
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May 12, 2015 3:06pm
Colville

http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/68487271/woman-charged-with-stealing-7000-of-prescription-drugs

Woman stole 5000 vials of anesthetic

Article says its worth $7000

What drug can you buy for $1.40 a shot? a asprin? The only record online I can find suggests its 100 times that expensive.

Any knowledge out there is KiwiBlog land?

27-Apr-2015 30039034 PROPOFOL EMULSION FOR INJECTION 500 MG IN 50 ML (PROVIVE MCT-LCT 1%) 50ML GLASSVIAL New Zealand Thar Dry Port ICD/Ahmedabad NOS 9,395 1,310,125 each 139
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May 12, 2015 3:35pm
kowtow

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness
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May 12, 2015 4:14pm
UglyTruth

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

Wow, rationalwiki… Would you like some pseudo-intellectual condescension to go with your with your scientism?
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May 12, 2015 4:19pm
Gulag1917

American patriots at the time of the American revolution were a combination of rationalists and Christians.
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May 12, 2015 5:02pm
nasska

….”“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness”….

The mythical “Creator” must be pretty pissed when He looks at what the Godaddled have done to the USA. Most religioconservatives seem to support the death penalty yet ‘kill them all….let God sort them out’ doesn’t exactly gel with a right to life.

Then there’s the small matter of liberty. From the Oxford Dictionary:

….”The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one’s behaviour or political views”…..

Sucks to be a Rastafarian but few better examples of the schizophrenia of those who know deep in their tummies what’s good for us exist.

Happiness…..you must be joking. It’s the conservative’s way or the highway & wipe that grin off your face boy!
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May 12, 2015 5:13pm
Fletch

According to a new poll, Democrats now view socialism as favorably as they view capitalism.

52% of Americans have a favorable view of capitalism, while only 26% have a favorable view of socialism. Among younger Americans, however, attitudes are a lot more divided. 36% of under-30s have a positive view of socialism, while 39% have a positive view of capitalism. Among over-65s, who came of age at the height of the Cold War, only 15% look upon socialism favorably while 59% have a like capitalism.

Democrats (43%) are also much more likely than either independents (22%) or Republicans (9%) to have a favorable view of socialism. Democrats, in fact, are as likely to have a favorable view of capitalism (43%) as socialism.

http://hotair.com/archives/2015/05/11/poll-democrats-now-view-socialism-as-favorably-as-they-view-capitalism/
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May 12, 2015 5:14pm
Fletch

Awesome commencement address by Denzel Washington, who tells graduates that the #1 most important thing is to “put God first”.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WG3nDda6D8
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May 12, 2015 5:15pm
Colville

Fletch @ 5.15.

Put God first huh?
So not hard work. Or your parents, honesty, morality, education. None of that stuff.
Just believe in that particular version of the sky fairy and everything will work out fine?

Ok thanks for that 🙂
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May 12, 2015 5:21pm
Colville

http://www.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/1/4/r/k/5/a/image.gallery.galleryLandscape.600×400.14rjif.png/1431386618331.jpg

I dont mind this flag !

How do I insert a pic rather than a link?
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May 12, 2015 5:26pm
Fletch

Put God first huh?
So not hard work. Or your parents, honesty, morality, education. None of that stuff.

YES, that’s right.

But first be concerned about God’s kingdom and his righteousness, and all of these things will be provided for you as well. ~ Matthew 6:33
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May 12, 2015 5:29pm
UglyTruth

American patriots at the time of the American revolution were a combination of rationalists and Christians.

The English monarchy than was rejected was overtly Christian, so the idea that Christian ideals were part of the motivations for the American revolution isn’t really a starter.
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May 12, 2015 5:31pm
nasska

Don’t think it can be done Colville. You can embed a video but not an image.
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May 12, 2015 5:31pm
stephieboy

Ugly Truth,

Thinking of things more rational ,

Your comprehensive answer to every Sandy Hook conspiracy theory
Every conspiratorial allegation about the tragic Newtown shootings, answered
ALEX SEITZ-WALD

While it’s often best not to engage with conspiracy theorists on their own turf, as you can probably never convince them, it’s worth setting the record straight on all the myths and phony evidence surrounding the Sandy Hook massacre.

