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April 28, 2015 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 28 April 2015

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Fletch

A man goes undercover to gay bars and clubs to ask gay patrons the question “Do you believe being gay is strictly genetic?” It seems that most of the people he ask say that it is NOT. Many replied that they had been molested or abused when they were younger etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h5pI7KASjU

Citizen Journalist, Ryan Sorba recently went undercover in Palm Springs, California, posing as a same-sex marriage activist.
He asked the following question: “Do you believe being gay is strictly genetic?”

The video enclosed in this email is a montage of clips from interviews in which gays admit that they believe they are gay due external circumstances, such as being sexually abused at an early age or going through other traumatic experiences.
When asked how many interviews Sorba obtained during this venture, he answered, “There are many more to come.”

http://clashdaily.com/2015/04/gays-admit-they-were-not-born-that-way-shocking-undercover-video-footage-right-here/

I think we’re coming to the end of this fallacy that gay people were “born that way”.
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April 28, 2015 11:49am
jcuk

Jack5 (6,030 comments) says:
China now has more land in vineyards than France does.

Do they not have more consumers as well?
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April 28, 2015 11:52am
Fletch

After the allegations in an upcoming book about the Clinton’s accepting cash for favors, they are acting like the kid with his hand in the cookie jar. They are admitting they “made mistakes”, and are having to re-file IRS tax returns.

The Clinton Foundation acknowledged Sunday that the nonprofit group “made mistakes” in IRS filings and defended its disclosure of controversial contributions from a Canadian financier, following days of intense public scrutiny about foundation finances.

“We made mistakes, as many organizations of our size do, but we are acting quickly to remedy them,” foundation executive Maura Pally wrote on the foundation website. “And [we] have taken steps to ensure they don’t happen in the future.”

The donations were called into question last week by Peter Schweizer, author of the soon-to-be-released book “Clinton Cash.”

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/04/27/clinton-foundation-addresses-disclosure-31m-canadian-donation-refiling-irs/

Look for many more admissions of ‘mistakes’ to come, I would say.
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April 28, 2015 11:54am
SPC

Fletch, in the past black and white minstrels, then the white artists who would cover black music for a white audience. Nowadays there are still places in black athlete professional sport for white people and neither white people nor Hispanic are banned from rapping.
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April 28, 2015 11:54am
IGM

Fletch: These are deviants, and their behaviour is that of choice, not genetic. If they want reassignment, I have some spare applicators and rings, would even do the job for a small fee. Would be a laugh seeing a weirdo jumping around paddocks like recently rung ram lamb.
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April 28, 2015 11:58am
SPC

Fletch, still peddling the line that no matter how people are born, or what they would choose that they should be criminalised for their choices and banned form legal relationship?
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April 28, 2015 12:00pm
Fletch

Looking at legislation that liberals in the U.S are trying to pass, it looks like they are going to try to force churches and religious schools to accept the liberal values that go strictly against church teaching.

The first, the District of Columbia’s so-called “Reproductive Health Non-Discrimination Act,” would force pro-life groups, including churches and para-church organizations, to hire pro-abortion zealots and other godless rabble-rousers with worldviews and socio-political agendas overtly hostile to the express mission of those churches and organizations.

The second, the farcically mislabeled “Human Rights Amendment Act,” would jettison the longstanding “Armstrong Amendment,” which, as notes the Daily Signal, “was enacted by Congress in 1989 to exempt religious schools in D.C. from being forced into violating their beliefs about human sexuality by ‘promoting, encouraging, or condoning any homosexual act, lifestyle, orientation, or belief.’”

In other words, under this new legislation churches and religious schools will be forced, under penalty of law, to deny the Christian sexual ethic and, instead, promote, encourage and condone homosexual behavior and other pagan sexual immorality.

So much for “human rights.”

http://eaglerising.com/17729/us-government-moves-to-force-churches-to-deny-christian-sexual-morality/
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April 28, 2015 12:00pm
SPC

IGM, well noted what we force on livestock we cannot deny to those who consent to it.
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April 28, 2015 12:03pm
Fletch

Fletch, still peddling the line that no matter how people are born, or what they would choose that they should be criminalised for their choices and banned form legal relationship?

SPC, we make laws limiting the choices that people can make all the time; laws that protect society, such as not having a relationship with a minor, etc. I am not talking about people being criminalised, but it is one thing not to criminalise someone and another to change the law itself around a longstanding institution such as marriage for the sake of the desires of a small group.

What makes a law just or unjust? Martin Luther King answered that in his famous Letter from a Birmingham Jail.

“One may well ask: How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?” wrote King. “The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that ‘an unjust law is no law at all.’

“Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine whether a law is just or unjust?” wrote King. “A just law is a man-made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas: An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law.”

Now, I ask you: does the gay marriage law square with both God’s law and Natural Law? I would say, neither.
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April 28, 2015 12:11pm
Griff

Do us all a favor Fletch and go to a gay bar and have bum sex with men.
We dont want to see your homo erotic obsession day after day.

What makes a law just or unjust?

Its not up to you that’s for sure Fletch
after all you tell us you are a christian
yet ignore Christs do not judge .

Now, I ask you: does the gay marriage law square with both God’s law and Natural Law? I would say, neither.

gods law doesn’t apply with the majority of us who dont think he is real
Natural law is eat or be eaten no more no less .
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April 28, 2015 12:12pm
Redbaiter

Good grief.

Aspergers sufferers constantly suggesting, in almost every comment, they’re speaking for all of us or the sane majority.

Only on Kiwiblog GD.
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April 28, 2015 12:19pm
Griff

Redbaiter you dont talk for anyone but a extremely small minority of deluded fuckwits
Christinty is a minority on this country
Something you are probably aware of as you are not a christian but by your own admission agnostic.

