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January 25, 2015 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 25 January 2015

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freemark

@ MT_Tinman

I took (for a first date) a slightly air-headed but very cute Air NZ trolley dolly to a NZ-AUS 1 day match at Eden Park in the early 90’s..was it a World Cup game?
We won..as I recall it was M Crowe & a few others vs Matthews, Dean Jones, Border(?) etc – I remember a big mid field catching collision by the Aussies that was crucial to the result & raised the crowd.
Understandably I was fairly distracted, and in those days it took longer to drink the beer than it did to buy it…
We have a pretty solid team this year, be disappointing if we don’t at least make the semi’s of the World Cup.
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January 25, 2015 4:29pm
freemark

cha (4,264 comments) says:
January 25th, 2015 at 4:18 pm

Gosh, it’s probably very unequal, neo-liberal, misogynist & racist too….
Good on them I say, whoever made it, did it, saw it, appreciated it…
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January 25, 2015 4:33pm
MT_Tinman

freemark, I was living in Timaru in ’92 with a young family and a very big (for the day) mortgage so only saw the games in ChCh and Dunedin live.

I agree it will be disappointing if NZ don’t at least make the semis but there are six teams (NZ, Oz, Pakistan, SL, England and India) who could win the thing.

OD cricket is very much an “on-the-day” thing so as long as NZ perform to the best of their ability I won’t be that unhappy (just grumpy as hell 🙂 ) no matter where they finish.
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January 25, 2015 4:43pm
Manolo

Savagery beyond description: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/world/middleeast/japan-hostages-video-islamic-state.html?_r=0

TOKYO — Japan’s prime minister expressed outrage on Sunday at an image released Saturday that appeared to show the decapitated body of one of two Japanese hostages captured by Islamic State militants, and President Obama condemned what he called a “brutal murder.”
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January 25, 2015 4:56pm
Manolo

Is the Messiah a closet Muslim?
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January 25, 2015 4:58pm
Nostalgia-NZ

Nookin: What do you make of the JR settlement? Taking into account that some argued that JR didn’t apply in these circumstances, (would you argue that the JR for which it was stated by some, couldn’t be settled as it had no standing), couldn’t or should not have been settled? Or secondly, that as the settlement takes the application right back to where it was understood it would end up, via the Minister’s office, to cabinet – is indicative of anything?
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January 25, 2015 5:04pm
Chuck Bird

@Nookin

Why have a go at Rachael. She was responding to Rowan’s name calling post. It is the pro David Bain ones who come out with the abuse and the childish name calling.

The following from flipper on 23 Jan.

“Before climbing down from the red neck perch inhabited by stupid boy, squirtbruv, bird brain and a few others, go read “Who killed Scott Guy” by Mike White “.

I have every right to post on what could be a complete travesty of justice.

As I said in my early post if TV One or RadioLive thought there was a chance of David Bain suing for defamation they would not allow people to say he is guilty on there FB.

You are right to some extent that no one can say for certain who did it. If it was all that clear he would have been convicted a second time or the PV would have recommended a pardon. From memory they recommended he stay in jail till the retrial.

I am part of a group but not a spokesman. However, many in the group knew the Bain family particularly Aware and Laniet. Some of these people have not just been subject to verbal abuse and name calling on the internet but serious death threats.

We will not go away until justice is done.
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January 25, 2015 5:04pm
Pete George

six teams (NZ, Oz, Pakistan, SL, England and India) who could win the thing

South Africa would just about have to be favourites.
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January 25, 2015 5:12pm
Rachael Membery

Chuck Bird (4,998 comments) says:

January 25th, 2015 at 5:04 pm

Was he/she? lol, I thought Nookin was referring to everyone else ;). Such ambiguity:) I think this is the perfect place to learn all about the case, such expertise and insight, such perspicacity that I think it is only fair to think that there is experience. Birds of a feather and some such.
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January 25, 2015 5:25pm
Nookin

Nost.
We do not know what the settlement is. Procedurally, the proceedings were withdrawn. No orders, nothing to go by. I would like to have seen a decision, purely out of interest as to how the court would deal with the legal issue.

