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February 15, 2015 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 15 February 2015

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General Debate

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Kimbo

@ wat dabney

“Catholicism under the guise of Christianity. ”

Ah. No true Scotsman, eh?

No real Christian ever did anything bad.

Which takes the number of real Christians down to precisely zero. Yourself included.

You are as delusional and as dishonest as kowtow and the rest.

Fair enough. But just to flip it over, does that also mean that no true Christian was ever motivated by their religion to do good – such as abolish slavery for example (which was always inherent in the New Testament, but just not practical to say directly, lest the Roman state wiped them all out as a dangerous threat to the very structure of that society)?

Note, wat, I’m not saying it was only Christians who abolished slavery, nor that Christianity wasn’t used as a justification/motivation to set it up (in the Americas at least) in the first place. It was, although it wasn’t the only factor. Nonetheless, they played a significant and indispensible role in its abolition.

Or does that get completely scrubbed, or dismissed as rationalistion/justification? How come, when you are the one so determined to mark down on a ledger all the attrocities religion has caused?! By what rationale is it bad that was committed that must be mentioned validly in response to your debating points?
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February 15, 2015 12:29pm
mandk

@ Fletch,
I think Wat must be referring to education for all, organised health care, housing for the elderly, rest for travellers and all those other evils visited upon the world.
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February 15, 2015 12:32pm
UglyTruth

Any lawyers care to comment?

Not a lawyer, but the number one issue is the difference between US fair use doctrine and fair use in NZ. The US doctrine makes an arbitrary and restrictive interpretation of fair use. Fair use is an aspect of equity rather than in law, but the law does consider equity.
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February 15, 2015 12:32pm
publicwatchdog

Interesting developments in the fight to STOP the Wellington ‘Supercity’ (for the 1%)?

Seems that Porirua City Council Mayor Nick Leggett came out publicly on 10 February 2015, opposing the the Hutt Valley and Wairarapa being ‘bullied’ into amalgamation against their wishes.

In my considered opinion, that would have made Fran WILDe, (as it were) given that there supposedly has to be ‘demonstrable community support’ for this Draft Wellington Reorganisation Proposal across ALL the affected ‘territorial authorities’ in the Greater Wellington region, and the Porirua City Council was (formerly?) her major ally in this latest attempt to dollop another BIG serving of ‘Rogernomic$ corporate control’ on the Wellington region, this time at local government level?

Gosh – I wonder what fellow former ‘Rogernome’ – Porirua City Councillor Ken Douglas ( yes – 80 years old and STILL, in my considered opinion, staunchly looking after business interests), think of this apparent ‘weakening’ of his Mayor’s position on the Draft Wellington Reorganisation Proposal?

I predict that the Draft Wellington Reorganisation Proposal will FAIL.

But – watch this space!

‘Desperate people do (have ready done?) desperate things’ ….

Penny Bright

http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz
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February 15, 2015 12:53pm
Griff

I suggest Ugly if you are going to comment on facets of law a disclaimer is included.
“following my advice can cause persons to do time in jail” seems appropriate.
We wouldn’t want any innocent bystanders harmed would we.
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February 15, 2015 12:58pm
Pete George

@rightoverlabour

I am reposting as the debate has moved on to today. I don’t like Kim.com. but the application of the law in the case of Andrus Nomm raise some concerns. There are many IT professionals in charge of networks at schools etc. You can guarantee that there is copyrighted material sitting on those servers. Could those IT managers be held accountable?

If the school’s IT managers encourage pupils to upload as much stuff as possible that’s popular to download and then pay them for volumes of downloads then I hope they are held accountable.

And if the IT managers are informed there is copyrighted content on the school servers, or obscene or illegal material, that’s being downloaded and they don’t remove the content then they should be held accountable.
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February 15, 2015 1:00pm
Manolo

DSK’s former high-life: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/11412894/The-rise-and-rise-of-the-upmarket-orgy.html

Behind the Dominique Strauss-Khan pimping trial lurks the extraordinarily widespread popularity of the sex party.
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February 15, 2015 1:38pm
Manolo

Another attack in Denmark: http://news.sky.com/story/1427747/man-shot-in-head-at-denmark-synagogue

One person has been shot in the head and two policemen injured at a synagogue in Denmark, hours after a separate deadly attack two miles away sparked a manhunt.

The shooting in capital Copenhagen comes after one man was killed and three police officers injured when a gunman opened fire at a cafe where a meeting on free speech was taking place.
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February 15, 2015 2:04pm
stephieboy

wowan,
this I do know Joe Karam in is book David and Goliath p27 records the fact that Bain made the 111 call at 7.09am on the 20th of June 1994.
He has far as am aware never wavered from that view nor has France’s Edward ‘s according to the PCA investigation .In his Trial by Ambush Karam explained , if my memory serves me correctly ,the 20 min delay in terms of David’s experiencing the effects of acute distress reaction etc.
But we have you claiming Bain in fact ringing 111 much earlier at 6.50 am or thereabouts .For some odd reason that call wasn’t transferred till 7.09 am to the emergency services , the ambulance and police arriving at 65 Every St at 7.33 am.Or are we to believe thise emergency services taking 40 minutes to arrive ?
My knowledge of the Lundy case is obviously not as deeply informed as yours but I understand whoever found Christine and Amber contacted the emergency services more or less iimediately .
Yes or No ?
PS could you reproduce the transcript of the retrial where France’s Edwards repudiates what she told the PCA investigation and what she may of told the 1995 trial ! Is this mentioned in Trial by Ambush ?
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February 15, 2015 2:15pm
Manolo

@stephieboy: do you pray facing Mecca five times a day? 🙂
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February 15, 2015 2:17pm
publicwatchdog

I understand that former ‘Rogernome’ and staunch supporter of BIG business, now Porirua City Councillor Ken Douglas (yes! 80 years old, and STILL going strong, for corporate interests, in my considered opinion), is apparently seeing the Draft Wellington Reorganisation Proposal heading for the rocks ….