We’ve rounded up every major piece of evidence we could find that leads theorists to say the “official narrative” of events “doesn’t add up” and provided the facts that show why these questions can be easily explained. We’ve ignored the empty accusations with no evidence to support them (it was the Jews!) and focused only on the theories that try to present actual empirical or circumstantial evidence.
Let us know if we missed any and we’ll add to it as more myths emerge. In no particular order, here is your comprehensive guide to disproving the Sandy Hook Truthers:….”

While it’s often best not to engage with conspiracy theorists on their own turf, as you can probably never convince them, it’s worth setting the record straight on all the myths and phony evidence surrounding the Sandy Hook massacre.

We’ve rounded up every major piece of evidence we could find that leads theorists to say the “official narrative” of events “doesn’t add up” and provided the facts that show why these questions can be easily explained. We’ve ignored the empty accusations with no evidence to support them (it was the Jews!) and focused only on the theories that try to present actual empirical or circumstantial evidence.
Let us know if we missed any and we’ll add to it as more myths emerge. In no particular order, here is your comprehensive guide to disproving the Sandy Hook Truthers:……..

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/18/your_comprehensive_answer_to_every_sandy_hook_conspiracy_theory/

And yet another Sandy Nook Conspiracy theory lie,

Debunked: FBI Says No one killed at Sandy Hook [Included in CT State total]

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/debunked-fbi-says-no-one-killed-at-sandy-hook-included-in-ct-state-total.4570/

Follow
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May 12, 2015 5:35pm
Griff

Colville

The southern cross I get as I have seen it progress over the horizon as you sail south towards home
The silver fern is part of our existing heritage being worn by our solders and athletes for a century or more.
The blue has traditionally represented the deep pacific ocean.
Is there any symbolism behind the red besides we are being sold to china?
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May 12, 2015 5:36pm
Fletch

Hillary 2016 supporters (who like Hillary’s pledge of “equal pay” for men and women) don’t know what to say when they find out she paid her female staffers 72c on the dollar as compared to male staffers when she was a senator. 🙂

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-eIDLvfd6s
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May 12, 2015 5:37pm
Griff

Post a static copy to u tube with a soundtrack and then link to it.
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May 12, 2015 5:38pm
stephieboy

Fletch, the American Revolution owed more to the ideas of Enlightenment thinkers and philosophers like John Locke, Rosseau and Monstesquei with their ideas of natural rights, separation of powers, balance of power etc and obviously less to centralised religious and monarchial authority ,

http://www.articlemyriad.com/influence-enlightenment-formation-united-states/

A very far cry from your Tea party far right Republican ,Ted Cruz notions of a Christian Fundamentalist Theocracy
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May 12, 2015 5:48pm
Gulag1917

Somee people trying to minimise the contribution of Christianity to the American revolution?
Of the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 52 were Orthodox Christians.
98 percent Protestant Christians; 1.8 percent Catholic Christians; .2 of 1 percent Jews was the population makeup.
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May 12, 2015 5:58pm
Gulag1917

There will be theocratic hardliners in the Tea Party but they will be in the minority, solution could be, kick them out.
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May 12, 2015 6:10pm
Fletch

…thinking about changing my nickname to Captain Downtick…. 😯
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May 12, 2015 6:11pm
stephieboy

Gulag 1917, no questions that christianity influenced the American revolution but more the kind that was influenced by the Enlightenment thinking I outlined previously which would be mainly Protestant and e.g orthodox christian requires further analysis and explanation.
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May 12, 2015 6:12pm
Andrei

f the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 52 were Orthodox Christians.

Gulag they were not Orthodox Christians.

