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March 15, 2015 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 15 March 2015

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General Debate

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Rachael Membery

What is the worst crime to commit, in this ‘enlightened day and age? Murder, rape, paedophilia, grievous bodily harm? I am not sure about the manslaughter distinction, it sounds a bit ‘fluffy’, but I do believe in ‘intent’.

From that list it would seem that murder is still at the top of the list.
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March 15, 2015 8:01pm
Left Right and Centre

Does Janiker Ter Ellen have one of the worst young white woman offputting kiwi accents of all newsreaders and news reporters ?

Simultaneous chainsaw throat growl and bagpipes being strangled nasal sneezing fit. I can’t take it – auto mute reaction.

It’s weird – I actually like her herself but not the accent.
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March 15, 2015 8:12pm
Oliver Twist

Truth is out of business.

Bain is out of luck.

Bunnie is out.
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March 15, 2015 8:15pm
Kanz

More fun yet to come. Once Bain has gotten his compensation claim settled, and has been judged once again innocent, woebetide those who have been calling him a murderer. Defamation proceedings don’t need to be laid for two years after publication of the defamation. I do hear that a certain book is being considered for just such an action.
Let’s hope the book is selling as well as the writer is telling us, the damages should be considerable.
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March 15, 2015 8:20pm
Nostalgia-NZ

Well you’re the lawyer Rachael, even though any advice you gave Kent seemed not to help, we should value your measured and erudite opinions particularly before you have a little tippler. I suggest you argue your point with DPF, it’s his blog, you, like all of us. are are his guests here. That is recorded in writing. You seem to be like your mate and think you can go round crapping all over the place much like a freedom camper. Today the ‘author’ repeated a suppressed name and had his or her email address here to bludge the opportunity to sell his or her ‘book.’ Bloody cheek. Lets look back at who your little group got sued, Fairfax, the Herald, Trade Me, anyone else I missed out? Oh yes Counterspin, kent and Vic. Quite a bit of freedom camping there.
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March 15, 2015 8:20pm
Nostradamus

Penny Bright:

Tomorrow, Monday 16 March 2015, after confirming with the NZ Electoral Commission the correct ‘due process’ to follow, it is my intention to make a formal complaint against National’s Northland candidate Mark Osborne for alleged ‘BRIBERY’ under the Electoral Act 1993, s.216 (2).

Section 216(2) states:

Every person commits the offence of bribery who, directly or indirectly, by himself or herself or by any other person on his or her behalf—

(a) gives any money or procures any office to or for any voter, or to or for any other person on behalf of any voter, or to or for any other person, in order to induce any voter to vote or refrain from voting; or
(b) corruptly does any such act as aforesaid on account of any voter having voted or refrained from voting; or
(c) makes any such gift or procurement as aforesaid to or for any person in order to induce that person to procure, or endeavour to procure, the return of any person or candidates at an election or the vote of any voter,—

or who, upon or in consequence of any such gift or procurement as aforesaid, procures, or engages, promises, or endeavours to procure, the return of any person or candidates at any election or the vote of any voter.

My view (as a lawyer) for what it’s worth:

– The usual way to interpret legislation – here section 216(2) – is to look at the text, context and purpose.

– Looking at the text of section 216(2), it requires a relevant connection between “a person” and “a voter” (or a person who is relevantly associated with a voter).

– Looking at the context and purpose of section 216(2), there’s a good argument that pork barrel politics – informally known as bribing voters with their own money – isn’t an offence under section 216(2). Otherwise, if section 216(2) were to be interpreted too broadly, we couldn’t have elections at all.

– Therefore, unless Penny Bright has evidence that Mark Osborne has gone beyond the usual pork barrel politics that we’ve become accustomed to, her complaint will go nowhere.
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March 15, 2015 8:21pm
Kanz

Oliver Twist (243 comments) says:
March 15th, 2015 at 8:15 pm

You wish.
Binnie is still a well respected, on the world stage, Jurist.
Collins on the other hand is a washed up back bench parliamentarian.
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March 15, 2015 8:23pm
Left Right and Centre

Odakyu-sen how do you go to night school when you’re at work of an evening ? Fast food – ‘flexibility’ – which means giving a job to those who can bend over the fastest and take it all the easiest.

It’s a big debate – let’s not oversimplify it with ‘just go to night school man’ and ‘you can learn to make a better burger’. I know what you’re saying but yeah.