Remember, the Porirua City Council was the one Council that was consistently supporting the push led by former ‘Rogernome’ Fran Wilde (ex Chief Labour Party Whip during the politically pivotal 1984 -1987 Rogernomic$ years).

Lest we forget ….

What next????

Watch this space ….

Penny Bright

For background info – http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz
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February 15, 2015 2:22pm
Manolo

Two Muslims exchange letters: http://www.wsj.com/articles/irans-ayatollah-sends-new-letter-to-obama-amid-nuclear-talks-1423872638

WASHINGTON—Iran’s paramount political figure, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, has responded to overtures from President Barack Obama seeking better relations by sending secret communications of his own to the White House.
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February 15, 2015 2:27pm
kowtow

The shootings in Copenhagen (and elsewhere) are a celebration of the richness that multiculturalism and diversity have brought to the boring and stiflingly white western world.

There’ll be a lot more of it.
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February 15, 2015 2:31pm
stephieboy

From a court report 17/03 / 2009

“…Earlier, Dunne said Bain had called 111 and said “Help, they’re all dead,” though, at that stage, he had only seen his mother and father dead.

Bain said he could not account for the 25 minutes between getting home and calling 111 but he said he had been “spacing out” lately and not remembering things….”

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2269511/Bains-111-call-unique

wowan, was that evidence about the 25 min delay ever challenged by the defence and Joe Karam in Trial by Ambush ?
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February 15, 2015 2:36pm
fylde

Agree with penny for once Wellington councils re-org should be dropped
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February 15, 2015 2:40pm
Rowan

Stupidboy
I am still waiting for you to provide me verified details of the timing of Glen Weggerys movements that morning. “my understanding….” is not enough. We have already been over the timing for David. And it is not “my claim” Stupidboy, it is that of Frances Edwards or are you calling her a liar? and no I don’t have her testimonies, you will have to look her up and contact her directly if you want those, sorry can’t help you there!
Joe Karam was relying on the accuracy of the police times in D & G etc which are not particularly accurate so that is there fault not his.
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February 15, 2015 2:57pm
OneTrack

fylde – “Agree with penny for once Wellington councils re-org should be dropped”

But all the Wellington local body politicians and wanna-bees are looking enviously at all that OPM that loose Len is throwing around with gay abandon.

They are all thinking – “What about me. I want to do that too. It’s not fair.”
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February 15, 2015 2:59pm
wiseowl

Shouldn’t that be Daft Re-organisation proposal Penny.

Some more reading for you.
amalgamatehbnot.com
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February 15, 2015 3:19pm
Nostalgia-NZ

‘A supervisor of emergency calls for Telecom, later given name suppression, said at first staff didn’t know if the caller was a “nutter” or not.

She said that Telecom staff decided that it was a genuine call and connected the caller with the ambulance service.

Under cross-examination by Mr Reed, she told the court that she had given a short statement and a longer statement to police but police wanted her to sign a shorter statement.

Asked if she was “happy about that”, she replied: “no”.

The supervisor confirmed to the court that she contacted Bain supporter and book author Joe Karam.

She said she believed the 111 call was made before 7am.

The timing of the call is important to the Crown and defence case.

She said she was normally joined by another staff member at 6.55am when a Telecom service was switched to her office in Christchurch from another part of the country.

But she said that on June 20, 1994, the staff member who handled the switch-over was not present when Bain’s call came through.’

You might have to refer this one back to HQ stephieboy for more bs instructions – they’re good at that.
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February 15, 2015 3:31pm
stephieboy

Nostalgia, yes the passage you site is familari to me and it’s obvious Frances is not at all certain about the timing stating she “believes”
Besides it contradicts evidence given on the 17/03 / 2009 by the police questioning Bian’s 25 min delay calling the emergency services .Additionaly it appears to contradict what she told the PCA investigation and apparently the court in 1995 .
If Bain called the 111 services at say 6.50 am then why the very long delay arriving the ambulance hand police at. 7.33am ?
As I stated Karam explained the delay in Trial by Ambush as to the effects of acute dstress reaction etc he claimed Bain was suffering from.

Wowan, am not suggesting France’s Edwards is lying .I think she is the one who might beconfused about what she said and did not say about the timing of the 111 call.

This from Murder pedia about the discovery of Christine and Amber,

“By 9.30am Wednesday morning, 30th August 2000, several people became concerned after ringing the Lundy house and getting no response. One of those worried was Christine Lundy’s brother, James Glenn Weggery, who called in at the Karamea Crescent residence. After getting no response at the door, he broke into the house and called out ‘Hello”. As he walked up the hall he saw Amber lying bloodied in the doorway. James called emergency services and only when he checked Amber’s pulse did he notice his sister laying face up on the bed, saturated in her only blood.”

http://murderpedia.org/male.L/l/lundy-mark.htm

My understanding is that he or someone else present immediately phoned for the police .Certainly never waited around for 20-25 minutes as far as am aware .
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February 15, 2015 4:21pm
Rowan

“As far as am aware”
Well Stupidboy, you like all of us would have no idea how long he was there, we don’t know and have no way of knowing how “immediate” the phone call was, so “your awareness” is simply speculation.
And get your facts straight idiot, who is “James”
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February 15, 2015 4:32pm
Harriet

Wat Rot#

“….When will your lies and dishonesty end?…”

Nothing is to be gained either in terms of moral insights or historical comprehension by anachronistically imposing the Geneva Convention. 😎

On The Crusades.

“….Muhammad died in 632 and in the next century his followers broke out of their small enclave to take over much of surrounding territory. In the first few decades Egypt, Palestine, Syria, and Persia had been conquered, and at the time of the battle of Tours in 732 Islamic expansionism extended from Spain to Persia.

By the time of the first Crusade Palestine had been under Muslim occupation for almost four hundred years. Christians were often prevented from going on pilgrimages to visit the holy places, and many were killed when they tried to do so. Christians in Jerusalem often suffered terribly under Islamic rule. Christians therefore wanted to reclaim the Holy Land from the Muslims, and reclaim it as part of Christian Europe.

