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February 17, 2015 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 17 February 2015

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Manolo

The religion of peace anyone?
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/02/15/isis-beheads-21-christians-promises-to-conquer-rome-by-allahs-permission/
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February 17, 2015 8:03am
Pete George

In contrast to DPF giving all National’s Northland nominees fair coverage Cameron Slater continues what looks like a dirty smear campoaign against one of the nominees.

Is he being paid to do this? By another nominee? He has history on this.

Or is he still just lashing out and shitty with National generally for not appreciating his political manipuilation genius?

Slater still smearing National Northland contender
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February 17, 2015 8:06am
Oliver Twist

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11403133
UFO in Queenstown photo baffles ex-sceptic

Any suggestions?
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February 17, 2015 8:07am
CHFR

PG 24 000 odd comments here and you come up with this drivel. I have to ask who is paying you to smear Slater. Agree with him or not but please stop coming in here and sliming him.

Seriously man you are starting to look obsessive.
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February 17, 2015 8:08am
oldpark

Have been watching and listening to the guy known as Mike “Sissy” Hoskins on Radio, and a crap TV show known as Seven Sharp. Hoskins seems to be so arrogant on Radio and Television, in fact so far up himself he is coming out his mouth. Talk about self promotion, especially on the Television show,he is boring,boring. Seems his claim to fame,he is a legend in his own mind.
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February 17, 2015 8:08am
nasska

….””I have all the rights in the world while I’m alive but when it comes to me dying my last will and testament is being completely and utterly ignored by the law fraternity, by Parliament, by everybody.””……

The Godwhacks claim another victim. This time a poor old lady dying a cruel death via cancer is being denied a peaceful exit from life. When will these deluded fruitloops be told that the wishes of their imaginary friend should not be imposed on those who don’t subscribe to the crap?

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/why-should-i-slash-my-wrists-cancer-patient-reignites-euthanasia-debate-6236204
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February 17, 2015 8:10am
duggledog

Speaking of rights Nasska, get a load of this:

Some DOC or F & B guy on National Radio yesterday afternoon says they can’t use dogs in their unending quest to eradicate stoats and weasels etc whilst on the ground in the bush because, and I quote, ‘that would be inhumane… and animal rights come into it’ Even though the dogs can easily track and find them.

I shit you not.

So, in spite of the fact stoats and weasels etc are chomping their way through thousands of kiwi eggs, the best we can do is trap the little f***ers and gas them or something. What utterly retarded thinking.

Bye bye kiwis.
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February 17, 2015 8:11am
Harriet

“A Message Signed With Blood To The Nation Of The Cross.”

Fine.

If Barry and co that rule over Western countries don’t now unleash the dogs of war on ISIS – then get ready to all be voted out of office.

A billion or so Catholics is a lot of votes. And then you have the rest of the Christians voting also. Plus the aethists who see that Christians -for the most part- don’t bother the Western way of life.

Appeasment will NOT keep any of you in office!!!
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February 17, 2015 8:12am
nasska

…..”‘that would be inhumane… and animal rights come into it’ “…..

They should run the “rights” issue past the kiwis duggledog. They may have a few rights to continue to live & reproduce too.

Something doesn’t quite add up.
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February 17, 2015 8:18am
stephieboy

Oliver Twist , Vernon Waghorn the guy who photographed the UF0 shouldn’t jump to conclusions too early .The photo ere baffled a lot of people in Auckland until meteorologists identified is as a cloud formation ,

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11390249

But of course this won’t stop UT , Reid and coy immediately concluding that ETs are real or the Nazis indeed must if operated UFOs
bases in the Antartiic and associated junk and bunk.
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February 17, 2015 8:20am
Nostalgia-NZ

ISIS are tactically, militarily and politically making basic mistakes. They are fighting on all fronts, making enemies of other Arab nations, including Muslim nations. If there is anything that an observer can feel some satisfaction about it is that ISIS appears to have done little in the way of proceeding with caution, putting some fights aside for another day, limiting knowledge as to what their real intentions are, looking to gain support among those that might be like minded, moving with stealth to succeed in the least dramatic way to avoid attention and overt hostility were unnecessary. If you want to avoid engaging with a difficult, changing, and challenging opponent and prefer a loose, cowardly idiot – the ISIS is your ‘man.’
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February 17, 2015 8:21am
Inandout

oldpark: Hosking is shorter than his wife, and John Hawkesby once commented, “He asked me for my daughter’s hand in marriage and I said, ‘To be honest, Mike, we were hoping for someone a bit taller,’” laughs John. You remember John, he got almost $6 million from the taxpayer; Hosking may be short, but he is obviously not stupid.
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February 17, 2015 8:21am
Harriet

Stephie – you forget to mention the Jews!

How could you forget the Jews!
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February 17, 2015 8:22am
iMP

The Christian Egyptian TV ministry videos of the detailed and ghastly beheading of the 20 Egyptian Christians yesterday by ISIS is very sobering (you can ind it on various FB sites). This is a very real threat. These men were just workers in Libya, For that, they’ve had their heads hacked off because they profess to be Christians. Utter evil.
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February 17, 2015 8:23am
waikatogirl

Nasska….””I have all the rights in the world while I’m alive but when it comes to me dying my last will and testament is being completely and utterly ignored by the law fraternity, by Parliament, by everybody.””……

***
We will never get our way with euthanasia while insidious religious belief is prominent in our Parliamentarians and law fraternity.
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February 17, 2015 8:27am
holysheet

Stupidboy,
why do you assume that there is no other form of life out there in the great universe?
Surely with all the billions of stars out there, why can there not be one with other living beings on it?
As Jim said, there’s life but not as we know it. Who knows.

I realise the godwacks would rather there was none, but then they have very closed minds.
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February 17, 2015 8:29am
waikatogirl

Sydney’s Daily Telegraph has reported the bid to host America’s Cup qualifier has fallen over. Could it be coming to NZ. The announcement is on 1 March.
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February 17, 2015 8:32am
mandk

@ nasska

A lot of people, both believers and non-believers, take a principled stand against what they see as a push to open the door to death by coercion.

So please don’t resort to puerile and abusive name-calling.
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February 17, 2015 8:35am
Manolo

Is the Oracle of the Deep South (and future candidate) on Little and Labour’s payroll to smear Cam Slater? Is he?
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February 17, 2015 8:41am
Griff

We will win eventually Waikato girl The old guard of god bothering conservatives dies and is replaced with younger more liberal cohorts.