Delicacy prevents me from calling them what they were
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May 12, 2015 6:15pm
Griff

Cat fight between the orthodox and papists
popcorn
Neither had anything to do with the founding of the usa.
The first three Presidents were not even Christians .
some Christian theocracy ….
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May 12, 2015 6:21pm
Gulag1917

Dr. M. E. Bradford of the University of Dallas, who wrote a series of biographical sketches on the fifty-five delegates to the Constitutional Convention, documented their religious affiliations: 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 3 deists and 1 unknown. At most, 5.5 percent of America’s Founders were deists, 3 of 55.
All the denominations at that time would have been creedal and had articles of faith therefore they were orthodox.
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May 12, 2015 6:23pm
mikenmild

You are correct to point out that most of the founding fathers were christians, although some of the most influential were deists, at best. What is interesting is how careful these christians were to separate church and state.
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May 12, 2015 6:28pm
Maggy Wassilieff

@ Andrei

they were not Orthodox Christians.

Westerners have no knowledge of the “one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church”
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May 12, 2015 6:32pm
Griff

In a world where not being Christian was exceedingly unusual.
The first three presidents and writers of the declaration of independence were the deists.
The next two are a probable deist and an unknown.
Defiantly not founded as a “Christian nation” more as a nation containing Christians.
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May 12, 2015 6:36pm
nasska

North America circa 1787 had been settled by people who were nominally or culturally Christian. That said they represented multiple denominations & then as today the various cults & sects couldn’t agree on how to build a pew, never mind a Constitution they could all live with.

The lack of press given to God was probably the only way compromise was possible.
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May 12, 2015 6:42pm
Sir Leslie Bottocks

NZ Music Month.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiirNyL065s
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May 12, 2015 6:46pm
Fletch

Griff, no matter what arguments you bring up, the truth is that America was conceived by Christians as a Christian nation. That cannot be denied. Was America atheist? Was it Muslim? Was it Buddist, Hindu, or Sikh? No, it was Christian. The highest court in the land has a frieze of Moses holding the 10 Commandments. Senators and Presidents alike are sworn into office on the Holy Bible. The Supreme Court opens sessions with the words, “God save the United States and this honorable court.”

So don’t tell me that America was not founded with Judeo Christian principles. It was indeed. Facts are facts.
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May 12, 2015 6:49pm
mikenmild

Fletch
‘the truth is that America was conceived by Christians as a Christian nation. That cannot be denied.’
No, it wasn’t. There, I just denied it.
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May 12, 2015 6:56pm
nasska

Fletch

The USA was colonised by Europeans who were culturally Christian…..I’m happy to concede that. They still represented multiple brands of Christianity & would have included a fair proportion of people who were tired of the corruption & political cronyism of the churches in their homelands.

The USA of 1787 would have been like 1950s NZ. Everyone had to belong to a sect or they were ostracised by society at the direction of the social engineers of the era…….they didn’t necessarily believe in the garbage.

This compulsion gave the established churches great power & they used it to dominate Law, Learning & Politics. It is this domination you confuse with principles.
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May 12, 2015 7:03pm
Than

“Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion”

Excerpt from the Treaty of Tripoli, unanimously ratified by the the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797.
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May 12, 2015 7:05pm
Griff

No Fletch the usa is a secular state .
Plainly set out in the first amendment and confirmed by judgment of the supreme court.

Everson v. Board of Education (1947), the U.S. Supreme Court incorporated the Establishment Clause (i.e., made it apply against the states). In the majority decision, Justice Hugo Black wrote:

The “establishment of religion” clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion to another … in the words of Jefferson, the [First Amendment] clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect ‘a wall of separation between church and State’ … That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach.
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May 12, 2015 7:06pm
RF

I feel sorry for the good people in Christchurch who have a former Labour MP as mayor and a laughing jackass for a deputy mayor. Miss Buck was their mayor years ago and took great pains to hide that she lived in Fendalton, a blue chip area. Was not a good look to have your Labour leaning mayor to be wealthy and living in the best area in town.