The aspie thing red why keep bringing it up ?
Because that is all you have to attack me with after I have made you look like a total fuckwit hundreds of times to the extent you ran away .
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April 28, 2015 12:24pm
Fletch

after all you tell us you are a christian
yet ignore Christs do not judge .

What the Bible means there is that we do not condemn, as that is up to God alone.
The Bible is pretty clear that when someone is sinning, that he should be confronted, first by the offended, then by one or two others, then by the church if he does not repent.

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’[a] 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. ~ Matthew 18:15-20

These are Jesus’ own words – so is that using our judgement (based on God’s word) or not?
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April 28, 2015 12:28pm
Keeping Stock

http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/business/qoa/00HOH_OralQuestions/list-of-questions-for-oral-answer

Three out of twelve Oral Questions this afternoon seem to be targeting Key and his Ministers over the cafe incident. One is from Annette King who has a closet full of skeletons of her own, and two are from the Greens.

Isn’t it wonderful to see our Opposition parties so focused on policies?
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April 28, 2015 12:29pm
Scott Chris

PM’s wife to comply with Saudi Arabia dress code

John Key’s wife Bronagh will submit to a strict Muslim dress code when they visit the Islamic stronghold of Saudi Arabia this week.

Well at least the Saudi women won’t be dangling temping ponytails around the place. Hopefully JK will resist the temptation to give someone’s Keffiyeh a sneaky tug. 🙂
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April 28, 2015 12:34pm
Redbaiter

“Well at least the Saudi women won’t be dangling temping ponytails around the place.”

Actually, “tantalising” was the word John Key used.
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April 28, 2015 12:37pm
Griff

The Bible is pretty clear that when someone is sinning, that he should be confronted, first by the offended,

The bible is extremely clear that jesus said do not judge.
John 8:7
Matthew 7:1
Luke 6:37
Romans 2:1
1 Corinthians 4:5
on and on
You are not “confronting sinners” you are judging an entire class of people who you have never even meet.

There is a large amount of evidence that homophobic people like you are like that because you suppress your homoerotic desires .
Most of us dont give a fuck what people do in private .
because it is not our business.
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April 28, 2015 12:39pm
Tauhei Notts

That carry-on in Baltimore Maryland could get a bit ugly.
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April 28, 2015 12:43pm
Fletch

Most of us dont give a fuck what people do in private .
because it is not our business.

Oh, really? So if a man was having sex with an underage girl or his own daughter, you do not care about that? I guess not, unless it is your relative etc. But are you saying that you cannot see how an action like that is harmful to society as a whole? If so, you have extraordinary lack or vision and foresight. Anything that undermines the family (the building block of society) undermines society as a whole.

In a column, a woman raised by gay parents writes how gay marriage has eroded fundamental rights in Canada.

I want to warn America to expect severe erosion of First Amendment freedoms if the US Supreme Court mandates same-sex marriage. The consequences have played out in Canada for ten years now, and they are truly Orwellian in nature and scope….

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/04/14899/

Gay marriage harms the entire polity.
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April 28, 2015 12:51pm
OneTrack

KS – “Three out of twelve Oral Questions this afternoon seem to be targeting Key and his Ministers over the cafe incident”

Our left opposition have nothing. They are just nasty childish activists playing stupid gotcha games. And we pay them $150 K each to do this. If they were in the private sector, they would have been sacked by now.

Time we dropped the number of MPs to 60, and spend all the money saved on the starving children.
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April 28, 2015 1:01pm
Fletch

By the way Griff, I have looked at some of the Bible verses you googled about judging. Etc, in Matthew 7:1 –

So I have been doing some googling on my own –
Here, the Greek word for “judge” is krino, meaning to condemn, avenge, damn, sentence, or levy a punishment. Now then, Jesus does go on to say that some of us have sins that are worse than those of the people we are judging. The full verse you cite is as follows (highlighting mine) –

“Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. 2 For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. 3 Why do you see the speck in your neighbor’s[a] eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your neighbor,[b] ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ while the log is in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor’s[c] eye.

Now then, as per the highlighted bit – what strikes you? Here (and I am paraphrasing) Jesus looks to be saying, ‘get rid of the sin from your own life, and only then do you have the right to be critical of others’. He does not say, ‘do not judge at all’, but says to get rid of your own sin first. That is what I take from the reading. And, after all, it only makes sense – would Jesus ask that we be content to leave others in their own sin, with their souls being in mortal danger without knowing that what they are doing is wrong, or is it up to the Christian to at least point these things out and to say, ‘hey, you shouldn’t be doing that as it goes against God’s law’. What if I get to the Judgement Throne and God asks me, ‘you had a chance to save Griff’s eternal soul from damnation, but you chose not to say anything’?
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April 28, 2015 1:03pm
Griff

Gee Fletch must I always put the qualifier on those words?
provided you do no harm
As to incest.
It is wrong to have sex with an underage girl because it will pervert their development but what two consenting adults do is not my business.
If you chose to fuck your mother I dont care.
You are both adults ….

Gays agave been around since before we invented gods fletch. Gays haven’t destroyed your mythical Traditional family in the million or so years humans have been here.

Gay marriage is here to stay in the civilized west dont like it fuck off the some Muslim hell hole were your fundie religus thinking is more mainstream.
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April 28, 2015 1:04pm
Pete George

“pony-tails… any chance of a day without them today?”

“Three out of twelve Oral Questions this afternoon seem to be targeting Key and his Ministers over the cafe incident. ”

No chance. And it’s likely to be repeated next week when Key returns to Parliament.
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April 28, 2015 1:08pm
Fletch

Gays agave been around since before we invented gods fletch. Gays haven’t destroyed your mythical Traditional family in the million or so years humans have been here.