Like the question of how we treat homosexuality the euthanasia debate has slowly moved toward a more rational outcome.

Once being openly gay had you locked up in jail We went though a process of incremental change. Homosexual law reform to civil unions and finally full marriage rights for gay people . These law changes are now accepted by most kiwis as fair and just.

Good things take time.
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February 17, 2015 8:42am
Jack5

British veterinarians seem to be among those who want ritual slaughter practices banned in the UK as cruel.

NZ is heavily into halal slaughter for export, and Jews as well as Muslims want it (kosher and halal) kept for local consumption.

NZ animal rights fanatics might do better addressing this than worrying about seeking laws for testing cosmetics on rabbits – something that apparently has been done in NZ for at least decades.

This is also relevant to Duggledog’s 8.11 post about reluctance to use dogs to hunt bird-killing pests.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31411219
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February 17, 2015 8:42am
itstricky

Is the Oracle of the Deep South (and future candidate) on Little and Labour’s payroll to smear Cam Slater? Is he?

The simpler answer, possibly, is just that Slater is a nasty, spiteful, hit man for hire, hack. But each to their own conspiracy theories I guess.
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February 17, 2015 8:47am
EAD

Grief will not be pleased – James Delingpole shows that the case behind “global warming” is so dishonest, it makes Enron look like a paragon of integrity:

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/02/09/global-warming-so-dishonest-it-makes-enron-look-like-a-paragon-of-integrity/
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February 17, 2015 8:48am
cha

NZ animal rights fanatics might do better addressing this than worrying about seeking laws for testing cosmetics on rabbits – something that apparently has been done in NZ for at least decades.

Halal slaughter is carried out post stunning, shampoo in your eye hurts.

http://www.mia.co.nz/industry_information/FAQ-halal/index.htm
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February 17, 2015 8:49am
Harriet

“…..The old guard of god bothering conservatives dies and is replaced with younger more liberal cohorts…….Once being openly gay had you locked up in jail…….These law changes are now accepted by most kiwis as fair and just….Good things take time….”

Liberal……like back in ’72….when some decided to be liberal and take homosexuality out of the diagnostic manual of mental disorders…….and in about a decades time of liberal behaviour……..about a million of them died.

Call their behaviour or conservative behaviour what you like – but they still died from being TOO liberal.

And euthanasia will become TOO liberal also…….because abortion has!

There will be lots of unessecery dying under liberal behaviour – because there ALWAYS has been.

“..good things take time…’

Like you know what you are talking about!
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February 17, 2015 8:51am
Inandout

Slater comes out with some good, meaty stories, and obviously has ‘sources’, but if he seeks professionalism then he needs to tidy up his spelling and grammar.
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February 17, 2015 8:54am
waikatogirl

mandk: A lot of people, both believers and non-believers, take a principled stand against what they see as a push to open the door to death by coercion.

***
What right do “those principled” people have to tell me or my family what should happen with my life and the way I choose to end it. They don’t know us. Coercion is not something that would ever come into our decision making.
It is all about controlling the masses due to those with religious belief. It always has been.
I am sure there is something mentioned about compassion in the bible.
Suicide is not illegal but it is barbaric if you have to take this path all alone to end terminal suffering. Have some compassion and allow euthanasia…
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February 17, 2015 8:54am
Griff

No EAD Griff thinks following someone who has publicly stated on tv that he has no idea about what science actually says makes you an ignorant nutter who follows other ignorant nutters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0wmuhKzYp4s
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February 17, 2015 8:54am
Manolo

Who wouldn’t flee Islamic savagery? http://www.wsj.com/articles/copenhagen-attacks-reignite-debate-about-safety-of-jews-in-europe-1424027096

Copenhagen attacks reignite debate about safety of Jews in Europe.
Netanyahu invites to seek refuge in Israel; others call for increased effort to fight terrorists.
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February 17, 2015 8:58am
Yvette

Almighty God, humbly acknowledging our need for Thy guidance in all things, and laying aside all private and personal interests, we beseech Thee to grant that we may conduct the affairs of this House and of our country to the glory of Thy holy name, the maintenance of true religion and justice, the honour of the Queen, and the public welfare, peace and tranquillity of New Zealand. Also, we apologise for our freedom of expression laws and in particular Canterbury Museum director Anthony Wright and the t-shirt, although You will be aware of that, already.
Through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.
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February 17, 2015 9:06am
cricko

Here we have further proof that when you read, ‘A new university study has revealed ……”

you can be sure everything that follows will be unadulterated bullshit.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/66277069/orientation-booze-binge-sets-up-students-for–the-year-study

The grant that financed this ‘study’ was money well spent, not.
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February 17, 2015 9:09am
mandk

@ Waikatogirl

“Coercion is not something that would ever come into our decision making”

Yes, I’m sure that’s true in your case, but coercion would certainly become widespread.

My brother and sister-in-law (neither of whom is a believer) have 70 years’ experience between them in geriatric nursing. They are vehemently opposed to euthanasia. The reason is that they deal with offspring as much as they deal with old people, and they have no shadow of a doubt that many offspring would bully their parents into it. Euthanasia would become normalised. It would become widespread. And it would become expected. Ultimately people would be condemned as immoral and selfish for refusing it.

Another reason for opposing euthanasia is that it would remove the imperative to research and develop ways to ensure people can have dignified and pain-free natural deaths.
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February 17, 2015 9:10am
Harriet

“….Coercion is not something that would ever come into our decision making….”

But it is not only you who will be up for euthanasia – everyone will be. The laws will apply to all – even those who don’t want it. That then may lead to them being coerced by their family.

I know where you are coming from – but euthanasia is very complex.

Mainly — a wall will be put up around euthanasia like it has been with abortion – as doctors will be the ones who decide WHEN a person dies – the patient WON’T be the one who decides. Those ‘near death’ will be the first to die. Then it will be expanded to include those ‘futher away from death’. And further again. Exactly how abortion was expanded – the doctor’s make the call.

