General Debate 20 January 2015

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Jack5

I agree with waikatogirl at 12.20: There are worse things than death.

Do religions oppose euthanasia and suicide because they undermine their “perpetual life” proposition? If you see through that, then these measures can be assessed and debated more rationally.
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January 20, 2015 12:22pm
Kimbo

@ Jack5

Do religions oppose euthanasia and suicide because they undermine their “perpetual life” proposition? If you see through that, then these measures can be assessed and debated more rationally.

Umm, in the Judaeo-Christian-Muslim tradition, no it is not the expectation of an after-life as such, or at least not directly. Instead it is the doctrine of Imago Dei/creation in the image of God. Same thing applies to abortion.

Which is why waikatogirl’s post, “…some of us wouldn’t allow a sick animal to linger. Cared for pets have a much better alternative to lingering…” would be considered as not germane to the discussion, other than as a conclusion to be automatically rejected.

Is logical once you accept the first premise.

Just saying, in the interests of assisting folks to avoid talking past one another…
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January 20, 2015 12:32pm
Nigel Kearney

No, it is not rubbish. Are you saying there are not terminally ill people in pain who choose to continue and die naturally?

I actually think the opposite is more likely to be true – lots of people might sign up for euthanasia when they are in good health and it’s just theoretical, but when the time comes to actually do it many of them would change their mind and choose to stick around, assuming they were still able to communicate.
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January 20, 2015 12:34pm
Ryan Sproull

Where are the feminists to complain against these vile Islamic rules?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2916684/Irans-players-fire-hardline-Islamic-regime-taking-SELFIES-female-fans.html

That article was posted today. Give folks a few days to write blog posts.
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January 20, 2015 12:34pm
Ashley Schaeffer

I think there is definitely a case for switching off artifical support earlier than what may happen today, but I’m not sure I would equate this with euthanasia. Letting nature take it’s course rather than inhibiting the inevitable with modern medicine is not the same as actively terminating a life in my book.
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January 20, 2015 12:39pm
SGA

@Nigel Kearney
I’m sure there’s lots of individual variation, Nigel. People in pain who wished it would just end, people who fight for their last breath whatever the suffering. And, of course, the fear of many, to linger so intellectually disabled that they aren’t in any way who they were.
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January 20, 2015 12:39pm
Jack5

Elaborating on my 12.12 posts.

An Islamic site’s elaboration on the 72-virgin condominium offer of Muslims’ heaven:

The sensual pleasures between believers and houri in Paradise are also confirmed by the two Sahih collections of hadith, namely Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, where we read that they will be virgins who are so beautiful, pure and transparent that “the marrow of the bones of their legs will be seen through the bones and the flesh”, and that “the believers will visit and enjoy them.”

You can see their bones through the skin, like a whippet’s? Not built for vigorous sex then.

I note the detail, “visit and enjoy them”. So the houris (definition, from another source:young, nymph girls created to be sexual servants) don’t live in. The wives of the suicide bombers get to live in the condo with the husbands. The wives shag only their husbands, but the husbands get the wives plus the stroll down to the houris at all hours.

So for a dying Muslim man lingering on in much pain, perhaps his travail can be eased by whispering in the ear: “Your houris has not yet come”.
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January 20, 2015 12:41pm
Kimbo

@ Jack5

If there was a way to have legal euthanasia but make certain nobody would be killed against their wishes then I would support that.

Yes, can we, or could we in some way, be able…

And even if you don’t accept the doctrine of Imago Dei, then pragmatically the fact that there are close to 20,000 abortions per year when, at the time of the 1977 abortion debate and law reforms such a figure would have been dismissed as preposterous scare-mongering, shows that any “legal safeguards” will ultimately prove a fiction. No matter how pious, positive and insistent voices are to the contrary.

Hell, the government can’t even safeguard confidentiality of information, or organise arrests of New Zealand residents such as Kim Dot Com correctly. And you want to give them the power to devise a “fail-safe” legal protection to supervise the killing of people?!
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January 20, 2015 12:45pm
MT_Tinman

I seriously hope that when the time comes that I am useless to anyone (currently I serve as a good bad example) someone puts me down.

May NZ law by that time allow that to happen.

I doubt I’m alone in hoping for that.
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January 20, 2015 1:01pm
waikatogirl

Kimbo: Which is why waikatogirl’s post, “…some of us wouldn’t allow a sick animal to linger. Cared for pets have a much better alternative to lingering…” would be considered as not germane to the discussion, other than as a conclusion to be automatically rejected.

***
I don’t see why it isn’t germane. Automatically rejected. You obviously know how I and everyone else should feel!!!!!!

Pets are as loved as our families, it is about caring. I have lost people I care deeply about as well and see no difference in how I felt, I grieved for both! All that I love is equal and i dont want to see suffering.

I am hoping that the option for a quick alternative to lingering is available when and if I choose to use it. Better to have your family close than be banished to being alone if you take that quicker path. Hopefully we will all go quietly in our sleep so not have to face this…
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January 20, 2015 1:04pm
Kimbo

@ waikatogirl

I don’t see why it isn’t germane. Automatically rejected. You obviously know how I and everyone else should feel!!!!!!

No, no, wg. I wasn’t saying you were necessarily wrong (nor right for that matter), nor that your feelings and that of others, nor the suffering you seek to prevent are not real.

Instead, in answer to Jack5 I was explaining why, if you accept the traditional monotheistic belief that human beings alone are created in the image of God, then euthanasia (and abortion except perhaps when there is a clear and immediate threat to the life of the mother) are logically automatically prohibited – no matter how compelling the arguments – some of which you list – to the contrary.

Whether we like it or not, the Church’s value system and moral decision-making processes have historically shaped our cultural and legal attitudes to euthanasia and suicide. Whether that deserves to be the case will no doubt depend on the values of individuals (and I expect wat dabney to pipe up soon on the matter!), but it is unlikely the Church’s attitude will change soon anytime soon.
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January 20, 2015 1:16pm
Redbaiter

A bit hard to know when to stop if you are watching Heaven’s Gate!

Trust you to be watching what is commonly described as the biggest dog of a movie ever made.

$44 million budget.

$3.5 million at the box office.
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January 20, 2015 1:23pm
Griff

I certainly hope that I will not be placed in the position of being surrounded by strangers not able to understand what is happening lying in my own excrement slowly starving to death.
Hopefully when my time is near I will have the option of departing this mortal coil with dignity .
.

Thank you everyone for your condolences.
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January 20, 2015 1:24pm
Paulus Gnome

jcuk (821 comments) at 8.59

Bollocks
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January 20, 2015 1:40pm
Lucia Maria

Here’s a couple of strong reasons as to why Christians are against euthanasia.

First and foremost is Kimbo’s reason, which is also linked to our lives are not our own, but God’s.