Yes, and they were treated as odd and/or perverted. Gay sex (or sodomy) was a crime until recently and gays were arrested for it. Gays haven’t destroyed the traditional family so far, because traditional marriage has not been subverted in all of history as it is now.

As for your qualifier, “provided they do no harm”, who are you to judge what is harm and what is not? As per my link above, gay rights have eroded fundamental human rights in Canada since gay marriage was established there 10 years ago. Do you consider that harmless?
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April 28, 2015 1:13pm
Viking2

Talking about the Clintons accepting cash for favours. Looks like Penny may well be right about Auckland.

Three people have been charged over bribery allegations worth more than $1 million involving former employees of Auckland Transport and Rodney District Council.

Stephen James Borlase, 50, Barrie Kenneth James George, 68, and one other person who has name suppression appeared in North Shore District Court today facing charges laid by the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) over the corruption and bribery of an official.

It is alleged that while in various engineering and management roles either at Auckland Transport or Rodney District Council, George and an associate received undisclosed payments or gratuities from Borlase, the director of Projenz Ltd, a supplier to AT and RDC.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11439780

And there may well be more rorts of this nature to be uncovered.
So that’s Sweeny and this lot. Cmon Auckland you can do better than that.
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April 28, 2015 1:19pm
Griff

Yes, and they were treated as odd and/or perverted

Nope fletch only in the god addled country’s
Before Christianity spread its toxic dogma around the world gays were just another sexual orientation
look at ancient Rome and Greece were our civilizations bases comes from.

gay rights have eroded fundamental human rights in Canada
😆
Have they Fletch ?
According to whom… another christian fundie pushing the same crap as you?

By the way fundamental human rights have nothing to do with christian concepts.
They arose out of the enlightenment and rejection of Christianity’s dogma

You should start up your own chapter of Westboro Baptist Church. That is is what you are pushing .
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April 28, 2015 1:25pm
wellygirl

“… the China FTA has already proved to be great for New Zealand exporters. It will be Phil Goff’s one true legacy for a lengthy political career, and he deserves credit for it.”

KS I couldn’t agree more, as a Kiwi living in Beijing, I see the benefits on a daily basis, and it is not just with Fonterra, many ‘non-nz’ products are here that have NZ distribution details, leading me to think that the NZ distributors are exporting them to China, an example is Twinings Tea. I have also seen a number of products and brands from NZ here that I don’t see in my local countdown or New World.

And that is what I am seeing in my weekly shopping trips, you can also buy a whole range of NZ wines, Comvita Honey, and Zealong Tea have just opened a shop in Beijing. The trade is expanding and it can only be good for NZ.
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April 28, 2015 1:26pm
Fletch

gay rights have eroded fundamental human rights in Canada

Have they Fletch
According to whom… another christian fundie pushing the same crap as you?

According to a woman who was raised by gay parents and who has tesitmony from many others raised the same way about the problems with it.

I am one of six adult children of gay parents who recently filed amicus briefs with the US Supreme Court, asking the Court to respect the authority of citizens to keep the original definition of marriage: a union between one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others, so that children may know and may be raised by their biological parents. I also live in Canada, where same-sex marriage was federally mandated in 2005.

I am the daughter of a gay father who died of AIDS. I described my experiences in my book: Out From Under: The Impact of Homosexual Parenting. Over fifty adult children who were raised by LGBT parents have communicated with me and share my concerns about same-sex marriage and parenting. Many of us struggle with our own sexuality and sense of gender because of the influences in our household environments growing up.

We have great compassion for people who struggle with their sexuality and gender identity—not animosity. And we love our parents. Yet, when we go public with our stories, we often face ostracism, silencing, and threats.
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April 28, 2015 1:27pm
Griff

one of six adult children of gay parents who recently filed amicus briefs with the US Supreme Court

six people in a nation of one hundred and twenty million.
6/120,000,000
That is hardly convincing in the real world Fletch.
I would suggest that your girlie has issues around losing her father nothing more .
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April 28, 2015 1:31pm
Fletch

Testimony from another woman –

Gay community, I am your daughter. My mom raised me with her same-sex partner back in the ’80s and ’90s. She and my dad were married for a little while. She knew she was gay before they got married, but things were different back then. That’s how I got here. It was complicated as you can imagine. She left him when I was two or three because she wanted a chance to be happy with someone she really loved: a woman.

I’m writing to you because I’m letting myself out of the closet: I don’t support gay marriage. But it might not be for the reasons that you think.

It’s not because you’re gay. I love you, so much. It’s because of the nature of the same-sex relationship itself.

Same-sex marriage and parenting withholds either a mother or father from a child while telling him or her that it doesn’t matter. That it’s all the same. But it’s not. A lot of us, a lot of your kids, are hurting. My father’s absence created a huge hole in me, and I ached every day for a dad. I loved my mom’s partner, but another mom could never have replaced the father I lost.

I grew up surrounded by women who said they didn’t need or want a man. Yet, as a little girl, I so desperately wanted a daddy. It is a strange and confusing thing to walk around with this deep-down unquenchable ache for a father, for a man, in a community that says that men are unnecessary. There were times I felt so angry with my dad for not being there for me, and then times I felt angry with myself for even wanting a father to begin with. There are parts of me that still grieve over that loss today.

I’m not saying that you can’t be good parents. You can. I had one of the best. I’m also not saying that being raised by straight parents means everything will turn out okay. We know there are so many different ways that the family unit can break down and cause kids to suffer: divorce, abandonment, infidelity, abuse, death, etc. But by and large, the best and most successful family structure is one in which kids are being raised by both their mother and father.

MORE – http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/17/dear-gay-community-your-kids-are-hurting/
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April 28, 2015 1:31pm
Griff

withholds either a mother or father from a child while telling him or her that it doesn’t matter. That it’s all the same. But it’s not. A lot of us, a lot of your kids, are hurting. My father’s absence created a huge hole in me, and I ached every day for a dad.