We can only guess what they may have agreed upon. The worst scenario for Bain is that Adams takes the Binnie report and the Fisher review to cabinet which has doubts and starts over. For Michael et al, the worst case is that the Crown has agreed to disregard the Fisher review. I do not think cabinet can and will do that.

The answer, I think, is in between. Reed or Karam made the comment that Adams has taken a principled approach. The cynic in me suggests that , at least according to Karam, this means that Adams agrees with Karam. More likely, they have agreed on procedure. Reed will submit on Fisher and maybe produce new material and argument.
The bottom line is that it had better be transparent.
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January 25, 2015 5:33pm
MT_Tinman

Pete George (23,987 comments) says:
January 25th, 2015 at 5:12 pm

South Africa would just about have to be favourites.

Nope. Chokers.
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January 25, 2015 5:35pm
Nookin

Chuck, i know its hot but not brain frying hot. I wasnt having a go at Rachael at all. I wholeheartedly agree with her sentiment.
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January 25, 2015 5:35pm
Nookin

Chokers? One might say the same about the orblax till 2011. Indeed, many did. SA will be tough, especially with Steyn, Phillander, Amla to say nothing of the other guy who is scoring runs at will.
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January 25, 2015 5:47pm
Rowan

Drr Chuck
The petition to the PC was for a retrial, hence that’s what they got, the petition wasn’t for a complete acquittal which Reed said they would have gone for if they knew what they knew know.
And justice has long been done with the rightful acquittal 5 years ago, get over it.
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January 25, 2015 5:48pm
Rowan

Dickleberry @ 3.22

No the only thing I have that you don’t is called common sense, it’s really not that difficult to work out the truth.
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January 25, 2015 5:52pm
Chuck Bird

Sorry Nookin, I misinterpreted your comment.

The whole system of compensation needs to be changed.

There needs to be a panel and their finding and reasoning have to be made public. Three would be enough. They should also be not all lawyers.

Lawyer and judge are not adequately trained.
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January 25, 2015 5:57pm
Rachael Membery

Rowan (2,670 comments) says:

January 25th, 2015 at 5:48 pm

Hindsight, I am sure that there is no reason not to petition the P.C. for as many remedies as were available. One would think that only having one shot (for normal petitioners) that one would want value for money.

Is that like Joe saying that ‘they’ would have accepted the Binnie report regardless of its unsolicited ‘recommendations’?

Personally I think there have been more than enough ‘fair sucks of the sav;. (Coll.)
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January 25, 2015 6:00pm
Rachael Membery

Rowan (2,671 comments) says:

January 25th, 2015 at 5:52 pm

Even uses the same terms as that ‘other bird of a feather’. Come out, come out wherever you are? Is that a prison term?
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January 25, 2015 6:04pm
stephieboy

Reid at 4. 17 pm ,,the claim that Obama’s college records including belonare under seal is a blatant lie .His records are treated in the same way as any other under graduate or graduate including e.g GWB’s academic record at Yale,

Claims #1, 2 and 4, college records. Obama’s college records are not “sealed” by a court order, as this graphic would have you believe. It would be illegal under federal law (the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act of 1974) for Occidental, Columbia or Harvard Law School to give any former student’s records to reporters or members of the public without that person’s specific, written permission. Obama hasn’t released them, but neither have other presidential candidates released their college records. George W. Bush’s grades at Yale eventually became public, but only because somebody leaked them to the New Yorkermagazine. Bush himself refused to release them, according to a 1999 profile in the Washington Post.
Claim #3, thesis paper. Obama did write a paper on nuclear disarmament for an honors course in American foreign policy during his senior year, but it wasn’t the sort of “thesis” that some colleges require for graduation and keep on file in their libraries, like those that Hillary Clinton and Michelle Obama released. During the 2008 campaign, reporters were told that Columbia had not retained a copy of Obama’s 1983 paper, and that Obama didn’t have a copy, either. NBC News contacted his former professor, Michael Baron, who said he looked for his copy but couldn’t find it, and thought he probably tossed it out eight years earlier in a move.
NBC quoted Baron as saying the paper likely would have disappointed Obama’s critics. “The course was not a polemical course, it was a course in decision making and how decisions got made,” Baron told NBC. “None of the papers in the class were controversial. ..”