Another very important work on this subject is God’s Battalions: The Case for the Crusades by Rodney Stark. This is must reading for anyone wishing to get some mastery of the topic, and to disabuse themselves of all the mythology that is out there. I said the following in my earlier review of his book:

Stark reminds us that Muhammad told his followers, “I was ordered to fight all men until they say ‘There is no god but Allah.’” Therefore a century after his death vast swathes of territory hung under the bloody sword of Islam.
And what of the conquered Christians living under Islamic rule? They, along with Jews, were known as dhimmis. While revisionist historians and Muslim apologists speak of Muslim tolerance here, the “truth about life under Muslim rule is quite different”.
Indeed, the subject peoples had few options: death, enslavement or conversion were the only avenues open to them. Dhimmitude was no picnic. Death was the fate of anyone who dared to convert out of Islam. No churches or synagogues could be built. There was to be no public praying or reading of Scripture. They were at best treated as second-class citizens, and at worst, punished and killed.
And massacres of Jews and Christians were quite common in the centuries leading up to the Crusades. In 1032-1033 in Morocco alone, there were over six thousand Jews murdered. Jerusalem fell to the Muslims in 638. The Dome of the Rock was built from 685 to 691, and churches and synagogues were levelled in the ensuing centuries.
The condition of Christians in Jerusalem was pretty appalling during this period, as was the plight of penitent pilgrims seeking to enter Jerusalem. They suffered much persecution, and risked their lives simply to travel to the holy city. The destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre – along with thousands of other Christian churches – under the bloody reign of Tariqu al-Hakim at the end of the first millennia simply served as the climax to all this misery and outrage.
It is in this light of six centuries of Islamic conquest, bloodshed and tyranny that the Crusades must be viewed. They were not always pretty, but life in general back then was not pretty. If Crusader excesses took place, this was just par for the course, as excesses by Muslims and others were more than commonplace.
As Stark reminds us, “Granted, it was a cruel and bloody age, but nothing is to be gained either in terms of moral insights or historical comprehension by anachronistically imposing the Geneva Convention on these times.”

Or as Patrick Sookhdeo wrote in The Challenge of Islam to the Church and its Mission, “sadly both sides fought according to the norms of the time, shocking though it seems today.” But just how successful the whole endeavour was, and how much can be reconciled with Christian teachings is of course an important set of considerations here. As Sookhdeo said,

many recognize that there was a need to defend the vulnerable Christians of the Holy Land. Thus the First Crusade was an understandable (possibly justifiable) belated response to the initial Muslim aggression in the first expansionist jihad which conquered and subjugated vast Christian regions and which posed a continuing threat to Christians in the Middle East and to Europe itself. Subsequent Crusades were, however, less easy to justify.

Or as two former Arab Muslims, E. M. Caner and E. F. Caner wrote in their helpful volume, Christian Jihad, which examines just war theory and the Crusades: “Though the First Crusade ended in victory, it represented a quantum shift in the theology, thought, and ethics of the Christian community. For the first time in history, an army was gathered under the aegis of the cross of Jesus Christ, sanctified by the pope to kill in the name of the Lord.”

Indeed, the move away from a biblically acceptable just war position to a sort of Christian holy war was always going to be problematic. There were often bloody massacres which took place as a result of the Crusades. And it was not just the Muslims who were targeted. Sadly it was often Jews who were slaughtered along the way. And sometimes other Christian bodies (eg, Eastern Christians) were attacked as well.

Now I believe that a case can be made for just wars, which are primarily defensive in nature, and for Christian self-defence, both of which I have argued for elsewhere. See for example:
billmuehlenberg.com/2005/08/10/a-review-of-between-pacifism-and-jihad-by-j-daryl-charles/
http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2012/12/20/self-defence-and-scripture/

It should also be pointed out that in the Crusades there was a mixture of religious and secular motivations – good and bad reasons. Some were good reasons, as already noted above. But some were bad reasons. One of the worst was the promise of salvation if one fought and died in the Crusades. And often there was the desire for adventure, for wanderlust, to get wealth, etc.

Some wanted just to leave home and head out on a new life. Some were bloodthirsty and just liked to kill, and so on. Thus there was a mix. Some had very selfish motivations. Others had highly righteous motivations. As Madden says however, overall there were good motivations: “For medieval men and women, the crusade was an act of piety, charity, and love, but it was also a means of defending their world, their culture, and their way of life.”

Mention can also be made of the myth that the Crusades have burned in the minds of Muslims for centuries, and have been part of the rationale for things like 9/11 and ongoing jihad attacks throughout the West. Says Stark, this is clearly not the case: “Muslim antagonism about the Crusades did not appear until about 1900, in reaction against the decline of the Ottoman Empire”. Or as Madden puts it:

Westerners may be surprised to learn that Muslims in the Middle East have only recently learned of the crusades. . . . Muslim perceptions of their own history changed in the twentieth century. Rescued from obscurity, the crusades were discovered and given a place of importance that they had never enjoyed before. The “long memory” of the crusades in the Muslim world is, in fact, a constructed memory.

And what about the equally horrific Muslim offensives, such as the sack of Constantinople in 1453? While we constantly hear Westerners today apologising for what we did so long ago, one hardly ever hears Muslims apologising for this event, or the massacre of the Armenians from 1915 to 1917, or dozens of other major Muslim atrocities. Where is all the hand-wringing over these acts? Why are only Western shortcomings highlighted?…”

http://billmuehlenberg.com/2015/01/20/on-the-crusades/

As I more or less said yeaterday “Christianity was very benovolent upon the West – we are where we are today, mostly healthy and wealthy, because of it.”

Cheers Watty.
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February 15, 2015 4:33pm
stephieboy

wowan, but my link clearly says James Glenn Weeggery was there at 9.30 am, broke into the house and on finding the bodies phoned the police .

What’s the problem exactly ?

Are we to assume he twiddled his thumbs , sat back and decided to call them 20 mins later ?
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February 15, 2015 4:38pm
stephieboy

Harriet, a Bible Believing rationale and apologetics against gun control. pp of the NRA too ?