As I said I would suggest that your girlie has issues around losing her father nothing more .
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April 28, 2015 1:32pm
stephieboy

Fletch, a little reminder of the shocking epidemic of family abuse and violence in the US among hetero sexual married couples .

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/23/domestic-violence-statistics_n_5959776.html
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April 28, 2015 1:36pm
Fletch

stephie, you’re setting up and knocking down a strawman. Are you saying that there would be less domestic violence in gay marriages by virtue of them simply being gay? For what reason?
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April 28, 2015 1:38pm
Old.Mickey.Blue.Eyes

Viking2 (12,341 comments) says:
April 28th, 2015 at 1:19 pm
Talking about the Clintons accepting cash for favours. Looks like Penny may well be right about Auckland.
It is alleged that while in various engineering and management roles either at Auckland Transport or Rodney District Council, George and an associate received undisclosed payments or gratuities from Borlase, the director of Projenz Ltd, a supplier to AT and RDC.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11439780

__________________________________

V2 – Long bow you are pulling re Penny being right.
These alledged offences were prior to the Supercity formation, and happened in Rodney while under steely eye of Penny Hulse and Christine Rose…….I had the misfortune of dealing with B.George trying to get a dangerous road fixed sooner rather than later…..The offending Road did get fixed, and with no fuss from B.George.
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April 28, 2015 1:44pm
stephieboy

SGA (1,888 comments) says:
April 28th, 2015 at 9:24 am

My remark makes perfect sense actually . Bruce Jenner is not Charles Manson so there is no question of welcoming the latter into anything. including the Conservative party .

But come to think of it if Manson did truly repent what then . eh ?

Again Jenner declaring himself a Christian Conservative Republican would still exclude him/herself from the Conservative Party ?
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April 28, 2015 1:50pm
Griff

No we are saying humans are human being gay is just another part of the human condition
in any population of humans a certain percentage are gay.
so fuckin what.
Go read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Reports Fletch human sexuality is extremely deserve
Get with the modern world buddy and out of your ancient cults bubble of unreality
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April 28, 2015 1:50pm
Paulus

Who is this Bruce Jenner – is he a New Zealander or an Aussie ?
Never heard of him !
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April 28, 2015 2:04pm
stigie

Haven’t you seen any tv of the Kardashians Paulas ?
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April 28, 2015 2:13pm
Fletch

Griff, the Kinsey reports have been well and truly debunked. For instance, he reckoned that 10% of the population is gay. We now know that this was heavily exaggerated because he based his studies on samples from the prison population. The true percentage of homosexuals and lesbians is around 1.6% according to the latest CDC report in the U.S.

The government study found that only 1.6% self-identify as homosexual (gay or lesbian), while 0.7% of those surveyed consider themselves “bisexual, and 1.1% of adults identified as “something else.” According to the study, 96.6% of American adults considered themselves “straight.”

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr077.pdf

The truth is, human beings were made one way. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see how we function. It’s funny how you, Griff, fall back to science and scientific theories to support your stance on global warming, but when it comes to sexuality, science is thrown out the window in favor of people’s desire which, in the case of homosexuality, goes completely against science and the ecology of the body.
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April 28, 2015 2:27pm
SPC

Fletch, still identifying as Vatican1 in a Vatican2 world?
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April 28, 2015 2:42pm
Griff

Fletch read wiki on Kingsly with or without the prisoners the result is the same
your debunking is bunk .

Science Fletch ?
Don’t need science I just look out into the paddock and watch the bulls trying to fuck each other.
without doubt, if I could be bothered to play with your homoerotic fantasy world any more. I could find studies that say homosexual behavior is found in most mammalian forms .
if I must
http://www.yalescientific.org/2012/03/do-animals-exhibit-homosexuality/

As to AGW who else you going to quote on it ?
The shaman at your church?
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April 28, 2015 2:43pm
OneTrack

““pony-tails… any chance of a day without them today?”

“Three out of twelve Oral Questions this afternoon seem to be targeting Key and his Ministers over the cafe incident. ”

No chance. And it’s likely to be repeated next week when Key returns to Parliament.
”

We must live in the best country in the world under John Key’s PM-ship, if the only thing the hard-left can come up with to “hold the government to account” is a slight personal gaff which the guy has already apologised for long ago.

Progressive Illiberal Lefties, focussing on the important stuff, since 2008. Absolutely hopeless. It would be funny if it wasn’t so pathetic.

Maybe Leader of the Opposition Winston Peters can do better. Because he couldn’t possibly do worse.
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April 28, 2015 2:43pm
SPC

Fletch, organising hearsay evidence to be disseminated on blogs, is preaching to the converted, no one else is convinced by it.
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April 28, 2015 3:32pm
SPC

My advice catch up with the modern world, embrace legal equality for couples and consenting behaviour (freedom in society) – it does the church no harm where it wants freedom of faith action for itself.

The real issue at the moment is well being of children – note its impossible to stop same sex couples breeding them and raising up their own.

And debate it with awareness that many mothers and fathers are absent in the heterosexual parent world – many more than there will ever be in the same sex couple world. Or be no more than a sectarian in that debate also.
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April 28, 2015 3:42pm
Fletch

“On matters of style, swim with the current. On matters of principle, stand like a rock” – Thomas Jefferson
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April 28, 2015 4:17pm
SPC

And if Benjamin Franklin explained to him the risk of rising sea levels and the importance of the ship being able to float?
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April 28, 2015 4:51pm
Griff

Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
— Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82
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April 28, 2015 4:58pm
SPC

The Genesis shares bonus shares have been distributed today.

138 for the standard 2076 issued originally (1 in 15).
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April 28, 2015 5:05pm
SGA

stephieboy at 1:50 pm

My remark makes perfect sense actually .

