General Debate 16 March 2015

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UglyTruth

Tom Cotton’s unpatriotic forefathers: Treasonous Iran letter not the first time GOP has crossed the line

The Republican senators who warned Iranian officials that any agreement they made with President Obama would not outlive the present administration appear to have been blindsided by the backlash against their letter. Republicans as well as Democrats have responded to the move with such fury that unnamed sources clumsily suggested the letter was only a “cheeky” reminder that Congress should have a voice in negotiations. Sen. John McCain downplayed the extraordinary letter as business as usual: “I sign lots of letters,” he told Politico.

But the firestorm continues to rage. Newspaper editorials slam the senators who signed the bill; more than a quarter of a million people have signed a petition calling for the senators to be tried for treason; #47Traitors has been trending on Twitter. Why has this letter garnered such a visceral reaction when attacks on the president and his policies are the everyday currency of the modern Republican Party?

It has created a backlash because it shows, with crystal clarity, that the ideology of Movement Conservatives is not simply partisanship. It is an attack on American democracy itself.

http://www.salon.com/2015/03/15/tom_cottons_unpatriotic_forefathers_treasonous_iran_letter_not_the_first_time_gop_has_crossed_the_line/
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March 16, 2015 8:12am
stephieboy

Ugly Truth,

For once I agree with you .

Meanwhile Netanyahu trailing at the polls,

http://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/the-new-zealand-herald/20150316/281865821950608/TextView

WOW !
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March 16, 2015 8:15am
Manolo

This con-man states the obvious about vile Islam: http://www.cnbc.com/id/102505423
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March 16, 2015 8:18am
Nukuleka

I no longer watch any free to air tv because the content tends to be such tripe and the news presentation is slanted. Everything is about ‘controversy’. So it comes as no surprise to see that Mediaworks and TV3 are cynically creating controversy and therefore publicity through two of its latest celebrity nobodies, going by the unlikely names of Willie Moon and Natalie Kills. One day Mr Moon is in the headlines for calling a middle aged Mum a ‘c***’. This is followed by his wife, Miss Kills, berating an ‘X Factor’ contestant in the most unnecessarily vicious terms for allegedly modelling himself upon her husband and infringing upon her husband’s ‘intellectual property’.

This delectable pair certainly know how to garner publicity for themselves, and in turn TV3 knows that such notoriety will pay them handsome dividends when it comes to serving up increased audiences for their advertisers. I don’t think I much like this turn of events in our country where most of us still believe in civilised values and have a preference for good manners over the uncouth.
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March 16, 2015 8:21am
Tarquin North

Nukuleka, did you really expect anything better from TV3? They just get trashier by the day.
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March 16, 2015 8:31am
Lance

@Nukuleka
These programs should have a public health warning before airing.
“Warning – the following program will cause cumulative brain damage”

I must add that Q+A has descended into that category
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March 16, 2015 8:33am
Elaycee

…..did you really expect anything better from TV3?

Wow! Does someone still watch TV3?

[gulp]
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March 16, 2015 8:35am
Griff

People still watch TV.
How quaint.
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March 16, 2015 8:36am
Ed Snack

Stephieboy, you can tell a person by the company he keeps….UT is a 50% type, all U and no T.

And 250K people, in a nation the size of the USA, couldn’t the MoveOn and other Soros funded organizations afford to pay more people to sign up ? That’s pitiful. And here’s a clue, Congress has an official part in this “treaty” business, like, the Constitution actually covers that. For treaties to be binding they have to be approved by a 2/3rds majority of the Senate, and suddenly it’s a treasonous act to point this out to a President who seems to want to ignore this ? I guess they must all just be racists for objecting to rule by “The Won”.
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March 16, 2015 8:41am
UglyTruth

UT is a 50% type, all U and no T.

Democracy is too important for the people to be allowed to participate, right Ed?
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March 16, 2015 8:44am
SGA

Elaycee at 8:35 am

Wow! Does someone still watch TV3?

What?!? You mean you aren’t keeping up with X-Voice Idol? Apparently, the dark-haired judge was really, really mean to some guy and then ….
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March 16, 2015 8:44am
lolitasbrother

The argument that Ugly Truth offers, and accepted by Stephie Boy, [comments at the top here] is that a new USA administration can not announce an intended change of policy from the previous administration. Well cry me a river, and fall over sideways precious darlings
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March 16, 2015 8:46am
Tarquin North

Sorry Elaycee, I had one of those weird moments while channel surfing last night. I have never watched anything like this before, but it was like a car crash – I just had to watch a bit more to see if it really was that bad or the first contestant was just a one off! Then I found out this was the final 12! God help us! I can’t work out what was worse, the judges or the contestants. Stan Walker sounds like a street kid, Willie Moon is a complete tosser who appears to be infatuated with himself and the other two were some kind of bad joke. I can’t believe anybody takes this dross seriously. Thank god for mysky.
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March 16, 2015 8:47am
EAD

The mask inadvertently slips:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/67407139/central-city-living-campaign-ignores-diversity

When asked about a poster that depicted only European people living/working in a new central Christchurch, a local Councillor replies:

“That is not what our city is GOING TO look like”

So is government, both local and national, making plans to socially engineer our country even further away from it’s present ethnic mix?

I wonder why they are doing this when a recently released report admits “ethnic diversity can increase social distrust, crime and lead to discrimination, division and, ultimately, unrest”. See http://truebluenz.com/2015/03/15/the-auckland-report-finally-released-what-they-didnt-want-you-to-know/

Why would our elected officials, of all party denominations knowingly do something that they admit adversely affects the local population? At best, this means government is not acting in its citizens best interests, at worst, is partaking in some kind of conspiracy to turn a settled, stable, safe and trusting mono/bi-cultural society into a tribal society where people are judged and treated not on who they are, but what group they belong to?

As the report admits, what does this mean for the future of our democratic institutions and country in general?
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March 16, 2015 8:48am
UglyTruth

The argument that Ugly Truth offers, and accepted by Stephie Boy, [comments at the top here] is that a new USA administration can not announce an intended change of policy from the previous administration.