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/07/obamas-sealed-records/

http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/bookmarks/fact-checking-and-debunking/the-debunkers-guide-to-obama-conspiracy-theories/
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January 25, 2015 6:05pm
Ryan Sproull

This will entertain very few people, but I believe a few of those few people are here. Probably Lucia and Shawn, for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x2SvqhfevE

The Very Model of a Biblical Philologist.
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January 25, 2015 6:07pm
MT_Tinman

Nookin (3,611 comments) says:
January 25th, 2015 at 5:47 pm
Chokers? One might say the same about the orblax till 2011. Indeed, many did. SA will be tough, especially with Steyn, Phillander, Amla to say nothing of the other guy who is scoring runs at will.

De Villiers.

The orblax had won one tournament before 2011.

I read a comment by a real cricket commentator recently that noted SA will not admit they’ve choked previously (a bit like those orblax).

His conclusion was that that until they do they won’t stop choking. Face it the orblax did again in 2011, only a friendly referee and a brilliant captain saved them.

I agree with that commentator, hence my six possible winners (though not necessary finalists).
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January 25, 2015 6:20pm
stephieboy

Rowan, again you like Nostalgia have completely ducked the pertinent questions I raised ,

1. Have the defence been in contact with Vincent Di Miao s requesting him to examine the issue about Robin Bain’s right handeness etc with feedback on likelihoods and probabilities etc ?

2. Asked the world expert about the so called “upward trajectory” and compared it with Dr Dempsters contrary conclusions about likelihood of suicude .

3 Vincent Di Dias might also comment on the lack of forensic evidence implicating Robin such as the lack of fingerprints ,unlike his two sons who left theirs This after an energetic mass shooting with bloody hands including misfires etc .

Would you for once not resort to verbal abuse that has been your stock and trade from the beginning .
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January 25, 2015 6:26pm
nasska

Ryan

Reminds me of a definition of an expert:

“One who knows more & more about less & less until finally he knows everything about nothing.”
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January 25, 2015 6:28pm
Rowan

Yes Stupidboy
Di Maios study is case specific and takes into account all those variables. Despite you continuously harping on about lack of Robins fingerprints, this means little as you well know there were multiple fingerprints on the gun which could have belonged to him and also the odds of him leaving identifiable prints in the first place are pretty low. As to David’s prints we know that these are not in blood and Robin would be unlikely to grip the rifle from the forestock where the prints were found, so is unlikely to have disturbed them. Again your argument has no substance and you like the crown at the retrial have no other explanation for the shot other than that it was self inflicted.
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January 25, 2015 6:52pm
Rachael Membery

Rowan (2,672 comments) says:

January 25th, 2015 at 6:52 pm

‘we know that these are not in blood and..’ Who’s we? I thought that ‘animal blood’ was put forward as the ‘likely’ source. Now you are saying not blood at all. Nothing like a bit of discombobulation.

So what are the fingerprints in?

I still think the defence should have accepted the bloody footprints as David’s, otherwise he walked in the rooms and left no prints.
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January 25, 2015 7:01pm
freemark

On the Bain case.
If Robin did it (and there is plenty of plausible evidence to suggest this) it’s case closed and David may well deserve some recompense for time served.
If David did it..it’s not too hard to sympathise, by any account it was a pretty fucked up family, he’s done more time than many and is hardly likely to reoffend – just let him live a quiet life, pay some tax, buy some new jumpers.
I met Joe Karam at a bbq once, seemed like a decent guy but who really knows what is anyone’s head.
I’m surprised that anyone remains so passionate/aggressive about it – even if some compensation was paid it is a small drop compared to the day to day troughing that goes on in NZ.
There are bigger fish to fry….
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January 25, 2015 7:10pm
Gulag1917

The great sellout that began decades ago
Why is Westminster Abbey honouring the king of a country where Christianity is banned?
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/01/why-is-westminster-abbey-honouring-the-king-of-a-country-where-christianity-is-illegal/
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January 25, 2015 7:19pm
Rachael Membery

freemark (773 comments) says:

January 25th, 2015 at 7:10 pm

I would suggest that the second jury felt similarly, time served, move on, but they did not have to consider compensation. If the subject had come up who knows if they would have acquitted. Reasonable doubt is just that.