Well… no.

Again Jenner declaring himself a Christian Conservative Republican would still exclude him/herself from the Conservative Party ?

He could declare himself a green unicorn, but that doesn’t mean green unicorns had to accept him as such.
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April 28, 2015 5:31pm
nasska

Now there’s an angle Colin hasn’t covered. ‘Green unicorns for Jesus’ would be a catchy slogan for 2017. 🙂
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April 28, 2015 5:38pm
Michael

Mark Lundy is appealing his sentence. Last time he appealed he got an extra three years. I wonder if this could happen again.
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April 28, 2015 5:39pm
rightoverlabour

A few drug smugglers are going to have an uncomfortable few hours..I am a bit ambivalent about the pending executions in that I have no time for the drug trade, and feel that the best drug dealers are dead ones. However, I also have a major problem with Indonesia’s judicial system, I would not like to be falsely accused of any crime in that country or have my luggage tampered with by some drug smuggler. The hard nosed attitude of their man at the top is a bit disconcerting as well. I would like to suggest that after the executions take place there will be repercussions for Indonesia. I for one will never go on holiday there. I suspect the Australian and other police forces of the soon to be executed nationals will probably not co-operate with Indonesians police to the same extent as before. And I doubt any Australians will ever donate to any future relief efforts the next time there is an earthquake or some other disaster. Indonesia may come to regret the next few hours more than the few condemned men and women who will not be any the wiser come sunrise here tomorrow. I do feel tremendous pity for their families.
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April 28, 2015 5:44pm
Griff

Colin
Colin will not be back in 2017 nasska .
I think he has realized that money doesn’t buy elections in nz after blowing five million or so for…
squat.
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April 28, 2015 5:47pm
nasska

….”Colin will not be back in 2017″….

And slapstick comedy will be the poorer for it Griff. Mind you, the 2014 campaign was remarkably economical compared with their previous fiasco.

From memory the NZ Conservatives paid a little over $30 per vote in 2011 but this figure dropped to $20.02 in 2014.
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April 28, 2015 5:52pm
stigie

Griff/Nasska…We need Colin and his money around in 2017 otherwise Reddy wont be here to have some fun and to deal with us all !~
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April 28, 2015 5:58pm
mandk

@ Griff,
What makes you so sure that the Conservatives will not be back in 2017?
They got 2.65% in 2011 and 3.97% in 2014.
They could easily get over 5% in 2017.
And the Nats might be minded to gift them a seat to get them over the line. After all, they can’t keep relying on the Belmont-Ohariu voters to back Dunne.
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April 28, 2015 5:59pm
Fletch

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event.”
–Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

“I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.”
–The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.
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April 28, 2015 6:02pm
nasska

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3i2mrupamufqfvm/Religionutters%2025.jpg?dl=0
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April 28, 2015 6:07pm
Griff

And the Nats might be minded to gift them a seat to get them over the line
lol
not unless Colin radically changes his approach.
his stated bottom line.
No more asset sales and binding referendum ruled him out of coalition with national.

If by religion we are to understand sectarian dogmas, in which no two of them agree, then your exclamation on that hypothesis is just, “that this would be the best of worlds if there were no religion in it.”
— Thomas Jefferson, in a reply to John Adams’ letter,
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April 28, 2015 6:09pm
nasska

“The Christian right, which trumpets the theme of family values, damns contemporary culture for undermining older traditions. Yet many individuals from this camp are not concerned first and foremost about family values per se. Family is a codeword for constraint; families and family values place constraints on individuals more effectively than any other institution, including government. The Christian right seeks a society in which all are constrained; they reject big government for failing at constraint, and for undermining those institutions, like the family, that have a chance at succeeding.”

― Tyler Cowen, In Praise of Commercial Culture
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April 28, 2015 6:21pm
Fletch

families and family values place constraints on individuals more effectively than any other institution, including government.

Load of bollocks. Any successful society is built around the family. The family is the building block of society.

For Aristotle, the irreducible core of a polity is the family. Thus, Aristotle begins his Politics not with a single individual, but with a description of a man and a woman together in the family, without which the rest of society cannot exist. He says: “First of all, there must necessarily be a union or pairing of those who cannot exist without one another.” Later, he states that “husband and wife are alike essential parts of the family.” The family is the nursery of virtue, which reaches its perfection in the polis. “Every state is [primarily] composed of households”, Aristotle asserts. Without the family, there are no villages, which are associations of families, and without villages, there is no polis. In other words, without households—meaning husbands and wives together in families—there is no state. In this sense, the family is the prepolitical institution. The state does not make marriage possible; marriage makes the state possible. Homosexual marriage would have struck Aristotle as an absurdity since a polity cannot be founded on its necessarily sterile relations. This is why the state has a legitimate interest in marriage—because, without it, it has no future.

If Aristotle is correct—that the family is the primary and irreducible element of society—then chastity becomes the indispensable political principle because it is the virtue that regulates and makes possible the family. Without the practice of this virtue, the family becomes inconceivable. Without it, the family disintegrates. A healthy family is posited upon the proper and exclusive sexual relationship between a husband and wife. Violations of chastity undermine not only the family, but society as a whole.

Reilly, Robert ( ). Making Gay Okay: How Rationalizing Homosexual Behavior Is Changing Everything (Kindle Locations 502-514). . Kindle Edition.
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April 28, 2015 6:49pm
Griff

Yip nasska hence our authoritarian weirdo redbait strongly identifies with the conservonutter Christians despite not actually believing in their nonsense .
Its a way to exert control.
http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf
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April 28, 2015 6:52pm
nasska

Successful procreation & to the max was a pretty good recipe for the survival of any grouping of humans right up to a century or so ago Fletch. Plagues, famine & predations from sabre tooth tigers are now very rare in civilised nations & the world’s population figures would suggest that over procreation is more of a threat to our species than that of us dying out.