You will never get an honest serious answer from Buck as she is always laughing. Now she wants to give the ratepayers hard earned dosh to the sick the lame and the lasy.
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May 12, 2015 7:07pm
Manolo

More of the same from the country of idlers and loafers::

Greece’s finance minister says his country’s financial situation is “terribly urgent” and the crisis could come to a head in a couple of weeks.

Yanis Varoufakis gave the warning after eurozone finance ministers met in Brussels to discuss the final €7.2bn tranche of Greece’s €240bn EU/IMF bailout. Ministers said Greece had made “progress” but more work was needed.

The Greek government is struggling to meet its payment obligations.
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May 12, 2015 7:12pm
nasska

“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.

[Letter objecting to the use of government land for churches, 1803]”
― James Madison
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May 12, 2015 7:13pm
EAD

Wow, some people have a distorted view of early American history!

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/05/11/how-can-anyone-develop-such-a-distorted-view-of-america/

“History has always been paved by the ignorant, who refuse to acknowledge it, and by those who refuse to learn the great lessons that it teaches. American was inspired by the Founding Fathers who chose to build a government which would allow its people a chance to be all that they can be by self-reliance and rugged individualism, and in that spirit, was the inspiration for the American growth that marked the start of the 20th century.

It wasn’t the federal government that created the seeds of prosperity; it wasn’t the federal government that developed the new manufacturing techniques that allowed the most amazing inventions to be built in a cost effective manner; and it wasn’t the federal government that risked its savings, creating jobs, bringing forth all the modern products that became the envy of the world; and it wasn’t the federal government that built the companies that became the foundation on which this country grew.”
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May 12, 2015 7:18pm
Fletch

Griff, we have been over this and been over this. The “separation of church and state” means exactly the opposite of what you take it to mean. It means that the Govt cannot impose one certain form of religion on the population, it does NOT mean (and never did) that religion should have no place in the running of the state.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=123

And the U.S might be more of a secular state NOW, but it was not conceived that way.

The United States Supreme Court, the highest judicial body in America, which officially and unanimously declared in 1892 that America is legally and organically a Christian nation (Holy Trinity Church vs. United States). This alone should answer the question, but we’ll help you understand the reasons behind the Court’s declaration.

The Court did not merely say that most people in America were Christian, or that there were no Muslims or Hindus in America. According to the author of the Court’s unanimous opinion, the Court’s claim that America “is a Christian nation” is in “the domain of official action and recognition,” not mere “individual acceptance.” The Court demonstrates that our entire system of government was created –

* with a duty to acknowledge the authority of the God of the Christian Bible, and to obey His commandments
* by Christians who
– acknowledged the authority of God and were committed to obey His commandments
– intended the government they created to acknowledge and obey God.

http://isamericaachristiannation.org/
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May 12, 2015 7:37pm
Fletch

THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT

HOLY TRINITY CHURCH v. U.S.

143 U.S. 457, 12 S.Ct. 511, 36 L.Ed. 226

Feb. 29, 1892

http://vftonline.org/TestOath/HolyTrinityOp1-2.htm
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May 12, 2015 7:39pm
Fletch

A nice little primer showing step-by-step, why America was founded as a Christian nation — officially, legally, constitutionally.

Let the highest court in the land be your guide. Follow the Court’s history and review the documents cited by the Court.

http://vftonline.org/EndTheWall/TrinityHistory.htm
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May 12, 2015 7:51pm
Reid

officially, legally, constitutionally.

Masons have trouble being true Christians Fletch, for one reason because of the damage they swear to do to their own bodies if they reveal the secrets of the brotherhood, which negates Christ’s sacrifice for them. That’s not to say many don’t profess the faith and many don’t themselves believe they possess it. Just that it’s normally very difficult actually to have it, while they’re a registered Mason.

And almost all of the Founding Fathers were Masons.

Take a look at how Washington has been laid out.

Not much doubt there, is there.

No possibility its a coincidence, in any way.

Don’t believe me of course.

Most of you wouldn’t anyway.