(That’s not the answer, is it ? Not every fast food worker is going to do that, are they ? They’re not all going to literally learn the industry and then open their own related business – how many fast food workers are there ? A lot. Obviously the market isn’t big enough for all of them to start a food business. And even then it takes start-up money etc.)
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March 15, 2015 8:24pm
Psycho Milt

For example, and completely hypothetical, so not referring to anyone in particular: “I accuse the paperboy with the rifle in the computer alcove”?

A number of 1000+ threads endorse the acceptability of this example.
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March 15, 2015 8:29pm
Nookin

DPF

You come close with your edict. If someone wishes to label Bain as a murderer then there are two possible defences to a defamation action. The first is “truth” which, in the context, would be a logistical nightmare for the defendant ( being the person responsible for establishing the truth).

The second defence is “honest opinion”. The essentials of the defence are
1. The statement must be a statement of opinion and not an assertion of fact. The statement “Bain killed his family” or “bain is a murderer” is not a statement of opinion but is a statement of fact.
2. The statement must be accompanied by those facts on which the statement maker relies. The idea is that people reading the opinion can assess the validity of the opinion and make his/her own assessment.
3. The facts must be shown to be true or substantially true.
4. The person must honetly believe in the opinion expressed.
Kent Parker tripped up because he didnt fit the criteria, in some instances falling flat on his face.

I imagine that there are those who genuinely and honestly believe that David did it. They may well have read widely and come to a considered and principled conclusion. There are obviously those who take a different view.

Sadly, this and every Bain thread is dominated by the ill-considered, shoot-from-the-hip generalised assertion of fact — often made with spiteful undertones — and which are the antithesis of honest opinion.

This isnt debate. This is a prolonged bout of two groups taking it in turns to belt each other round the head with a dead fish. The only outcome will come about if DPF follows the Monty Python approach, digs out a decent sized kingfish and clouts the whole bloody lot of them off the side of the wharf — to the resounding applause and eternal appreciation of long-suffering GD followers who have had more than enough.
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March 15, 2015 8:31pm
Fletch

The first decent length trailer for the new Thunderbirds series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y2hFqgtjLk

Yeh, it’s CGI, but they’ve tried to keep the look of the old series.
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March 15, 2015 8:39pm
Rachael Membery

It is a lie to call me a lawyer. Two in two nights, good going.
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March 15, 2015 8:40pm
Left Right and Centre

Sir John Kirwan. 0 and 5 brother. But you can still make the play-offs. And have home advantage.

Comic book guy says : ‘Worst start to a Blues season – ever‘. Three more losses will ‘better’ the record of seven in a row.

At least he won’t tell them anything like ‘harden up man’ – hardening up is not the answer. What does he do ? Sit them all down in a chair circle to pour out their feelings of despair that they’re a disgraceful bunch of mediocre payroll fillers ?

And it’s one of those laughably horrendous things that keeps on getting worse and worse – if you were fuckin 0 and 5 – would you be happy about HQ rules that force you to rest about four players, who may or not be required for AB duty, in an upcoming away game against the defending champion Waratahs ? Hello ?? Can you say 0 and 6 ?

All the others look good so far – so one or two very good NZ teams are going to miss out somewhere at the end despite champagne game play.
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March 15, 2015 8:41pm
Nookin

Nostradamus

Difficult to see a promise to build a bridge as a gift of money to any person or the procurement of any office. Penny might have troubles with the word “corruptly” also — not that this ever really troubles her when applying the term to the National Party.
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March 15, 2015 8:47pm
Nostradamus

Nookin:

Great comment at 8:31pm.

Here’s another perspective:

It is now public knowledge the Government paid actor John Yelash $55,000 in a confidential settlement, which included an apology by Helen Clark for calling him a murderer when he was convicted of manslaughter.

Now, yes, I can see a possible relevant distinction between the Yelash and Bain cases. Yelash had a criminal conviction – Clark incorrectly described it as a murder conviction. Bain, by contrast, argues that he’s innocent.