There are other matters as well.
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February 17, 2015 9:13am
Maggy Wassilieff

@duggledog 8:11am…

Seems DoC might have a communication problem….someone hasn’t checked what is on DoC’s website about Conservation dogs
http://www.doc.govt.nz/parks-and-recreation/plan-and-prepare/dog-access/conservation-dogs/

Confused? I am.
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February 17, 2015 9:14am
mandk

“And euthanasia will become TOO liberal also…….because abortion has!”

True. And, sadly, many women are coerced into abortion. Many “pro-choice” people hate that reality because they are not actually pro-choice at all.
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February 17, 2015 9:16am
Harriet

mandk#

The Bali nine guys are probably going to be shot in the next week, much of the arguement against it is this:

“But it doesn’t stop people from drug smuggling herion.”

Abortion has not stopped child poverty or child abuse. Or women -and men- from being irresponsable either.

It’s a crap arguement against them being shot!
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February 17, 2015 9:23am
Inandout

Manolo: Islam nestles in a host country and then goes about forcing change from within, and with this anti Jew crusade in Europe they are akin to Nazis, the difference being these Nazis are state supported and nurtured.
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February 17, 2015 9:27am
jcuk

Mandk … perhaps in legalising euthanasia it was also mandated that the offspring could not benefit and the estate be given to charity would overcome the pressure problems?
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February 17, 2015 9:30am
stephieboy

I see these crazies are already bringing out their formulaic False Flag Conpiracy and anomoly mongering hunting with the Copenhagen slayings ,

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/02/15/copenhagen/

Veterans Today ,the epicentre of Conspiracy False Flag Friutcakes featuring above the qurntessical Holocaust denier and anti Semite Kevin Barrett .
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February 17, 2015 9:34am
calendar girl

waikatogirl 8:54am –

” ….. to tell me or my family what should happen with my life and the way I choose to end it. They don’t know us. Coercion is not something that would ever come into our decision making.”

Accepting without question that you know your family and its associates well enough in that context, society’s problem remains that none of us can transpose such principled attitudes and intentions across society as a whole.

It’s amazing how inhuman so many families are, or can be, in our type of society. Some families turn fellow family members into prostitutes, druggies, gang members, rapists and more. For the rule of law to have a chance of surviving cohesively in society, there have to be some boundaries around individual rights. Such boundaries require transparent protections against coercion, an abuse of human trust which society at large has little ability to detect because of the very privacy of families and other close personal relationships.

I don’t know the answer to the dilemma that you articulate, and with which I have sympathy. But one observation – it’s a mistake, in my view, to turn your criticism solely towards religious believers as the cause of your frustration. It is not only religious people who stand in the way of law changes that you favour.
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February 17, 2015 9:36am
Kimbo

@ Harriet

mandk#

The Bali nine guys are probably going to be shot in the next week, much of the arguement against it is this:

“But it doesn’t stop people from drug smuggling herion.”

Abortion has not stopped child poverty or child abuse. Or women -and men- from being irresponsable either.

It’s a crap arguement against them being shot!

Hmm. Let’s try this:

The argument for deterrence should go hand in hand with proportionality of punishment for the crime.

For example, cutting off someone’s hand for theft may well act as a deterrent but it does not seem just. The punishment far out-weighs the crime.

In contrast the death penalty for drug smuggling probably acts as a deterrent for many…and it seems just to me. Providing drugs for the long slow death of addiction is a form of murder, so the penalty fits the crime.

Plus deterrence does not mean the crime will not occur. Instead all should be discouraged, and many will modify their intended behaviour. If not, anarchy will reign.

But from a practical perspective there is no law or deterrent that will stop some individuals, nor crime in general. Is the dangerous fallacy believed by Utopians, both religious (ISIS) and ideological (Communism).
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February 17, 2015 9:38am
doggone7

Inandout: “Slater comes out with some good … but if he seeks professionalism …”

“Professionalism” is not something he seeks. The weird thing is that he persists in having expectations of other media around notions of what us older ones call professionalism.
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February 17, 2015 9:45am
waikatogirl

mandk: Yes, I’m sure that’s true in your case, but coercion would certainly become widespread.

***
You make it sound like the family conspire to kill and steal. Ok, there are awful, grasping offspring,etc who may benefit from a timely death. BUT keep coercion illegal, 2 doctors signing off on the patients state of terminal illness and counseling before they make the final decision to end their life.

Surely we must be seen as mature enough to make our own decisions. We run our lives, we should be allowed to finish our lives by planning our end. I would want my family present at the end, not die alone after a handful of pills and a broken heart from being abandoned in my final moments…
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February 17, 2015 9:46am
Harriet

Kimbo.

True.

Punishments exist to stop most people most of the time from breaking the law.

“….Providing drugs for the long slow death of addiction is a form of murder, so the penalty fits the crime….”

I read the other day that 0.25grams of heroin is enough to get 4 people high. They bought in 8000grms – 32,000 hits!. Chan and the other one admitted that they had done 8-9 smuggling runs before being caught. That’s probaly a quarter of a million hits!!

It was also said that per kilo[1000grms] about 4-5 people on average die from a heroin overdose!

And then we have hundreds of women who prostitute themselves because they are addicts. Thousands of houses, cars, shops ect are stolen from. Thousands of family members have their lives turned upside down to a family member being an addict. And police, hospitals ect waste resources. Then there is tax that could be better spent.

They’ll shoot them alright. And they won’t be the last. Indonesia doesn’t want those problems either.
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February 17, 2015 9:53am
Kimbo

@ doggone7

Inandout: “Slater comes out with some good … but if he seeks professionalism …”

“Professionalism” is not something he seeks. The weird thing is that he persists in having expectations of other media around notions of what us older ones call professionalism.

I think I’ve worked out his essential shtick. He is a News of the World/Sun online tabloid, seeking targets for outrage, including other media (as Fox News does) , most of the time stroking the existing prejudices/reinforcing the values of his readers. And often echoing his own values, sometimes maybe not. And sometimes for hire, often not – although the overall product is designed to attract clients for a form of PR work in the form of “news”.

Has its place and purpose, and even if you disagree it is here to stay. As long as you read carefully, and with a discerning eye.

Plus, sadly the standard of comments has become poor. More of a herd/cult – although there are some insightful posts among the dross.
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February 17, 2015 9:57am
coffee con

A letter from Gen X to the free thinkers in Gen Y and Gen zero.

Dear Leaders of Tomorrow….

How to change the world to the one that you want to live in. One without poverty or war.