If 1.6% of the world’s population are practising homosexuals & don’t replace themselves it’s not a gamechanger.
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April 28, 2015 6:59pm
UglyTruth

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3i2mrupamufqfvm/Religionutters%2025.jpg?dl=0

Atheists, apostles for ignorance.
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April 28, 2015 7:01pm
nasska

Constraint & control by the “right sort” of people is Baity’s wet dream Griff.

To him the Godnutters are just useful idiots whose views on authoritarian control coincide with his own.
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April 28, 2015 7:02pm
SPC

Fletch, was homosexual activity not more common place in Greek society than today? And is there one word from Aristotle saying that this was a threat to the family?
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April 28, 2015 7:14pm
Fletch

It depends what you mean by constraint and control. A train cannot travel altogether anywhere it wants; it is constrained by the train tracks over which it must travel. Yet, those same tracks are guides which make it able to go exactly where it needs to go and to perform the function for which it was intended without any unintended harm befalling it.

God’s laws and morals are a bit like those tracks. God designed us, so he knows exactly what we need to get on in life. His laws might sometimes seem confining, but they actually can save us from heartbreak and mishap we incur by ignoring them (ie, abortion, addiction, drunkenness, sexual disease, and even death). The moral way may not always be the funnest, but following it ultimately makes life easier because of how it is based on how we are made.
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April 28, 2015 7:20pm
Fletch

SPC – I do not think that the Greeks thought of homosexual relationships as any more than a kind of, i don’t know, training for boys, or initiation or something. I would have to read more, but…

We shall see the relevance of this idea of man’s good to his sexual behavior as we examine the subject of sexuality in ancient Greece. It is ironic that the proponents of homosexuality so often point to ancient Greece as their paradigm because of its high state of culture and its partial acceptance of homosexuality, or more accurately, pederasty. Some ancient Greeks did write paeans to, and depict in art, homosexual / pederastic love, and male erotic attraction obviously had enough currency in Greek society to be a serious topic of discussion in the Platonic dialogues. However, it did not occur to the celebrants of this kind of love to propose homosexual relationships as the basis for marriage in their societies. The homosexual association that was mostly publically accepted—and then only in the upper reaches of society—was between an adult male and a male adolescent.

This largely pedagogical relationship, whose purpose was to form good and noble citizens, was to be temporary, as the youth was expected to marry and start a family as soon as he reached maturity. The idea that someone was a homosexual for life or had this feature as a permanent identity would have struck the ancient Greeks as more than odd. In other words, homosexuality, for which a word in Greek did not exist at the time (or in any other language until the late nineteenth century), was mostly transitory. It also appears that many of these mentoring relationships in ancient Greece were chaste and that the ones that were not rarely involved sodomy, which was widely considered a shameful outrage. Homosexual relationships between mature male adults were not accepted by Greek society at large. In fact, they were often the object of derision.

According to classics professor Bruce S. Thornton, the passive homosexual, the adult kinaidos, became the symbol in Greek culture of “unrestrained compulsive sexual appetite, of surrender to the chaos of natural passion that threatens civilized order, traitor to his sex”.9 As Thornton points out, Aristophanes often skewered the kinaidos in his plays as the emblem of sexual incontinence and political corruption. In a fifth-century B.C. allegory composed by Prodicus, Virtue accuses Vice of “using men like women”.10 In the fourth century B.C., in Aeschines’ prosecution against Timarchos, the latter is charged with “outraging his own body contrary to nature [para phusin]” in playing the passive homosexual.11 The older “Just lover” does not seek physical gratification, said Aeschines, but is a “witness to chastity”. This hardly matches the idealized homosexual paradise that our contemporaries hark back to in an attempt to legitimize behavior the ancient Greeks would have considered shameful, despite their relatively liberal sexual attitudes.

In the Laws, Plato’s last book, the Athenian speaker says, “I think that the pleasure is to be deemed natural which arises out of the intercourse between men and women; but that the intercourse of men with men, or of women with women, is contrary to nature, and that the bold attempt was originally due to unbridled lust.”12 By its nature, lust is unbridled, irrational, and therefore destructive of what it is to be human. Giving in to it is therefore dehumanizing.

Reilly, Robert ( ). Making Gay Okay: How Rationalizing Homosexual Behavior Is Changing Everything (Kindle Locations 451-455). . Kindle Edition.
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April 28, 2015 7:26pm
nasska

….”makes life easier because of how it is based on how we are made.”….

Crap.

….” A train cannot travel altogether anywhere it wants; it is constrained by the train tracks over which it must travel”….

True….the problem is that you & your mates want the terminus to be the House of your Magic Fairy & we’re not buying tickets.
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April 28, 2015 7:27pm
Griff

God’s laws and morals
lol
Mathew 5:7
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18″For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.…

Food and drink

Consuming blood (Genesis 9:4), Leviticus 17:10[12]
Eating a cheeseburger or anything that mixes meat and dairy (Exodus 23:19)
Sacrificing anything with yeast or honey (Leviticus 2:11)
Eating leavened bread (bread with yeast) during the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Exodus 12:15)
Eating fat (Leviticus 3:17)
Eating pork (Leviticus 11:7-8)
Waiting too long before consuming sacrifices (Leviticus 19:5-8)
Eating aquatic creatures lacking fins or scales (Deuteronomy 14:9-10)
Eating any meat not killed according to the Kosher practice (Deuteronomy 12:21)
Eating peace offerings while ritually unclean (Leviticus 7:20)