Second, euthanasia requires someone to kill you, which then makes that person a murderer.

Third, death is the final battle. How we die and what disposition we are in when we die matters for eternity.
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January 20, 2015 1:44pm
Scott Chris

Bill Maher: Self censorship vs free speech:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipu0ifyC-Xc
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January 20, 2015 1:53pm
hj

Pope Francis: No Catholic need to breed like ‘rabbits’

Speaking to journalists while heading back to Rome from the Philippines on Monday, Pope Francis was asked what he would say to families who had more children than they could afford because the Church forbids artificial contraception.

He replied with an unexpected turn of phrase: “Some people think that – excuse my expression here – that in order to be good Catholics we have to be like rabbits.”

“No. Parenthood is about being responsible. This is clear.”
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30890989

which reminds me of some good common sense elsewhere

When a family falls on hard times, and has to devote lots of energy to stabilizing the
situation, and then decides to have another child (whatever the other merits of the
case) that will almost invariably worsen the family’s economic position. It is a folksy
comparison and breaks down at some points, but NZ is in some respects that family:
choosing to have lots more kids, as it were, just when were in a position to capitalize
on the good positioning reforms put in place by successive governments in the late
1980s and early 1990s. In that story, housing is more than a symptom but less than a
cause.

http://www.treasury.govt.nz/downloads/pdfs/mi-jarrett-comm.pdf

a bit different to the advice from our homesick Bangladeshi friend -no?
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January 20, 2015 1:55pm
stephieboy

EAD,

“Here is my prediction Lance. Today is January 20th. In less than 9 months the world will have begun an economic crash greater than the one experience in 2008 of which their will be numerous sovereign defaults. I wouldn’t be surprised if most bank accounts in NZ get some form of OBR and lose a % of their savings. The black swans are flying Lance, several are landing as I type (collapsing oil price being one).

Watch this space.”

Indeed and I for one will be holding you to that prophecy of yours. Recalling Ron Paul’s prophecy of the US dollar collapsing in 2014 failed to materialise . Also that fundamentalist preacher loon who posts on Z H making similar failed prophecies.
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January 20, 2015 1:56pm
Kimbo

@ Lucia Maria

First and foremost is Kimbo’s reason, which is also linked to our lives are not our own, but God’s.

Hmm. In the civic realm I think it is more that there is an automatic inherent dignity within human beings that others do not have the right to take or violate. I’ve seen atheists like Bob Jones argue this to be the case, with no resort to deity.

Second, euthanasia requires someone to kill you, which then makes that person a murderer.

For the sake of playing devil’s advocate as not everyone automatically accepts the pronouncements of the Roman Catholic church, the law (and the Scriptures for that matter) allows for killing in the case of war, upholding law and order, self-defense, and execution wherever it is still practiced by the state. Euthanasia, in the case of mercifully ending a life in extreme, terminal and otherwise unavoidable suffering may fall into the same category.

Third, death is the final battle. How we die and what disposition we are in when we die matters for eternity.

Hmm. Seems to assume the validity of the Catholic sacrament of extreme unction/last rites, or the Arminian Protestant alternative, the “death-bed confession”. As a (non-hyper) Calvinist I’m not convinced.

More to the point, I don’t see why those are any more compelling arguments than the efficacy of voodoo for those who do not believe in an after-life. If one’s “disposition” at death really matters, then they have already made up their mind a long time before.
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January 20, 2015 1:56pm
MT_Tinman

Lucia Maria (2,756 comments) says:
January 20th, 2015 at 1:44 pm

Second, euthanasia requires someone to kill you, which then makes that person a murderer.

No, it’s doesn’t.

Wikipedia: Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human. Generally this premeditated state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter).

Your other arguments are simply superstition.
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January 20, 2015 1:59pm
waikatogirl

Kimbo: Instead, in answer to Jack5 I was explaining why, if you accept the traditional monotheistic belief that human beings alone are created in the image of God, then euthanasia (and abortion except perhaps when there is a clear and immediate threat to the life of the mother) are logically automatically prohibited – no matter how compelling the arguments – some of which you list – to the contrary.

***
Never the twain with us I think.
No, I’m not religious. Guess that makes it easier for me to just go with only how I FEEL with the loss, or impending loss. I hope the one concerned doesn’t suffer and I grieve their loss. The hardest to deal with are sudden deaths of younger people.
As adults I believe euthanasia is a personal decision and not to be made by anyone other than the person concerned and their closest. Not to have those you love around you when you die is inhuman, and I’m sure god would agree with that!
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January 20, 2015 2:03pm
stephieboy

Manolo (14,440 comments) says:
January 20th, 2015 at 10:22 am

@stephieboy: In your book, Philby and Burgess were also good loyal citizens, weren’t they?

No comparisons with Jane Fonda. She never passed on Nuclear or military secrets to the Soviets.
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January 20, 2015 2:06pm
Kimbo

@ waikatogirl

As adults I believe euthanasia is a personal decision and not to be made by anyone other than the person concerned and their closest. Not to have those you love around you when you die is inhuman, and I’m sure god would agree with that!

I have someone close to me who is a Christian who had to live through the lingering and harrowing death of her dad some 50 years ago, and that practical experience has convinced her there is no “dignity” and very few “spiritual and other lessons” to be learned in such circumstances. Like you, if the time comes, she prefers to be euthanised. Her argument is that if we do it to animals that are suffering, then how much more for humans. And in many cases experience shapes theology!

The Roman Catholics especially will fight it as die-hards (!), but the baby boomer generation through sheer weight of numbers has basically got every legal change it ever wanted to suit itself, and the right to die how they want will probably be another.

But I am skeptical that the decision will ever remain “personal”, especially if (as it inevitably will) it conflicts with the interests of the small group around you, much less institutional care-givers and the state…
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January 20, 2015 2:14pm
hj

Muslim leaders accuse ministers of being like ‘far right’
Ministers say they are ‘disappointed’ after the Muslim Council of Britain hits out over government letter telling every mosque to help root out ‘men of hate’

Harun Khan, the council’s deputy secretary, said: “We will be writing to Mr Eric Pickles to ask that he clarifies his request to Muslims to ‘explain and demonstrate how faith in Islam can be part of British identity’. Is Mr Pickles seriously suggesting, as do members of the far right, that Muslims and Islam are inherently apart from British society?”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11354439/Muslim-leaders-accuse-ministers-of-being-like-far-right.html

That demonstrates the dilemma of multiculturalism where two different groups see themselves as “British” (have different views on what is British). Yet in reality are quite different?
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January 20, 2015 2:14pm
Nigel Kearney

“Here is my prediction Lance. Today is January 20th. In less than 9 months the world will have begun an economic crash …”

“Indeed and I for one will be holding you to that prophecy of yours.”