However, wouldn’t it be interesting to discover Washington D.C.’s street layout really actually in fact indeed does mirror precisely, to a theodolite’s fractional precision, various Masonic symbols.

Wouldn’t that be interesting.

Just like a movie.

So don’t take my word for it.

Not that you would anyway, right?

Just do me a favour and don’t bray it’s completely false, even before you’ve looked it up to see for yourself whether it is or not. I’m getting sick of some of you who make a profession of doing precisely that.
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May 12, 2015 8:01pm
SPC

Reid, which speaks to the issue of the distinction between faith in a God as Creator and being of any religion that divides man against man. Saved and unsaved. Moslem and infidel.
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May 12, 2015 8:27pm
nasska

….”And almost all of the Founding Fathers were Masons.”….

Look on the bright side….if that’s the case, at least they weren’t Christian or Muslim. 🙂
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May 12, 2015 8:29pm
UglyTruth

A nice little primer showing step-by-step, why America was founded as a Christian nation — officially, legally, constitutionally.

The fallacy in the opinion is the assumption of Christianity as a universal religion:

The opinion quotes a religious theme:

“Or like that in articles 2 and 3 of part 1 of the constitution of Massachusetts, (1780:) “It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the Supreme Being, the Great Creator and Preserver of the universe. ”

And quotes a religious theme with a specific Christian character:

Or by article 22 of the constitution of Delaware, (1776,) which required all officers, besides an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe the following declaration: “I, A.B., do profess [143 U.S. 457, 470] faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration.”

But the opinion makes no distinction between them:

“There is a universal language pervading them all, having one meaning.”

I.e it does not follow that a religious people are necessarily Christians.

http://vftonline.org/TestOath/HolyTrinityOp1-2.htm
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May 12, 2015 8:32pm
stephieboy

EAD,

…It wasn’t the federal government that created the seeds of prosperity; it wasn’t the federal government that developed the new manufacturing techniques that allowed the most amazing inventions to be built in a cost effective manner; and it wasn’t the federal government that risked its savings, creating jobs, bringing forth all the modern products that became the envy of the world; and it wasn’t the federal government that built the companies that became the foundation on which this country grew.”

Explain how e.g the transcontinental rail road and Eire Canal were funded !
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May 12, 2015 8:44pm
Tauhei Notts

Stephieboy,
What on earth has that canal in southern Ireland go to do with North America?
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May 12, 2015 9:04pm
Reid

Stephie likes to make things up about stuff people never mentioned and pretend that’s what they were talking about Tauhei.

It’s quite abusive and he does it so often to so many different people one is forced to conclude it’s no accident, it’s a deliberate tactic.

It’s sometimes innocent enough, but when he does it on something serious, like sexism or racism, that’s when it becomes unacceptable. But he has no limits and lines like those and worse are often crossed.

For some reason DPF tolerates it.

I don’t know why.
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May 12, 2015 9:12pm
nasska

A report that an Alien spaceship sighting in the Nevada Desert during the summer of 1969 was covered up by the US military , has been dismissed as ‘a ridiculous conspiracy theory’.

A spokesman added , ” We were filming the Moon landings at the time. “
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May 12, 2015 9:13pm
SPC

The Irish and Erie Canal – Wayne County

Oct 17, 2014 – ÉIRE ON THE ERIE. The Irish and Erie Canal. The Éire on the Erie Conference will examine the role that Irish immigrants played in the building …

http://www.co.wayne.ny.us/departments/…/Eire%20on%20the%20Erie.pdf
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May 12, 2015 9:23pm
SPLOOGE

OOOHHHH AARRRRGH……………………So funny…..https://www.facebook.com/maimorningcrew/photos/a.702158776468055.1073741825.219981801352424/1091026064247989/?type=1
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May 12, 2015 9:36pm
Jack5

A link for Andrei – Ukrainians piss off Poles.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2015/0511/Honors-for-Ukrainian-nationalists-anger-their-victims-in-Poland
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May 12, 2015 9:41pm
stephieboy

Tahei Notts,

Tuenu nost,

here dum, dum the Eire Canal one of the worlds largest civil engineering projects, began in 1817 running for over 350 miles in the New york state and beyond west funded largely by state issued bonds ,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erie_Canal

It is myth that vast engineering projects of this kind and the Transcontinental railroad were purely funded by private venture capital.
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May 12, 2015 10:15pm
Reid

It is myth that vast engineering projects of this kind and the Transcontinental railroad were purely funded by private venture capital.

