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January 16, 2015 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 16 January 2015

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stephieboy

EAD,

“But remember – there is no conspiracy between the media and the politicians – Stephieboy told me so.”

Whats your beef ? Sky news simply took an editorial decision not to display the Charlie Hebdo poster .

Where is the ” conspiracy ” exactly ?
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January 16, 2015 11:59am
Longknives

NZ Media are desperately trying to drum up outrage over Lordy’s “Oscar Snub”.
Really? Does anyone give a shit??
And does anyone care that Ali ‘I’m a Megastar’ Williams has retired??
Must be a slow as hell news day!
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January 16, 2015 12:03pm
Inandout

kowtow: Most A of Canterbury of late are progressive radicals, and Rowan Williams was one of the worst, and he resigned his position rather than retire, so maybe he was given the push. It was almost as if he wanted to destroy the Church of England from within. The latest appointment Justin Welby has a background in the real world, being an ex oil company employee, so he may have some sense.
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January 16, 2015 12:05pm
Lance

If modern food is so bad….

Why was it that the average caveman ate a paleo diet and had a lifespan 16 years?
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January 16, 2015 12:07pm
SPC

Re 1915.

The Ottoman empire had spent decades resisting nationalists in the Balkans seeking their independence. They were well aware that the Russians coveted Constantinople, and thus maintained capacity to defend their European mainland territory.

Churchill was either ignorant of this, or blinded by ambition to be in Constantinople before the Russians – given they wanted this as part of a post war carve up of the Ottoman empire.
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January 16, 2015 12:10pm
Griff

Its not the food we have available lance its the predisposition we have for preferring fatty and sweet foods
most of us mange to control the urge to eat sweet or fatty foods all the time.

some dont and it impacts badly on their health.
and our health costs.
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January 16, 2015 12:12pm
UglyTruth

Whether they manufacturer them in pairs or not is irrelevant !

It’s relevant because it’s the simplest way to implement a 9/11 style switch which leaves the investigators with the wreckage of an apparently hijacked aircraft. Discrepancies in the aircraft wreckage was one of the lines of evidence used to build a workable theory of what actually happened with 9/11, with the most blatant example being the lack of any actual wreckage for Flight 93 at the supposed crash site.
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January 16, 2015 12:14pm
mikenmild

The strategic scheme was fairly sound. Force the passage of the Dardanelles, threaten Constantinople and possibly knock Turkey out of the war, thus relieving pressure on Russia. Once the naval attack failed, Churchill and his fellow members of the War Committee? decided a military expedition could still achieve the objective.
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January 16, 2015 12:15pm
Lance

@griff
my post was a piss take.
We have stats thrown at us to justify why we must toe a certain line. You can do a lot with stats 🙂
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January 16, 2015 12:15pm
Ross12

Holiday homework reading for Norman , Berl and other members of that clan

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/11348809/World-deflationary-forces-have-swept-away-Switzerlands-defences.html
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January 16, 2015 12:15pm
Inandout

Was interesting listening to Michelle Boag and Mike Williams on the Plunket Show. The Boag is not happy with the French offending Muslims, but surprisingly Willams believes in freedom of speech (with the usual proviso that you don’t falsely shout ‘fire’ in a picture theatre). Don’t know what to make of the Boag.
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January 16, 2015 12:17pm
Maggy Wassilieff

This food stuff is a killer…. there is a direct correlation between food consumption and death.

I’m a high priestess of breatharianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inedia

I’m willing to share my knowledge for a wee fee (well, actually quite a substantial one… insurance cover, etc)
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January 16, 2015 12:21pm
SPC

mikenmild, Turkish forces did not fight the Russians. Pressure on Russia would only ease if allied forces were subsequently sent via the Black Sea to join the eastern front. If.

Whereas taking Constantinople meant being able to prevent their Russian ally ever acquiring it. This was the more likely priority.
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January 16, 2015 12:21pm
mikenmild

SPC
Wikipedia says you are wrong about that:
‘Russian armies generally had the best of it in the Caucasus. Enver Pasha, supreme commander of the Ottoman armed forces, was ambitious and dreamed of re-conquering central Asia and areas that had been lost to Russia previously. He was, however, a poor commander.[93] He launched an offensive against the Russians in the Caucasus in December 1914 with 100,000 troops; insisting on a frontal attack against mountainous Russian positions in winter, he lost 86% of his force at the Battle of Sarikamish.[94]’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus_Campaign
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January 16, 2015 12:23pm
stephieboy

Ugly Truth,

Wreckage of flight 93 not found .?

Plenty here found at Shanksville and donated to the Smithsonian,

http://americanhistory.si.edu/blog/2011/08/collecting-september-11-one-curators-story.html

Also the Radar Track and 1500 items of human DNA matched to passengers and crew show conclusively that Flight 93 crashed there.

https://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/flight93page1
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January 16, 2015 12:33pm
Dave Mann

The Muslim guy who helped the Jewish people by hiding them in the fridge has been rewarded by granting him French Citizenship and the French Interior Minister himself is going to hold the ceremony!

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/15/europe/kosher-grocery-employee-citizenship/

This is a lovely story. So heart warming…. I love reading stuff like this. Wonderful!
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January 16, 2015 12:34pm
kowtow

“Willams believes in freedom of speech”

Easy for pundits to make that claim. The left were responsible for our human rights legislation,bill of rights etc ,plenty of proscription in there.
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January 16, 2015 12:36pm
kowtow

Dave Mann

Yep, the Hollande government is cynically milking this crisis for all it’s worth.
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January 16, 2015 12:37pm
stephieboy

kowtow, would be interested to know from the sidelines what you would be doing in Hollande shoes apart from open warfare against France’s Muslim population ?
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January 16, 2015 12:48pm
kowtow

Certainly won’t be getting my nose covered in shit licking progressive politicians’ arses.
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January 16, 2015 12:52pm
freemark

Hey UT
Any response to that post by stephieboy @ 12.33pm?
Seemed pretty clear to me…
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January 16, 2015 12:54pm
freemark

I liked this from that “wtc7lies” site..
“February, 2009. Hi there. I’ve only spent a few hours updating this site since early 2008, and won’t be updating it in the future unless big news arises. I have several hundred links that I could add to the several thousand here, but enough is enough. The 9/11 “truth” movement has dried up and blown away, having achieved none of its stated objectives or even bothering to get a single significant claim correct. See the “What’s New” section below to get an idea of the type of people who still cling to kooky 9/11 delusions.

However, let’s remember that 9/11 won’t be the last major internet-age event about which people with agendas – whether they be government spokesmen or basement-dwelling crackpots – aggressively spread falsehoods. Unfortunately, falsehoods about the 9/11 attacks have their strongest foothold in Muslim countries (see poll results below), where this website has no effect.
-Mark Roberts”
Says a lot to me – unless he is just an Israeli or CIA or Illuminati or some such stooge..but there must be millions of them…
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January 16, 2015 1:01pm
UglyTruth

Plenty here found at Shanksville and donated to the Smithsonian,

Wherever that wreckage came from, it wasn’t from the “official” site, which consisted of a hole in the middle of a pre-existing trench. The trench is visible in a 1994 U.S.G.S (United States Geological Survey) map.

http://www.bollyn.com/the-shanksville-deception-of-9-11-2/

You can even see grass in the trench.

http://911review.org/93/maps/
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January 16, 2015 1:08pm
dime

“kowtow, would be interested to know from the sidelines what you would be doing in Hollande shoes apart from open warfare against France’s Muslim population ?”

President Dime would put a halt on letting any more in.

If the ones that are there are relying on the state to pay for their kids, id be putting a stop to that real quick.

Move them out of state owned homes if there are in dodgy muslim areas etc.

it cant be that hard.
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January 16, 2015 1:09pm
publicwatchdog

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
What’s your view of THIS one – Kiwibloggers who LOVE ‘freedom of expression’?

Especially YOU – Shawn Herles?

http://yournewswire.com/israel-worldwide-ban-on-criticising-israel-and-jews-new-law-proposed/

Israel: Worldwide Ban On Criticising Israel And Jews, New Law Proposed

Posted by Cyrus Khoroushi in News, World

Israeli politicians have requested that other nations across the world enact legislation that outlaws any criticism of Jews or Israel. They are doing this due to what they say is an increase in “anti-semitism” across the world.

Special treatment for Israel

Lobbyists and MP’s in Israel have previously successfully imposed draconian “anti-racist” laws in many Western countries. Laws to imprison or ban academics from speaking about the holocaust, and imprisonment of people talking criticising Israel on social media, and public condemnation of pro-palestinian sentiment on mainstream media is now a regular occurrence.