That is not reasonable doubt giving you the right to compensation outside of the accepted guidelines.
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January 25, 2015 7:23pm
waikatogirl

freemark: even if some compensation was paid it is a small drop compared to the day to day troughing that goes on in NZ.
***

I wouldn’t call $8-10 million a small drop of taxpayers money!
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January 25, 2015 8:03pm
freemark

Who is talking $8-10 Million?
This will never happen, and shouldn’t, unless extremists make too much noise.
Or it becomes an overly politicised issue with attacks against Ministers due to their Party rather than the circumstances of the case.
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January 25, 2015 8:16pm
Nostradamus

Freemark:

We could settle the matter this way:

– Taxpayers who think David Bain is innocent pay more tax (they contribute to his compensation bill).
– Taxpayers who think David Bain is guilty pay the same tax (they don’t contribute to his compensation bill).

Given your statement – “it is a small drop” – I think you belong to the first category. The IRD should be in touch shortly to discuss your contribution to the Bain compensation fund.

How does that sound to you? 🙂
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January 25, 2015 8:26pm
Lucia Maria

Ryan,

Your, um, Biblical Philologist is a bit beyond me. Probably funny to those in the know, but that’s not me!
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January 25, 2015 8:27pm
Rachael Membery

freemark (774 comments) says:

January 25th, 2015 at 8:16 pm

Pretty sure that that was the calculation mooted by Joe Karam or based on his comment that compensation should be calculated (no doubt inflation adjusted) in relation to David Dougherty’s.
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January 25, 2015 8:41pm
Chuck Bird

Let DB see how much he gets on give-a-little.
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January 25, 2015 8:59pm
nasska

I’ve given Nostra’s 8.26 suggestion a lot of thought & I have to go along with him. It’s a brilliant opportunity for the nutters to put their OWN money where their mouths are.

And a squadron of baconers will be doing aerobatics up & down the Waikato River the day that happens. 🙂
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January 25, 2015 9:06pm
Rowan

Dickleberry
Your not very smart are you? And no the prints were not on any sort of blood, human or animal. The rifle has been subject to various tests over the years starting in 1997 and despite vigorous testing managed, no traces of blood or DNA was found in the fingerprint sample whatsoever. Also if you look at the second trial fingerprint evidence, you will see that what Kim Jones the crown “expert” told the 1995 jury is that when he shined his polilight over the wooden surface of the rifle that the bloody area ‘fluoresced’ back at him. This was shown to be completely untrue as blood does not ‘fluoresce’ at all, rather it shows up as dark and the background will fluoresce. In other words Kim Jones lied to the jury by telling them what he wanted them to hear despite knowing it to be untrue. Everything else he said at the retrial was similarly shown to be wrong and he was probably the least credible of any of the witnesses as he disagreed with several other experts from both the crown and the defence.
The prints were shown to be latent prints, refer to the evidence of the English expert Carl Lloyd if you want to see all the reasoning why.
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January 25, 2015 9:12pm
stephieboy

Rowan, not in blood ? how is that arrived at given Clive Lloyd arrived at that conclusion some 15 years after Ken Jiones and Peter Hentschell had examined David ‘s gun a day or two after the murders s By that time loud had examined it had deteriorated to such an extent that it was in fact difficult to determine what it was .Loylld ‘s conclusion was therefore based on conjecture .

A vital item of evidence that the defence was anxious to discredit including trying to smear Ken Jones .

