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March 1, 2015 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 1 March 2015

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General Debate

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UglyTruth

No True Scotsman is a logical fallacy by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing;

That is an oversimplification, the acid test is falsifiability.

This fallacy is a form of circular argument, with an existing belief being assumed to be true in order to dismiss any apparent counter-examples to it. The existing belief thus becomes unfalsifiable.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/no-true-scotsman/
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March 1, 2015 8:53pm
Reid

Ignorance of Islam has lead us to the situation where entire countries are being dictated to by immigrants who refuse point blank to accept the mores & customs of the countries who accepted them into their midst (eg Britain & France).

No that’s bullshit.

The only people who’ve been ignorant of Islam is you morons over the last twenty to thirty years.

The immigration authorities and the politicians who set the policy that the immigration authorities have been applying have known, all this time, exactly what’s been happening and exactly what would happen. After all, this is what they do for a job, 24/7/365, FFS.

So the answer, if you’re not just a fucking moron which apparently all of you evidently are, is to ASK THOSE PEOPLE WHY THE FUCK THEY HAVE DONE WHAT THEY HAVE DONE OVER THE LAST TWENTY YEARS. Isn’t it.

That’s the logical and reasonable thing to do.

Isn’t it.

But instead, what do we see?

All the fucking fools and morons who let this happen while they baaaaad and bleated in their green green meadow are now turning round and not blaming the people who allowed it to happen.

No.

Instead, they’re blaming the people who are just acting as they’ve been programmed to do, by their generations of being bought up in the desert in a tribal existence with no education.

Hence this reality.

So root cause is?

Gee.

Look in the mirror.

Idiots.
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March 1, 2015 9:02pm
nasska

….”So are you saying that western capitulation leads to war? “….

Not in the early stages but as the demands of the immigrants become overbearing to the point that even the Quislings amongst us can no longer ignore the threat then civil war will be inevitable. So today’s desire for peace at any cost may have a terrible price tag a little farther down the track.

….”If you are worried about pushy Islamists creating cultural ghettoes in NZ then your options are either to kick them out of the country or open a dialogue. “…..

Although it is the way the treacherous, bleeding heart multiculturalists have set it up expelling those already here would send us down a very dangerous path. We’ll probably manage what we have but immigration from Islamic counties should cease at midnight tonight & bugger the whining & accusations of “unfairness”.

“Dialogue” doesn’t work when one side of potential discussions has been lobotomised by religion.
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March 1, 2015 9:04pm
UglyTruth

Who gives a fuck if they are “true” muslims?

People who distinguish between the devout and hypocrites.

As sure as shit I don’t and it is just deflecting from the real problem.

You don’t think hypocrisy is a problem?

That problem is that these muslims (true or not matters not at all) are quite simply animals.

You have no idea what the problem is.

I fail to see why you think that islam is not an issue because they do not follow the koran to your interpretation.

That’s not what I think.
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March 1, 2015 9:06pm
Sponge

UT:

“People who distinguish between the devout and hypocrites.”

And this is important as your head is being cleaved from your shoulder how? I actually get many of the points you make but you are living in a land of theory and not reality.

“You don’t think hypocrisy is a problem?”

See above.

“You have no idea what the problem is.”

Then what is the problem? Spell it out for us – and I genuinely mean that. I would like to know what you think the problem actually is.

“That’s not what I think.”

So you do think ISIS follow the koran?
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March 1, 2015 9:11pm
nasska

Reid

….”The huge increases in migrants over the last decade were partly due to a politically motivated attempt by ministers to radically change the country and “rub the Right’s nose in diversity”, according to Andrew Neather, a former adviser to Tony Blair, Jack Straw and David Blunkett.

He said Labour’s relaxation of controls was a deliberate plan to “open up the UK to mass migration” but that ministers were nervous and reluctant to discuss such a move publicly for fear it would alienate its “core working class vote”. “…..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

That is what lies behind the coming disaster. Spineless leaders who sought to divide & conquer who were aided & abetted by their successors who lacked the guts to stop the rot.

Go for the simple explanations that are simply explained by human nature…..they’re usually the correct ones.
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March 1, 2015 9:15pm
Kiwi Dave

Fletch @ 12.13

I’m very late to the debate but here are some alternative quotations.

‘Even during his lifetime, people were unsure of the degree to which Washington believed in Christianity. As noted above, some of his contemporaries called him a deist. Debate continues to this day regarding whether he is best categorized as a deist or as a Christian, and some writers have introduced other terms to describe a blending of the two.’ (From the Wiki entry for George Washington religion.)