Palestinians Uprooted Blog reports:

Israel’s threat of forcing world governments to enact new laws against free speech should not be taken lightly. Israel and its lobbyists have already succeeded in enacting stiff anti-racist laws in most Western countries. These laws have been used on numerous occasions to jail academics, pro-Palestinian activists, and also individuals who have spoken provable facts that are deemed anti-Semitic “canards.”

In Australia, Jewish groups lobbied successfully to outlaw holocaust study and “hate speech.” As with most laws regulating speech and academic study, it has been routinely abused, and is now on the list for repeal. In fact, the law is so tied to Jewish lobbying, that the Jewish newspaper Haaretz published an article: Australian Jews brace for a fight against the repeal of hate laws.
In Canada, Jewish groups lobbied for the enactment of hate speech regulation, and defend its use today. In 1983, Israel lobbyists filed a complaint against Ernst Zundal over a book he had written. He was tried several times, his citizenship application in Canada denied (even though he had resided there for decades), he was detained for two years without trial, and eventually deported to Germany where he was sentenced to 5 years imprisonment.

In France, Israel lobbyists publicly complained about comedian Dieudonne’s parodies of Israel and the holocaust. His home was raided, his shows banned, and hefty fines were imposed. England also followed suit and barred Dieudonne’s entrance into the country. In 2003, the French legislator and Israel lobbyist Pierre Lellouche managed to push through a law which extends the definition of discrimination to include nationalities so anti-Israel activists could be jailed. In 2009, the Lellouche law was used to convict 20 anti-Israel activists.

…………………… ”

What happened to ‘freedom to offend’?

Oh – that’s right – it’s only ok to offend Muslims?

Not allowed to criticise acts of STATE TERRORISM by Israel against Palestinian civilians – because that’s being ‘anti-Semitic’?

Give me a break …..

Penny Bright
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January 16, 2015 1:09pm
kowtow

inandout

You mean this real world ‘progressive’ ,Welby?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11346322/Selective-wrath.html
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January 16, 2015 1:12pm
Jack5

All of us who have been pinged in the police’s goodwill season speeding purge will be pissed off that while we ordinary citizens dutifully pay up, scores of millions of dollars of unpaid fines are remitted each year, usually when no-hopers have incurred the fines.

The Hooerald reported 18 months ago that half a billion of unpaid fines had been remitted over the previous five years, about half of this transformed to community service type sentences and the rest written off.

The mums and dads and grandads and grandkids pinged for topping the maximum during the latest police campaign are overwhelmingly of the sections of society that pay up and get on with it.

Still, if it helps Bill English as he slogs to balance the books …

The Hooerald report:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10842057
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January 16, 2015 1:15pm
publicwatchdog

Missed this did you Mark Freeman?

http://www.ae911truth.org/

Seems that the 9/11 ‘Truth’ movement hasn’t quite yet withered up and died?

http://www.ae911truth.org/news/192-news-media-events-petition-canadian-parliament.html

LANDMARK PETITION SUBMITTED TO PARLIAMENT COULD LAUNCH CANADIAN 9/11 INVESTIGATION

An historic milestone in the 9/11 Truth Movement has been achieved by a dedicated group of activists in Ottawa, Ontario, with the presentation of a petition in the House of Commons requesting a “parliamentary review of the omissions and inconsistencies in the official United States of America 9/11 Commission Report.”

ReThink911 Canada Holds Parliamentary Press Conference

………………………..

_________________________________________________________________________________________

Kind regards

Penny Bright
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January 16, 2015 1:17pm
Harriet

“……Yep, the Hollande government is cynically milking this crisis for all it’s worth….”

It’s worth nothing.

More and more Jews are going to Israel from Europe for reasons of safety – and taking their brains and everything else with them.

The Russians were hardly left with an orchestra when the Jews left there.

I read that and lots more in a Jerusalem Post artical about the consequences on countries when Jews had to leave in the past.

As one comment said “The irony is, it will be Germany who has to foot that expensive bill all across Europe, as the rest of them are already near broke, French taxes are already at 75%. They’ll soon find that anti-semitism isn’t much fun.” 😎

“
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January 16, 2015 1:21pm
Inandout

kowtow: National, to their discredit, are responsible for a lot of the ‘human rights’ legislation.

‘Forty years ago this month (2012) New Zealand’s first piece of human rights legislation, the Race Relations Act 1971, came into force on 1 April, 1972.

Dove-Myer Robinson was the mayor of Auckland. Jack Marshall was prime minister, followed by Norm Kirk later that year.’

Human Rights Act 1993, National in power.

Office of Treaty Settlements 1995, National in power.
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January 16, 2015 1:23pm
Jack5

Penny Dull proves to be another conspiracy theorist. (Her post at 1.15 about the psychotic-gaze Canadians who want their own 9/11 inquiry).

Penny, how sad that you are not the principled protester and a rates revolutionary I had in my ideal picture.

I could see you were one stubborn lady, but I’m well, devastated, to find you are a conspiracy nut, of the ilk of crazy Ugly …
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January 16, 2015 1:26pm
Lance

@penny

So citizens of a country lobbying for a particular issue through democratic means is now a vast Jewish conspiracy ???? WTF !!!

So if a lefty anywhere in the world lobbies for something they are an evil minion of dark sinister forces, or is it different when the left do it?

That then must make you practically the head of the illuminate’?
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January 16, 2015 1:39pm
srylands

“Penny Dull proves to be another conspiracy theorist.”

___________________

Yes I had no idea she was a conspiracy nut. But it figures. I am working on a plug in script to permanently hide all Penny Bright posts. I’ll share it if I master it 🙂

The alternative is to give up Kiwiblog. I have never encountered such an annoying online persona in my life. In the flesh she is no doubt insufferable.
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January 16, 2015 1:41pm
Dave Mann

@kowtow: Yep, the Hollande government is cynically milking this crisis for all it’s worth.

I think thats a bit harsh….
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January 16, 2015 1:44pm
Harriet

“….In 2003, the French legislator and Israel lobbyist Pierre Lellouche managed to push through a law which extends the definition of discrimination to include nationalities so anti-Israel activists could be jailed…….

Oh – that’s right – it’s only ok to offend Muslims?………….”

Stop talking shit Penny.

Brigitte Bardot was fined in France for saying that Muslim immigration should cease.
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January 16, 2015 1:49pm
Fletch

As far as artificial sweeteners, the first time I ever heard about any adverse effects was years ago when Mary Lambie was still doing the Good Morning show. The subject was on sugar and she had people ringing in. One lady rang up and said that she and her husband were both diabetic, hence they drunk diet cola etc. She mentioned that she had had trouble losing weight and also that her husband had a sore on his leg that wouldn’t heal.

Anyway, she found out about the sweetener, gave it up, and lost about 20 pounds without doing anything different. Her husband gave up too and the sore on his leg healed. It turns out that aspartame turns into formaldehyde (wood alcohol) in the body, and the body cannot rid itself of this, so it is stored in the fat cells. So people who consume diet drinks are not doing themselves any favours as far as weight. I have also heard of people having MS-like effects from taking the sweeteners.

A few years back, there was an item on the Holmes show about some woman who was really fit, went to the gym all the time but she consumed heaps of Extra sugar-free gum. She started having weird effects like shaking etc and couldn’t understand why. Eventually she worked out it was the gum and stopped. The ill-effects ceased as well. I believe she was going around the country (at the time) and going to gyms and giving talks about the sweeteners.

Aspartame was denied usage about 9 times by the Food and Drug Administration in the United States. The substance came to be used as a sweetener, but it originally came about when scientists were looking for a cure for stomach ulcers. One scientist had happened to lick his fingers to turn a page after touching the stuff and found that it was sweet. From there they developed it into an artificial sweetener.

If you want to find out more about it, go to http://dorway.com/
The man who started it has since died, but his daughter is looking after the site now. It will tell you all about it, and its history and effects.

I believe the only safe sweetener is Stevia, which is made from the leaves of a plant and is totally natural. It has been used for centuries for this and has no ill effects.
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January 16, 2015 1:50pm
waikatogirl

LRandCentre: waikatogirl – When you’re talking weight control – diet drink is not a problem. In fact being near zero energy value it’s about the only cool thing you can have in limitless quantities if so desired……..

Let’s talk things that can harm you / kill you / cause you to break out in hives. Everything. Everything in life is potentially harmful. And lets talk about your ‘real foods’. What the hell is real food ? It really didn’t exist as it does today 100s / 1000s of years ago. Where are you going to get your organic authentic cave people diet from, huh ? Good luck with that. I’d love to see your pure as the driven snow diet that avoids all code numbers, preservatives, additives, sprays etc. Sounds dreadfully puritanical and boring. I like to live a little.

***
LRandC, you sound a bit intense over this subject. Maybe all that shit stuff is affecting your moods.
What do you reckon Dime, feel better after a month off that crap?