Learn understand and use Systems Analysis for it is used for fixing all manner of broken systems.

Step one: determine what the nature and the purpose of ‘The System’ should be

Ask the questions..
Who should the system be for?
What should its purpose be?

The answer to the first question should be ‘the people’ not just some but all of the people.

The answer to the second should be whatever the optimal state is for those that the system should be for.
For people that is to be in a state of happiness.

Happiness = Maslow’s Hierarchy for people
Happiness is different each individual, but some or all of the contents of Maslow’s are required in an individual’s life for them to be happy.
Maslow’s is also used as the basis for much economic theory so its a good place to start.

Step 2: Establish a new constitution based on Maslow’s to protect and enshrine in legislation an individual’s right to happiness.

Step 3: Introduce a UBI
This is to ensure that whilst you transition to a better system for everyone, that until the transition is made that with a UBI in place people will have a much better chance at happiness.

Step 4: Undertake a review of all businesses/organisations in all sectors.
Determine the roles performed in these businesses

Step 5: identify those roles that can be automated with today’s technology.

Step 6: direct resources towards automating them and freeing yourselves from having to work.

Step 7: introduce the concept of users instead of ownership. Important Note: allow people to transition to ‘usership’ at their own pace. do not force this, instead let it happen organically but provide goods and services in a way that makes sense for them to do so. If people need a good example of ‘Usership’, show them the internet.

Step 8: When it is no longer required, remove the money. Again do not force this but do it when collectively as a society it makes sense to do so.

Good Luck and Best Wishes.

Make the world a place you would be proud to bring a child into.
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February 17, 2015 10:03am
Paulus Gnome

Busy news day I see, not a cloud in the sky; where are all the climate alarmists this morning?
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February 17, 2015 10:03am
mandk

@ Waikatogirl

The problem is that the sort of safeguards you are suggesting are very similar to the safeguards in relation to abortion.

Women who are contemplating abortion are intended to make fully informed, unfettered choices, supplemented by counselling. This often doesn’t happen, however. A lot of women are coerced (including by doctors), they don’t necessarily receive full information, and they get perfunctory counselling and/or psychological assessments.
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February 17, 2015 10:06am
hj

‘Pears Otago Health can’t do surgery because of Swanny – boy?
Tag Tannery
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February 17, 2015 10:12am
Harriet

Kimbo#

“…Let’s try this: The argument for deterrence should go hand in hand with proportionality of punishment for the crime…’

How about we try this:

It’s called the Sanctity of Life arguement – with regards to the death penalty I understand – where you have to take a life so as to value life, because if you don’t you are undervalueing life itself.

Anyway, I ended up reading this site this morning – because I was reading up on Antinomianism [with regards to current hyper grace]-and well- ended up here, seriously looking at studing this much further – I actually really like it! – it seems a very informative site so far.

http://www.meetthepuritans.com/why-you-should-read-the-puritans/

And I came across this in the first few paragraphs of the introduction into Puritanism:

“….Puritanism was a kind of vigorous Calvinism…’ —- My AH-HA moment……I’ll end up being more sanctified than Kimbo! – we’ll maybe not with that attitude! 😎

BTW. I didn’t get the book on The Reformation – saw the posts between you and Lucia – and thought I might get a Kimble instead as I’ve been meaning to for a while. – I didn’t know Religious books were reasonably inexpensive. Cheers.
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February 17, 2015 10:16am
doggone7

Kimbo: “… the standard of comments has become poor. More of a herd/cult…”

The herd is practising free speech. “You are allowed to speak freely as long as you freely agree with what we say. You can have that freedom until you freely go against what we want to hear.”
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February 17, 2015 10:17am
Kimbo

@ doggone7

Kimbo: “… the standard of comments has become poor. More of a herd/cult…”

The herd is practising free speech. “You are allowed to speak freely as long as you freely agree with what we say. You can have that freedom until you freely go against what we want to hear.”

Yep. But it is his site, so he can do what he wants. And others can judge freely the credibility of the “free speech”.

There: problem solved.
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February 17, 2015 10:22am
EAD

The author nails it:

“So once again we see the innate dishonesty of the left and their typical ends justifies the means mentality. They’ll do anything to shut down opponents whose ideas damage their plans”

http://truebluenz.com/2015/02/17/leftists-whiners-create-false-impression-of-wide-support/

It is why Grief does not like James Delingpole, Jo Nova and anyone else who dares challenge the “global warming” meme.
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February 17, 2015 10:23am
Kimbo

@ Harriet

How about we try this:

It’s called the Sanctity of Life argument – with regards to the death penalty I understand – where you have to take a life so as to value life, because if you don’t you are undervalueing life itself.

Yes. Is a variation on the punishment fitting the crime. Is why I changed my mind about the death penalty about 25 years ago.

“….Puritanism was a kind of vigorous Calvinism…’

Yes, but often mis-portrayed. For instance, if you wanted to try the “I’m too holy to have sex with my spouse” thing, you would be subject to rebuke by the elders. Indeed, regular sexual relations were seen as a sign of a good marriage/spiritual obedience – as per Paul’s injunctions in the first letter to the Corinthians…
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February 17, 2015 10:26am
EAD

I wonder if stephieboy joined in the “#iloveObama hashtag lovefest?

http://www.infowars.com/cult-of-personality-iloveobama-trends-on-twitter/

Some of the responses by Conservatives were brilliant:

#ILoveObama because I was starting to feel sorry for Carter being the Worst President in USA for so long

Due to his steady hand on the economy & massive deficit reduction, debt fell from 10 down to 18 trillion.
#ILoveObama

#ILoveObama because while the world’s on fire, he stays so cool and calm by golfing 200 times & attending 400 fundraisers.

#ILoveObama because he’s not afraid to totally disappear when Americans are under attack, then reappear and blame a YouTube video for it.

I used to think Scientology was the creepiest cult until #ILoveObama started trending. Reading some of these tweets is disturbing.
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February 17, 2015 10:28am
Griff

.Providing drugs for the long slow death of addiction is a form of murder, so the penalty fits the crime

So when do we start hanging the drug pushers who sell alcohol and tobacco?

