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December 3, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 3 December 2014

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General Debate

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dad4justice

“Speaking of that. When are you going to tell us all about the LAX incident D4J?”

After you post on this blog the ALLEGED EMAILS that you claim to have sent by me you disturbed pathological liar. Go away stalker.
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December 3, 2014 9:08pm
holysheet

The thing about sinning is that all the tykes can go to church confess their sins and all is forgiven. Everyone else does the same sinning and is on the hot slide to hell
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December 3, 2014 9:08pm
big bruv

Come on now D4J. Why not just try and control that temper of yours and tell us all that you know about the LAX incident?
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December 3, 2014 9:09pm
Redbaiter

“Yea but its all good reddy. griff will be okay on his tin boat.”

Ha ha, yeah, wonder if he’ll save his good friend Sheriff Shawn. The two narks can live happily ever after boring each other to sleep each night with never ending tales of their respective religions.

BTW, Griffins are usually wooden.
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December 3, 2014 9:11pm
Johnboy

Hell BB I wish Dad could tell us the real truth about the Richard and Ann affair at CHT! 🙂
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December 3, 2014 9:11pm
Redbaiter

The left have fucked science like they have fucked every one of our institutions Grief and the biggest danger to the world is not global warming/ cooling/ warming/cooling/warming but useful idiots like you.
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December 3, 2014 9:13pm
mikenmild

I’d settle for a few more stories about the good times with his close friend Richie McCaw, Johnboy.
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December 3, 2014 9:13pm
nasska

…..”it’s not about every little thing I do or say – it’s about where I place my trust, and what I aim for.”….

Still leaves plenty of scope for interpretation & a fair bit of wriggle room to boot Rufus.

Point is that it’s completely reliant on a self assessment & therefore Xtian A might apply different criteria than Xtian B would.
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December 3, 2014 9:13pm
dad4justice

bb – I have proved you to be a pathological liar. How can you hang around here, have you no self respect, everybody knows you have a serious mental problem and wouldn’t know the truth if it bit you on the arse. What else would one expect from a low down used car-salesman.What a creep.
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December 3, 2014 9:14pm
waikatogirl

Rufus, that is very judgemental. I don’t mean to be rude but you appear to be quite confrontational in your assertions…

I don’t need a mythical god to keep me on the straight path of living a good life, I have my own conscience! 🙂
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December 3, 2014 9:15pm
Redbaiter

Hey Dad, ask Big Bruv how many false identities he had when he got kicked off Panda Sports. He drifts in and out of here like a big arrogant bullshit artist demanding answers from others but just like his girl friend Penny won’t answer any himself.
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December 3, 2014 9:15pm
mikenmild

Would you answer some questions about your historical knowledge, Redbaiter?
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December 3, 2014 9:17pm
SGA

nasska at 9:13 pm

Still leaves plenty of scope for interpretation & a fair bit of wriggle room to boot Rufus.
Point is that it’s completely reliant on a self assessment & therefore Xtian A might apply different criteria than Xtian B would.

You sure, nasska? If that were the case, then christianity would have steadily splintered over time into dozens of different groupings with somewhat different teachings and emphases.
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December 3, 2014 9:17pm
Griff

Actually red shes composite construction
Ground up rocks cement high tensile steel bars and a dozen layers of chicken mesh.
built to NZ maritime survey.
looks more like this
http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/tq/278832485.jpg
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December 3, 2014 9:18pm
Johnboy

Fuck if I’d realised Penny was BB’s tart I’d never have demanded my barbed wire so forcefully! 🙂
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December 3, 2014 9:19pm
Redbaiter

“Would you answer some questions about your historical knowledge, Redbaiter?”