LOL. Like any good conspiracy theorist he didn’t let himself be tied down to any specific event happening on or before any specific date. All he said was some vaguely defined things will happen at an unspecified time and the process will have started (but not necessarily anything noticeable actually happened) within nine months. You won’t be holding him to anything.
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January 20, 2015 2:21pm
waikatogirl

LM: Third, death is the final battle. How we die and what disposition we are in when we die matters for eternity.
***

Sorry LM but bollocks. If I choose not to believe in the ever after then it is my decision, not yours or the church if I choose to end my life when I choose… It is not up to the catholic church to override the beliefs of those who are much more practical about choice.

Apologies Griff, don’t mean to hijack your sad day. Best wishes to your dad.
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January 20, 2015 2:23pm
hj

Pete George hits a panic point on The Standard

Pete George 1
20 January 2015 at 7:04 am

Further to recent discussions here on begging monks in Auckland:
….
1.1
20 January 2015 at 7:13 am

if we ever need someone to run around shouting ‘the sky is falling in’..the sky is falling in’…

..we know where to turn..eh..?
….
1.1.2
20 January 2015 at 7:58 am

That gave me a laugh to start my day with the chicken little joke Phil, cheers.

You would think Pete G would be constructively commenting on the real crime that is on everyones lips and contributing some problem solving idea’s. That of the greedy 1% ripping the other 99% off through tax avoidance, banking ponzi schemes, anti competitive monopoly racketeering.

The way Pete is carrying on you would think the begging monks scam it’s the crime of the century. I nod my head in disbelief he is so selectively blind.

http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-20012015/
so is getting close to beneficiary “bashing” but also the socialist idea that there are no limits ()since China represents a mega population, thereby underming the redistributional solution to it all)?
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January 20, 2015 2:25pm
Jack5

Taki Theodoracopulos, writer of the High Life column in the Spectator, goes to a party for the notorious Julian Assange, the editor of the WikiLeaks web site. Assange is marooned in the Ecuadorean embassy in London:

an American friend gave a party in London to raise awareness of the plight of a rare piece of shit of a man, Julian Assange. I went to the party thinking it was to celebrate the host’s birthday. It turned out to be a horror, full of people with dandruff, ugly skin and uglier faces, who were very concerned with civil liberties being eroded while alerting jihadists to our electronic eavesdropping. Now it doesn’t take a coruscating intelligence to figure out that we can’t have both total freedom of information and safety from militant Islam. Ever since I can remember, saying anything against these bearded zealots had know-nothings screaming racism, and we all know the result. It’s much too late to rid our society off these scummy types, but it’s not too late to take extreme measures against them, especially those who finance them. Step forward, the Saudis, Qataris and Kuwaitis.
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January 20, 2015 2:26pm
SGA

Kimbo at 2:14 pm

but the baby boomer generation through sheer weight of numbers has basically got every legal change it ever wanted to suit itself, and the right to die how they want will probably be another.

That begs the question as to why the boomer generation would want that change? Is it just the downside of our increased ability to prolong life in difficult circumstances? Is it a by-product of an increasingly secular society (in the “developed” countries at least)? Both the above, or something different?
Just thinking out loud.
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January 20, 2015 2:29pm
Manolo

Meanwhile P.G.’s boss, the chameleon of Ohariu-Belmont, laments his pathetic role: https://nz.news.yahoo.com/election/a/-/26037871/dunne-unsure-of-rma-shake-up-changes/

National’s shake-up of the Resource Management Act is set to come as a surprise to its friends in Parliament.
It had to shelve changes last year due to a lack of support from United Future and the Maori Party.

A re-jigged plan will be announced tomorrow – and National now only needs one vote to pass it. But it looks unlikely that will come from United Future’s Peter Dunne – who’s been kept in the dark.

“They’ve got the Act Party, which would support any gutting of the RMA that came along, so I imagine that’s what they’ve gone for.
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January 20, 2015 2:32pm
Kimbo

@ SGA

Kimbo at 2:14 pm

but the baby boomer generation through sheer weight of numbers has basically got every legal change it ever wanted to suit itself, and the right to die how they want will probably be another.

That begs the question as to why the boomer generation would want that change? Is it just the downside of our increased ability to prolong life in difficult circumstances? Is it a by-product of an increasingly secular society (in the “developed” countries at least)? Both the above, or something different?
Just thinking out loud.

Isn’t it simply convenience? Not necessarily in the flippant sense, but in the sense that it is agreeable and appropriate to stop suffering, especially one’s own if you can?

Because pain and suffering are supposedly the worst things that one can suffer.
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January 20, 2015 2:33pm
SGA

@Kimbo
That convenience has always been there, though. Why the growing push (it seems that way) for a change at this point in time?
Add – likewise pain and suffering being nothing new.
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January 20, 2015 2:35pm
hj

Thginking aboout the News media on housing (Radio NZ). They get to choose who speaks. This morning Peter Dunne (who for once I agreed with). But by not allowing NZ First they are blocking immigration as the issue. So in a way they interfere with our democracy. Professor Spoonley writes about Winston Peters and the politicisation of immigration” and how the media should deal positively with immigration as though it should be part of any constitution that immigration must always be thought of as a great benefit like fresh air and cider vinegar?
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January 20, 2015 2:37pm
James Stephenson

Peter Dunne – who’s been kept in the dark.

Not surprised, why would they tell him anything unless they wanted Andrea Vance to be the next to know?
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January 20, 2015 2:38pm
Kimbo

@SGA

That convenience has always been there, though. Why the growing push (it seems that way) for a change at this point in time?
Add – likewise pain and suffering being nothing new.

Yes, but until the development of reliable pain-killers some 150 years ago, there was no way to stop it. It was a fact of life.

Once you begin to exert some control, then you get used to it and assume it is the most naturally desirable state of affairs.

Religion may have played a part in slowing that movement down – and perhaps the pain-prevention movement also contributed to the rejection of religion. Make no mistake, when Lucia Maria talks about “surprising blessings” that sometimes means people in their pain crying out to God when they otherwise wouldn’t.

Conversely, when there is an absence of pain, people are more likely to seek a remedy in the super-natural…

““Pain insists upon being attended to. God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our consciences, but shouts in our pains. It is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world.”” C S Lewis
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January 20, 2015 2:44pm
Ashley Schaeffer

One day soon, one of these scam monks is going to run into one of the real ones from the movies and learn the old fashioned way that their scam-fu is weak. Vibrating death palm anyone…? I’m picturing Big Trouble in Little Howick or something like that.
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January 20, 2015 2:47pm
waikatogirl

Kimbo: But I am skeptical that the decision will ever remain “personal”, especially if (as it inevitably will) it conflicts with the interests of the small group around you, much less institutional care-givers and the state…

***
Obviously I can only speak for my family. My husband and I have discussed such views with each other for years. I trust him to do what is best for me, and I for him. We have also discussed this topic with other members of the family and we are all on the same page as the way to go if necessary.