This is the berl report on drug harm in nz.
https://www.fyi.org.nz/request/1213/response/4866/attach/html/4/BERL%202008%20New%20Zealand%20Drug%20Harm%20Index%20final%20report.pdf.html
It uses the cost of policing a direct result of prohibition and the lost opportunity cost of cannabis supply to massively inflate the cost of social harms for cannabis not the effects of drug use.
If cannabis was legal these costs instantly become a benefit. Where cannabis to become legal little will be spent on policing it. If it was legal it is then a part of the economy just like alcohol able to be taxed and inflating GDP and the tax take not a negative accounted black market undertaking .
They also use prohibitions results to account for the cost of both lack of skills and lack of eduction effects on an individual. Because the authorities limit your schooling and the negative consequences of a conviction limit you opportunity it is counted as a drug harm .

The costs of cannabis prohibition are the measurement justice use to justify prohibition.
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February 17, 2015 10:34am
Kimbo

@ Griff

Providing drugs for the long slow death of addiction is a form of murder, so the penalty fits the crime

So when do we start hanging the drug pushers who sell alcohol and tobacco?

Actually thought of you when I wrote that.

Pragmatically as both alcohol and tobacco have been entrenched widely in our culture for centuries, we take a different approach: control, not prohibition.

As heroin has not reached the same status, it is treated as criminal.

I don’t make the rules – I just report them. However, in this case, while the rules are not consistent, they are nonetheless the right ones, IMHO.

But there is certainly a case for decriminalising cannabis, as we have arguably long-since entrenched unintended evils as occurred during the foolish American Prohibition experiment of 1919 to 1933.
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February 17, 2015 10:50am
Griff

So that is your defense for following James Delingpole take on science once it is proven that in his own words he doesn’t actually read any actual science.
labeling climate science a commie plot . A commie plot that is endorsed by ever major scientific body in the world.

I am right leaning liberal EAD as are most of the scientific Establishment.

Whacky Conspiracy theory’s are behind much of your brain farts.
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February 17, 2015 10:51am
Harriet

Kimbo#

Yeah I was impressed they got the balance right.

“…. The Puritans saw that Antinomianism – in all its guises – was as dangerous as legalism, and so they stood for the continuance of the Law and the obligation of the Christian believer to keep it. The Puritans were not Antinomians. A. R. Vidler remarks that “The Church on earth has always, as it were, to walk on the razor edge between legalism and antinomianism, between taking the Law too seriously and not taking it seriously enough. It is not surprising that every Church tends to err in one direction or the other.” The Puritans walked this middle path and rendered service to the Christian doctrine of sanctification which cannot be over-estimated. They rejected Antinomianism as firmly as they repudiated Legalism….”

I got that off Bill Muehlenberg – my daily fix. I’d never heard of antinomianism[well not the word] till he wrote about it today. — I think I may do all my reading via the Puritan site and their book list.

BTW – what’s the Catholic view of them?[I don’t want to go to hell. 🙂 ] — just a short answer is fine. Then I’ll leave you in peace. Cheers.
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February 17, 2015 10:53am
Manolo

I wonder if stephieboy joined in the “#iloveObama hashtag lovefest?

He not only joined it, he bloody created the hashtag! The progressive adores the Messiah to bits.
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February 17, 2015 10:56am
Griff

Pragmatically as both alcohol and tobacco have been entrenched widely in our culture for centuries.
so has the use of cannabis
we tried prohibition for alcohol it resulted in an escalation of harm
The same result is evident in my above post using the police’s own justification for prohibition of cannabis.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Hopefully as a progressive society we live and learn from our mistakes

The war on drugs has measurably failed to reduce the harm of drug use.
Make cannabis use a health problem not a justice problem and reduce the harm it does to us all.
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February 17, 2015 10:59am
Harriet

“….But there is certainly a case for decriminalising cannabis…’

Dunno.

A cop once told me that they have leverage over people, and can either warn them or arrest them for dope, so as to get information of more serious offences. As it’s only a minor crime.

Seems fair to me – as they don’t knock down doors for a joint or two. Foolish enough to bring yourself to their attention – that’s a different matter.
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February 17, 2015 11:00am
Manolo

More desecration in France: http://news.yahoo.com/hundreds-tombs-defaced-french-jewish-cemetery-minister-185834556.html

Sarre-Union (France) (AFP) – France’s interior minister said Sunday several hundred tombs had been defaced at a Jewish cemetery in the northeast of the country, in what he called “a despicable act”.
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February 17, 2015 11:09am
IGM

Who gives a stuff what Union Andy and Mumblefuck Shearer think should be done about Isis? They are nothing but usual run-of-the-mill pacifist gutless left-wing Labourites. If we got into a real confrontation they would turn the other cheek . . . I get sick of hearing about the left-wing scum every time I turn on a radio or Tv. They seem obsessed with pushing their gutless views, journalists coming from a long line of conscientious objectors and losers.
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February 17, 2015 11:16am
Kimbo

@ Harriet

…. The Puritans saw that Antinomianism – in all its guises – was as dangerous as legalism, and so they stood for the continuance of the Law and the obligation of the Christian believer to keep it.

Yep. In contrast to Luther, Calvin understood the Law of Moses (including, but not limited to the 10 Commandments) was a valid and necessary resource for Christian sanctification (but not salvation – Sola Christo/Christ alone for that!)

Certainly most of what is designated “ceremonial law” is understood as a pointer to Christ and therefore no longer abiding (e.g, prohibition on eating pork and shellfish), but the “civil” and “moral” aspects are applied in the everyday life of the Christian, both personally and corporately – or at least once appropriate discerning of essential principles and application for a different context has been determined. So, for example, the essential Presbyterian/Reformed clerical office of “elder” is found in the decision of Moses to designate men to rule over groups of ten.

BTW – what’s the Catholic view of them?[I don’t want to go to hell. 🙂 ] — just a short answer is fine. Then I’ll leave you in peace. Cheers.

Well, maybe you should ask Lucia Maria, but try this (and I freely acknowledge I am writing from a Calvinist perspective):

Beyond the essential Protestant distinctives of repudiating a sacerdotal (mediating) clergy ministering the 7 sacraments as the sole means of grace, Papal authority, and the Catholic role of tradition as equal to Scripture, there is one other thing that I think Catholics take issue with Calvinists, and in a sense the theological breach is irreconcilable:

Calvinists believe justification (declaration of “not guilty” and right relationship with God through Christ alone) and sanctification (being made continually more holy through the work of the Holy Spirit) are not the same. While they are not separate, they are nonetheless distinct. Christ alone justifies with no act on our part to co-operate (faith is not viewed by Calvinists as a work). In contrast we respond with works of obedience (e.e, prayer, involvement in church, etc) to him when he subsequently sanctifies us.