English not your first language, LB?
It was a cut and paste of commentary from Salon.
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March 16, 2015 8:51am
Elaycee

@Tarquin North: Recommend a shot of your favourite tipple to remove the awful taste from your palate.

Then lie down for an hour – that should help. 😀
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March 16, 2015 8:52am
Inandout

stephieboy: So Netanyahu is trailing in the polls. This aspect of democracy must seem alien to the other Middle East countries, who typically pick their leaders by beheading the opposition. Israel is a beacon of sanity in a despotic and cruel region.
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March 16, 2015 8:53am
SGA

On the topic of “reality” TV – I see on Stuff that that the host of NZ’s “The Bachelor” is a regular presenter on The Shopping Channel. It seemed perversely appropriate.
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March 16, 2015 9:00am
Elaycee

@SGA (8.44am): What?!? You mean you aren’t keeping up with X-Voice Idol? Apparently, the dark-haired judge was really, really mean to some guy and then ….

Nah. Not for us, thanks. Our household manages to survive OK without having to watch the dross masquerading as programmes on TV3. I’d sooner watch a rerun (of a rerun) of Top Gear.
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March 16, 2015 9:03am
flipper

Lance (2,847 comments) says:

March 16th, 2015 at 8:33 am

….. “I must add that Q+A has descended into that category…”
***

Absolutely. If I am going to waste an hour of my time, I do not want to spend it listening to “Mrs Soper” and Dann trying to argue with Guy and English.
As for their “panel”….just garbage. Not even an attempt at balance. Sick.

BTW…. is Q + A still funded by NZ “on air” ?
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March 16, 2015 9:04am
lolitasbrother

UglyTruth [ 8.15]

UT quotes me “The argument that Ugly Truth offers, and accepted by Stephie Boy, [comments at the top here] is that a new USA administration can not announce an intended change of policy from the previous administration.”
and says
“English not your first language, LB?
It was a cut and paste of commentary from Salon.”

too true UT, down here we usually communicate with grunts and groans. The neighbours understand me, but my wife got sick of it and left the place.
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March 16, 2015 9:08am
UglyTruth

Israel is a beacon of sanity in a despotic and cruel region.

That is just hilarious.
The Zionist state of Israel has a long history of involvement in acts of terrorism.

Menachem Begin, who was later awarded the Nobel Prize for peace, is the same man who planned the destruction of the King David Hotel and the massacre of Deir Yassin. Ex prime minister, Shamir, was originally a member of the Jewish terrorist gang called Irgun, which was headed by none other than Menachem Begin. Shamir later moved over to the even more radical “Stern Gang,” which committed many vicious atrocities.

http://www.rense.com/general21/pastzionist.htm
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March 16, 2015 9:09am
Odakyu-sen

Ugly, try to focus on the “is” rather than the “was.”
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March 16, 2015 9:16am
Grant

Busy day UT?
G
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March 16, 2015 9:20am
flipper

lolitasbrother (954 comments) says:

March 16th, 2015 at 9:08 am

UglyTruth [ 8.15
*****

Recalling the King David Hotel in 2015????

Stupid.

Some eight years ago I had bet with a relative that Israel would never allow Iran to go nuclear.

Amid all the crap quoted by you from Salon (which does not represent the views of a majority of US voters) , you appear to have missed Netanyahu’s promise to the US Congress – – that Israel would never permit a repeat of the Holocaust. The message was clear, Israel will do to Iran what it did to Iraq. The damage might not be terminal, but it will see out the Obama administration and the ravings of Mr Heinz.

Go get em Benny !
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March 16, 2015 9:20am
Inandout

Ugly Truth: Yes, we all know the beginnings of the State of Israel, but they have made the most of what they have in their tiny nation. The Arab nations that surround them are for the most part religiously controlled hell holes, that apart from allowing oil to be taken from their lands, do little to enhance the Middle East. The hilarious aspect of this discussion is that you regularly snipe at democratic countries, but enjoy all the benefits that democratic freedom brings; in other words you are a leech.
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March 16, 2015 9:20am
iMP

OH-MY-GOSH, the TV3 X-Factor bullying debacle. What a GREAT public story. It has legs. Full gory details, video and links here…

https://conzervative.wordpress.com/2015/03/16/tv3-x-factor-bullying-debacle-march-2015/
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March 16, 2015 9:28am
UglyTruth

The hilarious aspect of this discussion is that you regularly snipe at democratic countries, but enjoy all the benefits that democratic freedom brings; in other words you are a leech.

No, I snipe at the pretentious morons who say that democracy exists in new Zealand.
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March 16, 2015 9:30am
SGA

iMP at 9:28 am

OH-MY-GOSH, the TV3 X-Factor bullying debacle. What a GREAT public story. It has legs. Full gory details, video and links here…

My goodness, you really can’t be that desperate for people to visit your site 🙂
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March 16, 2015 9:33am
Northland Wahine

Sikhs carrying ceremonial swords, kirpan, banned from ICC cricket match. Apparently it’s insulting to be asked to remove it from their bodies…

I sure hope they enjoyed the game in the comfort of their own safe homes dressed with their ceremonial swords.
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March 16, 2015 9:37am
Yvette

Hager is “publishing” more stolen information.
Merde, there must be an election somewhere in the country

Nicky Hager and his pals who are the biggest spies and purveyors of illegally obtained data in New Zealand, not the GCSB.
Hard to argue against.