Milky, you never told me. Would you regard a university historian with Cherokee tribal connections as a “credible” source for the rebuttal of Sheriff Shawn’s Marxist myths?
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December 3, 2014 9:20pm
dad4justice

red – bb is a pathological liar who has stalked me since the lying creep first appeared on this blog. I know it had about 2 dozen identities on Panda Sports and God only knows how many the disturbed vindictive creep has on here.
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December 3, 2014 9:20pm
nasska

It’s a lot of boat to run single handed Griff.
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December 3, 2014 9:22pm
Redbaiter

“Ground up rocks cement high tensile steel bars and a dozen layers of chicken mesh.”

OK, shoulda known she’d be the cheapest version going.
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December 3, 2014 9:22pm
renderer

Penny does it again!!
Radio New Zealand Reports

“Ms Bright was appealing against the decision today and provided a large amount of last-minute documentation which the council’s lawyer asked for time to analyse.

A date for the resumption of the hearing would be decided on after Christmas.”
Christmas at Penny’s afterall
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December 3, 2014 9:22pm
holysheet

Don’t be jealous johnboy, You have all those lovely ewes to choose from. At least they would speak more sense, if they could, than the mad watchdog
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December 3, 2014 9:24pm
Johnboy

Specially if you always keep one of your hands on your cox nasska! 🙂
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December 3, 2014 9:25pm
nasska

The lonely life of the solo yachtsman sometimes calls for desperate measures JB. 🙂
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December 3, 2014 9:27pm
mikenmild

Yes, Redbaiter, I’d be prepared to assess that alongside other evidence and then draw my own conclusions.
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December 3, 2014 9:29pm
Johnboy

I’m studying to be a yachtsman nasska. I can get a sheepshank properly knotted in under 5 minutes! 🙂
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December 3, 2014 9:31pm
Redbaiter

You see the problem we have here Milky. No matter who I use as a source you will merely dismiss that source as not credible. Just because, as you said above, his views challenge orthodox Marxist bullshit.

You have already written off THE FALSIFICATION OF ABORIGINE HISTORY by Keith Windschuttle, when he is a respected academic, one time board member of the ABC, and gives immensely detailed references for all of his sources.

But he doesn’t agree with you and other Marxists so therefore he’s just not “credible”.

In fact Windschuttle’s demolition of the myths surrounding the so called mistreatment of Australian Aborigines is pretty much a pattern for exposing the same kind of falsehoods relating to American Indians and Maoris.
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December 3, 2014 9:35pm
nasska

Here you are JB…..invitation of the year. 🙂

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c4d9xazrnqn9f89/Sheep%2063.jpeg?dl=0
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December 3, 2014 9:35pm
Johnboy

I got a diploma for my capacity to absorb this stuff:

http://www.animatedknots.com/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com
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December 3, 2014 9:37pm
Tauhei Notts

Nasska at 7.28 p.m. Brilliant.
At my rural golf club we hold the Pharisees’ Cup on Friday of Easter weekend.
Your story will be sent out to contestants, but the pity is so few will comprehend the significance of it. Just as so few can comprehend the ultimate piss take of holding that competition on that particular each year.
On another subject; this new drink driving law has already shown its dire impact on the Club’s bar takings, and we are only three days into December. This could cause a serious adjustment to the budgets set by the Club.
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December 3, 2014 9:40pm
mikenmild

I’m confused now, Redbaiter. did you want to discuss Cherokee history or the alleged falsification of Australian history or something else altogether? I’m not a Marxist, BTW.
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December 3, 2014 9:50pm
Shawn Herles

@ Reid,

“True Christians aren’t judgmental.”

Now apply that to your judgments against Jews, Zionists and Israel.

Holding someone to account for their claims is not being judgmental.

Claiming that everyone who supports Israel is doing the work of the anti-Christ, certainly is.
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December 3, 2014 9:52pm
Shawn Herles

Redbaiter,

This is easy as I said. Explain why there are Cherokee in Oklahoma.

If you cannot answer that simple question with any credibility, then your argument fails.

Citing the aussie guy is not credible, because for a start he is not talking about NA history. Claiming that his approach is a “model” is not credible, because you cannot so easily, as you claim, simply jump from one country to another and think the same issues and questions apply.