Catholics, as I understand it do not make the distinction between the two. Indeed, justification is something that the Christian contributes towards by means of acts of obedience. Hence the Protestant response, Sola gratia/Grace alone (i.e., not works) for justification.
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February 17, 2015 11:20am
Manolo

IGM is right: Captain Mumblefuck Shearer’s opinion is of no importance, whatsoever.
The Chardonnay socialist is an appeaser.
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February 17, 2015 11:24am
NoCash

Oliver Twist (114 comments) says:
February 17th, 2015 at 8:07 am
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11403133
UFO in Queenstown photo baffles ex-sceptic
Any suggestions?

A dust or oil speck on the camera sensor.
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February 17, 2015 11:27am
Kimbo

@ Harriet

The official Roman Catholic view of justification:

“If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema” (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).

“If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.” (Canon 14).

So Calvinist belief is anathema for RC’s.

Trust that is a short (but also accurate and sufficienty detailed) answer.
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February 17, 2015 11:39am
Harriet

Kimbo#

Thanks very much for that effort – I wasn’t expecting that much! Yeah, of course, I forgot about the Pope! – but not JP2!

Anyway, I will read the Puritans further as the site is ‘Meet the Puritans’ and so far is very informative – and I am enjoying it – then I’ll take it from there. Again thanks so much.

I’ll shove off now and catch up. 🙂 Have a good day.
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February 17, 2015 11:45am
Oliver Twist

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11403133

I wonder if that is snow not cloud (sky) above the obvious near ridge and the object is a hut or rock. (Claims other photos don’t show the object.)
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February 17, 2015 11:49am
Inandout

Looks like a tourists helicopter, not a UFO.
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February 17, 2015 12:17pm
Inandout

Manolo: Isn’t it time Mossad got involved?
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February 17, 2015 12:19pm
Komata

FWIW:

Red Radio’s 1200 news states that the gweens are ‘offended’ that ‘Angry’ little has left them off the Security Intelligence Committee, with Russell Norman suggesting that Turei would be the ideal person for the position instead of David Shearer, being of the opinion that her presence on the committee would ‘keep it honest’, and stop it from being an ‘old boys club’. JK says that Little ‘got it right’ and I have to agree. Aside from Norman’s very obvious envy-symptoms, to have Turei on a Security Committee would be somewhat equivalent to having the Fox guard the hen-house – from inside.

At least Labour have some idea about what ‘security’ (especially state security) entails; the veiled communist gweens don’t, and probably never will.

For once (if perhaps for the only time) Little seems to have made the right decision. Having set THAT precedent, perhaps he might even make another one, or even some more…

Time will tell.
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February 17, 2015 12:27pm
waikatogirl

Mandk: The problem is that the sort of safeguards you are suggesting are very similar to the safeguards in relation to abortion.

***
mandk, You do appear to feel it is your right to tell others that what you believe is right for everyone else.
It is not up to anyone to tell others what should be so in their lives. For those over 18 abortion and right to die are PERSONAL, and adults have the right, with appropriate counseling and support to make their own decisions.
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February 17, 2015 1:26pm
waikatogirl

Celia Lashley has died of pancreatic cancer.

A good Kiwi who spoke a lot of common sense. A loss to NZ.
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February 17, 2015 1:37pm
stephieboy

EAD, James Delingpole consorts with the Prince of Paranoa Alex Jones,

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=faSQr-SVh8A

Birds of a feather flock together don’t you think ?
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February 17, 2015 1:45pm
doggone7

Manolo:

I wouldn’t quibble about whether Shearer’s opinion is important but at least he’s a member of Parliament. I think he was elected.

Is there something special about people like Rodney Hide, Mike Hosking and Cameron Slater which sees their opinion as so important they have become the doyens, the ones whose word is sought, valued and quoted in so many sources?

You might say Shearer’s just dumb, past his used by date, hasn’t got a clue or whatever but those qualities are eyes of the beholder measures and surely apply to the other mentioned ones. Are their opinions of importance?
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February 17, 2015 1:57pm
mandk

@ waikatogirl

Sorry, but you’re missing the point.

Just as some/many women are coerced into abortion, without full information, counselling or assessment, people will be coerced into euthanasia.

It just isn’t the case that women are enabled by the system to make an unpressured, fully informed decision about whether to have an abortion or not. Why would it be any different with euthanasia?
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February 17, 2015 2:10pm
Ross12

komata

Further to your post , Norman is showing his arrogance and hypocrisy

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/66292339/labour-leader-andrew-little-broke-law-over-spy-committee-pick

On the one hand the Greens are saying Little broke the law in his selection but then Norman is quoted as saying

He says” it’s certainly true that Labour and National do have a lot of experience running a spy agency engaged in illegal spying.”

What about the 6+ years he was on the committee / Talk about throwing “his toys from the cot”
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February 17, 2015 2:31pm
RJL

@Ross

The Greens have never run GCSB/SIS etc. Only National and Labour have had ministers responsible for these agencies. The Intelligence and Security Committee doesn’t run GCSB/SIS.
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February 17, 2015 2:36pm
Ross12

RJL

I don’t think any Minister “runs” the GCSB/SIS. The Director General ( or whatever they call themselves ) run the operations and he or she is responsible to the Minister.
The Greens have had input through the Committee as I said above , and if they have had issues they have had ability to have direct influence / input.
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February 17, 2015 2:54pm
Griff

mandk you are telling lies

Just as some/many women are coerced into abortion, without full information, counselling or assessment, people will be coerced into euthanasia.