I am one of those lucky ones who don’t have to worry about putting on weight, I can eat anything. 🙂
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January 16, 2015 1:56pm
Kimbo

@ kowtow

kimbo

You come across very smug with your protestant certainies.

Your protestants have been just as oppressive and repressive as the Catholic church ever was.

When was it that the Anglican elite decided it was ok for non Anglicans to enter parliament in Britain and indeed to become head of state.?

Nope, or at least I’d suggest that is more your prejudices speaking than mine.

As I said, I am not trying to whitewash history. I am well aware of the track record of Luther and Calvin in particular. Although Elizabeth I in England was a tricky one due to the inherently political nature of being a recusant, e.g., the various Catholic plots against her, and also the Gunpowder Plot.

From memory the 1830s was the time when the British constitution finally caught up with the fact that when you reject, as the Reformers did, the idea of a human being occupying a particular spiritual office as an infallible guarantee of doctrine and morality, then it follows by extrapolation that no person should be excluded from the civic realm on the basis of their religion.

However, at least Protestantism, holding to a position that “the church that is reformed is continually reforming” is more amneable in principle to asking the question, “have we got this right?”. Once you get a supposedly infallible voice in an authoritarian structure, then that stops – unless there is complete defiance and rejection.

But more to the point, it was NOT by accident that when peaceful democratic reform initially began to occur throughout the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries, it was in those countries calling upon that tradition of rejecting ecclesiastical authoritarianism – Holland, Britain, the USA. In contrast Catholic countries remained backward and repressive (Spain, Portugal, Italy), or where they suddenly defied and rejected Catholicism (France), but the inherent authoritarianism Catholicism had woven into the culture was soon manifest in their revolutions. Could democracy have begun to first sprout, grow, and then flourish where the Pope held sway? Not in my opinion, no.

To me, the Pope’s statement is just a typically arrogant authoritarian attitude that refuses to consider that others are allowed to think and say what they want…even if it offends “his holiness” and his followers. Vicar of Christ? Not a chance. No such thing on earth, so therefore NO human being will ever be considered infallible.
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January 16, 2015 1:56pm
Harriet

Watch this Penny:

They cut her head off – on a pedestrian crossing – while the police and soldiers stand about chatting.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=550_1421270303
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January 16, 2015 1:58pm
Jack5

Fresh bone to chew on, folks:

Stephen Franks has a good post in his blog on the bullshit that is restorative justice:

http://www.stephenfranks.co.nz/
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January 16, 2015 2:03pm
Redbaiter

Yip 100% right it would take a lobotomy or a lot more drugs than I have ever seen to reduce my IQ to normal red
average 😆
much rather be 1/1000

The very fact that someone would feel compelled to come onto a site like this and boast about their IQ tells you they’re probably struggling to reach below-average from sub-below-average.

Readers on here have nothing to go on regarding your own claimed intelligence other than your frequent boasting and your contributions to this site. Nothing you write here portrays you as having any kind of IQ that might come close to that of a hairy nosed wombat.

As for Asperger’s, medical specialists quite commonly state that suffering from this affliction is no guarantee of a high IQ and that sufferers stretch across the normal spectrum of intelligence.

I think you’re just dumb Grief, and I say that because you can’t write, you are absolutely tits at comprehending, you boast continuously (the most significant sign of a low IQ) and you frequently recount personal tales here that are supposed to impress readers on some level or other, when my guess is the most frequent real reaction is boredom. Your ability to understand concepts is zilch, and any engagement with you leads to too much time being spent explaining ideas that a person of average IQ would latch onto in a second.

Don’t boast to me about your IQ again Grief. Its bullshit and you’re just another self promoting narcissistic dumbarse.
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January 16, 2015 2:18pm
Redbaiter

kowtow, would be interested to know from the sidelines what you would be doing in Hollande shoes apart from open warfare against France’s Muslim population ?

So its too late for anything other than surrender and we should just knuckle down and accept the fact the Western countries will just become another Muslim caliphate?

Great attitude.
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January 16, 2015 2:21pm
Fletch

If anyone is interested in the history of Islamic aggression and Jihad, I have just started reading a great book called, The Legacy Of Jihad: Islamic Holy War And The Fate Of Non-muslims, by Andrew G Bostom. It is very good in that he has delved deep into the sources and had them translated (as Ibn Warraq points out in the Foreward) –

Dr. Bostom is the first scholar to have had translated from the Arabic the works of such commentators on Sura IX .29 as al-Baydawi, al-Suyuti, al-Zamakhshari, and al-Tabari. Other primary sources translated for the first time into English include documents on jihad such as the one written by al-Ghazali, the celebrated Islamic mystic or Sufi, laying to rest the myth that Sufis always interpreted jihad as an inner moral struggle against one’s lower instincts. Muslim jurists and philosophers include Shiites al-Hilli and al-Amili (the latter translated from Persian), and representatives of all four schools of Sunni jurisprudence, Averroes (Maliki ), Ibn Taymiyya (Hanbali), Shaybani (Hanafi), al-Mawardi (Shafi’i), Ibn Qudama (Hanbali), and Ibn Khaldun (Maliki).

Similarly, Dr. Bostom is the first scholar to have overseen the translations of important, and, in some cases, neglected or forgotten, secondary sources from French works on jihad by Edmond Fagnan, Roger Arnaldez, Charles Emmanuel Dufourcq, Clement Huart, Dimitar Angelov, and Maria Mathilde Alexandrescu-Dersca Bulgaru. Thus Dr. Bostom’s collection is truly wide ranging, combining Shiite and Sunni, classical and modern, Qur’anic commentators and Islamic jurists and philosophers. There are regional examples of jihad campaigns as well as analyses of jihad slavery by some of the most learned modern scholars of the holy war.

Dr. Bostom has even taken care to find and reproduce beautifully color-coded maps, with an accompanying chronology , depicting the initial five centuries of jihad conquests, and further primary documents detailing the havoc wrought by Muslims in the name of jihad across three continents, over the period of a millennium. Scholars and nonspecialists alike should be grateful to Dr. Bostom for making these documents available for further research. I wrote “should be grateful”-but will everyone be pleased to have this comprehensive anthology that gainsays the myth of Islamic tolerance in an irrefutable way? And why did it take a nonspecialist such as Dr. Bostom, a scholar from another discipline-clinical epidemiology and randomized clinical trials in medicine-to discover, and have translated and published for the first time in English, this primary and secondary source material? Where were the Orientalists,’ Islamologists, and professors of Near Eastern studies?

Andrew G. Bostom (2005-10-24T22:00:00+00:00). The Legacy of Jihad: Islamic Holy War and the Fate of Non-Muslims (Kindle Locations 264-281). Prometheus Books. Kindle Edition.

It is 759 pages though, so might take a while to get through.
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January 16, 2015 2:28pm
Nostradamus

Penny Bright:

I note you gleefully pointed out (on yesterday’s general debate thread) that Freemark has received a first strike.

I’d suggest you familiarise yourself with the Kiwiblog comments policy:

Personal Details

Give other commenters the courtesy of referring to them by the name or alias they use on this blog. Do not reveal personal details about them such as their name, address, phone number etc. unless it is somehow connected to a public issue. If in doubt, check.

I note, for example, that DPF gave David Garrett a strike for the following reason:

[DPF: You’ve had multiple warnings before not to do this. This is strike 3, and a week’s suspension. Just address the argument of other commenters, not who they might be]

If you insist on using what you believe to be Freemark’s real name, then you have no reason to complain if DPF gives you a strike.
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January 16, 2015 2:28pm
Fletch

No such thing on earth, so therefore NO human being will ever be considered infallible.

Well Kimbo, you actually have to believe in the infallibility of people. Was Matthew infallible when he wrote his Gospel? How about Mark? Luke? John? Paul? If you believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God, then you have to believe that those who wrote it were given the grace of infallibility whilst they were writing it. As a Catholic, I believe that Jesus granted this to the Church for all time. eg, “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.” And “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” – Now that is real authority.

Now, I am not suggesting that every little thing the Pope says is infallible. As I have said before, this is only when he speaks ex-cathedra on Faith and Morals and is a very definite thing.
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January 16, 2015 2:39pm
freemark

Who received a strike..me?
What is a strike?
Was it for calling Penny a corrupt, lying, mental, hypocritical, thieving bludger?
I’m just hoping Penny will sue me like she has promised.
But she won’t, she is not allowed to..
Her owners don’t want to be exposed.
There is a fair bit of truth that you are a bit frightened of coming out, isn’t there Penny?
Parasite.
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January 16, 2015 2:43pm
Manolo

The incompetent Messiah has a lot to answer for: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/01/15/obama-takes-heat-for-terror-approach-as-threat-spreads/

The Obama administration drew fire Thursday from a growing list of frustrated lawmakers over the release of more Guantanamo detainees — this time Yemeni terrorists to the volatile Arabian Peninsula — as concerns mount over the spreading threat of Islamic terrorism, and the administration’s refusal to publicly call out Islam’s radical elements.