“As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion…” (From the Treaty of Tripoli as quoted in Wiki, which was confirmed by President John Adams and passed unanimously by Congress).

‘Jefferson wrote that “Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God.” He called the writers of the New Testament “ignorant, unlettered men” who produced “superstitions, fanaticisms, and fabrications.” ‘(From the Wiki entry for Jefferson Bible).

None of these quotations shows that you are wrong and Wat is right, rather that we need to be a little cautious with phrases such as ‘Christian principles.’ By the late 18th century, Christian principles (especially the Old Testament and heretic extermination kind) had been modified by Deism and the enlightenment in the Anglo-American world.

We could take the golden rule as a Christian principle, but it is also found in non-Christian and pre-Christian societies.

The Nietzsche and Solzhenitsyn quotations raise two different issues that require a lot more than this brief post, e.g, following Solzhenitsyn should we also say that ISIS has forgotten God?
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March 1, 2015 9:15pm
Reid

Go for the simple explanations that are simply explained by human nature…..they’re usually the correct ones.

IF that was the case nasska then what we’d see are patterns of difference between Western countries and between conservative and liberal govts but we see none of that.

All over the Western world, our politicians on both sides have been overriding the will of the people.

Since the 1970’s in Europe. Since the 1990’s here.

Whose tune are they dancing to, because it’s sure not the tune of the people.

And rather than spending time trying to pretend the square peg fits into the round hole and actually, our politicians really have been following the will of the people. Rather than doing that, you should ask yourself why.
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March 1, 2015 9:22pm
UglyTruth

“So are you saying that western capitulation leads to war?”

Not in the early stages but as the demands of the immigrants become overbearing to the point that even the Quislings amongst us can no longer ignore the threat then civil war will be inevitable. So today’s desire for peace at any cost may have a terrible price tag a little farther down the track.

Have you heard of the boiling frog analogy? It says that when the process of change is slow and gradual, people don’t register the threat until it is too late. What that means is that your civil war would have no chance of fixing the problem – long story short is that if you capitulate you lose.

We’ll probably manage what we have but immigration from Islamic counties should cease at midnight tonight & bugger the whining & accusations of “unfairness”.

If you did that all you would be doing would be delaying the inevitable. You would have sent a very clear message that cultural assimilation will not work, and in time the natural Muslim population growth would have the same effect as increased numbers via immigration.

“Dialogue” doesn’t work when one side of potential discussions has been lobotomised by religion.

Atheism is a religion, it’s just a way more stupid one that the regular ones.
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March 1, 2015 9:27pm
nasska

Reid

Once those pesky & irritating election thingies are over for another three or four years politicians of all hues incur memory fade. Promises to the plebs are consigned to the sideline. Instead they concentrate on repaying favours to sponsorsors & build up enough brownie points to get them to repeat the donation next time.

It’s never been any different since the Whigs opposed the Tories.
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March 1, 2015 9:37pm
stephieboy

Reid, so you saying our votes and what they mean are purely illusory ?

It could be easily argued that during the time period you quote there has in fact been an expansion of social and political freedoms in Western Democracies . The beginnings and expansion of the internet age obviously testify to that with the participation of all kinds of Conspiracy , Radical Right and left blogs , forums etc. Ron Paul, Paul Craig Roberts , Zero Hedge , Democracy Now , Global Research ,What Really Happened ? , Information Clearing House, Resne etc. An avalanche of them in fact .

But as I may of asked you before how do you feel personally left out of the loop or say oppressed in this respect so to speak ?

I find it interesting how the likes of you align yourself with both Conspiracy ,radical and authoritarian causes who would given half the chance would be happy to close down or seriously filter those blogs etc not to your personal social and political tastes and prejudices .
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March 1, 2015 9:42pm
nasska

The “boiling frog” theory is totally dependent on there being a total guarantee of inaction. If a reaction occurs, even amongst a few, within a time frame that allows countermeasures, however tardy they may be, then victory for those in charge of the heating is not a forgone conclusion.

….”and in time the natural Muslim population growth would have the same effect as increased numbers via immigration”….

Many of NZ’s current Muslims are here because they were hounded out of Fiji. They are definitely lower key than most from the Fertile Crescent. If there is ever to be any form of assimilation with the rest of us it is doomed by the further import of fresh, radicalised immigrants.

….”Atheism is a religion, “…..

….Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist.”…..