Translates as I disagree with their informed decisions and seek to stop them having a right to make informed decisions about their futures instead my view on these subjects overrides all others.
Abortion in New Zealand requires the consent of two doctors I am sure during the process options and information are provided.
Having just dealt with the thankfully short illness and death of my father I find people like you disgusting in their desire to make others obey their views despite the agony they cause. Dad died surrounded and supported by family after life prolonging invasive medical intervention was deliberately withdrawn at our request .
We actually had relief signaled by the medical professionals involved for our family mindset.
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February 17, 2015 2:56pm
Weihana

Kimbo (1,731 comments) says:
February 17th, 2015 at 9:38 am

In contrast the death penalty for drug smuggling probably acts as a deterrent for many…

True, but irrelevant. The price of the drug factors in the risks. If you raise the risks, the price goes up to provide the necessary incentive for someone to take the risk. The increase in price may correspond with a decline in demand at that inflated price, but unfortunately the people least likely to be deterred are those who are most addicted and likely to cause the most problems as a consequence of their habit.
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February 17, 2015 2:57pm
Dennis Horne

mandk says: February 17th at 2:10 pm. Sorry, but you’re missing the point.

Just as some/many women are coerced into abortion, without full information, counselling or assessment, people will be coerced into euthanasia.

It just isn’t the case that women are enabled by the system to make an unpressured, fully informed decision about whether to have an abortion or not. Why would it be any different with euthanasia?

See! That’s what happens when individuals have freedom to choose for themselves.

Men must tell women what to do, for their own good…

Infallible men. 😉
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February 17, 2015 2:58pm
Weihana

Kimbo (1,731 comments) says:
February 17th, 2015 at 10:50 am

Pragmatically as both alcohol and tobacco have been entrenched widely in our culture for centuries, we take a different approach: control, not prohibition.

As heroin has not reached the same status, it is treated as criminal.

I don’t make the rules – I just report them. However, in this case, while the rules are not consistent, they are nonetheless the right ones, IMHO.

Why are they the right ones? If you are providing your opinion you are not just reporting the rules. Whilst culture is an accurate explanation for why there are different rules it doesn’t provide a good justification for those rules.

Portugal decriminalised the possession of all drugs for personal use in 2001, and there now exists a significant body of evidence on what happened following the move. Both opponents and advocates of drug policy reform are sometimes guilty of misrepresenting this evidence, with the former ignoring or incorrectly disputing the benefits of reform, and the latter tending to overstate them.

The reality is that Portugal’s drug situation has improved significantly in several key areas. Most notably, HIV infections and drug-related deaths have decreased, while the dramatic rise in use feared by some has failed to materialise. However, such improvements are not solely the result of the decriminalisation policy; Portugal’s shift towards a more health-centred approach to drugs, as well as wider health and social policy changes, are equally, if not more, responsible for the positive changes observed. Drawing on the most up-to-date evidence, this briefing clarifies the extent of Portugal’s achievement, and debunks some of the erroneous claims made about the country’s innovative approach to drugs.

http://www.tdpf.org.uk/blog/drug-decriminalisation-portugal-setting-record-straight
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February 17, 2015 3:05pm
mandk

@ Griff

I resent being called a liar. And I think you are very naïve if you believe that women are not coerced in to abortion.

AFAIK, there have been no studies of coercion and abortion in NZ, but studies in the US have indicated that coercion is a factor in 30%-50% of cases.

The most authoritative evidence from NZ indicates that, overall, women are more likely to be mentally harmed by abortion than benefitted by it, despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of abortions are approved on mental health grounds. This signifies that women are being very poorly served when they are considering abortions.

I think it might also be reasonably surmised that one of the reasons that, overall, abortion harms the mental health of women is that many women are being coerced into it.
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February 17, 2015 3:06pm
Weihana

Harriet (5,502 comments) says:
February 17th, 2015 at 11:00 am

“….But there is certainly a case for decriminalising cannabis…’

Dunno.

A cop once told me that they have leverage over people, and can either warn them or arrest them for dope, so as to get information of more serious offences. As it’s only a minor crime.

Seems fair to me – as they don’t knock down doors for a joint or two. Foolish enough to bring yourself to their attention – that’s a different matter.

That’s an appalling justification. You might as well argue that they should have unlimited powers of search and seizure “so as to get information of… serious offences”. If cannabis should be illegal then it should be illegal on its own merits, not merely as a means to expand powers of search that would otherwise not be justified.

I submit that the only reason it “seems fair” to you is because it doesn’t affect you personally.
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February 17, 2015 3:10pm
hj

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10931854/Multiculturalism-in-reverse-as-teenagers-buck-the-trend-towards-integration.html

Teenagers no more integrated with other races than the middle aged, major new study of Britain’s friendship circles shows
……….
attn Spoonley
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February 17, 2015 3:16pm
Dennis Horne

I doubt abortion is something any woman looks forward to. I am fairly certain most women would prefer a baby. I am sure there are often regrets, guilt, maybe signs of mental ill health.

All that a free society can do is help the woman make a sound decision at the time for the time.

Telling them they can’t have an abortion because some men find it distasteful and wrong is a far greater wrong.

Apart from anything else, it leads to “back street” abortions, where woman die.

The woman might have been coerced into sexual intercourse in the first place. Sterilise the fathers?
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February 17, 2015 3:19pm
Shawn Herles

“We will win eventually Waikato girl The old guard of god bothering conservatives dies and is replaced with younger more liberal cohorts.”

hehe, I admire your faith Griff, but it’s misplaced. There is plenty of evidence that on some issues younger people are more conservative, not less. In the US younger people are far more likely to be anti-abortion than older people.

Of course, generalizations of any sort, including yours and mine, are tricky things. People can be very conservative on one issue and very liberal on another.

But I think it is safe to say that the secular liberal myth of “progress” in which society becomes progressively more liberal is no longer taken seriously outside of atheist circles.

And your premis is based on an odd assumption, that peoples voting habits do not change as they grow older. I don’t think that is a valid assumption.

Generation Y: why young voters are backing the Conservatives.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jun/26/generation-y-young-voters-backing-conservatives

Why Teenagers Today May Grow Up Conservative.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/08/upshot/why-teenagers-may-be-getting-more-conservative.html?_r=0&abt=0002&abg=1

Millennial Generation Becoming More Fiscally Conservative

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/27/milliennials-fiscal-conservative-gen-y_n_2030211.html

Why Are Young British People Turning Conservative?

http://www.vice.com/print/meeting-the-future-faces-of-the-tory-party

Liberal Teenagers May Turn Into Generation of Conservatives

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/NYT-liberals-conservatives-children/2014/07/08/id/581393/
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February 17, 2015 3:23pm
ciaron

In a hypothetical country that chose to enact euthanasia, would it make it easier for a government to enact programmes similar to action T4?