The Department of Defense announced Wednesday that five Yemeni terror suspects held at Guantanamo Bay were released — with four of the five heading for Oman, Yemen’s neighbor.

The release comes despite knowledge that one of the two assassins who carried out the Charlie Hebdo massacre in Paris traveled to Yemen in 2011, and met with the radical American cleric Anwar al-Awlaki.
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January 16, 2015 2:53pm
Nostradamus

UglyTruth has been very busy exposing false flags – and leaves no stone unturned in his quest for the truth – so here’s another story that UglyTruth may wish to investigate:

Recent reports of a large-scale massacre by Boko Haram in the northeastern state of Borno have served as a brutal reminder of the threat posed to Nigeria by the Islamist extremist group.
…
Now, new satellite imagery obtained and released by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch (HRW) appears to confirm that considerable damage occurred in the towns of Baga and Doro Gowon in Borno state.
…
A number of witness accounts have trickled out after the attacks. One man told Amnesty that he had personally seen about 100 people killed before he ran into the nearby forest. However, confirming such reports has proved exceptionally difficult. Nigerian troops have been fighting Boko Haram in the area, and it is still too dangerous to travel to. Militias attacked cellphone masts in the area several months ago, meaning most mobile phones have no connection.

So we have satellite evidence and witness accounts.

So, UglyTruth, is this story a false flag, or is Boko Haram a group of Islamist extremists who are doing horrible things?
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January 16, 2015 2:56pm
Kimbo

@ Fletch

…Now, I am not suggesting that every little thing the Pope says is infallible. As I have said before, this is only when he speaks ex-cathedra on Faith and Morals and is a very definite thing.

Cheers, Fletch, and always a pleasure to dialogue with a gentleman such as yourelf.

I actually don’t like the term “infallible” as you end up having to prove a negative – something that is basically impossible. Plus of its very nature it invites endless stupid questions like “where did Cain’s wife come from?”! I think “trustworthy and wholly reliable in all matter of life and faith” is a better phrase.

I’m prepared to grant that to Scripture, and, yes, that is something that God wrought through the writers of Scripture. But no, not the Pope. Yes, I am aware the Catholic doctrine of Papal infallibility does not apply to every thing that comes out of the Bishop of Rome’s mouth – including this latest statement we are discussing. Despite that, it is not the Pope who has that authority on earth. Instead, the Holy Spirit is the sole reliable earthly interpreter of the Scripture. So we must seek to listen humbly to his voice speaking through Scripture – and not the opinion of men, be they the bishop of Rome, the Mormon apsotles, the Watchtower Society of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, whomever.

IMHO, and that of Protestants for some 500 years, to equate the Matthew 16 passage with the supposedly ex cathedra statements by the bishop of Rome does not fly, for a number of reasons

1. The nature of the grace given to Christ’s church, and Peter’s role (exemplary? titular?) within it are not precisely defined in the text. Instead, Catholic apologists argue backwards from the doctrines and circumstances of their church to the text- not a good way to determine what it meant to Matthew’s original recipients. Also the Catholic appeal to church tradition is one which, as you are no doubt aware, Protestants do not accept as a binding form of authority.

2. Even if Peter was granted what Catholics allege he was, there is no proof that Protestants accept that (a) he became the bishop of Rome, and (b) that the authority carried on to his successors. In the one example we have of interpretive authority being exercised in the Early Church (the Jerusalem Council, Acts 15) Peter is but ONE voice, along with Paul and also James – whose judgement in the circumstances was considered the final word. So that is a multiplicity of voices – like the Presbyterian form of church government 🙂
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January 16, 2015 3:14pm
waikatogirl

AshleyS: I’m addicted to the V energy drinks – and to a lesser degree, coke and lemonade – and I know they’re really bad for me. I made a conscious choice not to buy any cans of V this week and have been drinking water instead at work. We’ll see how long that lasts.

***
Good luck with at least cutting back Ashley. dime said, it’s like giving up crack.

I’m lucky I never had enough fizzy to get addicted. Had the odd fanta or coke, etc but mum always told us there was plenty of water in the tap when we were thirsty. Can’t stand much fizzy these days, just 1 glass now and then but always the sugar version.

I have been addicted to coffee, headaches,etc till out of my system…
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January 16, 2015 3:27pm
UglyTruth

endless stupid questions like “where did Cain’s wife come from?”

It’s not a stupid question.
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January 16, 2015 3:35pm
jcuk

It is funny how religious folk get their nickers in a twist …John P. Dehlin, host of the Mormon Stories website and podcast — a hub of discussion for thousands of disaffected Mormons is in danger of being excommunicated forr being an apostate in advocating gay marraige and ordination of women …. heck New Zealand has had women Bishops and the UK CoE have just agreed to ordination and an aunt of mine had her Bishops licence and her own private chapel long ago.
Lovely place the Morman HQ complex, been there twice now, but their anti women stance, or keeping women “in their subservient place” is regretable.
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January 16, 2015 3:38pm
UglyTruth

So, UglyTruth, is this story a false flag, or is Boko Haram a group of Islamist extremists who are doing horrible things?

I don’t have any reason to think that the accounts are untrue, although calling them jihadists or even Muslims is a bit of a stretch when their most notorious acts are in conflict with the Quran.
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January 16, 2015 3:43pm
stephieboy

UglyTruth (4,623 comments) says:
January 16th, 2015 at 1:08 pm

Bollyn and yourself need to stop playing silly games . Both of you need to explain the DNA found and Shanksville matching passengers and crews of flight 93 .

There is no evidence of Radar track post crash nor any ATC communications post crash .Provide some ?

Sigh… Like the “fake” Police officers document the whereabouts of the missing passengers and crew of Flight 93 ?

Then we can say Bollyn and yourself have something .!
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January 16, 2015 3:46pm
Kimbo

@ UglyTruth

endless stupid questions like “where did Cain’s wife come from?”

It’s not a stupid question.

I mis-spoke.

It is an irrelevant question in the light of the cultural context and competing pagan creation stories of the time, the genres in which the account appears within Genesis 12-50, the rest of Genesis, the entire Pentateuch and the whole Tanakh/Old Testament and completed Christian canon.

Instead, the relevant question is what did it mean to the original recipients…and therefore what can (and cannot) it mean for us.
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January 16, 2015 3:46pm
Albert_Ross

Thought people might be interested in this, about what can and can’t be concluded about speed limits from this year’s holiday road toll:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11387387
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January 16, 2015 3:46pm
Fletch

Kimbo, hmmm, as far as even the New Testament goes, you can see that Peter is the definite leader and who the others defer to.

Probably the best text to read (I have posted it before I think), is a transcription of Scott Hahn’s lecture on the Primacy of Peter.

http://catholicfaithdefenders.com/tag/old-testament

He goes into a lot of this in there. I think it is brilliant and answers a lot of questions.

Anyway – Peter –

But what does the Church do after Jesus is ascended into heaven, after Judas has committed suicide? Turn to Acts 1 to see what the Church does in response to Judas’ death and Jesus’ departure. It’s very interesting and important because Peter stands up with the eleven in the Upper Room, verse 15, and He speaks about Judas’ death and He says, “It was known beforehand and had even been prophesied in the Old Testament” and so what should we do now?

Notice that Peter — and by the way, notice that it is Peter who stands up. He’s not just contributing an opinion. When Peter declares an opinion it is binding and immediately following, exactly what he advises. And what is it he advises? He quotes the Psalms, “Let his habitation become desolate and let there be no one to live in it.” But then he doesn’t say, “Hey, guys, we’re from twelve down to eleven. We better hang together now or we might end up hanging separately. No we’re just down to eleven and it’s going to be us from now on.” He doesn’t say that.

He says, “His office, let another take.” Or as the King James version says, “His bishopric, let other men take.” The word there is episcopae, where we get the word episcopacy or episcopal. It’s the word for bishop. In other words, there’s an epioscopal office that is now empty and vacant. Peter stands up and says, “Well obviously, automatically, in line with the Old Testament tradition, in line with this Old Testament practice of patriarchal succession at every level in God’s family, not just at top with Moses and his seed and his successors, but even the seventy elders, when they died, they left empty offices that must be filled,” Peter is just obviously appealing to this Old Testament precedent is saying, “Let another man his bishopric, his office, take.”

And they draw lots and they choose Matthias. No debate, no novelty. The other ten don’t say, “Huh, what are you talking about, Simon? This is weird.” No, they understand, but even more, they submit. There’s no debate, no discussion.

Notice also in Acts 2, Peter’s responsibility, not just over the ten, but over all of Jerusalem. He is the one who preaches the first sermon, that Pentecost, verse 14. He is the spokesman for the Church to the world at Pentecost.