Not that anyone at all including Tauhei was even talking about that in any way whatsoever stephie. So why, precisely, did you feel a need not only to bring a totally irrelevant angle into the discussion which on-one was even discussing? And not only to do that, but to paint it as if it addresses some point someone was making.

How ridiculous.

Not to mention, you’re wrong.

But who cares about that.

No-one was even talking about those things, anyway.

BTW, I’ve reported you for your insult to Tauhei, how dare you call him dum dum. Who do you think you are.
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May 12, 2015 10:52pm
stephieboy

Reid, it was this false claim by your fellow rather deluded conspirator ,

stephieboy (5,337 comments) says:
May 12th, 2015 at 8:44 pm
EAD,

…It wasn’t the federal government that created the seeds of prosperity; it wasn’t the federal government that developed the new manufacturing techniques that allowed the most amazing inventions to be built in a cost effective manner; and it wasn’t the federal government that risked its savings, creating jobs, bringing forth all the modern products that became the envy of the world; and it wasn’t the federal government that built the companies that became the foundation on which this country grew.”

Explain how e.g the transcontinental rail road and Eire Canal were funded

EAD like you can be not only simplistic but highly misleading at times,

https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/development-west/essays/financing-transcontinental-railroad
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May 12, 2015 10:55pm
Reid

Reid, it was this false claim by your fellow rather deluded conspirator ,

So what does anything that EAD said have to do with what you said: viz;

Tahei Notts,

Tuenu nost,

here dum, dum…

Very insulting stephie.

Again, what does Tauhei (note the spelling), have to do with EAD?

Also, your sentence: “it was this false claim by your fellow rather deluded conspirator” seems to imply you lump everyone together and don’t separate them at all. So anything one of the “lumpees” says gets attributed to everyone else you’ve in your own mind lumped together.

Not acceptable stephie.

At all.

Ever.

In any way.

You have elucidated why your behaviour has for so long here been so peculiar. It now falls into place.

But not acceptable stephie.

Stop it.

Don’t lump together, ever again.

We are all individuals.

None of us speak for anyone else.

Don’t ever repeat don’t ever repeat don’t you dare ever again, assume that when one of us says something, that anyone else in your delusional lump thinks the same thing.

I don’t care what happens inside your own mind stephie, just don’t you dare ever do that again.

It’s not acceptable.

How would you like being held responsible for what Shawn says. Or what nasska says. Or what Redbaiter says?

See what I mean?

Not rocket science, is it.

SO STOP DOING IT NOW STEPHIE. RIGHT NOW. NO EXCUSES. STOP IT. FOREVER.

And I’m referring this post to DPF so he knows what you do and he’s got the evidence above, so the next time you do it your victim can report you in the safe knowledge DPF knows exactly who you are.
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May 12, 2015 11:07pm
SPC

Reid, what about accurately “attributing” responsibility in more general matters, or would that compromise partisan debate too much? It would certainly make it hard to entertain the latest CT as a topic.
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May 12, 2015 11:31pm
Harriet

nasska (13,090 comments) says:
May 12th, 2015 at 8:29 pm

….”And almost all of the Founding Fathers were Masons.”….

Look on the bright side….if that’s the case, at least they weren’t Christian or Muslim.

———————————-

Nassareth —- to be a Mason you do have to believe in a God[or higher being] – that’s why they have the Bible, Torah, Koran ect at Mason Lodges.

Ryan Sproul will tell you the finer points about it as he was a Mason and Buddist.- Well at least he said he was. 🙂
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May 13, 2015 5:34am

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