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism”…..
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March 1, 2015 9:55pm
Manolo

Myth-peddler cum social activist: http://news.yahoo.com/pope-francis-attacks-throw-away-economic-globalization-142552599.html

ROME (Reuters) – Pope Francis launched a fresh attack on economic injustice on Saturday, condemning the “throw-away culture” of globalization and calling for new ways of thinking about poverty, welfare, employment and society.
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March 1, 2015 10:01pm
Odakyu-sen

Japan has been watching trends in Europe.
Source: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/32788ff0-ea00-11e3-99ed-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3T7gGtVAn

“On a recent television programme, Shinzo Abe (the Japanese Prime Minister) was asked about one of Japan’s most politically delicate topics: immigration. Given that the population is shrinking and fewer than 2 per cent of residents are foreign, was it time for the country to throw open its doors?
“The prime minister’s answer could hardly have been clearer – “In countries that have accepted immigration, there has been a lot of friction, a lot of unhappiness both for the newcomers and the people who already lived there,” he told the audience, as he held up a white signboard marked with a red “x” to underscore his negative position on the issue.

Japan will deal with its own social problems in its own way, on its own terms. It won’t be easy, but if we pull it off, then China will follow.
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March 1, 2015 10:05pm
UglyTruth

And this is important as your head is being cleaved from your shoulder how?

The issue of hypocrisy is important because it is a directly related to the perception of good and evil. If ISIS is widely perceived to be evil because of their hypocrisy then their support will wither and die and they won’t have the resources necessary to go around killing off infidels.

I actually get many of the points you make but you are living in a land of theory and not reality.

All man made laws started out as theories. If I’m living in fantasy land then how is it that I can come up with a scientific explanation for the energy of the destruction of the WTC but the 9/11 commission was unable to do the same? The energy question is purely scientific but the conclusion implies conspiracy and coverup in no uncertain terms.

Then what is the problem?

The problem is ignorance, especially ignorance based on vanity. The critical areas of knowledge relate to the threat assessment and to intelligent non-human life forms (extraterrestrials, ghosts, angels, deities, etc).

So you do think ISIS follow the koran?

Parts of it, sure. Problem is that ISIS grew out of political differences with Shia Islam and their focus was never on the message but rather on the acquisition of secular power, i.e. territory for their so-called caliphate.
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March 1, 2015 10:15pm
Odakyu-sen

Reid @ 9:22 noted:
“All over the Western world, our politicians on both sides have been overriding the will of the people.”

But the People voted for these politicians; therefore it is the People who must take responsibility. And yet, in New Zealand some 88% of people polled in a recent survey indicated support for the status quo (National, Labour, Greens).

The People seem to be willing the ship of state to keep sailing on its present course.

What might it take to change their minds?
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March 1, 2015 10:15pm
Sponge

UglyTruth (5,493 comments) says:
March 1st, 2015 at 10:15 pm

“their support will wither and die”

No. There are enough mentally ill people to keep this nonsense going.

9/11 – You are off on the looney train again, I won’t comment further.

“intelligent non-human life forms”

More lunacy (lizards perhaps?). No further comment required.

ISIS follow the koran. They are true islamists – prove they are not.
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March 1, 2015 11:12pm
UglyTruth

No. There are enough mentally ill people to keep this nonsense going.

You are wrong. People typically mean to do the right thing, if it becomes obvious that something is evil then they naturally oppose it.

9/11 – You are off on the looney train again, I won’t comment further.

You lose. Energy science has nothing to do the the “looney train”.

“intelligent non-human life forms”

More lunacy (lizards perhaps?). No further comment required.

It is vanity to think that there is no intelligent life out there more advanced than ourselves. They could well have worked out how to travel faster than light. The Phoenix Lights is but one example of visitation – a craft 5000ft across that was caught on video and seen by a large number of witnesses.

ISIS follow the koran. They are true islamists – prove they are not.

Fuck you. You made the claim, the burden of proof is yours.
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March 2, 2015 8:32am
UglyTruth

The “boiling frog” theory is totally dependent on there being a total guarantee of inaction. If a reaction occurs, even amongst a few, within a time frame that allows countermeasures, however tardy they may be, then victory for those in charge of the heating is not a forgone conclusion.

For this to happen there has to be some kind of catalyzing event, something that indicates that the situation has changed so that a critical mass of people are motivated to act.

If there is ever to be any form of assimilation with the rest of us it is doomed by the further import of fresh, radicalised immigrants.

Every group has its radicals and extremists, extremism only becomes a problem when the core ideology becomes fractured. IOW the problem can be addressed through knowledge of the ideology and the political forces acting upon it.

….Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist.”…..

The rejection of a belief is itself belief because you can’t hold a position (eg theism or athiesm) without having belief about it.
The position that there are no deities is logically untenable because having that knowledge implies omniscience. This doesn’t mean that deities must exist, only that the default condition is that we don’t know it they exist or not.
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March 2, 2015 8:59am

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