So, overall, I think DPF was correct when he wrote:

[DPF: Don’t refer to David Bain as a murderer as he has been found not guilty. You can express views on whether he or Robin was more likely to have been the killer, but you can not call him a murderer which is a legal term, and false

The problem for DPF is that this distinction (between saying that someone is a murderer and saying that someone is likely to have committed murder) is usually lost in the heat of debate.
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March 15, 2015 8:53pm
Rachael Membery

Kanz (1,632 comments) says:

March 15th, 2015 at 8:23 pm

Yet it is one of ‘our’ jurists that has been called to England to preside over matters.
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March 15, 2015 8:56pm
Oliver Twist

ATTORNEY: Doctor, before you performed the autopsy, did you check for a pulse?
WITNESS: No.
ATTORNEY: Did you check for blood pressure?
WITNESS: No.
ATTORNEY: Did you check for breathing?
WITNESS: No..
ATTORNEY: So, then it is possible that the patient was alive when you began the autopsy?
WITNESS: No.
ATTORNEY: How can you be so sure, Doctor?
WITNESS: Because his brain was sitting on my desk in a jar.
ATTORNEY: I see, but could the patient have still been alive, nevertheless?
WITNESS: Yes, it is possible that he could have been alive and practicing law.
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March 15, 2015 9:02pm
cricko

Speaking about the cry wolf syndrome regarding weather calamaties.

As far as Auckland is concerned the time predicted when we all should batten down
the hatches for the latest big blow has now been and passed.

Current conditions,,, light drizzle, gentle 1-5 kmph drift.

Frick, even Ken Ring, reading the moon phases would be more accurate than what we have now.

The weather gurus need to err on the side of caution but continualy predicting doom and getting it so wrong
every time is now wearing thin.
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March 15, 2015 9:10pm
Sponge

Nookin @ 8:31

“Bain killed his family”

While you are correct I don’t think there is any doubt that “a” Bain killed his family.

Really, as someone noted above, no one will ever know apart from David and even he may not know.

Quite why people here try to convince people with diametrically opposed views, who will never be convinced even by a confession, mystifies me.
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March 15, 2015 9:18pm
Nookin

The Yelash case demonstrates the boundaries of honest opinion. Clarke made an assertion of fact. It was wrong. End of story. There was no expression of opinion and no true fact upon which any opinion could be based.
Milton Weir took Karam to Court over allegations, expressed in Karam’s book, to the effect that the police planted evidence and Weir committed perjury. The allegations were factually incorrect but Weir’s case tripped up in the face of Karam’s honest opinion, formed after considering the facts outlined in his book.
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March 15, 2015 9:20pm
Oliver Twist

ATTORNEY: Do you recall the time that you examined the body?
WITNESS: The autopsy started around 8:30 PM
ATTORNEY: And Mr. Denton was dead at the time?
WITNESS: If not, he was by the time I finished.
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March 15, 2015 9:25pm
Rowan

Looks like Michael is having an extended session with his goat! Michael, come out, come out wherever you are!
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March 15, 2015 9:27pm
Rowan

Nookin
A major difference in the outcome of Karams defamation win, against the two counterspin loons and the case you referred to where Weir and Anderson brought defamation proceedings against Karam and failed, over the contents in David and Goliath is truth, Karams book was deemed to be truthful or “not markedly different from” whereas Kent witch hunt had no basis in fact and was just a malicious trial by media campaign by some deluded stupid men who thought they knew better than the law. The original claims by Weir were idiotic as the book never even claimed what he alleged so he like Kent lost because he didn’t have the truth on his side, the winner at the end of the day is the truth just as it will be in the compensation claim.
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March 15, 2015 9:36pm
Rachael Membery

Broader issues regarding the Justice system are at play in my opinion. Manipulations to suit individual agendas. I have often thought that it stopped being about David Bain a long time ago, but when you think of the ‘social’ commentators arguing about the availability of compensation, I think the discussion is necessary and there are not many platforms available where other sides can be heard, because the noise from those in favour is clamorous.

Should everyone that has seen the inside of a prison be allowed to manipulate the system after they are released, because the system found them guilty? We can not be talking about David Bain, David Bain doesn’t make these utterances. I have issue with some of those that make utterances ‘on his behalf’. People who have not been acquitted, murderers that are trying to manipulate the system that is designed to protect the majority of law abiding citizens. I am sure that there is a kind of cronyism. Actually I know there is, Traynor’s accomplice is a good example.

Just recently the media has highlighted some of the ex prisoners who now walk amongst us. I do not want to hear about them, I do not want to see them on tv and I do not want to read their opinions. I think the worst of them should be shunned, not quoted.
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March 15, 2015 9:49pm
Viking2

Simple Simon aids the trough users.