Relevancy to NZ ?
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February 15, 2015 4:43pm
Harriet

“….Harriet, a Bible Believing rationale and apologetics against gun control. pp of the NRA too ?

Relevancy to NZ ?…”

Stephieboy,

Relevancy? …. Kiwis arn’t allowed to carry guns – so get yourself a Bible instead. 😎
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February 15, 2015 4:47pm
Viking2

Looks like Penny has some strong support for her attack on the WMany Wellington business reps have an intuitive faith in ’bigger is better’ territorial government. I say ‘territorial’ because it would be a lie to call Uber-City Wellington and Super-City Auckland “local government”. Two councils governing half the population of New Zealand may be government, but it is certainly not ’local’ government, on any measure.ellington amalgamation.

Here in Wellington the Chamber of Commerce and the Property Council have not bothered to offer their members any analysis, reasoning, or even debate, before joining the ’bigger is better’ campaign. Perhaps it is natural for business people to favour bigness – after all most probably regard growing bigger as the measure of success.

http://www.stephenfranks.co.nz/banal-business-naivete-on-politics-and-councils/
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February 15, 2015 4:49pm
Viking2

As decision time looms with the proposal to merge the five Hawke’s Bay councils into one super council based in Napier, a new group has formed in Hastings to fight amalgamation. Hastings Against Amalgamation is holding an initial meeting at the Havelock North Community Centre on Tuesday, February 24 at 7pm, to plan the next step should the Local Government Commission opt to proceed with amalgamation.

That next step is to collect around 4400 Hastings signatures to trigger a poll on the issue.

The Auckland councils amalgamated on November 1, 2010. Amalgamation there:

 Hiked rates by 8 percent in the first year.
 Increased debt by 30 percent in year one.
 Set up powerless local boards.
 Set up a Maori board that produced a $295-million spending plan for Maori.

Amalgamating the five existing councils in Hawke’s Bay into one super council with five local boards and a Maori board all based in Napier is likely to:

 Increase rates.
 Increase debt.
 Replace Hastings’ 14 councillors with six councillors and nine local board members.
 Introduce a Maori board and race-based spending.

http://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.co.nz/2015/02/mike-butler-hastings-resists.html
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February 15, 2015 4:50pm
stephieboy

Harriet , untrue NZ’s can carry and Used . licensed fire arms of a certain category but not Automatic weopans like Ak 47 s etc.

You obviously feel the bible prescribes a plethora of gun and weapons use aka the NRA ?

Our gun laws unbiblical ?
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February 15, 2015 4:53pm
kowtow

Multiculturalism Australian style.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/grand_mufti_legitimises_a_dangerous_anger/
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February 15, 2015 4:55pm
Harriet

Stephieboy,

I’m sure you can’t carry weapons in general in NZ such as they do in some US States – which is what I thought you were refeering to – general carrying of them.

You can kill [including with guns] under Christianity – you just can’t murder people. Defending yourself, and others[like wifes & kids], fighting under country, and capital punishment are justified. Paul in Acts points to it. There are other passages also.

This is current – the Bali Nine.

http://billmuehlenberg.com/2015/02/14/christians-crime-and-the-death-penalty/

Bill Muehlenberg is an American Christian who has been living in Aussie for 30yrs or so. He was widely on TV, papers ect in the 80’s and early 90’s – not so much now with the MSM siding with the progressives – but he is always before Senate Committees over social issues ect, and is a leading public figure in Australian Christianity.

I’m not saying that you will agree with him Stephie —- but he is informative. Cheers.
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February 15, 2015 5:08pm
Nostalgia-NZ

Your quite welcome to get yourself in the crap with the despatches from hq stephieboy, but your 4.21 appears to be breaching some order mentioned in the post above it. You might like to contact DPF about removing it as it also appears to be against the site rules.
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February 15, 2015 5:43pm
nasska

Harriet will turn us all into insomniacs! The thought of a bunch of tooled up, deranged Godnutters roaming the streets is the stuff of nightmares. 🙂
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February 15, 2015 5:52pm
Griff

At lest he/ she/ it has not had a rant about bum sex yet.
Using the usa as a poster case for lax guns laws is a little stupid.
They have 10x the gun murder rate than any other western Democratic country
Because the criminally inclined can buy and carry the fucken things just as easy .
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February 15, 2015 6:14pm
Odakyu-sen

At least the “Godnutters” tell it like they believe it.

Not so with the other side.
Cut-and-paste: Another noted Islamic scholar Ibn Kathir (1301-1373) wrote: “Whoever at any time or place fears their [infidels’] evil, may protect himself through outward show.” As proof of this, he quotes Muhammad’s companions. Abu Darda said:
“Let us smile to the face of some people while our hearts curse them.” Al-Hassan said: “Doing taqiyya is acceptable till the day of judgment [in perpetuity].”

Taqiyya is not a good strategy to ply before the West. I believe Western culture offers forgiveness if you confess and seek redemption, but this “taqiyya” kind of messes this up. How can Westerner ever know that a Muslim is repentant if this doctrine of taqiyya is in effect?

In the East it is a little simpler: no forgiveness and no forgetting. Ever.
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February 15, 2015 6:19pm
nasska

I admit that I can’t quite see how our transgendered friend is going to tie gun ownership in with one up the arse Griff.

Though I’m certain that we’ll find out soon. 🙂
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February 15, 2015 6:22pm
Manolo

The Australian public should be grateful, very grateful to Andrew Bolt, who does not mince his words when talking about barbaric Islam.
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February 15, 2015 6:25pm
Griff

Odakyu-sen

Muslims are god nutters as well..Exactly the same god Yahweh just a different prophet .
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February 15, 2015 6:25pm
Inandout

kowtow: That Grand Mufti should be put on notice – give up your inflammatory statements of piss off back to your camels. It really is getting serious in Aussie.
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February 15, 2015 6:26pm
Odakyu-sen

Griff,

There are “God nutters” and then there are “God nutters.” One group of them are blowing stuff up and raising merry Hell. The other group aren’t. You recon there could be a difference?