It’s some of Snowden’s stolen material
Shit, is it that old and that far out of date?
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March 16, 2015 9:37am
IGM

Terrible goings-on in the Middle East, but unless any prospective refugees agree to renounce the Koran and vile customs, they obviously are prepared to live with their lot. The West has had enough of them arriving, taking everything they can get, then wanting more, now also demanding to foist their way of life on host countries . . . no way, go away!
Next time gang members arrive at a league game with their guns and other weaponry, best police leave them alone, the arsenal may have some religious/cultural significance.
Sikhs, go boil your heads, you tried to get out of wearing crash hats in Britain pulling the same stunt . . . it won’t work.
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March 16, 2015 9:37am
Tom Barker

Look who’s back!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/67410871/Donna-Awatere-Huatas-involvement-in-Maori-fisheries-report-may-unnerve-industry

Former ACT MP, convicted fraudster, jailbird and neocon heroine Donna Awatere-Huata. Opportunities are evidently opening up for her under Key’s go-getting government. Is this the next saviour of the ACT Party? Can full rehabilitation and a return to Parliament be far away?
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March 16, 2015 9:38am
Maggy Wassilieff

Just 45mm rain overnight on Kaiti Hill, Gisborne.
Wind starting to get gusty now, but no trees down at my place (yet?).
All very reminiscent of a summer’s day in Wellington.
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March 16, 2015 9:38am
Griff

Ugly know its hard to actually look at realty when you are a nutter.
but
New Zealand is one of the most free country’s on the planet by all known indexes.

Do you have a country you suggest we could learn from to become better at democracy?
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March 16, 2015 9:39am
hj

wat dabney (4,051 comments) says:
March 15th, 2015 at 9:21 am

“The Lump of Labour fallacy is a fallacy.”

Bless

New Zealand’s population has doubled over the last few decades, and all those new people are unemployed aren’t they, hj, because there’s only a fixed number of jobs available.

Oh, wait…
….
Immigration creates it’s own demand
“The Construction Sector is one of the largest sectors in the economy, employing 171,000 people, which is over 7% of the workforce. It generates around $30 billion of gross revenues annually.”
…
“In spite of the sector’s cyclical nature it has been resilient employing 35,880 more workers in 2012 than in 2002
The unprecedented workload from the Christchurch rebuild and from Auckland is driving demand for more skills than ever before
http://www.mbie.govt.nz/what-we-do/business-growth-agenda/sectors-reports-series/construction-report

RBNZ slams the population ponzi – MacroBusiness
http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2014/04/rbnz-slams-the-population-ponzi/
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March 16, 2015 9:41am
Griff

Not much wind and rain from pam.
but the seas are huge.
http://northport.co.nz/weatherfeed
Wave Rider Buoy A

Max Wave: 8.15 m
Average wave (sig): 4.9 m
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March 16, 2015 9:42am
UglyTruth

New Zealand is one of the most free country’s on the planet by all known indexes.

Which is why is isn’t a democracy. Democracy protects the rights of minorities, freedom does not do that.
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March 16, 2015 9:55am
hj

wat dabney (4,051 comments) says:
March 15th, 2015 at 10:41 am

hj,

New Zealand has a sparse population strung out across two islands. Better infrastructure requires a larger population.

So you are putting the cart before the horse when you complain that a higher population requires expenditure on infrastructure. There are economies of scale which even you cannot deny.

The economies of scale and agglomeration are real and powerful, even if they are still in the process of being realised in New Zealand. And the alternative is to become an economic back-water where average salaries are the equivalent of burger-flipping jobs in other, advanced economies.

By all means you take a burger-flipping job on minimum wage, then come back to us and tell us how great it is and how you’ve booked that holiday in Hawaii on your salary.
….
What we are talking about is population and incomes

3 The case for large positive effects

3.4 Scale and agglomeration
3.4.2 Large population increase?

A larger population is
technically feasible; New Zealand has similar land area to countries with much larger
populations (for example, the United Kingdom or Japan). The historical growth of Australia
over the 19th century, or California during the 20th century provide precedents for large
population increases.

However, just because greatly increasing population is feasible does not mean it is a wise
strategy. While there is clear evidence that within countries, large urban agglomerations
70
have higher incomes and productivity, there is no such evidence across countries
(bigger, more densely-populated countries are not richer than smaller countries with more
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scattered populations). The observation that the very highest productivity is found in
large urban areas producing knowledge-based products does not mean all societies can
or should attempt to recreate the San Francisco Bay Area or London. When what is now
the United States rust belt was the global productivity leader, many other regions
improved their wellbeing through industrial development on a less extensive and less
productive scale. Today New Zealand or other productivity “followers” may be able to
materially improve productivity and living standards from current levels without adopting a
large scale agglomeration strategy. Silicon Valley also illustrates the limitations of such
strategies; notwithstanding the presence of Silicon Valley, the State of California has
serious economic and fiscal problems. Similarly, Israel has a thriving innovative hi-tech
sector, similar population, and comparable overall productivity to New Zealand.

To make a judgment on whether a large increase in population is necessary or wise more
information would be required on both costs (including environmental, social, and cultural
costs) and benefits. Two key questions are how large the increase would need to be to
realise the benefits, and to what extent New Zealand’s level of geographic isolation would
continue to act as a brake on performance even with a large population.

http://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/research-policy/wp/2014/14-10
Migration and Macroeconomic
Performance in New Zealand:
Theory and Evidence
Julie Fry
New Zealand Treasury Working Paper 14/10
…
Must be time for the “independant” NZIER to call for a larger population (or a screenee on Jim Moira’s The Panel).
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March 16, 2015 9:56am
Northland Wahine

The so called undemocratic country you live in UT allows you the freedom to snipe at all the morons you like.
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March 16, 2015 9:58am
EAD

If ever your in an argument with a leftie (or a government worshiping rightie of which are now legion) and they bring out the usual glib phrases:

“The social contract”
“Our Leader”
“We need to make the world safe for democracy”
“It’s the law”
“If you don’t vote, you have no right to complain”
“Taxes are the price for a civilised society”
“Who will build the roads?”

Matther Reece provide you with the tools on how you respond:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-03-14/25-statist-propaganda-phrases-and-how-rebut-them

And the article eloquently concludes:

“I realise this may be hard for some simple minds to grasp, but there can be no consent , implicit or otherwise given,where none was ever sought.

As Matthew Reece brilliantly points out in the essay above, consent to rule by violent force is a personal choice and if that choice is not made voluntarily, then it is no choice at all.”

Downtick away Government loving Statist turds!
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March 16, 2015 9:58am
UglyTruth

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Hager is “publishing” more stolen information.

You can’t steal anything without depriving the rightful owner of possession, which didn’t happen here.