A proposal to nearly double the international travel allowance of former MPs has been “slipped in under the radar” according to legal blogger Graeme Edgeler.

Parliament is about to consider boosting the perk for those who were MPs before 1999 by around 80 per cent.

Under the Members of Parliament (Remuneration and Services) Act 2013, the perk is set at around $11,000 a year but National MP and transport minister Simon Bridges wants to increase it to around $20,000 per year.The amendment could be voted on as early as Tuesday and could pass its final reading on Thursday.

Edgeler said the amendment was introduced on Thursday and arrived with little fanfare – and no press release making it impossible for anyone to submit on.

The amendment is going through under the Statutes Amendment Bill and is designed to correct a mistake that saw Air New Zealand inadvertently omitted from the
more;
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/67387751/former-mps-travel-perk-to-get-a-boost
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March 15, 2015 9:50pm
SPC

The real question is not how it is assessed but whether there should be a travel subsidy perk for former MP’s.

http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/2015/03/earning-that-reputation-xv.html
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March 15, 2015 9:57pm
Nookin

As I pointed out, Rowan, karam was within the parameters. Parker was not. Being stupid and deluded is not a crterion.
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March 15, 2015 9:58pm
Left Right and Centre

TV listing was wrong by ten mins. So I endured a few mins of X Fucktor. Weird names. Weird people. They are all dreadful. All of them. Who are these people ? Who watches shit like that ? Rubbish TV for the braindead.

And people talk about old fashion and trends from previous decades and how bad they were. This is bad. You want to see bad ? Zero IQ untrained minimal talent know nothing young muppets with a total lack of self-awareness as to how shit they are is bad.

It’s frightening just how many morons there are out there who would actually watch shit like this. Untold numbers of gibbering morons. Must be a lot of them or this crap wouldn’t be on TV. Depressing numbers.
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March 15, 2015 9:59pm
SPC

Also received by former MP’s is Super.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/latest-edition/34339/New-MP-super-scheme-just-as-generous
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March 15, 2015 10:01pm
SPC

Former MP’s have effectively unionised/organised to defend their travel subsidy.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10590145
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March 15, 2015 10:09pm
Rachael Membery

SPC (6,199 comments) says:

March 15th, 2015 at 10:01 pm

Isn’t it weird that this comes up at the same time as the PM is effectively capping current MP’S remuneration.
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March 15, 2015 10:13pm
SPC

Housing subsidy and subsidy of travel by the partner of an MP.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11281830
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March 15, 2015 10:14pm
Nostradamus

Left Right and Centre:

TV listing was wrong by ten mins. So I endured a few mins of X Fucktor.
…
It’s frightening just how many morons there are out there who would actually watch shit like this.

Here’s an interesting four-step process for you to follow:

1. Click here to go to the NZ on Air website.
2. Note that my link is to a page entitled “NZ On Air funded television programmes screening in the next week”.
3. Note that one of the television programmes listed under 15 March 2015 is The X Factor NZ.
4. Note further that one of the television programmes listed under 14 March 2015 is The X Factor NZ (R).

Small mercies for the NZ taxpayer – the “(R)” means repeat – so at least we get to see dumbed-down programming twice for the same knockdown price of $800,000 (source: NZ on Air’s arts, culture and performance budget – June 2014 to now).
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March 15, 2015 10:14pm
SPC

Rachael Membery, in this case a coincidence.

It would appear that former MP’s have been lobbying the government over the change in assessment in 2013, that reduced their subsidy, and they have managed to get the government to return to the former method.
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March 15, 2015 10:18pm
Rowan

Nookin
A very good point, neither is the self published author of the latest piece of Bain fiction, it can look forward to its day in court over the breaches of a suppression order and identifying a juror. If I were DPF I wouldn’t want to associate myself with scum like this or allow them to publish bs on my blog!
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March 15, 2015 10:24pm
cricko

Rachael @ 9.49

Good points.

It seems evident that there is a loss of confidence in our justice system.

Maybe our sicko Third Estate has much to do with it.

When you see crap ‘journalists’ like Deidre Mussen @ Stuff writng stories glorifying double
murderers like John Barlow, seeking that piece of shits opinion on our justice system,
and lauding his family life and ‘good works’ he has done in the boob you can start to see
where we are going wrong.