//
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February 15, 2015 6:34pm
cha

# dime – Holloway v Miller and I’m converted.
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February 15, 2015 6:43pm
Manolo

Will he be a follower of vile Islam? http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/02/15/denmark-shootings-copenhagen-police-say-killed-person-interest-in-shootout-at/

Copenhagen police killed a man near a train station during a shootout and are investigating whether he can be linked to two shootings that occurred hours earlier at a free speech event and at a synagogue.

Copenhagen police said that the shooting occurred after they had put an address near the station under observation. No officers were injured in the shooting.
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February 15, 2015 6:47pm
cha

Vile and vile Manolo.

https://twitter.com/alisa_deee/status/566730464195407872

https://twitter.com/alisa_deee/status/565500775569584128
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February 15, 2015 6:59pm
stephieboy

Nostalgia, which posting rules have I breached specifically ? Are you saying that am inferring that France’s Edwards lied when I never ,never inferred or suggested any such thing .
If you read my post carefully I indicated that there appears to be some contradiction between what she gave in evidence under cross examination by Mr Reed and what the police gave on 17/03 / 2009 nor what I understand she told the PCA and at the 1995 trial .
There is a huge difference between a lie and a mistake or an error but I repeat I never ever suggested she or anyone lied .
I take no orders from any hq including I take you as well ?
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February 15, 2015 7:09pm
UglyTruth

Taqiyya is not a good strategy to ply before the West. I believe Western culture offers forgiveness if you confess and seek redemption, but this “taqiyya” kind of messes this up. How can Westerner ever know that a Muslim is repentant if this doctrine of taqiyya is in effect?

Simply remind him that the Quran says that he should keep his promises and ask him to promise to tell you the truth.

In the East it is a little simpler: no forgiveness and no forgetting. Ever.

And the retribution for an evil act is an evil one like it, but whoever pardons and makes reconciliation – his reward is [due] from Allah. Indeed, He does not like wrongdoers.
Surah 42:40
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February 15, 2015 7:21pm
nasska

Ugly Truth

Does it ever occur to you that the Quran you quote is as far different to Islam as practised as a frog is to feathers? A little like in the case of our Christians the “book” is used to justify current actions & otherwise ignored or glossed over.

You are associating perfection with practise & they are totally different things.
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February 15, 2015 7:29pm
kowtow

Manolo

My money says he’ll be a Syrian war returnee who didn’t avail of the dhimmi Danish “rehabilitation” programmes on offer.
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February 15, 2015 7:31pm
Reid

nasska, does it ever occur to you and your fellow hallucinators that if all Muslims really did think what you think they think, the whole world let alone this tiny country would be a far far different place from the place that it in fact actually indeed indubitably is?

And does this clear, present and obvious evidential and undeniable discrepancy between the reality that everyone experiences on a daily basis vs the hallucination that you and your fellow hallucinators all have about Muslims, ever make any of you hallucinators actually pause even for a second to consider whether any one of you is just fucking nuts?

If not, why not? (Because we’re all standing around laughing and sniggering and the children are pointing at the funny men and trying not to be rude about it, and unless you all want to be utterly humiliated and eventually locked up by men in white coats, we think you should stop it.)

Just trying to help mate.
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February 15, 2015 7:36pm
Dave Mann

Dave and many others echo almost precisely what Hitler and his minions were saying about Judaism not so many years ago.

Reid, you’re totally wrong. Hitler persecuted a helpless and innocent people for the purpose of gaining power. I am advocating fighting back against a strong enemy which is attacking our civilization and is hell-bent on destroying us.

It’s simplistic and puerile to try to equate the two. You’re an idiot.
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February 15, 2015 7:41pm
nasska

Reid

I think you must be bitching about my tendency & the tendency of about six billion others to treat groupings as if each member of that group thought exactly as the other.

It’s normal to think that way. Because it is not possible to question the feelings & beliefs of each & every Muslim, or gay, or Eskimo our nature ensures that we make assessments based on common characteristics as we observe them. It’s a vital tool to our survival & probably helped our species to prosper. If we can make a quick judgement along the lines of, ‘there’s a sabre tooth tiger, sabre tooth tigers kill humans, therefore don’t cuddle’ it is generally all to the good.

I grant you that it’s not very fair & sometimes terribly cruel but there we have it.
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February 15, 2015 7:53pm
Sponge

“Dave and many others echo almost precisely what Hitler and his minions were saying about Judaism not so many years ago.”

Bollocks. How many Jews were running around removing peoples heads in the 30’s?
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February 15, 2015 7:58pm
cha

Some George.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZkb4TPI-Lo
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February 15, 2015 8:04pm
UglyTruth

Does it ever occur to you that the Quran you quote is as far different to Islam as practised as a frog is to feathers?

The hypocrites gain notoriety, but the devout generally don’t make the press.

A little like in the case of our Christians the “book” is used to justify current actions & otherwise ignored or glossed over.

Ever since Christianity was adopted as the official religion of the “civilized” world.

You are associating perfection with practise & they are totally different things.

Not totally, it depends on who you watch.
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February 15, 2015 8:08pm
Nostalgia-NZ

stephieboy, a suppression order since 2009 I gather. If not, no problem – just trying to let you know because it was in the link I put up – provided it’s one and the same person which it looks like. Don’t trust your links, they’ve got all sorts of people in the cart.
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February 15, 2015 8:10pm
UglyTruth

Reid, you’re totally wrong.

Reid has way more clues than you do, Dave.

Hitler persecuted a helpless and innocent people for the purpose of gaining power.

Hitler didn’t distinguish between the conspirators and the innocent, and he had power before he began his oppression, not as a result of it.

I am advocating fighting back against a strong enemy which is attacking our civilization and is hell-bent on destroying us.

You don’t even know who the enemy is.

It’s simplistic and puerile to try to equate the two. You’re an idiot.