Multiple fingerpirints could of belonged to Robin ? That’s it “-.could. ” of ! And they could of equally belong to David That rifle had shown signs of been wiped down smudging the prints .Now why would Robin try to conceal or remove his prints if he was going to sucide ?This reminds us that the crime scene showed evidence of someone trying to cover up their trail ( e.g the untraceable typed computer message ) .Robin would have no reason to do either if intent on murder/,suicide .

Odds on him not leaving fingerprints ? Why precisely ?

We can now safely conclude that the defence has had no contact with Vincent Di Maio ?
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January 25, 2015 9:20pm
Rachael Membery

Good to see the good old prison vernacular getting an airing Rowan.
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January 25, 2015 9:34pm
stephieboy

Rowan , unttrue Shortly after murders scientist, Dr Cropp, said he was given five plastic tubes with blood samples scraped from the rifle. His testing confirmed the five samples were human blood and four of them were of one particular type. The blood could have come from David, Stephen or Laniet, but not from the rest of the family.

Also there was a huge amount of blood in Stephen’s room. The killers gloves were literally dripping with blood, without doubt there would have been plenty of blood deposited on the rifle.

Lloyd only had the oppotunity to examine the rifle at least 15 years later r.By that time the original deposits had sufficiently deterioted for Lloyd make a definitive determination

Who in 1997 and after determined it was not human DNA .?
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January 25, 2015 9:35pm
Chuck Bird

“If David did it..it’s not too hard to sympathise, by any account it was a pretty fucked up family,”

@freemark

A lot of people have fucked families. They do not murder them let alone get paid by the taxpayer for doing so.
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January 25, 2015 9:50pm
Left Right and Centre

White trash tat of the day:

Young skinny white girl – tat covered upper and middle of back. Two revolvers pointing away from each other and up on a 45 degree angle with a mess of shit joining them in the middle and below. Or something.
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January 25, 2015 9:58pm
stephieboy

Chuckbird, nice one.

To contine re blood on the David’s gun,

Assessments made by the original ESR scientist were of the opinion that the finger impressions on the gun were in human blood.

From the PCA Report (section 276). Note that references to trial are for the original trial in 1995.

” Mr Hentschel gave evidence at the trial of obtaining five samples of blood from the rifle to pass on to Dr Cropp for analysis. He stated that ” … blood was taken from the silencer, from the front of the telescopic sight, from the barrel, from the stock near the trivger and also from the fore arm from where those fingerprints were found…”. Dr Cropp, ESR, then gave evidence at the trial “that the five samples were all identified as human blood.” The blood on the rifle [silencer, barrel, and wood near the trigger] was able to be grouped to Stephen’s, Laniet’s or David’s.

These initial tests were later reviewed (section 277):

As part of the Review, Dr Harbison examined the case notes of Mr Hentschel and Dr Cropp and conducted a series of tests. Mr Hentschel conducted a chemical test (Sangur) on areas of probable blood staining on the rifle the results of which were positive (ie. indicates the presence of blood.) Those samples were further analysed by Dr Cropp who conducted an ouchterlony test, which is a test that detects the presence of a human protein. These tests on the samples, and in particular, the area around the fingerprint, were also positive.? Dr t1arbison’s opinion was that the original two tests conducted by Mr Hentschel from blood being wiped across its surface. Mr Hentschel gave evidence at the trial that “, .. smears of blood were found over most parts of the rifle” … and “blood being wiped across the surface.,. Senior Fingerprint Officer Jones said in his statement to the review team that” … it was almost like it [rifle] had been wiped down with something soaked in blood … ” but he also agreed that it could be just covered in blood because someone in the course of a fight has been covered in blood and contaminated the gun.”

I think therefore we need to give much greater credence to the original examination So much closer to the time of the murders than Carl lLoyd’s which was a considerable time .later .It gave him room to speculate as the original blood samples had sufficiently deteriorated by the time he got his hands on them .

But another example why David Bain fails the onus of proof test under the Cabinet guidelines. It may if served him well in 2009 but not in the compo claim .
i
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January 25, 2015 10:24pm
Rowan

Bollocks Stupidboy
The gun was not wiped down, we have been through this before, if it had been then there would not have been any fingerprints on it, There is absolutely no evidence that it was wiped and the presence of multiple fingerprints proves that it wasn’t.