Then you go on in chapter 3, we see Peter’s second sermon. We also see that Peter is the instrument by which the first real healing miracle occurs, the lame man in the temple in Jerusalem in the portico called Solomon, I should say.

Then in chapter 4, we see Peter’s pre-eminence emerging even further as he exercises his teaching authority over the Jewish senate, the Sanhedrin. He’s put on trial, so you think he’s going to be defensive. He’s going to come to His own defense saying, “Oh gosh, guys, you know, please don’t do these things.” But no. He puts the Sanhedrin on trial for crucifying the Lord. He exercises supreme authority over the Jewish senate. It left them flabbergasted! Who does this fisherman think he is? The vicar of Christ over the family of God. And so they’re set free. They are astounded at his boldness.

Then in Acts 5, Ananias and Sapphira, two wealthy members of the Church, sell some land and then lie about how much money they gave to the Church. Peter said to Ananias, “What are you doing?” Ananias says, “Well I gave you all the money.” And Peter says, “You are lying to the Holy Spirit.” Ananias said, “No, I’m just lying to you, Peter.” But no. In lying to Peter, Ananias was lying to the Holy Spirit and to the Church. He’s struck dead! A few hours later his wife Sapphira comes along. Peter says, “What happened?” “Oh, we sold the land for this amount, and we gave you all the money.” And, “Hark, the footsteps of the men who just carried out your husband are coming for you.” She drops dead! “And great fear came upon all those who heard of it,” in verse 5.

And there are many more examples to show that Peter was the leader, the one to whom the rest deferred.

Now, this is not only in the NT. The life of the Church does not end after the Bible. Look at the works of the early church fathers. eg Cyprian –

If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

Origen

“[I]f we were to attend carefully to the Gospels, we should also find, in relation to those things which seem to be common to Peter . . . a great difference and a preeminence in the things [Jesus] said to Peter, compared with the second class [of apostles]. For it is no small difference that Peter received the keys not of one heaven but of more, and in order that whatsoever things he binds on earth may be bound not in one heaven but in them all, as compared with the many who bind on earth and loose on earth, so that these things are bound and loosed not in [all] the heavens, as in the case of Peter, but in one only; for they do not reach so high a stage with power as Peter to bind and loose in all the heavens” (Commentary on Matthew 13:31 [A.D. 248])

There are many more quotes like this from the Fathers of the Early Church.
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January 16, 2015 3:50pm
waikatogirl

Jack5: Stephen Franks has a good post in his blog on the bullshit that is restorative justice:

**
Good coverage of the lawyers, etc getting pissed off with the new restorative justice laws on the front page of yesterday’s Wakato Times.
Every victim and person up in court has to now be approached to have prior discussions on restorative Justice before the case is heard. Huge backlog for all court cases is the result.
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January 16, 2015 4:03pm
Ryan Sproull

Ugh. I just read a literalist apologist’s explanation of Cain’s wife. I feel like my brain is dribbling out of my ears.
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January 16, 2015 4:06pm
Kimbo

@ Fletch

And there are many more examples to show that Peter was the leader, the one to whom the rest deferred

…indeed, including the first conversion of Gentiles (the household of Cornelius) which you did not include in your copy-and-paste. But regrettably you have chosen to omit the example I mentioned – the Jerusalem Council- where Peter’s is neither the first nor the last word. And for a theory such as Papal infallibility built on the back of Peter the supposed Bishiop of Rome, you require all of the data to fit.

Also, btw – in the examples you gave, Peter was certainly NOT the bishop of Rome.

Look at the works of the early church fathers. eg Cyprian…[A.D. 251], Origen…[A.D. 248]…There are many more quotes like this from the Fathers of the Early Church.

And sadly, I note you are talking right past me as you do not seem to have taken note of the point I went out of my way to make,“…the Catholic appeal to church tradition is one which, as you are no doubt aware, Protestants do not accept as a binding form of authority”.

Reminds me of the time I waded through an article by a Catholic writer appealing to Eastern Orthodox readers to adopt the Western tradition of the filioque clause. For a number of pages I read suspending judgement, thinking, “ok, sounds plausible, but you will have to back this up this ‘brilliant’ (to quote your description of Scott Hahn’s lecture) if rather complex argument with some clinching authoritative source”. When I finally got to the last page I was rather diappointed to find that the entire air-castle was built on his appeal to accept the argument he had made…because the Pope, the bishop of Rome said it was so! As a Protestant I may accept filioque but I can assure you papal infallibility is not the reason, and more to the point, as the Great Schism of 1054 between the Western and Eastern churches occurred precisely over the disputed primacy of the Pope, not a single one of his intended Orthodox readers would likely change their minds either!
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January 16, 2015 4:09pm
Ryan Sproull

The trouble for Protestants is that they either have to rely on (personal interpretation of) the Bible or personal spiritual experience as their ultimate authority. But the Bible was pieced together on the same grounds that the Catholic Church was, and everyone’s personal interpretations and experiences differ enough that they keep splitting off into new churches.
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January 16, 2015 4:12pm
Manolo

Smart advice from stephieboy: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/01/obama-to-senate-dems-im-going-to-play-offense-114307.html
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January 16, 2015 4:17pm
UglyTruth

Bollyn and yourself need to stop playing silly games

Pointing out why the “official” crash site of Flight 93 is fake isn’t a silly game. If the plane buried itself into the soft ground like the apologists suggest, then the wing marks would have been made at the same time as the central hole, not years earlier as the USGS map and related photos show.
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January 16, 2015 4:25pm
UglyTruth

It is an irrelevant question in the light of the cultural context and competing pagan creation stories of the time, the genres in which the account appears within Genesis 12-50, the rest of Genesis, the entire Pentateuch and the whole Tanakh/Old Testament and completed Christian canon.

Could you be any more vague?

It’s relevant because it identifies a problem with the usual interpretation of Adam and Eve being the first of mankind. The book of Jasher speaks of an iron ploughshare being used by Cain, which suggests that a post stone-age society existed at that time.

If the first chapters are taken as a chronological account like the rest of the pentateuch, then the question of Cain’s wife can be easily explained.
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January 16, 2015 4:35pm
Kimbo

@ Ryan Sproull

The trouble for Protestants is that they either have to rely on (personal interpretation of) the Bible or personal spiritual experience as their ultimate authority. But the Bible was pieced together on the same grounds that the Catholic Church was, and everyone’s personal interpretations and experiences differ enough that they keep splitting off into new churches.

I don’t dispute that that has become the paradigm, especially where religious freedom has occurred. However, that is the price of freedom.

More to the point, it is not a faithful understanding of either

1. The Scriptures, or
2. the intent and message of the Reformers

Instead “searching the Scriptures to see if these things were so” is a rigourous disciplined on-going corporate process.

Sure, there are a whole bunch of denominations – although let’s face it, the likes of ‘Bishop’ Brian Tamaki, or some half-wit leading a church of 6 people in his garage is NOT a denomination – it is a sect. And I wholeheartedly agree that it is in that backwater of miserable misguided ‘enthusiasts’ that you get reliance on personal experience and interpretation running amok. But come on! How many weirdo barking-mad Catholic mystics wrapped up as ‘saints’ are there?! Theresa of Avila!? Ignatius Loyola?!

The “big” Protestant denominations are well known and established- Lutheran, Reformed/Presbyterian, C of E, Baptist, Methodist, etc

Also the catholic “unity” which you imply is primarily administrative and bureacratic. So what? It has little practical effect on the lives of those at the grass roots. Catholics insist only they can truly administer communion through their clergy, ordained by the laying on of hands with an unbroken line of bishops l extending back to the time of Peter…yeah right! Instead, Protestants can turn up to a Baptist, Anglican, or Presbyterian church and take the sacrament. Sounds like unity as envisaged in the Scriptures to me.
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January 16, 2015 4:43pm
Manolo

Animals like these cannot be considered Aussies: http://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/australia/australian-islamic-state-fugitive-boasts-of-bringing-the-war-home/ar-AA8dtrm?ocid=mailsignout
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January 16, 2015 4:45pm
Kimbo

@ UglyTruth

If the first chapters are taken as a chronological account like the rest of the pentateuch…

And if I have understood you right (not an easy feat) that is an assumption that is almost certainly incorrect. The primeval narrative of Genesis 1-11 is not chronological. Instead, it is deliberately adopting the form (but rejecting the theology) of similar pagan creation accounts to argue against them. It is like one half of a telephone conversation. Therefore it is highly stylised, and not a (to quote you) chronological account. Mind you even the patriarchal narrative of Genesis 12-50 is also stylised in points, but obviously not as much.