Yet another false accusation against Hager from KB’s knuckle draggers…
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March 16, 2015 9:58am
Manolo

Stating the bleedingly obvious: Ugly know its hard to actually look at reality when you are a nutter.
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March 16, 2015 10:01am
Lance

@UT
knuckle draggers?

And UT, I thought you loved us all here at KB, after all you spend a big chunk of your time here.
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March 16, 2015 10:01am
UglyTruth

The so called undemocratic country you live in UT allows you the freedom to snipe at all the Morons you like.

Airhead statism. This country doesn’t have the power to allow or forbid any kind of speech, and the power of the state is not universal.
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March 16, 2015 10:01am
UglyTruth

Stating the bleedingly obvious: Ugly know its hard to actually look at reality when you are a nutter.

As usual Manolo has got nothing to back his slander but his own blindness.
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March 16, 2015 10:04am
hj

hj (7,698 comments) says:
March 15th, 2015 at 8:20 am
SWG Report:
The Government’s role
Clearly, there are serious questions to be asked about New Zealand’s economic policy and how we got into this mess.
..
Serious consideration of the impact of the level and variability of immigration on national saving, and the impact that this might have on the living standards of New Zealanders. There are indications that our high immigration rate has pushed up government spending, house prices and business borrowing.
http://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/reviews-consultation/savingsworkinggroup/pdfs/swg-report-jan11.pdf
……….

Akaroa (758 comments) says:
March 15th, 2015 at 8:39 am
Re hj at 8.20.
hj’s piece starts with the word ‘Clearly’. I therefore paid no mind to what followed.
At an early age I was brought up by a wise old English teacher to treat all articles, pieces, comments, etc., beginning with the word ‘Clearly’ as bogus, unreliable and probably erroneous.
If the meaning is really ‘Clear’ it doesn’t need emphasising.

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2015/03/general_debate_15_march_2015.html/comment-page-1#comment-1493391
….

MASSEY University’s Distinguished Professor Paul Spoonley shows a photograph of his 1969 senior class at Hastings Boys High School.
The immigration and social-cohesion expert says of the students, there are 24 pakeha and one Maori. Hawke’s Bay, like the rest of New Zealand, was not diverse.

“He said he was “deeply disturbed” some saw problems with immigration instead of opportunity.
“But we are not going to stop it – India and China have the two biggest talent pools in the world and we are rightly recruiting from them.”

http://news24h.allnews24h.com/E5XV

And how many Little Spoonleys in academia, journalism, the public service?
The Good Old Boy’s isn’t so flash?
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March 16, 2015 10:09am
Northland Wahine

Stating the obvious doesn’t make anyone an airhead, UT. Thinking your more equal than others reminds me of a story of a certain farm.
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March 16, 2015 10:09am
Griff

Which is why is isn’t a democracy. Democracy protects the rights of minorities, freedom does not do that.

You are an extremely sad case ugly.

We rate highly in all known freedom index.
Including democratic freedom.
http://democracyranking.org/?page_id=831
Personally I would rather we look towards Scandinavia than the fashion to use The usa as a benchmark for our society.

We vote for the government in a freely held democratic election
The majority rule.

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.
Winston Churchill
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March 16, 2015 10:11am
Inandout

iMP: Is that Goth woman really the wife of the Barbie Man Moon? Obviously Moon has copyright on his dress style, but the contestant appeared more of a human form.
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March 16, 2015 10:11am
lolitasbrother

About Data Collection and surveillance : freedom of expression
At Kiwipolitico blog an article called ‘ Civil liberties and Intelligence’. I was discussing words or expressions which may attract attention under the Metadata collection system. I used an example which may attract attention, coarse though it was
:”” Bangbang shoot the Nigger”
Paul Buchanan refused to allow print of the word nigger though I am sure “white mother fucker” would be OK. I purposely chose a redneck expression to exemplify things which may attract attention.
It is Pablo’s blog, so he makes the rules, but I wanted to advance the argument that only if this expression could be linked to intent, would I likely to come under surveillance.

Data collection is a world away from surveillance and it is only the lofty lefty minds that can not see the difference, and bleat on about liberty. I would like to know who made the sickening 1080 scare and lock the sob up,

http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2015/03/on-the-issue-of-balance-between-civil-liberties-and-intelligence-operations/
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March 16, 2015 10:13am
UglyTruth

Stating the obvious doesn’t make anyone an airhead, UT

Just because it’s obvious to you doesn’t mean that it is true. Countries, like states, don’t have universal power over people.

It is your prerogative to enslave yourself to the state. Just don’t assume that everyone is like you are.
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March 16, 2015 10:25am
EAD

@lolitsabrother 10.13am

I would take one step back – ask yourself how on earth we’ve created a society that we need to collect data on all citizens?

You may think with the current administration you’re safe from having your data used against you, but what if the administration changes?

Remember there is a reason they are known as public servants and we are known as private individuals. We should know everything they are doing outside the strictest limits of National Security and they should know nothing about us. Back to my first statement – who created the conditions whereby some people think the State should be able to keep track of us “to keep us safe”?
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March 16, 2015 10:25am
hj

Professor Spoonley still owns property in Hawke’s Bay and considers returning “but given my qualifications there aren’t many jobs that would be available for me here”.
http://news24h.allnews24h.com/E5XV

and lives on Northshore.

A wealth privileged (out of touch) academic who sees the world through psychedelic (diversity) sunglasses.
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March 16, 2015 10:29am
UglyTruth

Including democratic freedom.

Democratic freedom is a contradiction in terms.

We vote for the government in a freely held democratic election

No, voting doesn’t make anything democratic. The system is not democratic because it does not uphold the rule of law, which respects the natural and inalienable rights of the people.

The majority rule.

Mob rule, in other words.
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March 16, 2015 10:31am
hj

‘Lord’ of racism? Critics view trilogy as discriminatory – Too Much Whitey

Human adversaries

In “Towers,” though, which continues to do big at the box office as the second film of the Rings trilogy (the third, “Return of the King,” is to come out at the end of the year), the series’ heroes — hobbits, elves, dwarves and people — for the first time encounter races of human adversaries. They include the Easterlings and Haradrim, denizens of lands in the east and south of Middle Earth who have joined with the forces of evil.