My old mum was recently disappointed to hear the law was not going to be actioned on this any time soon, just in case she or dad need to take advantage when the time comes. My family and friends are all intelligent adults. I’m sure between ourselves and our doctors we could make OUR OWN LAST PERSONAL decision.
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January 20, 2015 2:48pm
Kimbo

@ waikatogirl

My old mum was recently disappointed to hear the law was not going to be actioned on this any time soon, just in case she or dad need to take advantage when the time comes. My family and friends are all intelligent adults. I’m sure between ourselves and our doctors we could make OUR OWN LAST PERSONAL decision.

Usually I’d be the last to resort to the “slippery-slope” argument, as there are more than enough folks around here using it as a first, second, and third option (a few names spring to mind…)

However, as per the practical example I gave with abortion, recent and current developments show that ring-fencing the consequences to your family, no matter how well-intentioned, is impossible.

Also correction to my post at January 20th, 2015 at 2:44 pm

I should have written

Conversely, when there is an absence of pain, people are less likely to seek a remedy in the super-natural
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January 20, 2015 2:55pm
waikatogirl

Isn’t it simply convenience? Not necessarily in the flippant sense, but in the sense that it is agreeable and appropriate to stop suffering, especially one’s own if you can?

Because pain and suffering are supposedly the worst things that one can suffer.

***
Baby boomers are used to thinking for themselves, a change from previous generations who did what the medical profession told them to do.
We want to be able to decide when and how our own final decision is made, and not suffer when there is a valid alternative.
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January 20, 2015 3:01pm
SGA

@kimbo
Thanks for the correction – you had me scratching my head.
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January 20, 2015 3:01pm
Kimbo

@ waikatogirl

Baby boomers are used to thinking for themselves…

Like Hanoi Jane Fonda? Born in 1937, but still a quintessential baby-boomer in her chameleon-like personal quest-for-truth, and resulting lifestyle choices, causes, and public pronouncements.

Yeah, and as a non-baby-boomer I’m not so sure I’m willing to praise them with the words they seem to have come to expect as of right: “you are the generation and wisdom began and will die with you”
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January 20, 2015 3:07pm
Manolo

The unfullfilled promises of a snake oil salesman: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/01/19/obama-show-mixed-results-in-delivering-on-six-previous-state-union-promises/

The Messiah is never short of a (false) promise.
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January 20, 2015 3:11pm
Griff

Waikato girl.
I posted to generate debate about euthanasia not for sympathy.
It is obviously something I have been thinking about and the family discussion around the dnr was fresh on my mind.
All four of us in my family used the same reference to how we would treat a dog in our discussion.
Death is a fact of life.
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January 20, 2015 3:14pm
SGA

Kimbo at 3:07 pm

Like Hanoi Jane Fonda? Born in 1937, but still a quintessential baby-boomer in her chameleon-like personal quest-for-truth, and resulting lifestyle choices, causes, and public pronouncements.

Well, not only isn’t she even a baby boomer, but you could almost use her as a caricature of a baby boomer than what was actually typical.
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January 20, 2015 3:19pm
stephieboy

Manolo, the Gospel according to Fox News,

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/13/world/europe/twitter-users-react-with-glee-to-fox-news-claim-on-birmingham.html?_r=0
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January 20, 2015 3:23pm
Lucia Maria

Kimbo,

Hmm. In the civic realm I think it is more that there is an automatic inherent dignity within human beings that others do not have the right to take or violate. I’ve seen atheists like Bob Jones argue this to be the case, with no resort to deity.

Good on him for being able to do that. To me, that is a person being able to correct discern right from wrong, an ability we are all born with. Many people will recognise the truth of the argument and not take it any further.

Don’t feel a need to comment on your second paragraph, so moving on ..

Seems to assume the validity of the Catholic sacrament of extreme unction/last rites, or the Arminian Protestant alternative, the “death-bed confession”. As a (non-hyper) Calvinist I’m not convinced.

I wasn’t really seeking to convince anyone, all I was doing was explaining the position.

More to the point, I don’t see why those are any more compelling arguments than the efficacy of voodoo for those who do not believe in an after-life. If one’s “disposition” at death really matters, then they have already made up their mind a long time before.

I think for most people who have made up their mind a long time before, death is just a continuation of how they’ve always approached things. Some people have a far more positive and hopeful view, but given the vehemence with which some will defend their absolute right to have someone kill them when they want to die, a miracle at the point of death would be necessary for any shift for someone so inclined.
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January 20, 2015 3:24pm
Manolo

The bugger could be enjoying his virgins. A very sad loss, isn’t it? http://news.yahoo.com/iran-confirms-general-killed-israel-strike-syria-004946061.html

An Israeli strike on Syria killed an Iranian general, Tehran confirmed Monday, as thousands of supporters of Lebanon’s Hezbollah gathered to bury one of six fighters killed in the same raid.

The attack on Sunday near Quneitra on the Syrian-controlled side of the Golan Heights enraged Hezbollah’s supporters, but analysts said the group would avoid a major escalation with Israel.

Iran’s elite Revolutionary Guards confirmed the death of one of their generals in a statement.

“General Mohammad Ali Allahdadi and a number of fighters and Islamic Resistance (Hezbollah) forces were attacked by the Zionist regime’s helicopters. This brave general and some members of Hezbollah were martyred”,it said.
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January 20, 2015 3:38pm
waikatogirl

Kimbo: Yeah, and as a non-baby-boomer I’m not so sure I’m willing to praise them with the words they seem to have come to expect as of right: “you are the generation and wisdom began and will die with you”

***
I only just made the cut as a boomer. however, as I say my old mum, in her eighties has the same opinion re choosing her own time. She is a practical oldie. Guess that’s where I get it from…so nothing to do with my generation.

Hanoi Jane is not a boomer but she was Hollywood royalty, born with a public voice and a sense of entitlement to use, despite hitting the wrong note re Vietnam. She and HC would be put in the same camp by the soldiers who served in Vietnam.
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January 20, 2015 4:01pm
waikatogirl

LM: I wasn’t really seeking to convince anyone, all I was doing was explaining the position.

Not THE position, that is your position and probably the catholic church’s position. Not being catholic, I have a different way at looking at my life. Not better or worse, just my way…

LM: I think for most people who have made up their mind a long time before, death is just a continuation of how they’ve always approached things. Some people have a far more positive and hopeful view, but given the vehemence with which some will defend their absolute right to have someone kill them when they want to die, a miracle at the point of death would be necessary for any shift for someone so inclined.

Vehement maybe, or just my right to say how I feel about My right to end my life the way I wish. Who says it isn’t positive!
I don’t see it as someone “killing me”. I see it as an act of love when I or a loved one is in a desperate, painful and inevitably tragic and lingering death.