Anyone looking to Genesis 1-11 for “science” or “history” (neither were a form of thinking that even existed at the time it was written) is projecting an alien form of interpretation onto the texts…and they will therefore accordingly misinterpret them.
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January 16, 2015 4:58pm
Odakyu-sen

The problem with the notion that the Bible is the “infallible word of God” is that you don’t have the original source text. The words you have in your English Bible are translations of translations (of translations).

The original words might have been infallible, but I am pretty sure that there is a risk that something could have been lost (or gained) in the translation.

Remember: it’s not the words but the concepts that the words represent that are important. This makes it dangerous to get hung up on the translated words themselves.
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January 16, 2015 5:00pm
SPC

Ryan, “the trouble for Protestants is that they either have to rely on (personal interpretation of) the Bible or personal spiritual experience as their ultimate authority”

Is accountability to God, rather than a human institution, a troubling problem for Protestants? The point of God is ultimate accountability of both the individual and authority over humanity on earth to God. And that authority over humanity on earth is both secular and clerical/that of the church.

The real problem is one for both Protestant and Catholic, the inheritance of an imperfect tradition. Neither the bible word nor the church record is beyond reasonable and necessary criticism. This calls into question the credibility of the bible as the inspired word of God and the providence of guidance by the “holy spirit” inspired ASP. The arrogant sods even call themselves holy when Jesus said to call only God holy.
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January 16, 2015 5:04pm
Griff

Catholics deleted any words they didn’t like from the testaments including this passage from The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene

3) Peter answered and spoke concerning these same things.

4) He questioned them about the Savior: Did He really speak privately with a woman and not openly to us? Are we to turn about and all listen to her? Did He prefer her to us?

5) Then Mary wept and said to Peter, My brother Peter, what do you think? Do you think that I have thought this up myself in my heart, or that I am lying about the Savior?

6) Levi answered and said to Peter, Peter you have always been hot tempered.

7) Now I see you contending against the woman like the adversaries.

8) But if the Savior made her worthy, who are you indeed to reject her? Surely the Savior knows her very well.

9) That is why He loved her more than us. Rather let us be ashamed and put on the perfect Man, and separate as He commanded us and preach the gospel, not laying down any other rule or other law beyond what the Savior said.

10) And when they heard this they began to go forth to proclaim and to preach.

The misogyny in Christianity belongs to the papists not the teachings of Jesus.
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January 16, 2015 5:06pm
Reid

The best English translation is the Geneva Bible. That predates the King James, which while regarded by many as a good translation, actually isn’t.
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January 16, 2015 5:06pm
Jack5

So the Antarctic toothfish pirates go free.

They wouldn’t let the NZ sailors board, so the NZ Navy is on its way home.

Meanwhile, McCulley is talking to Panama and Spain seeking the owners.

Might as well as scrap the NZ Navy and do all the negotiations through lawyers.

Better still. contract patrols to one of the big international security firms who don’t shrink from a fight, and replace McCulley with someone who can scrap.
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January 16, 2015 5:06pm
SPC

Ryan, the existence of women in equal numbers to men is explained by male and female being born in their our image.

The idea of there being a Goddess occurs on the idea of there being a God. A Creator has to become God and Goddess to create in their our image.

The idea of a woman occurs on there being a man.

Clearly Kiana was born, when Cain was born.

The paradox is not that there was a woman that was Cain’s wife, but in the word of God keeping Goddess behind a veil.
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January 16, 2015 5:13pm
Kimbo

@ Odakyu-sen

The problem with the notion that the Bible is the “infallible word of God” is that you don’t have the original source text. The words you have in your English Bible are translations of translations (of translations).

The original words might have been infallible, but I am pretty sure that there is a risk that something could have been lost (or gained) in the translation.

Remember: it’s not the words but the concepts that the words represent that are important. This makes it dangerous to get hung up on the translated words themselves.

That is certainly the argument of Islam – and much of paganism and scientism as well, due to its obsession with “accuracy”. Which is another reason I don’t think the term “infallible” is helpful when considering what the Scriptures claim of themselves.

However, working from the principle that Scripture is its own best interpreter, that is not the case. The early church had no problem using the Greek translation (the Septuagint, or LXX) of the Hebrew Scriptures. Indeed, the writers of the New Testament quote it extensively – as they had to seeing they were speaking and writing in Greek, the universal language of the time.

We also have the example of the bilingual (Aramaic and Greek-speaking) Jesus reading from a translation in Luke 4:17-19. Or if he wasn’t reading a translation, the text translates what he read!

More to the point, unlike Muslims with Arabic, Jewish theology has NEVER claimed their Scriptures must only be properly read and understood in the original language. Helpful? Yes. But no more.

And from a practical point of view, despite the claims of “chinese whispers” and altered texts, and despite the undoubted and extensive existence of textual variants (which also exist with the Koran!) there are NO significant doctrinal differences. They did not need the modern technology of type-setting or computer spell-checks to produce faithful copies and translations. The Isaiah scroll from the Dead Sea discovery pushed back by 1000 years our oldest existing copy…and in that 1000 years there were no significant doctrinal change. Some variations in words ane phrases? Sure. But anything that makes you throw up your hands and go, “This has all been changed!”? Nope
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January 16, 2015 5:17pm
SPC

Ugly Truth, 4.35pm – we had to agree sometime.

The history of human settlement began around 10,000BCE. When we developed pastoral farming and cultivation of crops. This ended the age of hunter gathering.

The meaning of the Hebrew word reshit – taken to mean creation is more renewal as in a new cultural order began when man had Creator Godfaith rather than pagan one.

Adam had Creator Godfaith, he was a new born kind on the earth in that sense. C4000BCE.

The Sabbath day of rest could well refer to neither looking after domesticated flocks or tending to crops – activities that were by then 6000 years old. In that sense a history is recorded.
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January 16, 2015 5:22pm
Manolo

A defeat for those who embrace the religion of peace: http://www.wncn.com/story/27857809/duke-university-to-hold-weekly-muslim-prayer-service

Duke University has canceled its plans to have a Muslim prayer announcement broadcast from Duke Chapel’s bell tower on Friday afternoons.

The university announced its plans to facilitate a weekly call to prayer; but on Thursday, Duke officials acknowledged the decision resulted in unintended backlash. An official said the school changed its mind after it was “presented with some significant and credible concerns about safety and security.”
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January 16, 2015 5:23pm
Kimbo

@ SPC

Adam had Creator Godfaith, he was a new born kind on the earth in that sense. C4000BCE.

Yeah, but that is assuming the primeval narratives in Genesis chapters 4 and 10 are an “accurate” account, so you get something like Bishop Ussher’s chronology. More likely they are highly stylised, aping existing pagan genealogies (where men lived for hundreds of thousands of years) so that readers would readily understand the surrounding material in Chapter 1 to 11 are deliberately refuting pagan beliefs. It is a form of satire, like an early Charlie Hebdo! But with a reverent monotheistic purpose to establish the efficacy of Israel’s God, Yahweh, and underline he is the only one with whom she must dealing.

So Genesis chapter 11 and the story of the tower of Babel(Babylon) is a criticism/refutation of the pagan beliefs around their ziggurats.
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January 16, 2015 5:34pm
Fletch

Kimbo, so you don’t have a problem with Luther removing books of the Bible then (which we now call the Apocrypha), books which even Jesus referred to in the New Testament? (eg, the seven brothers and their mother who were martyred for their faith).

I still don’t see where your authority comes from. What if two people in your church have a disagreement about a point of scripture, and both believe they are being “led by the spirit”. Then who is right? More often than not, one will leave and go to another church that is in agreement with him. If it is a pastor who is in disagreement, he is likely to go start his own church.

It all comes down to authority.

Instead, Protestants can turn up to a Baptist, Anglican, or Presbyterian church and take the sacrament.

Well, I hate to be argumentative, but I believe that if you receive the “sacrament” in an Anglican, Baptist, or Prysbyterian church, you are eating only bread. In the Catholic church we believe this to be the actual body and blood of Christ.
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January 16, 2015 5:35pm
Don the Kiwi

Just watched Dinesh D’Souza’s film – “2016 – Obama’s America.”

Very interesting, a well put together doco and sound research and argument.

Really does demonstrate what forces formed Obama and why he is such a socialist today, and the detrimental – even disastrous – effect his policies are having on America .

Great watch.
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January 16, 2015 5:36pm
Griff

In the Catholic church we believe this to be the actual body and blood of Christ.

Cannibals and vampires …
Such a strange thing to be proud of eating human flesh and drinking blood.
Add the zombie Jesus and you have a trinity of horror.
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January 16, 2015 5:41pm
SPC

Kimbo, “Anyone looking to Genesis 1-11 for “science” or “history” (neither were a form of thinking that even existed at the time it was written)”

I disagree. The divide between fundamentalists and modern (post science) apologetics leads both into entrenched (and wrong) positions.