The Easterlings can barely be made out under their armor; their faces are covered except for a narrow slit through which glare pairs of coal-black eyes. But their headgear looks like a cross between a Samurai warrior’s helmet and a cone-shaped “Coolie” hat. An Asian influence is obvious.

The Haradrim are more recognizable. They are garbed in turbans and flowing crimson robes. They ride giant elephants. They resemble nothing other than North African or Middle Eastern tribesmen. A recently released “Towers” companion book, “The Lord of the Rings: Creatures,” calls the Haradrim “exotic outlanders” whose costumes “were inspired by the twelfth-century Saracen warriors of the Middle East.” The Saracens were Islamic soldiers who battled Christian invaders during the Crusades.

The “good guys” include the human Dunedain, Rohirrim and Gondorians. All fair-skinned, mostly blond and mostly blue-eyed. ( A third group of human foes in the film is white: the Wild Men. The fallen wizard Saruman incites them by reminding them the horsemen of Rohan oppress them and have driven them from their lands. Cavalry against native tribes; does this picture seem familiar?)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/chi-030112epringsrace-story.html#page=1

What annoys me is the Hobbiton meme has been used to promote the expoitation of Hobbiton by the Good Old Boys.
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March 16, 2015 10:34am
James Stephenson

Democracy protects the rights of minorities, freedom does not do that.

Sorry, what? You’ve heard of the “tyranny of the majority” haven’t you? Do you think that any of the legislation that the Gays have wanted over the years would have made it past a referendum?
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March 16, 2015 10:36am
stephieboy

Ugly Truth, you might like to outline how and when our ‘illusory ” democracy is personally oppressing and marginalising you ?
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March 16, 2015 10:37am
Griff

No, voting doesn’t make anything democratic.

😆
Insane shit from a dribbling loon.
How else do you define democracy but by the freely held and informed vote of the majority?
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March 16, 2015 10:43am
EAD

I hope the international central banking cabal hang for what they’ve done to the good people of the world:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/11465481/Global-finance-faces-9-trillion-stress-test-as-dollar-soars.html

The good thing is more and more people are waking up to how these psychopaths have captured governments around the world and used them to inflict misery on others. it gives me hope when I see the top rated comment on the Telegraph UK Finance comment is:

“Welcome to the real world, endemic deflation, bankruptcies, unemployment, recessions, depressions and wars are about to start in earnest along with poverty starvation and breakdown.

All because a bunch of evil gangsters decided to get filthy stinking rich by subverting the natural way of things and could be by buy the servicing of cheerleaders like AEP so cheaply to spread their poisonous lies”
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March 16, 2015 10:48am
cha

The gift keeps on giving….

Trita ParsiVerified account ‏@tparsi

Clueless Tom Cotton bemoans Iran controlling Tehran. Guess geography wasnt taught at Harvard Law… #GOPWantsWar

https://twitter.com/tparsi/status/577121738670112768
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March 16, 2015 10:55am
lolitasbrother

EAD at [ 10.25] and myself at [10.13]
About data collection and surveillance . I referred to Kiwipolitico blog; who said we need some balance; between liberty and collection:, and some oversight on this data collection.
My response to oversight is that …really? do you think the spook is going to tell you what he does, on Tuesday.
High Court allowance of limited surveillance will only be used for high profile people. He will sus the situation out first and if it is dangerous, apply for permission, after the work is done.
The spook will not have time to shag around if he thinks a low life mongrel is dangerous.
We can expect collection of all data and why not?

I take your point that if the Nation delivers us a Putin, we are in trouble, but will that happen in Gods own?, EAD , I do not think so.
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March 16, 2015 11:02am
hj

Yet another false accusation against Hager from KB’s knuckle draggers…

Intelligence agencies researcher and journalist Nicky Hager believed last week’s police raids may have been the result of increased police and SIS staffing and resources aimed at anti-terrorism, in the wake of the September 11, 2001, attacks.
“There were a whole lot of new units and equipment and resources brought in for anti-terrorism, where New Zealand hasn’t had an indigenous terrorist threat,” Hager said.
But they have headed down the track of seeing things in those terms and, for example, interpreting radical bravado talk as preparation for murdering people.”

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/38759

This (cold-water) from Hager who only (breathlessly sniffs out a right-wing rat.
………

“As someone quite rightly put it last night….’if not one talks, everyone walks’.

It is not gossip it is fucken serious and some of our comrades are facing a long time behind bars, it would be good if people could remember that.

Now is an important time to remember AND PRACTISE those good old rules about security culture and solidarity!

The media are easy to ignore however the filth is a different story and it is likely that they will want to ‘talk’ to some people. If you are concerned about this and don’t know what your rights are etc… please seek the advise of an experienced activist who you TRUST. Maybe we need to have a workshop around this sometime in the next few days so that everyone is confident.

Love and solidarity!

Please respect the very serious position that the arrests have put some of our very dear friends in.

”
http://newzeal.blogspot.com/2007/12/evidence-of-green-partyanarchist.html
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March 16, 2015 11:04am
EAD

With current demographic trends and policies, do you think “God’s own” will still be “God’s own” in 30 years? What if we end up like Yugoslavia with different tribes competing for power of a population of 10 million?

Nothing is set in stone – take Lebanon (the former Paris of the East) which went from a wealthy prosperous Christian country to a war torn hellhole over the space of 2 generations once it became “multicultural” and the old order was overthrown
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March 16, 2015 11:08am
Ed Snack

Just to bring up Hilary Clinton again, I wonder which of these two options applies:

1. Clinton DID sign the statutorily required release when she left the Sec State job saying that she returned all government owned documents; or

2. Clinton did NOT sign the required declaration.

So is she guilty of perjury (a Clinton specialty), or a felony. It’s one of the two as the delivering the “55,000 pages” of email in December was a clear acknowledgement that those documents were government ones.