I am positive and happy with my beliefs. Good for you enjoying your beliefs, don’t belittle mine.
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January 20, 2015 4:18pm
jcuk

Redbaiter (11,046 comments) says: at 9:00 am
Why we let communists like you into NZ I do not know. You destroyed the UK and then come here with the exact same mindset and set about destroying NZ the same way you destroyed the UK. Madness.

For the record you foolish zenophobic nut …. I learnt my basic political beliefs from a NZder here in NZ … if I destroyed the UK it must have been a long time ago by leaving as I have been here some sixty one years. Have another go 🙂
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January 20, 2015 4:26pm
Manolo

Barbarians beyond description: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2917071/ISIS-execute-13-football-fans-firing-squad-watching-Iraq-play-Jordan-TV-Islamist-controlled-Mosul.html

ISIS militants have executed 13 teenage boys for watching the Asian Cup football match between Iraq and Jordan last week. The young football fans had been caught watching the game on television in the Iraqi city of Mosul, which is controlled by the Islamic State.

The teenagers were rounded up and publicly executed by a firing squad using machine guns, anti-ISIS activist group Raqqa reports.
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January 20, 2015 4:26pm
Lucia Maria

Waikatogirl,

If really want to die, there’s very little anyone can do to stop you. We just had a young girl end her life by hanging in my area last week. Only 15 or so (same age as my best friend was when she took her own life) and now she’s gone.

Vehement maybe, or just my right to say how I feel about My right to end my life the way I wish. Who says it isn’t positive! I don’t see it as someone “killing me”. I see it as an act of love when I or a loved one is in a desperate, painful and inevitably tragic and lingering death.

Your act of love is my act of murder, when you don’t do it yourself and when you involves other people. Only one of us can be right.

I am positive and happy with my beliefs. Good for you enjoying your beliefs, don’t belittle mine.

And as long as euthanasia is never forced on the medical profession so that people such as yourself cannot have someone kill them, then we are all protected, whether you believe it to be true or not.

I’m not belittling your beliefs, though if I were, what would it be to you? My beliefs get belittled frequently, but I don’t need the approval of others for them. If you really and strongly stand behind what you believe, it should be the same for you. No matter what people like me say, it ought to be like water off a duck’s back. It is for me.
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January 20, 2015 4:35pm
G152

Jane Fonda gave comfort to an enemy and as such she was and is a traitor.
Goff spat on troops returning from Vietnam and now he’s Liebors spokesman for the military.
A traitor of our own
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January 20, 2015 4:37pm
mikenmild

While you are on about ancient history, G152, could you ever reconcile Peter Fraser’s pacifist stance in WWI with his war leadership in WWII? Are people’s views ever allowed to change?
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January 20, 2015 4:40pm
Kimbo

@ mikenmild

While you are on about ancient history, G152, could you ever reconcile Peter Fraser’s pacifist stance in WWI with his war leadership in WWII? Are people’s views ever allowed to change?

Not if they want to retain their credibility in public office over a matter as important as life-and-death when their previous stance meant they personally avoided it, while their later stance meant that they sent others into the jaws of danger.

And I doubt that Fraser really changed his mind at all over conscription. Instead it was the cause of conscription.

For a national fight against Prussian militarism when the radical left-wing say “no”: bad.

For a national fight against Facism when the radical left-wing say “yes”: good.

So the same old partisan socialist ideology being inflicted onto others
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January 20, 2015 4:53pm
mikenmild

I’m just wanting to point out that time and circumstances change, and so do people. Whether Phil Goff was opposed to or supported the Vietnam War really has no bearing on any contribution he might have to national security policy today. Likewise, although it remains a matter of amusement that John Key claims not to remember whether he was for or against the 1981 Springbok Tour, it tells us little about his ability to be PM today.
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January 20, 2015 4:57pm
Longknives

God Michael Moore is a tosser!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/film/65218631/american-sniper-under-fire-seth-rogen-michael-moore-ignite-sniper-debate

Great quote in retaliation from Gingrich-
“Michael Moore should spend a few weeks with ISIS and Boko Haram. Then he might appreciate@AmericanSniper. I am proud of our defenders.”
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January 20, 2015 4:59pm
Kimbo

@ mikenmild

…and I’m just waning to point out that, in answer to your question, yes, it does matter for credibility – at least it does in Goff’s case when he has simply continued in the same essential views.

Key’s opinion over the Springbok tour at that time and now remains irrelevant – he wasn’t seeking to force whatever views he held on others in defiance of law and order, as per the over-praised anarchists who broke the law in 1981 (I exempt the majority of protesters who did so peacefully and lawfully).
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January 20, 2015 5:00pm
mikenmild

So you feel that Peter Fraser lacked credibility when PM and that Goff lacks credibility now? I would argue that John Key’s stance on 1981 is just as important to credibility – if he lies so glibly about that, what else does he lie about?
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January 20, 2015 5:02pm
jcuk

Paulus Gnome (19 comments) says:
January 20th, 2015 at 1:40 pm
jcuk (821 comments) at 8.59

Bollocks

I think the answer is ” and the same to you with brass knobs on ” 🙂
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January 20, 2015 5:05pm
Kimbo

@ mikenmild

So you feel that Peter Fraser lacked credibility when PM and that Goff lacks credibility now?

Both Fraser and Savage lacked credibility at the time among many veterans. That is an historical fact (and part of the reason for the split with John A Lee), no matter how “kind” the air-brushed and selective records have treated two of our allegedly “greatest” Prime Ministers. But then Labour folk do love hagiography and howl like banshees when anything to the contrary is suggested about their idols.

Goff for a whole host of reasons, including in small part the one you mention, lacks credibility now.
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January 20, 2015 5:07pm
Nukuleka

Can we lay to rest this ridiculous comparison between the killing of pets for humane purposes and voluntary euthanasia for human beings. Pets have no choice in their fate- they are simply killed. That decision is not made by them but by you and your vet.

If those in favour of voluntary euthanasia wish to use the fate of animals in their flawed argument then they must be prepared to face the fact that they are advocating in favour of the act of murder. They are in favour of killing human beings and giving them no choice in whether or not they wish to die.

If this is not your view then please stop bringing the killing of animals into the discussion!
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January 20, 2015 5:10pm
waikatogirl

How is a 15 year old committing suicide the same thing as the right to die because you are so sick that life is not worth living? If god has got anything about him that is decent he should not wish any to suffer in such a horrible way as a slow and painful death.

You have been indoctrinated in the catholic church, but I have a different view. Never the twain.
and so I say, religious belief should not be part of law making in our Parliament. Catholic members of Parliament will never pass this law, hence the stranglehold on this valid law for those who wish to make our own decisions.