It was rudimentary science – based on observation. An assumption that the life process was the order of creation. Light and water were required for the (separate atmosphere) earth to be fertile – bring forth food for living things. And the top of the food chain an in dominion was a sentient being aware that the natural environment was created and was not god, but the work of God. Thus man could have dominion over it and yet be accountable to God.
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January 16, 2015 5:41pm
Fletch

The Bible does not interpret itself.

Because the non-Catholic proclamation about how no one or no church is infallible, IS in the form of an infallible statement. It is a universal, dogmatic, timeless declaration of fact…to those that say it.

And so, logically, if no one is infallible, how then does anyone know absolute truth? Or, how can one even be so infallible to prescribe that no one is infallible?

The Catholic Church has a simple answer. The Holy Spirit speaks through the Church (which contains all believers, including priests, religious, bishops and the Bishop of Rome) and through prayer, fasting, dialogue, debate, and study…the will of God about a particular issue is arrived at and proclaimed by the Church as true. The process in each case takes years. Never has a Pope arbitrarily, outside that normally very long process of discerning God’s will, made any dogmatic proclamation. And never has a Pope made a proclamation of truth without the consensus of the other bishops of the church.

Thus, while the Pope is said to have the office of the keys, he has never used them without being in union with the doctrine of the full church. Furthermore, no doctrine has ever been proclaimed unless the church can confirm that the doctrine was believed and held true during the lives of the Apostles and in keeping with their direct teachings. Therefore, although some doctrines have been proclaimed since the last apostle died, the Church can demonstrate that the first church under the Apostles’ leadership held such beliefs. Like the law of gravity, the proclamation of the law later on does not create it, but only explains and articulates what has always been true.

http://www.stanwilliams.com/catholic/Itself.htm
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January 16, 2015 5:42pm
SPC

Fletch, those who believe that bread is the actual body and blood of Christ are also free to believe that the office of the Pope is that of Vicar of Christ and not Simon Peter who originally held the position.
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January 16, 2015 5:45pm
Viking2

An Arab had spent many days crossing the desert without finding a source of water. It got so bad that his camel died of thirst.

He crawled through the sands, certain that he was breathing his last breath, when suddenly, he saw a shiny object sticking out of the sand several yards ahead of him.

He crawled to the object, pulled it out of the sand, and discovered that he had a Manischewitz wine bottle.

It appeared that there may be a drop or two left in the bottle, so he unscrewed the top, and out popped a genie. BUT this was no ordinary Genie. This genie appeared to be a Chasidic [ultra religious] Rabbi, complete with black alpaca coat, black hat, side curls, and tzitzis.

‘Vell kid,’ said the genie, ‘you know how it voiks. You got tree vishes.’

‘I’m not going to trust you,’ says the Arab. ‘I’m not going to trust a Jewish genie!’

‘Vott you got to lose? Looks ta me – you’re a goner anyvay!’

The Arab thought about this for a minute, and decided that the genie was right. ‘Okay, I wish I were in a lush oasis, with plentiful food and drink.’

* * * * * * * P O O F * * * * * * * * *

The Arab found himself in the most beautiful oasis he had ever seen and he was surrounded with jugs of wine and platters of delicacies.

‘Okee-dokee kiddo, vat’s your second vish?’

‘My second wish is that I were rich beyond my wildest dreams.’

* * * * * * * P O O F * * * * * * * * *

The Arab found himself surrounded by treasure chests filled with rare old coins and precious gems.

‘Okay kid, you got just vone more vish.. Best you should make it a good vone!’

After thinking for a few minutes, the Arab says, ‘I wish that no matter where I go, beautiful women will always need and want me!’

* * * * * * * P O O F * * * * * * * * *

He was turned into a tampon.

THE MORAL OF THE STORY:

If you’re an Arab doing business with a Jewish genie, there’s always going to be a string attached.
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January 16, 2015 5:46pm
Viking2

Today I was in a store that sells sunglasses, and only sunglasses. A young lady walked over to me and asked, “What brings you in today?”

I looked at her, and said, “I’m interested in buying a refrigerator.”

She didn’t quite know how to respond.

Am I getting to be that age?
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January 16, 2015 5:52pm
Kimbo

@ Fletch

Kimbo, so you don’t have a problem with Luther removing books of the Bible then (which we now call the Apocrypha), books which even Jesus referred to in the New Testament?

Luther removed nothing. The Apochrypha, despite its value as an extra-Scriptural insight into the life, times and belief-systems when the Scriptures were written, is not Scripture. The Church, contrary to Catholic claims, does not authorise Scripture. Scripture bears the self-authenticating stamp of its ultimate author, the Holy Spirit, and the Church simply recognises it.

I am unaware of ANY authentication of the Apochrypha in the New Testament by Jesus and the apostles. That is in marked contrast to the extensive use of the phrase “it is written…” whenever the canonical books of the Old Tsetament are quoted. I have no idea what you think Jesus was referring to (the seven brothers and their mother who were martyred for their faith). Perhaps if you can be more precise…

I still don’t see where your authority comes from. What if two people in your church have a disagreement about a point of scripture, and both believe they are being “led by the spirit”. Then who is right? More often than not, one will leave and go to another church that is in agreement with him. If it is a pastor who is in disagreement, he is likely to go start his own church

Actually, I’d consider schism the exception, rather than the rule. In the main we do exactly what Catholics do when they disagree on the vast array of subjects on which the Pope has not spoken ex cathedra. We pray, seek godly and wise advice within the corporate context of the church, search our motives, seek to balance the requirements of love and truth, and most of all seek to discern the voice of the Spirit speaking through the Scriptures…

Well, I hate to be argumentative, but I believe that if you receive the “sacrament” in an Anglican, Baptist, or Prysbyterian church, you are eating only bread. In the Catholic church we believe this to be the actual body and blood of Christ.

No, you are not being argumentative. You are being honest in a charitable way. And thoroughly consistent with your dogma of the sacraments, and the clergy who administer them.

And as I said earlier, Protestants consider the idea that the elements of the eucharist are transformed into the actual body and blood of Christ so that the sacrifice of the cross can be repeated again is a terrible blasphemy, and an error rooted in Aquinas’ infatuation with Aristotelianism, rather than a true understanding of the Scriptures. Along with the primacy of Scripture as authoritative, the doctrine of transubstantiation is the one that proved most irreconcileable for Catholics and Protestants whenever they met to discuss in the first few generations of the Reformation. Sadly, some 450 years later we too are unlikely to achieve harmony.

But thank you for pointing out the supposed anomaly of my system of doctrine and practice, at least as it appears through the lens of your Catholic doctrine and practice
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January 16, 2015 5:55pm
Fletch

Cannibals and vampires …
Such a strange thing to be proud of eating human flesh and drinking blood.

Those following Jesus thought so, too, when He said to eat his body and drink His blood – that his body was real food, and his blood real drink. And the word used in the original language for ‘eat’ is “munch’ or ‘gnaw’. So shocked were they that many left Him that day.

I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate manna in the desert, but they died. 50 But the bread that comes down from heaven is of such a kind that whoever eats it will not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If you eat this bread, you will live forever. The bread that I will give you is my flesh, which I give so that the world may live.”

52 This started an angry argument among them. “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” they asked.

53 Jesus said to them, “I am telling you the truth: if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you will not have life in yourselves. 54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them to life on the last day. 55 For my flesh is the real food; my blood is the real drink. 56 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood live in me, and I live in them. 57 The living Father sent me, and because of him I live also. In the same way whoever eats me will live because of me. 58 This, then, is the bread that came down from heaven; it is not like the bread that your ancestors ate, but then later died. Those who eat this bread will live forever.”

59 Jesus said this as he taught in the synagogue in Capernaum.

60 Many of his followers heard this and said, “This teaching is too hard. Who can listen to it?”

61 Without being told, Jesus knew that they were grumbling about this, so he said to them, “Does this make you want to give up? 62 Suppose, then, that you should see the Son of Man go back up to the place where he was before? 63 What gives life is God’s Spirit; human power is of no use at all. The words I have spoken to you bring God’s life-giving Spirit. 64 Yet some of you do not believe.” (Jesus knew from the very beginning who were the ones that would not believe and which one would betray him.) 65 And he added, “This is the very reason I told you that no people can come to me unless the Father makes it possible for them to do so.”

66 Because of this, many of Jesus’ followers turned back and would not go with him any more. 67 So he asked the twelve disciples, “And you—would you also like to leave?”

68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words that give eternal life. 69 And now we believe and know that you are the Holy One who has come from God.”
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January 16, 2015 5:56pm
UglyTruth

The history of human settlement began around 10,000BCE

Humans in their original sense are fairly recent, but they’re a vain bunch and so they make all sorts of assumptions about society.

http://www.pum.umontreal.ca/revues/surfaces/vol4/birus.html
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January 16, 2015 5:56pm
UglyTruth

And if I have understood you right (not an easy feat) that is an assumption that is almost certainly incorrect.