[edit] Religious

Being a male who is not circumcised. (Genesis 17:14)
Trying to convert people to another religion (Deuteronomy 13:1-11, Deuteronomy 18:20)[13]
Worshiping idols (Exodus 22:20, Leviticus 20:1-5, Deuteronomy 17:2-7)
Practicing magic (Exodus 22:18)[14]
Blaspheming (Leviticus 24:14-16, 23)
Breaking the Sabbath (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36)
Consulting a psychic or spiritualist (Leviticus 19:31)
Being a psychic, medium or spiritualist (Leviticus 20:27)[15]
Being a town that believes in another, non-YHWH god (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)[16]
Giving one of your descendants to Molech (Leviticus 20:2)[17]
Not being a priest and going near the tabernacle when it is being moved (Numbers 1:51)
Being a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:5, Deuteronomy 18:20, Zechariah 13:2-3)
Performing any work on the Sabbath (Exodus 20:10)
Going to the temple in an unclean state (Numbers 19:13)
Engaging in ritual animal sacrifices other than at the temple (Leviticus 17:1-9)
Manufacturing anointing oil (Exodus 30:33)

[edit] Violent and legal crimes

Murdering a slave (Exodus 21:26-27)[18]
Kidnapping and selling a man (Exodus 21:16)
Perjuring yourself (in certain cases) (Deuteronomy 19:15-21)[19]
Ignoring the judgement of a judge or a priest (Deuteronomy 17:8-13)
Not constraining a known dangerous bull, if the bull subsequently kills a man or a woman (Exodus 21:29)[20]

[edit] Parenting

Striking your parents (Exodus 21:15)
Cursing your parents (Exodus 21:17, Leviticus 20:9)
Being a stubborn, rebellious, profligate, and drunkard son (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)[21]

[edit] Daily life

Planting more than one kind of seed in a field (Leviticus 19:19)
Wearing clothing woven of more than one kind of cloth (Leviticus 19:19)
Cutting the hair on the sides of your head or clipping of the edges of your beard (Leviticus 19:27)[22]
Touching the dead carcass of a pig (Deuteronomy 14:8)
Dressing across gender lines (Deuteronomy 22:5)
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April 28, 2015 7:28pm
EAD

My Tinman earlier makes an excellent point about the anti drink driving ad being shown on tv.

Whichever way you look at it, it’s hard to argue we’ve got a National Party interested in governing as opposed to being more interested in permanently socially engineering the country formerly known as New Zealand into some progressive shithole.

I mean just loom at Key’s language and you can tell where his priorities are:

– Balancing the books? Not important as it is an “Artificial target” http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/67727550/key-maintains-he-can-hit-artificial-surplus-ahead-of-prebudget-speech

– Changing the flag? Urgent review in order to “leave a legacy”.

Then there are the actions of his MPs and government agencies like the police and education department.

National Party supporters need to ask themselves just how long they continue to support these Charlatans just because they’re not Labour.
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April 28, 2015 7:37pm
Fletch

Griff, I’m sure we’ve been over your cut’n’pastes before – I’ve even taken the time in the past to try and answer some of them, but I really can’t be bothered tonight, sorry…
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April 28, 2015 7:37pm
Shawn Herles

Cripes, I leave you guys alone for a few hours and you start arguing about religion again! 😉
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April 28, 2015 7:43pm
nasska

Pull up a chair Padre. 🙂
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April 28, 2015 7:47pm
SPC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes
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April 28, 2015 7:50pm
Pete George

I thought Christianity was supposed to be strong on family but someone posted this.

Matthew 10:34-39
New International Version (NIV)

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

35 For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law- 36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

Maybe explains Gloriavale.

Still seems really crappy to not put a priority on family, tp me that’s the most important thing I can do in my life, see to family first and foremost. Especially my children.
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April 28, 2015 7:51pm
Griff

Whichever way you look at it, it’s hard to argue we’ve got a National Party interested in governing as opposed to being more interested in permanently socially engineering the country formerly known as New Zealand into some progressive shithole.

I suggest if you dont like it there a many country’s you could fuck of to that are not so progressive
anywhere on the middle east bar Israel for a start.
or
Especially for you EAD Somali were there is a totally free market with no horrible government interference.
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April 28, 2015 7:51pm
Shawn Herles

Oh I see, it started as a homosexual issue, then mutated!
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April 28, 2015 7:52pm
Griff

nasska quotes a song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdHI3LrAYiE
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April 28, 2015 7:53pm
EAD

Are you still in meltdown mode Grief?

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/04/24/climate-activists-in-meltdown-as-sceptic-gets-australian-government-funding/

While your opponents run rings around you:
http://truebluenz.com/2015/04/18/tyrants-on-left-call-for-pynes-resignation-over-funding-for-bjorn-lomborg/
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April 28, 2015 7:56pm
Shawn Herles

What’s really scary is that I’m old enough to remember 10cc when they were producing albums.
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April 28, 2015 7:56pm
MT_Tinman

EAD (2,229 comments) says:
April 28th, 2015 at 7:37 pm

National Party supporters need to ask themselves just how long they continue to support these Charlatans just because they’re not Labour.

I thank you for the kind words and admit I am not a National supporter but must, unfortunately, given the only real alternative, state the answer to your question must be; for a bloody long time.
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April 28, 2015 7:58pm
nasska

….”Still seems really crappy to not put a priority on family”….

One minute they’re hot on families & the next they’re dumping on them.

It’s all very confusing PG. 🙂
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April 28, 2015 7:59pm
Shawn Herles

”Still seems really crappy to not put a priority on family”

I’ll have a go at that one.

Let’s say you have a hypothetical family. This families business is crime, crime that involves hurting innocents.

What is a member of that families primary obligation? The family, or the innocents being hurt by that family? In other words, does family always come first, or justice?
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April 28, 2015 8:07pm
nasska

I read it another way Shawn. The message seemed to be that if you did not believe you were to be ostracised by your family supposedly in order not to be a bad influence on them.