This is not a personal criticism, but I have yet to hear an argument from euthanasia supporters that is not either from emotion or an appeal to personal liberty.
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February 17, 2015 3:26pm
Griff

Are they mandk ? You have a view that ignores others personal desires rather inflicts your morality on others.
Try producing actual evidence rather then anti abortion rhetoric from mostly christian based USA conservative anti abortion lobbyists.

I know personally of two abortions within my close circle of friends.
Both woman after many years still agree the the informed personal decision they made was for the better.
I would also say that both the decisions also benefited society as a whole allowing both woman to reach full productive potential rather than becoming yet another solo mum adverse statistic in new Zealand.
Often the same conservatives who decry abortion are the same ones who moan incessantly about the cost of the dpb
Sexist conservative crap seeking to return woman to the position of slaves to men barefoot and pregnant chained to the kitchen sink.
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February 17, 2015 3:28pm
Shawn Herles

“All that a free society can do is help the woman make a sound decision at the time for the time.”

A society is not free when it’s weakest and most defenseless members have no rights and can be murdered at will.

“Telling them they can’t have an abortion because some men find it distasteful and wrong is a far greater wrong.”

It’s not distasteful, it’s murder. Murder is wrong.

“Apart from anything else, it leads to “back street” abortions, where woman die.”

Abortions lead to baby’s dying, and in vastly greater numbers. Plus, the “back street” idea is more myth than reality. It is based on what happened at a time when health care in general was very different to today. Assuming illegal abortions did happen, they would be happening in the 21st century, not the Victorian era.
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February 17, 2015 3:28pm
cricko

One of the most pathetic things that can occur in Parliament is when a member reads
a prepared speech and obviously lacks the wit to amend it to take account of developments
that have occured since he (or someone) wrote his speech.

Chris Hipkins is making a total prat of himself right now by reading such a speech in the debate
on the Prime Ministers Statement.

On and on he prattles about the Sky City deal.
Totally oblivious to the fact that an agreement has now been reached which does not involve
spending more taxpayers money.

And on the screen in the Parliament TV shot are three Labour members nodding their gormless heads in
agreement with every outdated and irrelevant point he makes.

When you have Ruth Dyson, Sue Moroney and Carmel Seppuloni as your cheerleaders applauding
your every stupid utterence you can see that the whole Labour machine has come off the rails.

What a fricken embarrassment.
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February 17, 2015 3:29pm
Shawn Herles

“This is not a personal criticism, but I have yet to hear an argument from euthanasia supporters that is not either from emotion or an appeal to personal liberty.”

I would not appeal to personal liberty, but I do think there is a valid issue that needs to be addressed, and that is horrific, long term suffering of terminally ill patients.

Don’t get me wrong, I would oppose any “euthanasia on demand” policy, but this one is much more of a gray area for me than abortion is.

The issue needs more debate.

Heh, now I have probably managed to piss off both liberals and Roman Catholics! 🙂
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February 17, 2015 3:32pm
Dennis Horne

A society is not free when it’s weakest and most defenseless members have no rights and can be murdered at will. It’s not distasteful, it’s murder. Abortions lead to baby’s dying, and in vastly greater numbers. Plus, the “back street” idea is more myth than reality.

If women choose not to carry to term it’s none of your damn business, legally or morally. Furthermore, I wouldn’t prosecute a woman who kills her newborn.

Do you seriously think women would get satisfactory medical care if abortion were illegal? Where, exactly?
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February 17, 2015 3:43pm
ciaron

@Griff,
Both woman after many years still agree the informed personal decision they made was for the better.

Some degree of clairvoyance would be necessary for that statement to be true…

@ Shawn,
Heh, now I have probably managed to piss off both liberals and Roman Catholics!

If that was aimed at me, I’m not a Papist.
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February 17, 2015 3:45pm
mandk

@ Griff

You are generalising on the basis of anecdotal evidence from 2 acquaintances.

I know of a number of women who were coerced. Coercion comes from boyfriends, husbands, mothers, other relatives, peers, school counsellors, employers, doctors, and from simply not having good information on the alternatives to abortion.

And how do you know that you don’t have acquaintances who have not mentioned their experiences of abortion because they were so damaging?

It is simply not credible to argue that women are free from coercion when they are considering abortion.
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February 17, 2015 3:47pm
Dennis Horne

Both woman after many years still agree the informed personal decision they made was for the better.
Some degree of clairvoyance would be necessary for that statement to be true…

Many years later the women are saying they made the right decision at the time.

If their lives had been unhappy and unfulfilled they might have blamed the abortions, that’s what people do, find something to blame. I suspect if they have mental problems after an abortion they would have far worse problems with the child or children. If all had been well then abortion wouldn’t have been considered in the first place.
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February 17, 2015 3:55pm
Weihana

Shawn Herles (7,282 comments) says:
February 17th, 2015 at 3:28 pm

It’s not distasteful, it’s murder. Murder is wrong.

Shawn Herles (7,282 comments) says:
February 17th, 2015 at 3:32 pm

but this one is much more of a gray area for me than abortion is.

I assume anyone who views abortion as a black and white issue does so on religious grounds. The facts on human life and development don’t, in my view, lead to obvious answers. I don’t like the idea of abortion but a rigid assumption that at the moment of conception there exists a being equally deserving of all the legal protections afforded to everyone else does not appear reasonable to me.

It may have a unique DNA that will eventually grow into a human adult (assuming nature does not cause a miscarriage), but are we to believe that humans have rights because we have DNA? What about before we knew DNA even existed? Did we not have rights before then?

Even if we assume that human’s have a “soul”, do we believe that animals lack souls? Are they zombies without internal subjective feelings and experiences? I’m no animal lover, but I cannot deny that they feel and experience life and should be entitled to some measure of legal protection. And yet a human just conceived can hardly be said to have feelings and experiences that come close to what fully grown animals have, animals that we kill for food.

Lastly, if killing the unborn is wrong, why does nature cause it to happen on a regular basis? The US National Institutes of Health states that up to half of all pregnancies undergo spontaneous abortion.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001488.htm

Is hypocrisy allowed if you are God?

Abortion for me is one of those difficult areas where there are few right and wrong answers. The choice should be left up to each individual to decide according to their conscience. Few women appear to take this question lightly and those who stand in righteous judgment holding signs outside abortion clinics are assholes.
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