How’s that?

The primeval narrative of Genesis 1-11 is not chronological.

Because why? The rest of Genesis is chronological, so why should the beginning be different?

Your argument that it is one half of a conversion and therefore it is not chronological is an obvious non-sequitur.
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January 16, 2015 6:04pm
SPC

Kimbo, “but that is assuming the primeval narratives in Genesis chapters 4 and 10 are an “accurate” account, so you get something like Bishop Ussher’s chronology.”

No, the Genesis account there is simply filling a gap in time – overcoming a lack of knowledge of all the generations and remembering only those about whom stories were told.

“More likely they are highly stylised, aping existing pagan genealogies (where men lived for hundreds of thousands of years) so that readers would readily understand the surrounding material in Chapter 1 to 11 are deliberately refuting pagan beliefs. It is a form of satire, like an early Charlie Hebdo!”

In claiming that their human ancestor “Adam” (Hebrew for man) was the son of God – aping the claims of those on kingdom thrones to be descendants of gods who lived lives longer than other men. A bit like claiming the Hebrew word for an eternal is the name of God … .

But given it concludes with Sarah as a mother at age 90, Abraham living to age 175, Isaac to 180 and Jacob to 147 – I doubt that was the intent to satire their own cult. Not when it goes onto to claim a new Adam has an eternal life body form and those who eat of it can live forever. Or was this to bind Gentiles to their story so they would not satirise it as Charlie Hebdo has and might yet again?

Maybe they were just trying to simply reconcile the concept of Adam being a “son of God” and his descendants of their generation reading the Torah being much shorter lived.

The reconciliation is in using the term of son of God faith, rather than son of God. Calling God as father as a sign of faith in God.
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January 16, 2015 6:04pm
Nostradamus

Muslim girls in Malaysia threatened with arrest over K-pop boy band hug

A group of Muslim girls in Malaysia have been threatened with arrest after a video emerged showing them hugging members of a K-pop boy band.

The incident has prompted a public outcry in the Muslim majority country, with Islamic conservatives denouncing both the popular Korean K-pop genre and the girls.

Official Muslim-purity enforcers have given the girls one week to turn themselves in or face arrest, local media reported.

Yes, we can’t have Muslim girls enjoying Korean music now, can we?
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January 16, 2015 6:07pm
EAD

You would never read such truth in the NZ MSM about the economy:

http://kingworldnews.com/gerald-celente-shocking-swiss-move-beginning-much-larger-global-meltdown/

“Now let’s put this into perspective: Most people know that the global economy is in a slowdown. The reason prices are going down is because people don’t have money to buy things. That’s why retail sales are down not only in the United States but around the world. They are calling this ‘deflation.’ But do any of these puppets have the courage to call it what it really is? It’s a depression. These are depressionary conditions but no one in the mainstream media wants to call it that.

We have seen a collapse in oil prices because demand is way down. We are also seeing a collapse in commodity prices across the board. Copper prices just hit 5-year lows. Why? Well, 40 percent of the copper supply is absorbed by China, and China doesn’t have that 7.5 percent growth anymore — it’s more like 3.5 percent.

It’s finally beginning to dawn on people that there has been no recovery — it has all been a coverup. The quantitative easing money has flooded the globe and created completely phony markets. The tens of trillions of dollars that were injected into global markets did nothing of any substance to improve the general economy.

So the worst is yet to come and there is no way out. And I would suggest to people as they look around the world at the geopolitical problems that are going on and how so many countries are becoming police states — under the guise of terrorism — that they ask themselves: Are these countries really afraid of terrorism or are they afraid of their own populations that are losing everything and will take to the streets? Because that’s what we see coming. We see a global collapse. There’s no recovery — it’s been a coverup”

Time to get yourself some hard assets:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-15/if-it’s-not-hard-asset-it’s-no-asset
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January 16, 2015 6:12pm
Fletch

Protestants consider the idea that the elements are transformed into the actual body and blood of Christ so that the sacrifice of the cross can be repeated again is a terrible blasphemy,

OK, I’m getting lost on what to answer first now, but to address this – Catholic do not believe that Jesus sacrifice on the cross is being repeated again. We believe that only happened once, but that we are present at that same, one and only sacrifice. I know it is difficult to explain.

If you look at the book of Revelation, the sacrifice of the Lamb is still being offered at the alter in Heaven.
This is getting into deep theology though.
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January 16, 2015 6:12pm
Nostradamus

And – at last – we’ve found a false flag:

Three fishing boats snared poaching toothfish in the Southern Ocean were flying false flags, the Government says.

The poachers aboard the the Songhua, Kunlun and Yongding were claiming to be registered in Equatorial Guinea after being snared by the navy in the Southern Ocean.

However, after talks with his counterpart Agapito Mba Mokuy in Malabo, Foreign Minister Murray McCully said the rusty fishing boats were not flagged to the central African country.

“He assured me that we have Equatorial Guinea’s full co-operation in terms of investigating this matter and confirmed that the illegal vessels were not flagged to Equatorial Guinea,” he said.

I’ll use this as a benchmark when assessing “false flag” claims made by other Kiwiblog readers 🙂
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January 16, 2015 6:14pm
Kimbo

@ Fletch

The Bible does not interpret itself.

That is not what it claims of itself: –

II Timothy 3: 14-17
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work

Cannibals and vampires …
Such a strange thing to be proud of eating human flesh and drinking blood.

Those following Jesus thought so, too, when He said to eat his body and drink His blood – that his body was real food, and his blood real drink. And the word used in the original language for ‘eat’ is “munch’ or ‘gnaw’. So shocked were they that many left Him that day.

So just to clarify, when Jesus said he was “the way” (John 14:6) , does that mean he is literally a cobbled Roman road like the Appian Way?

Or if he is “the light of the world” (John 8:12) he is literally the star at the centre of what we call the solar system some 90,000,000 miles from earth?

See how this “Scripture interprets Scripture” thing works? Terms and genres which can be interpreted literally or figuratively (“he who eats my flesh…my flesh is bread…I am the bread of life”) are further clarified when we read similar claims and language in the wider context of the same book (John’s Gospel)…papal claims to the contrary notwithstanding
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January 16, 2015 6:15pm
Kimbo

@ Fletch

Catholic do not believe that Jesus sacrifice on the cross is being repeated again. We believe that only happened once, but that we are present at that same, one and only sacrifice. I know it is difficult to explain.

If you look at the book of Revelation, the sacrifice of the Lamb is still being offered at the alter in Heaven.

Yeah. I know it is not what you mean, but I and other Protestants are hearing “red is not the same as scarlet”.

This is getting into deep theology though.

Yes. It is. And theology was what was at the heart of the Reformation. Luther nails his theses to the door, goes home, and thinks, “this is just a standard dispute within the mother Catholic Church to which I belong”…and 3 and a half years later it emerges to him, and everyone else, “no, actually you’ve chucked a rock into a darkened room and heard a yell – so you have hit something you didn’t intend to”.
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January 16, 2015 6:21pm
SPC

Kimbo, he was linking the Passover lamb and the journey to build the old covenant nation to the future work of the apostles. And then connecting the Old Testament Godfaith word as a body of work to one transformed by his teachings. This now his body of work passed via the apostles to the wider world. The blood refers to the bloodline of David (see Psalm 2 as to how the King hoped to be seen as a son before God by faith) and the manner of the servant doing his fathers work. A way or spirit for his disciples to emulate.

Taking the metaphors literally, is almost “creationist”.
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January 16, 2015 6:24pm
UglyTruth

Cannibals and vampires …
Such a strange thing to be proud of eating human flesh and drinking blood.

I am the bread of life
John 6:35

Before Abraham was, I am.
John 8:58

I AM THAT I AM
Exodus 3:14
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January 16, 2015 6:26pm
Kimbo

Hey, gotta head out Fletch – thanks for that. And not me down-ticking you, btw 🙂
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January 16, 2015 6:28pm
Richard II

Nobody can side with him: http://news.yahoo.com/pope-charlie-hebdo-limits-free-expression-121639260.html

Pope Francis said Thursday there are limits to freedom of speech, especially when it insults or ridicules someone’s faith.

Francis spoke about the Paris terror attacks while en route to the Philippines, defending free speech as not only a fundamental human right but a duty to speak one’s mind for the sake of the common good.

But he said there were limits.

manolo

The Pope is right. With freedoms come responsibility.

Charlie Hebdo often crossed the line into irresponsibility – the word is even on their masthead. They did this by ridiculing someone’s faith even after trouble erupted previously. The French claim it’s just their humour, but Charlie Hebdo’s work was often mere shock-jock material, all in the name of selling magazines.

I hope Slater was listening…
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January 16, 2015 6:36pm

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