No, he really isn’t.
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February 15, 2015 8:14pm
cha

For Johnboy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbfnP3nhghk
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February 15, 2015 8:38pm
kowtow

inandout

That grand muffler should not be put on notice……..

…..he should be put on a plane back to where he and his ideology came from.
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February 15, 2015 8:44pm
Reid

Hitler persecuted a helpless and innocent people for the purpose of gaining power.

So are Muslims being.

I am advocating fighting back against a strong enemy

No you’re not you’re advocating treating every single Muslim be it man woman or child as if they were a mortal and immediate threat to our way of life, which is fucking nuts.

which is attacking our civilization and is hell-bent on destroying us.

No these are the actions of a tiny tiny minority which the Western media for its own reasons pretends is a wide-spread sentiment when clearly it’s not on a factual and evidential basis.

This is precisely what the German media also did when Hitler’s campaign was just getting going. What? Do ya think the most civilised and educated people in Europe suddenly woke up and stood aside and let what happened, happen? Duh. Educate yourself, fool.

It’s simplistic and puerile to try to equate the two. You’re an idiot.

No I’m using an analogy which strikes as the heart of your towering and arrogant idiocy. For you and your ill-educated fellow hallucinators hallucinate don’t you that you are in fact (giggle) the canaries in the mine, don’t you. You fools really do believe, don’t you, that you’re the equivalent of Churchill in the Wilderness Years don’t you, wisely perceiving the looming threat that all the appeasers are blind to but you, you are just so wise, so perceptive, aren’t you. (chortle).

Well you’re not like that at all, ya fucking mentals. I mean duh. IF there was a threat it’s HARDLY hidden and subtle is it. Apart from anything else. IF there was a threat, which duh – there isn’t.

No, you morons are like the German people being sucked into a vortex of mindless hatred by clever propagandists and you can’t see and therefore think don’t exist.

That’s all you and your fellow morons are Dave, a 1930’s anti-Semite in training, except this time, you’ve got no excuse, because it’s been done before. If you fall for it this time, you are at serious risk of losing it all.
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February 15, 2015 8:45pm
Harriet

“….If we can make a quick judgement along the lines of, ‘there’s a sabre tooth tiger, sabre tooth tigers kill humans, therefore don’t cuddle’ it is generally all to the good.

I grant you that it’s not very fair & sometimes terribly cruel but there we have it….”

Quite so Nasska.

The moderate muslim basket so far is way too small for Western civilisation to put all of it’s eggs into.

Having said that I do understand that they are afraid to speak out as it does put a fatwa on their heads. – and that doesn’t mean the fatwa has to be ‘issued’ by an Iman – instead just some young Muslim who sees an ‘apostate’ – and then kills them.

But that is not an excuse for moderates to say ‘I’m not a killer’ while quitly supporting extremism by advocating for ‘some sharia’. As ‘some sharia’ can lead to the police being removed from an area – and harsh sharia then taking over – where women are then most of the victims. Suburbs in France and England for example.

Two peas of the same pod is what you could say about 50% of the so-called ‘moderates’.
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February 15, 2015 8:45pm
kowtow

reid

The Charlie Hebdo attack never happened, it was filmed in a studio in California,its all a CIA plot.
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February 15, 2015 8:58pm
wat dabney

“You can kill [including with guns] under Christianity – you just can’t murder people. Defending yourself, and others[like wifes & kids], fighting under country, and capital punishment are justified.”

‘Fighting under country’ is justified? Just like that?

Just another example of the creed’s total moral bankruptcy. Yes we invaded Poland and bombed Warsaw to pieces, but the Bible says it’s okay.

Who knew that the simple act of putting on a uniform is a license to kill? (well, Christians knew, obviously.)

And don’t forget that anyone who mows the lawn on the Sabbath must be stoned to death. Right after the adulterers, who are also noticeably missing from your list of righteous killings.
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February 15, 2015 9:03pm
Harriet

“….reid

The Charlie Hebdo attack never happened, it was filmed in a studio in California,its all a CIA plot…”

The red neck Sarah Palin was acting the female part.

Others may know more Kowtow.
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February 15, 2015 9:03pm
UglyTruth

Yet another example of the FBI’s modus operandi in the “war on terror”.

http://www.keysnet.com/2015/02/14/501241_fbi-informant-busted-in-key-west.html?rh=1

FBI Paid a Child Rapist 90k to Set-Up Two Mentally Disabled Patsies in Seattle

Key West police arrested Childs on July 4, 2014, after he rang up five transactions totaling $863.11 on a stolen American Express card at Johnny Rockets, where he had worked for about two months. The arresting officer, Janeth Calvert, then discovered that Childs had not registered as a sex offender as required by law.

As the Florida Center for Investigative Reporting discovered, Childs had been paid $90,000 for his work as an FBI informant in a controversial counterterrorism sting operation in Seattle.

Recording hundreds of hours of conversations, Childs led two mentally ill men — Abu Khalid Abdul-Latif and Walli Mujahidh — in a plot to attack a military recruiting station. As part of the sting, the FBI provided everything the trio needed for the plot, including the weapons.
A Human Rights Watch report last July criticized such FBI stings for targeting “particularly vulnerable people, including those with intellectual and mental disabilities and the indigent.”

Childs had reason to want to see Abdul-Latif behind bars. He owed thousands of dollars to Abdul-Latif and had tried to woo his wife away, according to Binta Moussa-Davis, Abdul-Latif’s wife
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February 15, 2015 9:03pm
renderer

Ugly Truth how do you scour the net and end up dredging up bullshit
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February 15, 2015 9:18pm
nasska

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ivwa7hi3btmi3jc/Fat%203.png?dl=0
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February 15, 2015 9:24pm
Reid

how do you scour the net and end up dredging up bullshit

Why don’t you ask Dave, kowtow or stephieboy renderer?

They do it all the time and they’re really good at it. I haven’t seen them come up with anything that isn’t bullshit for ages.
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February 15, 2015 9:24pm
Harriet

‘Fighting under country’ is justified? Just like that?