Of course such rules only apply to the little people and not to entitled, rich, grandees like Hilary, but if it really is the Obama White House behind the original tip-offs to the NYT and others about the email scandal, who knows what Eric Holder’s successor (Loretta Lynch, BTW) might decide is in the public interest to pursue ?
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March 16, 2015 11:15am
hj

Ugly Truth says
Yet another false accusation against Hager from KB’s knuckle draggers…
….
Hager with a bucket of cold water
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/38759

second link was
http://www.trevorloudon.com/2007/12/evidence-of-green-partyanarchist-urewera-17-links/
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March 16, 2015 11:19am
UglyTruth

“No, voting doesn’t make anything democratic.”

Insane shit from a dribbling loon.
How else do you define democracy but by the freely held and informed vote of the majority?

Fuck, you’re an ignoramus, Griff.

Democracy is a system of rule by laws, not individuals. In a democracy, the rule of law protects the rights of citizens, maintains order, and limits the power of government.
https://web.stanford.edu/~ldiamond/iraq/DemocracyEducation0204.htm
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March 16, 2015 11:23am
hj

@ EAD

In the absence of a robust claim for the primacy of the now enduring Canadian culture of justice, equality, compassion and diversity, with all its warts for all to see, Gad Horowitz’s description of “multiculturalism as masochistic sharing of Canadian nothingness” may not be far off the mark.

http://ujjaldosanjh.org/index.php/entry/multiculturalism-canada-to-he-with-the-new-colonisers

ahh but those fine Saturdays: the festivals, the food: Stephieboy wandering about looking at the diversity (the lack of community cohesion, the babies, the strained welfare system, the lack of wage growth, the black economy, the ethnic nepotism- the fool picture)
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March 16, 2015 11:24am
stephieboy

cha,.thank you for this,

‘Clueless Tom Cotton bemoans Iran controlling Tehran. Guess geography wasnt taught at Harvard Law…”

#GOP WantsWar

Ed Snack coiled you update us on your Birther status plus the GOP’s war plans for the Middle East ?
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March 16, 2015 11:29am
hj

lolitasbrother (961 comments) says:
March 16th, 2015 at 11:23 am

hj [1104] and EAD [11.08] Don’t be strays, men . This is a good country.
……
but my angle is immigration policy
John Key claims people coming here is proof that it is; my point is that people coming here will change (is changing ) that for the worst.
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March 16, 2015 11:32am
Manolo

Would you sign, please? Please, please. http://apnews.myway.com/article/20150315/us–united_states-iran-1fbac2e170.html

AUSANNE, Switzerland (AP) — The United States and Iran plunged back into negotiation Sunday, hoping to end once and for all a decades-long standoff that has raised the specter of an Iranian nuclear arsenal, a new atomic arms race in the Middle East and even a U.S. or Israeli military intervention. Two weeks out from a deadline for a framework accord, some officials said the awesomeness of the diplomatic task meant negotiators would likely settle for an announcement that they’ve made enough progress to justify further talks.

More talks!
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March 16, 2015 11:33am
Manolo

Meanwhile the Messiah celebrates: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/235735-as-nuke-talks-intensify-wh-celebrates-iranian-holiday

The White House this week celebrated Nowruz, the Persian New Year most often observed by Iranians.

The festivities come amid tense negotiations between the White House and Tehran. President Obama hopes Iran will slow or stop its nuclear weapons program in exchange for removing economic sanctions.

He is a strong multiculturalist as our own stephieboy, isn’t he?
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March 16, 2015 11:36am
Griff

😆
You are a nutter ugly wugly
You ignored the definition of democrcy instead posted an abridged version of the passage under
8. What is the Rule of Law?
Laws and Procedures Apply Fairly and Equally to All Citizens
your link
https://web.stanford.edu/~ldiamond/iraq/DemocracyEducation0204.htm
Defines democracy as
Government authority flows from the people and is based upon their consent.

Democracy is a system of government in which a country’s political leaders are chosen by the people in regular, free, and fair elections. In a democracy, people have a choice between different candidates and parties who want the power to govern. The people can criticize and replace their elected leaders and representatives if they do not perform well. The people are sovereign—they are the highest authority—and government is based on the will of the people. Elected representatives at the national and local levels must listen to the people and be responsive to their needs.
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March 16, 2015 11:43am
Albert_Ross

I don’t like to find myself on the same side of debate as Ugly; but would suggest you could not ask for a better illustration of the difference between democracy and freedom than the case of the kauri tree and in particular the DomPost’s delighted welcoming of the outcome as “People power worked”.
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March 16, 2015 11:52am
stephieboy

Manolo (15,161 comments) says:
March 16th, 2015 at 11:36 am

“He is a strong multiculturalist as our own stephieboy, isn’t he?”

Certain irony there Manolo coming from a “darkie” such as yourself ?
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March 16, 2015 11:55am
Fletch

Ugly Truth, as I said yesterday, what is worse? – The GOP reminding both Iran and the Administration of the need to constitutionally ratify any such treaty, or a United States Senator going behind the back of the president by sending an ambassador to Iran to tell its leaders not to sign a treaty until later when conditions are more favorable? That is exactly what Barack Hussein Obama did in 2008.

in 2008, a Democratic senator sent a personal emissary to Tehran encouraging the mullahs not to sign an agreement with the outgoing Bush Administration as negotiations would take on a much friendlier tone following President Bush’s departure from office.

That senator was a presidential candidate at the time. His name was Barack Obama.

http://allenwestrepublic.com/2015/03/15/senator-obamas-2008-message-to-iran-undermines-condemnation-of-47-senators/

So yes – Obama meddled in United States foreign policy when he was a Senator, going behind Bush’s back and sending an ambassador telling the Mullahs not to sign the deal the U.S was currently offering. That is MANY times worse than writing an open letter to Iran.
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March 16, 2015 12:07pm
Fletch

An AP report shows the possible scope of identity theft in the United States. According to records, 6.5 million people in the United States have reached the age of 112. Of course, this is simply not true.

WASHINGTON (AP) — Americans are getting older, but not this old: Social Security records show that 6.5 million people in the U.S. have reached the ripe old age of 112.

In reality, only few could possibly be alive. As of last fall, there were only 42 people known to be that old in the entire world.