If or when necessary I will find a doctor who will assist me to ensure I don’t linger in agonising pain when there is not hope of recovery. Oh and it is like water off a ducks back, just stating my view 🙂
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January 20, 2015 5:10pm
IGM

milkwimp: Hope you were one of the demonstrators we had fun with at the bottom of Rintoul Street. I still have happy flashbacks of the incident.
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January 20, 2015 5:13pm
SGA

Saw this headline on Stuff – Moment of stupidity, says 240kmh speedster
I suppose my first thought should have been “idiot”, but I confess it was “I wonder what sort of car it was”. Bad SGA 🙂
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January 20, 2015 5:44pm
Ryan Sproull

milkwimp: Hope you were one of the demonstrators we had fun with at the bottom of Rintoul Street. I still have happy flashbacks of the incident.

What kind of flashbacks, IGM?
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January 20, 2015 5:44pm
cricko

islamic terrorists are simply devout followers of islam.

(anyone care to argue the toss on that self evident statement of truth ?)
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January 20, 2015 5:54pm
UglyTruth

What’s the different between something actually being self evident and blind prejudice, cricko?
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January 20, 2015 6:04pm
Reid

As dirty flies buzz towards fresh dog poo on a steaming summer sidewalk, so too are unusually psychotic freaks drawn towards political office (just as unusually tall men gravitate towards the game of basketball). They will then rise high and higher.

Now a single psychopath in a position of power is bad enough, but when they federate together, the exponential evil can secretly overwhelm entire nations.
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January 20, 2015 6:05pm
cricko

UglyTruth
Care to attempt some sort of reasoned response or are you simply limited to asking inane questions ?
(as usual)

Surely even you have more about you than that.

Or, is that your best shot ?
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January 20, 2015 6:18pm
Reid

http://journal-neo.org/2015/01/16/us-is-preparing-up-to-5k-militants-that-would-flee-to-isil/

Yes sheeple. That’s right. ISIS does have a santa clause, and its name is…

http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2015/01/saudi-arabia-on-the-edge-of-an-abyss.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+typepad%2FrzYD+%28Global+Guerrillas%29

And a bit of blowback for one of the Santas…

Awwwwwwwwwwwwww.
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January 20, 2015 6:19pm
freemark

Who is that Ronchi guy?
What an over, what a good win ultimately.
Cool…
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January 20, 2015 6:39pm
Psycho Milt

Both Fraser and Savage lacked credibility at the time among many veterans.

Well, duh. For a start, many veterans were National voters. That aside, so what? For someone who hates hagiography you seem to place a high value on the opinions of returned servicemen.
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January 20, 2015 7:17pm
Psycho Milt

What kind of flashbacks, IGM?

The psychotic fascist fantasy kind. I expect he has a bunch of them, many of them involving his ex-wife.
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January 20, 2015 7:19pm
Kimbo

@ Psycho Milt

Both Fraser and Savage lacked credibility at the time among many veterans.

Well, duh. For a start, many veterans were National voters. That aside, so what? For someone who hates hagiography you seem to place a high value on the opinions of returned servicemen.

Thus proving my thesis that left-wing supporters froth at the mouth, do 360 degree head spins and other assorted pyrotechnics when any of their icons are criticised…anything, other than concentrate on the facts and follow the thread of the discussion.

In the absence of an exorcist, and seeing as I can’t do this with crayons or with felt diagrams at the present time for your edification, let alone put right the mental defects you seem to have incurred stopping a ‘Minto bar’ with you skull on Rintoul Street circa 1981, here, let me help you, Psycho Milt: –

You have deliberately overlooked the fact that whether they were returned servicemen or not, they considered that Fraser lacked credibility over the conscription issue…which answers mikenmild’s question, “So you feel that Peter Fraser lacked credibility when PM…?, to which I answered, “That is an historical fact…”. In case you haven’t noticed “credibility” when it comes to politicians is ALWAYS a matter of opinion…and that was theirs.

AND you have also deliberately overlooked, as mentioned, that Fraser’s and Savage’s anti-conscription stance was part of the reason for the split with John A Lee…unless he too was he a National voter?! Oh, no I forgot, in the finest traditions of the left he is even worse than a tory, because he was…a splitter!
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January 20, 2015 7:54pm
Kimbo

Oh, yes, and at least the returned servicemen in question had the guts to fight for their country when a militaristic power (Wilhelmine Germany) invaded a neighbouring neutral non-beligerent (Belgium) with the goal of power over Europe and therefore the rest of the world

…whereas Fraser and Savage didn’t, at least when they had a chance to fight themselves

but changed their mind when they had the chance to send young men to fight for their country when a militaristic power (Nazi Germany) invaded a neighbouring neutral non-beligerent (Poland) with the goal of power over Europe and therefore the rest of the world.

So yeah, on balance on this matter I’d give their opinion more credibility than Fraser, Savage…and you for that matter too.

But then that is the left wing way, isn’t it? Score political points at the expense of returned servicemen when they fight in wars that the left don’t approve of (The Great war, Vietnam), but then expect everyone to forget when they are in power as Minister of defence…
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January 20, 2015 8:04pm
nasska

….”If those in favour of voluntary euthanasia wish to use the fate of animals in their flawed argument then they must be prepared to face the fact that they are advocating in favour of the act of murder. They are in favour of killing human beings and giving them no choice in whether or not they wish to die.”….

A load of crap. Euthanasia as has been proposed today starts with a direction that when one is in terminal pain with no hope of cure or relief then he/she should be “put to sleep” or whatever the euphemism of the hour is. There’s no mention of compulsion…..it’s the ultimate self choice.

The God addled who see purpose to a painful death twist this to mean what they say it does. Horror stories of angst ridden teenagers wanting to die or death squads roaming the suburbs seeking grannies are pushed to the fore in endless attempts to enforce their hallucinations about the afterlife as reason to retain law that effects both the believer & the atheist.

Since you have my total assurance that should you wish to die screaming, lying in your own shit then that’s fine & since we have to share this planet how about giving me the same courtesy & let me do what I think is best for ME.
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January 20, 2015 8:15pm
Kimbo

Down ticks, eh Psycho Milt?

Here, this is an example of the sort of scum bag on the far left of politics that I mean, taking every inappropriate opportunity to score cheap ideological points: –

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=184792

Robson chips at Aussies to make point on war
5:08 AM Thursday Apr 26, 2001

By ANNE BESTON

Outspoken Disarmament Minister Matt Robson has flown in the face of Anzac tradition by describing New Zealand as Australia’s first overseas battlefield.

Mr Robson used an alternative Anzac Day service in Aotea Square yesterday to remind Australians that their soldiers fought and died in New Zealand during the land wars of the 19th century.

He added that the “British imperialistic” aim at the time then was to grab valuable land and that in these days those responsible would probably be charged with war crimes.

The Alliance MP’s comments contrast with lofty political rhetoric from both countries in the past week emphasising Kiwi-Aussie mateship and shared values in war and peace.