Drink the Koolaid or close the door behind you when you leave.
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April 28, 2015 8:15pm
Andrei

I wonder what would happen if Russian politicians went to Baltimore to encourage the rioters there the way American politicians went to Kiev to encourage Ukrainian rioters in 2013?

It wouldn’t happen of course
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April 28, 2015 8:19pm
Shawn Herles

That wouldn’t be an accurate way to read it though naaska.

Justice was always Christ’s primary concern.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’”

Matthew 25

So, with the above passage in mind, what Jesus was getting at was that while family is important, justice to the poor, the weak, and the powerless comes first.
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April 28, 2015 8:23pm
Shawn Herles

I sometimes wonder if Andrei just waits around for me to show up so he can flog that horse again.

Give it up Andrei. Neither of us is going to change our minds, and the horse is well and truly dead.
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April 28, 2015 8:28pm
nasska

You’re spinning better than a Labour Party PR expert. 🙂
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April 28, 2015 8:30pm
Shawn Herles

No spin naaska. That’s just what Jesus obviously meant, given his overall point of view and his own stated concerns.

But there is a positive in this for you. I have just given you a club to knock some of my more extreme conservative “family values” brethren over the head with! 😉
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April 28, 2015 8:33pm
Andrei

Back to the wall Shawn?

Scared at the realization that the USA is not a force for good in the world but a creator of mayhem and misery?

Uncomfortable is it?

Take a look at this picture Shawn – her name was Yulia, she was 21 and murdered on her way to work as a nurse by fascists Shawn.

You can’t answer my question because you know what the USA did and is doing is wrong and evil!!!!
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April 28, 2015 8:37pm
Shawn Herles

“Back to the wall Shawn?”

No. It’s currently up against my couch.

And you already know that for every supposed US “evil” you trot out, I can bring up something terrible Russia has done or is doing. Like the videos documenting horrific human rights abuses by the Russian military I posted earlier today.

So, what’s the point? What can be said has been said, and as I said, neither of us is going to change our minds. All we are going to do is bore everyone else on KB to despair.
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April 28, 2015 8:41pm
Tauhei Notts

All those comments about ancient Greeks and bum banditry reminds me of a story.
Years ago Lucky Strike cigarettes used to be advertised as;
“Lucky Strike; separates the men from the Boys.”
And somebody asked
“How do they separate the men from the boys in Greece?
The answer came;
“With crowbars!”.
I think the Greek term is “kolok benass.
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April 28, 2015 9:45pm
wellygirl

I am just listening to Larry Williams on demand, and in the sports news they talked about a League player who posted a homophobic slur on his instagram, now I don’t know what he said, and have no comment on that, but what struck me about the story was the bit that went along the lines that he was ordered to enter an education program.

Now, I don’t know about anyone else, but to me that sounds scarily like the re-education camps of Communist Russia, or during Mao’s time in China, or even what continues to happen in North Korea today. What is this education program meant to do? Adjust his attitude? And if this is the case, does this mean soon if anyone who says anything deemed offensive they will be required to attend an ‘education program’ to adjust their thinking? Food for thought on where we are going with the ultra PC thought police on social media.

Before the (no doubt) inevitable comments about me condoning homophobia and homophobic comments, I do not condone homophobia or homophobic comments, and if he said something that was homophobic then he needs to front that and take the consequences, my post here is nothing more than highlighting the language used, and interpretation of that language.
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April 28, 2015 10:14pm
srylands

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-east/68113353/john-key-arrives-in-saudi-arabia-amid-calls-for-tougher-line-on-human-rights

“While Little wouldn’t rule out trading with countries that don’t meet New Zealand’s human rights expectations, he said using the opportunity to put “pressure on getting change in Saudi Arabia” was vital.

When asked if his wife would cover up with a head scarf to respect Saudi Arabian custom if the situation arose, Little said it was unlikely.

“I have confidence my wife will make her own decisions about how she presents herself but personally I doubt whether she would.”

The Green Party has also called for a tougher line from Key, saying Saudi treated women as “3rd class citizens” and the free trade agreement should not go ahead.

“Till then, John Key’s trade deal by definition excludes women,” co-leader Metiria Turei said. “It’s likely there’ll not be one Saudi woman in the room when he negotiates the deal, not one Saudi woman will sign it, nor own a business that benefits from it, nor will any woman be allowed to vote for politicians to oversee it.’
_______________________________________________________________________________________

Which planet are these people on? They want the PM to “get tough” on Saudi Arabia. Yeah that will work.

In the unlikely event that Andrew Little does become PM, I hope these idiotic statements are thrown back at him.
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April 28, 2015 10:29pm
Manolo

The experts in selling smoke join the AGW brigade: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/apr/28/vatican-climate-change-summit-to-highlight-moral-duty-for-action
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April 29, 2015 12:37am
Shunda barunda

Now, I don’t know about anyone else, but to me that sounds scarily like the re-education camps of Communist Russia, or during Mao’s time in China, or even what continues to happen in North Korea today. What is this education program meant to do?

He has fallen to the high priests of “the human rights inquisition” he will recant, convert, or be punished.

The next lefty government here will bring a flood of this garbage, no doubt about it.

Totalitarian government is here to stay.
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April 29, 2015 1:04am

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A Day of Reckoning
NZCPR
Media Link: “A View from Afar” on the US elections.
Kiwipolitico
This will not end well
Offsetting Behaviour
Top 14 Predictions for Round 10
Stats Chat
Tory Whanau may have to sell Wellington mayoralty to make ends meet
The Civilian
The Accidental Engagement
Imperator Fish
Legal Beagle: Election '23: The Special Votes
Public Address
Making this movie might have been a mistake
Liam Hehir
Why I am retiring from political blogging
Kiwi FireWalker
Angie Warren-Clark: Meet the Newbies
Dan Moskovitz

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