But Social Security does not have death records for millions of these people, with the oldest born in 1869, according to a report by the agency’s inspector general.

Only 13 of the people are still getting Social Security benefits, the report said. But for others, their Social Security numbers are still active, so a number could be used to report wages, open bank accounts, obtain credit cards or claim fraudulent tax refunds.

http://www.businessinsider.com/social-security-records-claim-that-over-6-million-americans-have-reached-the-ripe-old-age-of-112-2015-3#ixzz3UV1DlI2G
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March 16, 2015 12:17pm
UglyTruth

You are a nutter ugly wugly

Fuck you are a dick, Griff. Your version of democracy is no different to mobocracy.

mobocracy
mɒbˈɒkrəsi/
noun
noun: mobocracy; plural noun: mobocracies

rule or domination by the masses.
“the court will never permit mobocracy to overwhelm the law of the land”

To be clear, democracy in the NZ context derives from English democracy in which the rule of law is upheld by convention, eg the Magna Carta. Civil systems tend to marginalize the natural rights which are protected by the rule of law in favour of human rights and international law.

Sir Edward Coke and the Development of the Rule of Law
Written by: David Chan Smith

David Chan Smith, the author of Sir Edward Coke and the Reformation of the Laws, traces the way one lawyer and judge shaped modern law, and how Coke’s legacy plays a part in the crises of modern democracy.

…

How then to bolster confidence in the legal system? For Coke this required wholesale reform and especially the establishment of the common law as a superior jurisdiction to oversee legal authority throughout the kingdom. This also meant the search for fundamental principles that undergirded all good law. These principles could be used to clarify disputed points of law. Similarly, Coke’s insistence on due process encouraged people to see the law as a rational, orderly system rather than an arbitrary command.

http://www.cambridgeblog.org/2015/01/sir-edward-coke/
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March 16, 2015 12:34pm
cricko

One of the fundamentals of international negotiating is that both parties need to believe that the
deadline is for real. And when one party is adopting the ‘Russian’ style of negotiating (as Iran is)
no progress will be made untill just hours before that deadline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Can_Negotiate_Anything

Obama and Kerry are no match for the Iranians because the Iranians know that they (Obama @ Kerry)
are the ones desperate for a deal.

Hence the only possible outcomes are A. A bad deal for the USA and the free world. B. No deal at all,
or, most likely, C. A deal where they agree to extend negotiating to a new, even more bullshit deadline.
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March 16, 2015 12:42pm
Manolo

Certain irony there Manolo coming from a “darkie” such as yourself ?

Proud to be a darkie, proud not to be a politically-correct imbecile.
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March 16, 2015 12:44pm
cricko

Obama and Kerry trying to negotiate a deal with Iran whereby Iran will abandon its ambition for a nuke
is the classic example of boys trying to do a mans job.

Either Herb Cohen or Donald Trump may have been capable….

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump:_The_Art_of_the_Deal

Obama and Kerry have no chance.

The Iranians noted how a weak Obama laid down a ‘Red Line” (Should have been called a “Yellow Line’)
to Assad in Syria and watched as Assad pissed on it and Obama caved.
The Iranians know they are dealing with a weakling again.
Jimmy Carter all over again. The Iranians released their American hostages the Day after Reagan beat Carter, they are not stupid.
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March 16, 2015 1:12pm
chiz

It was bound to happen: Iran offers to mediate talks between Republicans and Obama:

[Khamanei] said that his nation was the “logical choice” to jumpstart negotiations between Obama and the Republicans because “it has become clear that both sides currently talk more to Iran than to each other.”
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March 16, 2015 1:20pm
chiz

Hillary releases 20000 spam emails:

“This is one of the main reasons I set up a private e-mail account,” she said. “I did not want spam […] clogging up the State Department servers.”
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March 16, 2015 1:23pm
stephieboy

criko, you and the GOP itching for another 2003 in the Middle East ?

Ugly truth after your obtuse item of Jurisprudence or whatever can you outline in what specific ways our NZ ‘s “democracy” is oppressing you ?
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March 16, 2015 1:26pm
Fletch

re: Hillary, the State Dept, and emails – only a small percentage are being saved. I guess they don’t like transparency after all.

WASHINGTON (CNN) —The State Department’s government watchdog has released a review of its email record-keeping practices and concluded that the vast majority of emails sent by State personnel are not being preserved, possibly in violation of the Federal Records Act.

Out of the billion emails sent by personnel in 2011, the Office of the Inspector General found that only a minuscule fraction — 61,156 — were actually recorded within employees’ official email accounts. That number dropped to 41,749 in 2013.

This information comes amid controversy over former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s use of a personal email account while in office, which brought renewed attention to the State Department’s record keeping policies — policies which rely on employees’ self-reporting.
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March 16, 2015 1:34pm
stephieboy

Fletch,
“
Never ones to miss an opportunity to score political points, multiple Republicans have latched on to the recent email controversy in an attempt to hold themselves up as paragons of transparency. In reality, their stable of 2016 hopefuls — Jeb Bush and Scott Walker chief among them — have some serious explaining to do for their questionable email practices. Jeb Bush — who also owns his email server — has released just 10 percent of his emails, which is why we’re calling on him to come clean, release the rest of his emails, and hold himself to the same standard he’s using for cheap political gain. And if that’s not hypocritical enough for you, try Scott Walker talking a big game about email transparency, when his own staff set up an in-office, private email network for political activity.
Check out the past week in GOP email hypocrisy below:

……………….”

http://capitalsoup.com/2015/03/10/icymi-among-gop-2016ers-rampant-hypocrisy-on-email-transparency-issues/
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March 16, 2015 1:45pm
Ed Snack

Oh dear Stephieboy, still going on about that rumour that Clinton started about Obama’s birth ? But just maybe Harvard Law DON’T do geography, as I recall another alumni of Harvard thought there were 57 States in the USA, but I don’t recall you bagging him on it. He was also convinced that the Viennese (amongst others) spoke Austrian, yes, maybe geography is not Harvard’s strength.