Forget about the victims and their family, get the ‘scoop’ Deidre,

Deidre Mussen is a disgrace and an example of the problem and how fucked up some peoples thinking has become.
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March 15, 2015 10:26pm
Rachael Membery

SPC (6,201 comments) says:

March 15th, 2015 at 10:18 pm

It seemed somewhat ironic.
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March 15, 2015 10:37pm
cricko

And PS to my effort @ 10.26

Mindless idiots like for instance, Rowan, lap that sort shit up.

Rowan thinks whatever his tutor at Waikato Uni tells him to think.
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March 15, 2015 10:41pm
Rowan

Cricko
This goes to show how much you really know, I actually have never been to Waikato University, so how about you get your facts straight!
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March 15, 2015 11:03pm
Rachael Membery

That is a hell of an indictment to put on Waikato Uni. Quite fond of it myself.
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March 15, 2015 11:05pm
Rachael Membery

Yes Cricko lol get YOUR facts straight 😉
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March 15, 2015 11:08pm
Oliver Twist

Rowan. Even those who think reality is a product of legal processes and revealed only to the legally-trained mind will draw an ineluctable conclusion about you.

Thanks.

Thanks also to flipper, Nostalgia, Kanz and xylophilus, for showing us your path.
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March 15, 2015 11:58pm
Manolo

(Greek) Chardonnay socialist to the core: http://www.cnbc.com/id/102505966

Greek Finance Minister, Yanis Varoufakis, is facing a fierce storm of criticism in his own country after he posed for a photo shoot for French lifestyle magazine Paris Match.

“Are you a liability for your channel?,” he asked CNBC’s Chatterley, before saying that he “tried not to be.” The Greek Finance Minister then walked out of the CNBC interview.
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March 16, 2015 6:55am
Nostalgia-NZ

Rachael Membery 10.49 who is manipulating the system? You never say yet you are talking about the Bain case, obsessed by it and manipulation. You have some nutty idea that a person represented by a lawyer should speak rather than the lawyer, driving as always at something you seem to gutless to lay out in words, prepared only to hint at. David Bain is represented by Karam and Reed that’s his lawful right. If you don’t want to watch tv shows that is your prerogative just as it is your prerogative to be part of a web site that spits out lies and got itself sued. You seem very mixed up.
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March 16, 2015 7:12am
Manolo

The religion of peace continues to spread its barbaric message: http://news.yahoo.com/twin-blasts-near-church-wound-27-eastern-pakistan-074230869.html

LAHORE, Pakistan — A pair of suicide bombers attacked two churches in the eastern Pakistani city of Lahore on Sunday as worshippers prayed inside — killing 15 people in the latest assault against religious minorities in this increasingly fractured country, officials said.

A spokesman for the Pakistani Taliban, Ahsanullah Ahsan, claimed responsibility for the assault in a statement emailed to reporters, and warned, “There will be more of such attacks.”
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March 16, 2015 7:22am
Oliver Twist

Nookin March 15th at 8:31 pm. a decent sized kingfish and clouts the whole bloody lot of them off the side of the wharf — to the resounding applause and eternal appreciation of long-suffering GD followers who have had more than enough.

You completely miss the point, but then you’re a lawyer so there is no “point”, only points of law.

You’ve had enough? We’ve all had enough. Why are we in this mess?

Because the legal profession is self-serving, playing games, while the rest of us want truth and justice.

I’ve learned a lot about lawyers during this Bain fiasco. You need reminding the Law is our servant, not our master.

The legal system is completely out of control. Those adopting the ideas of a fair trial did not envisage countless millions disappearing into the pockets of QCs and others to bamboozle simple juries … to get killers like Bain out of jail.

The Daddy-did-it narrative is preposterous. Would take millions of years for anyone to have such a run of bad luck that. If it isn’t bad luck then it must be a conspiracy between Robin and the police. Look at the incontrovertible facts.

Make your mind up about something for once.
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March 16, 2015 8:06am
lolitasbrother

Oliver Twist [8.08] yes, absolutely
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March 16, 2015 11:12am
Rachael Membery

seem to gutless. Too!!

Actually, you and I know exactly who I am referring to. 😉 and it isn’t David Bain lol and that is ‘trying’ to manipulate the system.
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March 16, 2015 12:10pm

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