Just another example of the creed’s total moral bankruptc

——————————-

Let’s call it something else then since you are so confused.

Following the Rules of War.

There is God’s Law and Man’s law.

God tells us to follow His Law and ALSO follow man’s law – and also tells us that we can OPPOSE Man’s law – like voting against current government legislation, peaceful protest, – and even being a draft dodger[if it’s legal].ect.

All that Christians do – if they are real Christians and read their Bibles – is APPLY God’s Laws – to their lives. The Bible gives good advice by way of example.

Btw, if you don’t know the basics of Christianity , then I suggest you read up on it via wiki ect[unless you want to go to the Catholic education portal] because you have a tendancy to just ‘jump on in’ with accusations that don’t do you any favours for the intellect that you seem to show at other times. Cheers Wat.
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February 15, 2015 9:25pm
Rowan

Stupidboy
Do you have the exact time of arrival of Glen Weggery? it looks like it was some time after 9.30 a.m. What time was the 111 call?
The timing is very approximate, how are we supposed to know exactly how long he was there, it could have been 15-20 minutes or more. The Bain timings are also approximate in exactly the same way, we know (not in dispute between prosecution and defence) that David arrived home at around 6.45am as per Denise Laney’s evidence, The 111 call was made at some stage between then and 7.09am when it was transferred. It is impossible to be accurate to the minute as to when the call was made, which you seem to want me to be able to just be able to give you.
You are presuming Mr Weggerys call was instantaneous whereas you would drag out Davids call as far as possible to make it try and look bad for him. That’s called picking and choosing what you want to believe Stupidboy, be consistent here!
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February 15, 2015 10:43pm
Jack5

The Muslims are winning the battle to shut down free speech, to control what we say.

The BBC, TVNZ, Radio NZ all in their reports of the Copenhagen terrorism are straining to down play, even keep out, the word “Islamic” from their reports. You have to deduce the terrorists much be Islamic because of the target – a discussion on free speech and content from someone who offended Muslim religious sensibilities.

The cowards within ….
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February 15, 2015 11:05pm
fylde

Terrible act in Copenhagen. The Danish softly softly rehab policies not working
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February 16, 2015 6:33am
UglyTruth

You have to deduce the terrorists much be Islamic because of the target

Why is it that all the Muslim haters on Kiwiblog are complete retards?
I guarantee that not one of them can tell you how the alleged Muslims of 9/11 could cover up the nuclear demolition of the twin towers.
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February 16, 2015 7:11am
IGM

ut: The only retards on this post are the likes of you. Muslims are, like you, dross of our flimsy, yet still decent society. You need mental help with comments like the above.
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February 16, 2015 7:23am
UglyTruth

God tells us to follow His Law and ALSO follow man’s law

What “God” is that?

“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God,” ~ Liar and false apostle.

“But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.”
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February 16, 2015 7:25am
UglyTruth

Do you deny that the destruction of the twin towers involved a nuclear explosion, or are you just another a retard who can’t face the facts, IGM?
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February 16, 2015 7:27am
Shawn Herles

“Why is it that all the Muslim haters on Kiwiblog are complete retards?”

Retards are people who think rocks are squirrels, that the Earth is hollow, and that a single individual with mental health issues ranting on a blog is an “International Court.”

You cannot get more retarded than those comments.

“I guarantee that not one of them can tell you how the alleged Muslims of 9/11 could cover up the nuclear demolition of the twin towers.”

Nobody needs to, as there was no nuclear demolition. Only retards think 911 was an inside job.
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February 16, 2015 7:27am
Shawn Herles

“What “God” is that?”

The true and living God, the one revealed exclusively in the Bible.

Not to be confused with Satan, the fallen angel you worship.
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February 16, 2015 7:34am
IGM

UT: Suppose Muslims don’t strap bombs to their infants and send them into crowds blowing them up . . . you fool!
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February 16, 2015 7:39am
UglyTruth

Retards are people who think rocks are squirrels, that the Earth is hollow, and that a single individual with mental health issues ranting on a blog is an “International Court.”

Rocks are not squirrels. It doesn’t stop having eyes, legs, a tail, and a desert squirrel’s markings just because you think that it can’t be a squirrel.
I know the hollow Earth is difficult to accept, but the geological evidence, the photographs, and the witnesses say otherwise.
Kevin Arnett is not an international court.

Fact is, Shawn, that you don’t like me exposing Paul as a liar, and you respond by making shit up.
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February 16, 2015 7:40am
Shawn Herles

“You have to deduce the terrorists much be Islamic because of the target”

Correct. The target in question being a debate on free speech and Islam, but also a synagogue was attacked as well.

That combination means it was Muslims. A lesser possibility is that it was white Jew haters spouting the kind of vile filth EAD and Reid are fond of. But the more likely suspects are Muslims.
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February 16, 2015 7:40am
UglyTruth

Nobody needs to, as there was no nuclear demolition.

If there was no nuclear demolition, then where did the energy come from that caused the following?
1. 700C+ hotspots days after the event.
2. reports of molten steel at the site, like a foundry.
3. persistent heat that took millions of gallons of water to cool down.
4. underground fires that burned for months.

Only retards believe that sub 100C oxygen starved office fires can cause this.
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February 16, 2015 7:45am
IGM

The scenario should be: No more Muslims allowed entry into NZ, those here must be stringently monitored, mosques banned, and if they don’t like it, well there are plenty of flights to the Middle East, also plenty prepared to contribute towards their return.
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February 16, 2015 7:47am
Shawn Herles

“It doesn’t stop having eyes, legs, a tail, and a desert squirrel’s markings just because you think that it can’t be a squirrel.”

It did not have any of those things. It was obviously a rock.

“I know the hollow Earth is difficult to accept”

It is totally brainless.

“but the geological evidence, the photographs, and the witnesses say otherwise.”

There is no geological evidence or photographs or witnesses. This is all just dumbass crap you have read on a conspiracy web site.

NOTHING written on those sites is evidence of anything except how gullible some very stupid people are.

“Kevin Arnett is not an international court.”