Of course Cotton simply misspoke, he meant Baghdad, the other fellow was simply clueless eh ? And Cotton’s right oo, in that letter, isn’t he ? If Obama signs an “Executive Agreement” and either doesn’t try or fails to get it ratified by Congress, then it can be reversed in a simple executive decision., and it behooves The Iranians and Obama to remember that. Other presidents have made “executive Agreements”, GW Bush included, but they either did get those agreements ratified by Congress, or they able to be reversed as well. Simple constitutional law, but I guess you couldn’t expect that’s a bit beyond Obama’s pay grade…hey maybe he can learn about the Iran agreement from the Newspapers, he does have form for that.
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March 16, 2015 1:59pm
stephieboy

Ed Snack , and of course your naturally a sucker to believe the Clinton rumour ?

And you all on side with the GOP post 2016 elections to wage war in the Middle East ?
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March 16, 2015 2:12pm
Lance

@UT
Umm
Maybe you didn’t get the memo?

But if a party (or coalition) gets the majority of votes they are the government.
The govt can change the law
The govt is answerable to the majority of voters

If you are in the minority… tough shit. You rely on the goodwill of the majority
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March 16, 2015 2:31pm
cha

who knows what Eric Holder’s successor (Loretta Lynch, BTW) might decide is in the public interest to pursue ?

I reckon the GOP wants AG Holder to stick around.

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/03/loretta-lynch-attorney-general-nomination-116092.html
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March 16, 2015 2:35pm
cricko

stephieboi @ 1.25

No.

But I can see the threat to the world of fundamentalist muslims having access to nuclear weapons.

You are a very silly billy stephieboi when you equate the argument against a nuclear armed Iran
with a call to wage war in the middle east.

A very confused, unworldly, naive and silly boi.

(But with luck, you will change your opinion as you get a bit older, as most kids who harbour your type
of outlook do.)
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March 16, 2015 2:39pm
cha

the need to constitutionally ratify any such treaty,

One day.

Zeddonymous ‏@ZeddRebel

FYI: Congress didn’t ratify peace with Japan until 1952. 1945 Surrender on the USS Missouri entirely a deal between heads of state.

https://twitter.com/ZeddRebel/status/575350839570788352
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March 16, 2015 2:44pm
Manolo

This question is being asked for the third time:
@stephieboy: Are you or are you not an admirer of Helen Clark? A yes or no answer, please.
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March 16, 2015 2:44pm
Ed Snack

Stephieboy, actually, I rather disbelieve just about everything that Hilary says. There’s no point in explaining my POV again as you’re obviously too thick to understand, but just for the record, I have never believed the “not born in Hawaii” meme but I do reckon it was not absolutely conclusively demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt until 2012 and the release of the “long-form” birth certificate. And I’ve always thought that it was a small but rather cunning little plan that had the Obama campaign refuse to release the long-form certificate as prospect of invalidating his election did smoke a lot of wierdo’s out of the woodwork and allowed the Obamabots to smear a lot of people with some fake associations with the rumour. In the end though all it did was bring down Donald Trump, and he was never going to get the nomination, so clever, but pointless unless you really like the “gotcha” game. I am surprised that given your support for Hilary that you don’t follow her on that particular item though.

I see you also like to repeat the Democratic Party’s talking points about the GOP, wouldn’t it be nice to be a bit nuanced about it for a change ? At the moment, I’d say that, effective or not, Cotton and the other GOP senators are trying to prevent Obama selling out to Iran leaving them with the means and intention of developing nuclear weapons. I think a competent President would be able to bring a majority of Senators along with any reasonable deal, why does Obama refuse to even discuss the progress with the Senate, and he didn’t try to bring them along when Harry Reid was in charge either. Knowing that senate approval is need for any agreement to be binding why not try, and if you want to trot out the “GOP will just automatically oppose anything” line that the Democrats have been running for years (and a reasonably clever propaganda approach but one almost guaranteed to demonstrate bad faith), why didn’t he try when Reid was in charge ?
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March 16, 2015 2:49pm
cricko

Manolo.

Of course he is. He is the No 1 in Helens admiriati. (after all, she was the first PM of NZ he remembers.)
But he will never admit it because he knows that then he has to try and defend the indefensible.

Even stephieboi is not that stupid.
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March 16, 2015 2:51pm
UglyTruth

But if a party (or coalition) gets the majority of votes they are the government.

No, majorities are not necessarily governments. The authority of government rests on the right to govern, and that right does not derive from popular opinion.

The govt can change the law

Only as far as it is authorized to. A government can’t change the law of people who is has no legal relationship with.

The govt is answerable to the majority of voters

That’s the fiction that the NZ state sells to the public. The state says that is is sovereign because it is accountable, but a true sovereign is not accountable.

If you are in the minority… tough shit. You rely on the goodwill of the majority

Not in a real democracy which honours the rule of law.
A majority of criminals is a conspiracy, it can never make law.

You want to live in a mobocracy? Fine, just don’t expect a ounce of compassion when your world turns to shit.
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March 16, 2015 3:22pm
stephieboy

Ed Snack,

Why do people like you believe in such weird stuff ?

“It’s important that we, the few, the proud, the reality-based, attack this stuff before it has a chance to fester and spread. This is not a case of Democrats versus Republicans. It’s sentient beings versus the lizard people.” –Bill Maher, on birtherism
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March 16, 2015 3:23pm
Nostradamus

UglyTruth:

Democracy is a system of rule by laws, not individuals. In a democracy, the rule of law protects the rights of citizens, maintains order, and limits the power of government.

Can you name a country – just one example will do – that practices “democracy” consistently with your suggested definition?

Griff asked you this question earlier, and I’m interested in your answer.
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March 16, 2015 3:29pm
stephieboy

Ugly Truth,

document how our present political arrangements infringes your rights as a citizen ?
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March 16, 2015 3:41pm
UglyTruth

Can you name a country – just one example will do – that practices “democracy” consistently with your suggested definition?

England.
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March 16, 2015 3:54pm

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Top 14 Predictions for Round 10
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The Accidental Engagement
Imperator Fish
Legal Beagle: Election '23: The Special Votes
Public Address
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Kiwi FireWalker
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Dan Moskovitz