On Tuesday, Australian Prime Minister John Howard said at the dedication of the New Zealand Memorial in Canberra that the Anzac relationship was “as strong as the relationship between any two countries can be.”

“Whatever history may deal to us in future, nothing will separate us,” he said.

“Our destinies will forever be together and we will forever share, in this part of the world, a common set of values that mean so much to all of us.”

Yesterday, at the service at Aotea Square, Mr Robson said the Australian War Memorial revealed how 2500 men in the Australian expeditionary forces of the 19th century, most of whom joined the Waikato militia regiments, were promised confiscated Maori land by their New Zealand recruiters.

“This was nothing to do with the defence of Australia from a military threat, it was simply the pursuit of British imperialistic ambitions,” he told 30 people at the meeting, organised by the Peace Foundation.

“The authors of that would now likely go before the international criminal court.”

Mr Robson, who went to school in Australia, said Australians volunteered for the Sudan, which, again, had nothing to do with defence.

“But it had a lot to do with the colonial mentality, feelings of moral and racial superiority and perceptions of a great imperial destiny.”

There were always powerful voices promoting military responses as the way to secure and advantage New Zealand and Australia’s interests.

“But the lesson of history is that not everybody agrees,” he said.

Mr Robson said after the speech he was talking in a historical context and referring to both Australia and Britain.

“I am really saying we have now reached the stage where countries have to justify their wars,” he said.

The Auckland Returned Services Association president, Chris Yates, advised Mr Robson not to dwell on the past.

His association and war veterans’ families welcomed the Government’s recent moves to help veterans and he said he took his hat off to Helen Clark, who had addressed some serious issues.
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January 20, 2015 8:22pm
freemark

Come back soon please DPF.
All of the nutters are concentrated in GD, rather than spread out over a few posts per day.
We’re losing some valuable balanced commentary due to this, and the nutters, Lefties & otherwise obsessed get more prominence than they deserve.
FFS, even my brief comment congratulating our Cricket Team and a player who did well attracts down tick.
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January 20, 2015 8:26pm
Psycho Milt

Thus proving my thesis that left-wing supporters froth at the mouth, do 360 degree head spins and other assorted pyrotechnics when any of their icons are criticised…

Well, to the extent that pointing out that ex-servicemen’s opinions are no more valid than anyone else’s constitutes “frothing at the mouth” I suppose…

You have deliberately overlooked the fact that whether they were returned servicemen or not, they considered that Fraser lacked credibility over the conscription issue…which answers mikenmild’s question, “So you feel that Peter Fraser lacked credibility when PM…?

So your answer to mikenmild is “For some people, they did.” To which I say again, well duh. It’s not exactly a convincing answer – for instance, as an ex-currency trader, John Key lacks credibility on any issue relating to the common good in my considered opinion. This is likely to be of little interest to anyone who doesn’t place a high value on my opinion, ie just about everybody on the planet. The same applies to the opinions of ex-servicemen.

…at least the returned servicemen in question had the guts to fight for their country when a militaristic power (Wilhelmine Germany) invaded a neighbouring neutral non-beligerent (Belgium) with the goal of power over Europe and therefore the rest of the world…

Well, they had a sense of duty, or in many cases a sense of adventure and a strong desire to get out of this backwater, but sure, if you say so. However, Fraser and Savage correctly identified that war as a tawdry dispute between imperial powers over who got to rule over the most darkies, to be fought by ignorant or unwilling members of the working classes on all sides, and sensibly refused to have any part in it. To be a conscientious objector in WW1 would have taken as much courage as joining up (not that courage is required to be conscripted – the ruling classes will turn you into cannon fodder whether you like it or not).
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January 20, 2015 8:27pm
Psycho Milt

Yesterday, at the service at Aotea Square, Mr Robson said the Australian War Memorial revealed how 2500 men in the Australian expeditionary forces of the 19th century, most of whom joined the Waikato militia regiments, were promised confiscated Maori land by their New Zealand recruiters.

Is Robson wrong about that, Kimbo?

Also:
Down ticks, eh Psycho Milt?

Not from me. If I don’t like your comment, I tell you why.
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January 20, 2015 8:29pm
Kimbo

@ Pyscho Milt

However, Fraser and Savage correctly identified that war as a tawdry dispute between imperial powers over who got to rule over the most darkies…

Ah, the standard left wing ‘snatch defeat from the jaws of victory” analysis over the Great War. Wrong. Nothing correctly identified at all. Have a look at the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk to see what the Kaiser and his minions had in mind if we had lost.

Then again, as that Minto bar has obviously done lasting damage – as you were. Carry on with your prejudices and far be it from me to sway you otherwise…
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January 20, 2015 8:30pm
cricko

“islamic terrorists are simply devout followers of islam.”

No one can deny that fact.

At least no one who reads this blog can.
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January 20, 2015 8:38pm
RF

G152. 4.47pm. Don’t forget H. Clark also spat at our returning Vietnam troops. She never missed a photo op and visited cemeteries pretending to honour our war dead whenever there was a TV crew in the vicinity. Evil Bitch……
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January 20, 2015 8:41pm
Reid

PM serious question.

How come the left never advocate solutions that teach people how to fish, in favour of solutions that wrap people in cotton wool?

Don’t pretend that’s not the fact of life. We all know it is.

My question is: if lefties are so very humane, why can’t they see it’s more beneficial to an individual to tell them how to unleash their potential and let them break their own chains, rather than constantly offering to defend them from the baddies and cuddling them like there’s no tomorrow?

Which as we all know creates a learned helplessness relationship. And cui bono from that?

And that’s what really happens. So why? Given you all advocate you’re all so very keen on the altruism front. It just doesn’t seem very altruistic to me, behaving like that, decade in and decade out.
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January 20, 2015 8:41pm
Kimbo

@ Psycho milt

Yesterday, at the service at Aotea Square, Mr Robson said the Australian War Memorial revealed how 2500 men in the Australian expeditionary forces of the 19th century, most of whom joined the Waikato militia regiments, were promised confiscated Maori land by their New Zealand recruiters.

Is Robson wrong about that, Kimbo?

I’m unaware that ALL confiscations of Tainui land are subject to compensation a result of acknowledged Crown wrong-doing at the time.
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January 20, 2015 8:41pm
RF

Talking about Evil Bitches. Is anyone watching the Aussie series of The Block. There is a female short arse who is a nasty piece of work.

Hope she gets handed her arse when the building is auctioned.
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January 20, 2015 8:46pm
cricko

Hey

You think that my observation regarding muslim terrorists @ 5.54 and 8.38 is wrong ?

Then don’t be a gutless article and just downtick it.

Grow a pair and spell it out where I got it wrong.