Cropps original sample did not come from the fingerprints but was in an area adjacent to them. The reason why the prints are not made in blood is that despite extensive testing no blood or human dna has been found in the prints.
Also Jones claims at the retrial were ridiculous, he tried to say that fingerprint definition increases under pressure and that the ridges in the photo were white when they should have been black (if there was blood present) because “the photo was a negative” which the police photographer confirmed it wasn’t. He would have been the least credible witness in the entire trial, and that you would believe his “evidence” says that you are a loon who doesn’t know what he’s talking about (but we already knew that!)
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January 25, 2015 10:31pm
Rowan

Lloyds conclusion was infact based on science and common sense whereas Kim Jones’s were based on lies. However old the prints were by the time of the retrial the basic facts haven’t changed
1. No blood or traces of human dna have ever been found in the fingerprint samples despite extensive testing.
2. Blood does not and never has ‘fluoresced’ under a polilight examination.
3. The ridge colour in the evidential photograph was white and not black.
4. The fingerprints were very well defined and this is totally inconsistent with them being bloody unless you buy Jones’s ridiculous suggestion that “fingerprint definition increases under pressure” – right!
Therefore Stupidboys and the entire crown argument fails thanks to Kim Jones.
He was able to fudge the facts in 1995 by telling the jury what he wanted them to hear (knowing it to be untrue) but was well in truly exposed in 2009.
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January 25, 2015 10:41pm
Eureka

Australians all let us rejoice,
For we are young and free;
We’ve golden soil and wealth for toil,
Our home is girt by sea;
Our land abounds in Nature’s gifts
Of beauty rich and rare;
In history’s page, let every stage
Advance Australia fair!
In joyful strains then let us sing,
“Advance Australia fair!”

When gallant Cook from Albion sail’d,
To trace wide oceans o’er,
True British courage bore him on,
Till he landed on our shore.
Then here he raised Old England’s flag,
The standard of the brave;
With all her faults we love her still,
“Brittannia rules the wave!”
In joyful strains then let us sing
“Advance Australia fair!”

Beneath our radiant southern Cross,
We’ll toil with hearts and hands;
To make this Commonwealth of ours
Renowned of all the lands;
For those who’ve come across the seas
We’ve boundless plains to share;
With courage let us all combine
To advance Australia fair.
In joyful strains then let us sing
“Advance Australia fair!”

While other nations of the globe
Behold us from afar,
We’ll rise to high renown and shine
Like our glorious southern star;
From England, Scotia, Erin’s Isle,
Who come our lot to share,
Let all combine with heart and hand
To advance Australia fair!
In joyful strains then let us sing
“Advance Australia fair!”

Shou’d foreign foe e’er sight our coast,
Or dare a foot to land,
We’ll rouse to arms like sires of yore
To guard our native strand;
Brittannia then shall surely know,
Beyond wide ocean’s roll,
Her sons in fair Australia’s land
Still keep a British soul.
In joyful strains the let us sing
“Advance Australia fair!”
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January 25, 2015 11:36pm
Manolo

The flesh is weak, but stephieboy will deny his idol ever did it: http://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/world/bill-clinton-visited-epsteins-orgy-island-new-interview/ar-AA8ypwM?ocid=mailsignoutmd

Former American presidient Bill Clinton enjoyed a wild romp in 2002 on convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein’s “orgy island” with “two young girls” from New York, according to reports.

In an interview obtained by Radaronline.com, Virginia Roberts, who has accused Epstein of forcing her to become a sex slave at age 17, detailed Mr Clinton’s stay on the US Virgin Islands estate where she claims to have bedded British royal Prince Andrew.

“I remember asking Jeffrey, ‘What’s Bill Clinton doing here?’, and he laughed it off and said, ‘Well, he owes me a favour’,” Roberts told her lawyers in the recording dated 2011.
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January 26, 2015 6:33am

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