And yet you claimed he was. You were retarded enough to simply swallow that claim, until someone with vastly more braincells than you proved otherwise.

“Fact is, Shawn, that you don’t like me exposing Paul as a liar,”

You have never done so. Nothing you have claimed on that subject is credible. You have no idea about Biblical exegesis, and your attempts to interpret what Scripture is saying would rightly be laughed at at any major university you care to name.

The truth is, your a moron.
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February 16, 2015 7:47am
Shawn Herles

“If there was no nuclear demolition, then where did the energy come from that caused the following?”

Thats just more shit you read on a conspiracy web site.

Conspiracy web sites are not valid sources of evidence.
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February 16, 2015 7:51am
Griff

Shawn you a being a little hard on retards
Retards dont think due to a lack of brain capacity as a result of accident or birth defect.
Ugly is a loon.
Loon thinking isn’t connected to any known reality.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong
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February 16, 2015 7:53am
Dennis Horne

UglyTruth. Feb 16 at 7:27am: … the destruction of the twin towers involved a nuclear explosion,

Didn’t look like a nuclear explosion. Looked just like it was hit by heavy aircraft that set fire to it.

Aren’t special effects marvellous these days?
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February 16, 2015 7:53am
UglyTruth

That combination means it was Muslims.

Of course the possibility that it was someone who wanted it to look like Muslims doesn’t enter Captain Bubblehead’s tiny mind.

Operation Gladio is a historical fact, and there is a wealth of evidence that says that the game has changed to use Muslim extremists instead of neo-fascists.
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February 16, 2015 7:54am
Shawn Herles

“Shawn you a being a little hard on retards”

Just throwing Ugly’s accusation back at him. To be fair, I would give the average “retard” far more credit for intelligence than a guy to dumb to distinguish a rock from a squirrel.
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February 16, 2015 7:55am
UglyTruth

Thats just more shit you read on a conspiracy web site.

Wrong yet again, Captain.

A report by Waste Age describes New York Sanitation Department workers moving “everything from molten steel beams to human remains.”

A report on the Government Computer News website quotes Greg Fuchek, vice president of sales for LinksPoint Inc. as stating:
In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel

A Messenger-Inquirer report recounts the experiences of Bronx firefighter “Toolie” O’Toole, who stated that some of the beams lifted from deep within the catacombs of Ground Zero by cranes were “dripping from the molten steel.”

Conspiracy web sites are not valid sources of evidence.

You don’t get to exclude evidence simply because it points to a conspiracy.
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February 16, 2015 7:58am
Shawn Herles

“Of course the possibility that it was someone who wanted it to look like Muslims doesn’t enter Captain Bubblehead’s tiny mind.”

Of course not. It does not enter any sane persons mind.

“Operation Gladio is a historical fact”

So?

“and there is a wealth of evidence that says that the game has changed to use Muslim extremists instead of neo-fascists.”

There is no evidence at all, just more brainless crap on conspiracy web sites that pray on the gullible and easily led.
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February 16, 2015 8:00am
Shawn Herles

The molten steel issue does not prove anything about it being nuclear. People who actually understand the science involved have explained this to you, but you don’t care about facts or science when it does not suit you.

“You don’t get to exclude evidence simply because it points to a conspiracy.”

Nothing written on a conspiracy web site is evidence.
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February 16, 2015 8:02am
UglyTruth

Didn’t look like a nuclear explosion. Looked just like it was hit by heavy aircraft that set fire to it.

The nuclear event happened later, and caused the collapse.

You can see how the granite was melted away here:
http://stateofthenation2012.com/?p=7858
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February 16, 2015 8:03am
UglyTruth

The molten steel issue does not prove anything about it being nuclear.

You are avoiding the problem of where the energy came from, Captain.
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February 16, 2015 8:05am
Shawn Herles

“The nuclear event happened later, and caused the collapse.”

No it didn’t.

“You can see how the granite was melted away here:”

Not at all. That source is not valid. It’s a conspiracy web site for the deranged and deluded.
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February 16, 2015 8:06am
UglyTruth

There is no evidence at all, just more brainless crap on conspiracy web sites that pray on the gullible and easily led.

So in your mind if it suggests conspiracy then it cannot be evidence?
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February 16, 2015 8:07am
Shawn Herles

“You are avoiding the problem of where the energy came from”

Again, this has been explained to you before. You just do not care for the hard truth that it was your Muslim friends who did it.
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February 16, 2015 8:08am
Shawn Herles

“So in your mind if it suggests conspiracy then it cannot be evidence?”

If it is written on a conspiracy web site, then no, it is not evidence. Conspiracy web sites peddle all manner of dumbass stupidity, from Elvis being alive and living on the moon, to rocks magically turning into squirrels, and Nazi UFO’s in Antarctica.

Nothing on those sites is valid evidence for anything at all except how easily fooled and led you are.
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February 16, 2015 8:11am
UglyTruth

“You are avoiding the problem of where the energy came from”

Again, this has been explained to you before.

You are a liar, Shawn.
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February 16, 2015 8:12am
Shawn Herles

“You are a liar, Shawn.”

People using conspiracy web sites are liars. And I have seen the many debates where the molten steel issue was explained to you.

You just wait a few days then repeat the claims anyway.

That is lying.
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February 16, 2015 8:13am
UglyTruth

Nothing on those sites is valid evidence for anything at all except how easily fooled and led you are.

Photographs of huge holes in the granite bedrock where the twin towers used to be is evidence of a highly energetic event.
The fact that you don’t like the source doesn’t stop them from being valid evidence.
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February 16, 2015 8:15am
UglyTruth

People using conspiracy web sites are liars.

A liar and and slanderer. You’re really top shelf stuff, aren’t you guy?

And I have seen the many debates where the molten steel issue was explained to you.

So what was the crux of the argument that explains it?

You just wait a few days then repeat the claims anyway.

That is lying.

Not when my claims are true it isn’t.

I posted a summary of evidence in my 7:45, but you have got nothing but ad hominems and lies.
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February 16, 2015 8:21am

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