Bet you can’t.
Because that is the truth that will soon sink in to the whole free world.
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January 20, 2015 8:52pm
waikatogirl

Nukuleka….”If those in favour of voluntary euthanasia wish to use the fate of animals in their flawed argument then they must be prepared to face the fact that they are advocating in favour of the act of murder. They are in favour of killing human beings and giving them no choice in whether or not they wish to die.”….

Nasska A load of crap. Euthanasia as has been proposed today starts with a direction that when one is in terminal pain with no hope of cure or relief then he/she should be “put to sleep” or whatever the euphemism of the hour is. There’s no mention of compulsion…..it’s the ultimate self choice.

***
Thanks Nasska.

I did include animals as a valid argument for not letting anyone or anything suffer. And yes, they didn’t make the decision to be put to sleep themselves but they trusted me to make that decision for them, as you would do for a child that wasn’t capable of understanding the issue.

I have made the decision for a much loved dog who had cancer and 2 loved cats to be put down for kidney and thyroid cancer. I did this to prevent suffering. How is that not Christian NukuLeka?
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January 20, 2015 8:56pm
mikenmild

Kimbo
I don’t think the idea that the First World War was tawdry imperial dispute in which no side could claim the moral high ground is necessarily a left-wing opinion. It’s not my opinion, BTW, but it is an opinion espoused by some conservative historians, like Niall Ferguson, whose ‘Pity of War’ was on TV a few weeks ago.
Whatever point you were wishing to make about Australian participation in the Waikato conquest eludes me.
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January 20, 2015 8:56pm
Reid

Cricko Wahabbism is the backward primitive version of Islam which begats that which you decry.

The intelligent person observes this is prominent in Saudi Arabia but never gets any airtime because that might be inconvenient to the narrative the pigeons in the West are being groomed to swallow.

But seriously, if we really really really really did have a “free” press, then Why the F haven’t we had doco after doco after doco on that transparently obvious connexion.

The intelligent person thinks about that and the consequences arising therefrom.

The sheeple continue to bleat and baa in their green green meadow of peace and contentment.
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January 20, 2015 8:57pm
nasska

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wbu7u7b8br87rud/Muslim%2024.jpg?dl=0
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January 20, 2015 8:57pm
Kimbo

…although just thinking about it a bit more, Psycho Milt, do you think that the citizens of the small and largely defencless nation of Belgium would agree with your analysis, that the Great War was “a tawdry dispute between imperial powers over who got to rule over the most darkies”?

And btw, contrary to myth, in the British Isles greater numbers of the ruling/officer classes were killed than the “cannon fodder” of the working classes,

But then I am speaking heresy against the great socialist religious-ideological myth, so any facts that don’t fit the pattern are automatically rejected or rationalised..because Savage and Fraser MUST have been right!
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January 20, 2015 8:58pm
Kimbo

@ mikenmild

Whatever point you were wishing to make about Australian participation in the Waikato conquest eludes me.

I was making none…so all the more reason to ask what axe was Robson grinding, and using Anzac day as an excuse to do so.
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January 20, 2015 9:05pm
mikenmild

Umm, wasn’t he making the unremarkable observation that the first Australian and New Zealand military cooperation was during the New Zealand Wars?
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January 20, 2015 9:08pm
Redbaiter

Kind of what I have been saying for some time now. Good to see the ideas getting mainstream exposure.

“The Left’s gravy train derailing “

Maurice Newman

IN the battle for ideas it is now clear the Left controls the commanding heights. In everything from the economy to sport, the prevailing direction is left. After decades of stereotyping, indoctrination and the clever use of language, Western voters have been conditioned to accept the beneficence of the state.

Politically this has set the stage for governments to see “market failure” in everything. It has become an excuse for an avalanche of regulations and regulators and allowed leftist intellectuals to incessantly bash the very essence of “capitalism”.

They have successfully implanted the notion that free market capitalism is synonymous with profiteering, greed, unequal wealth distribution and, the entrenchment of privilege which must be restrained.

Yet there is no competition commissioner to control the predatory actions of the state, or regulator to rein in reckless central bankers.

Voter acquiescence has been bought by both sides of politics, but conservatives everywhere have been politically outsmarted. They are apologetic when they should demand apologies.

Rather than be true to their values, they have too easily rolled over and allowed the Left to set the agenda on economics and social issues, incapable of arguing an internally consistent position. Quite often conservative policies are indistinguishable from their progressive counterparts.

This is a systematic problem, not a grand conspiracy:

It isn’t necessary to engage in conspiracy theory to see how the Left has successfully infiltrated Western political thinking.

It starts with the fertile hearts and minds of the young. Teachers’ colleges, teachers’ unions and education bureaucrats have colluded over time in curriculums setting, gradually shifting the emphasis away from maths and hard science to the softer social sciences and leftist ideology.

The failure of academia and the soft left media:

Multiple examples of the abandonment of scientific rigour and ethics in the interests of political propaganda continue to come to light. Blogger Joanne Nova, (joannenova.com.au) highlights a peer-reviewed leftist paper by psychology professor Stephan Lewandowsky (University of Western Australia), et al, which caused researcher Jose Duarte to be “flummoxed … why a paper so weak was written, but more so why it was ever published …” Yet while demonstrated as containing serious errors, the paper has not been withdrawn. Such is the audacity of the Left.

In similar vein Nova exposes the ABC for telling us that the Bureau of Meteorology claims Queensland has experienced “its worst drought in 80 years”, yet according to the BoM’s own website, the current drought is the worst in only nine years. But a compliant media would rather an inconvenient truth remain untold than spoil the left’s narrative.

Maurice Newman is the chairman of the Prime Minister’s Business Advisory Council. These views are his own.

The Australian
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January 20, 2015 9:09pm
waikatogirl

Reid: My question is: if lefties are so very humane, why can’t they see it’s more beneficial to an individual to tell them how to unleash their potential and let them break their own chains, rather than constantly offering to defend them from the baddies and cuddling them like there’s no tomorrow?
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Cause lefties only know how to run others lives, not allow people to grow and become independent. Independent people can’t be controlled. And what about all the infrastructure, govt departments, etc that wouldn’t be required if people looked after themselves.
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January 20, 2015 9:10pm
cha

And btw, contrary to myth, in the British Isles greater numbers of the ruling/officer classes were killed than the “cannon fodder” of the working classes

Donkeys leading an army of lions.

http://quonation.com/quote/36986
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January 20, 2015 9:12pm
Psycho Milt

How come the left never advocate solutions that teach people how to fish, in favour of solutions that wrap people in cotton wool?

Have the right stopped beating their wives yet? Equally serious question.
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January 20, 2015 9:13pm
deadrightkev

Socialism works great until you run out of other peoples money.

It is that simple.

Not only that but the wealthy are always more socially benevolent. I have never seen a cardigan wearing leftie put their hand in their pocket yet. I have seen plenty hold their hands out.
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January 20, 2015 9:13pm

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