So far, all you have managed to come up with is silly nonsense about Marxism, and one guy talking about Australia.

Your claims are falling apart at the seams.

By the way, Marxism actually has nothing to do with the issue, one way or another, and it is nowhere near as prevalent as you claim.
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December 3, 2014 9:56pm
Redbaiter

“I’m confused now, Redbaiter. … I’m not a Marxist, BTW.”

Are you sure? Maybe you don’t know yourself.

I’m just saying that Windschuttle is a pretty credible source but you won’t accept him. Just as you probably won’t accept any source I refer to regarding Sheriff Shawn’s Marxist myths.

It would seem credibility is not really the issue here so much as reinforcing your Marxist prejudices.
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December 3, 2014 9:57pm
Redbaiter

“Redbaiter. ….explain why..”

What you need to do is explain why you’re not “done with” me as you stated above.

Don’t you even have one skerrick of honour or shame?

A question you have already unconsciously answered a multitude of times.
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December 3, 2014 10:00pm
Shawn Herles

My understanding of Cherokee history comes from Cherokees themselves, not Marxists.
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December 3, 2014 10:01pm
Shawn Herles

I have vastly more honor than you, but that is just trying to change the subject again, something you do every time you are presented with a question you do not want to have to answer.

Can you answer the question, or not?
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December 3, 2014 10:03pm
Redbaiter

“My understanding of Cherokee history comes from Cherokees themselves, not Marxists.”

You’re an ignorant worthless Marxist buffoon. And like Ward Churchill and Elizabeth Warren, I strongly doubt you have any connections to the Cherokee tribe anyway.
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December 3, 2014 10:04pm
Redbaiter

“I have vastly more honor than you,”

A lie.

You have just gone back on an important statement without the slightest trace of shame.
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December 3, 2014 10:07pm
Rowan

Shawn
Give it a rest, your ongoing feud with Red is getting tiresome!
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December 3, 2014 10:09pm
Redbaiter

Only one thing worse than a troll Rowan, and that’s a troll stalker.
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December 3, 2014 10:10pm
Shawn Herles

So, no, you cannot answer the question.

You have simply failed, totally, to back up your claims. This is why you have no honor. You rant about other peoples, their cultures and histories, of which you have no real knowledge or understanding, then whine when someone from that people puts you right, and all you can come up with is the frankly stupid claim that everyone who disagrees with is a Marxist.

My knowledge of Cherokee history comes from visiting the Cherokee homeland in the Great Smoky Mountains. That is where my knowledge comes from, not Marxist books.

Your “knowledge” is just crap you pull out of your ass.
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December 3, 2014 10:11pm
mikenmild

I don’t find Windschuttle’s argument to be very persuasive, Redbaiter. I have not read widely only early Australian history. Never got much beyond Robert Hughes and a bit of Manning Clark. Windschuttle’s views are controversial, to say the least. Which of his works did you find most persuasive? I have some sympathy for ‘The Killing of History’, not being persuaded by postmodernist arguments myself.
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December 3, 2014 10:13pm
Shawn Herles

“Give it a rest, your ongoing feud with Red is getting tiresome!”

Then go to bed. This may not be important to you. It is to me. Red is doing the moral equivalent of claiming the Jews were well treated by the Nazis. A Jew would not stand for that. neither does a Cherokee stand for an ignoramus living on an island at the bottom of the world trying to claims things about the Cherokee.
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December 3, 2014 10:14pm
Rowan

Dad4Justice @ 9.20

I find it amusing that Bigot Blouse has to create multiple identities ie “Longknives” on here so it has ‘someone’ that will agree with its delusional opinions and hate rants. How lame is that!
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December 3, 2014 10:16pm
Redbaiter

I have a multitude of sources to rebut your simpleton Marxist crap. I have already explained that to Milky above. Like you, he ducks and dives trying to avoid the commitment that would close off the escape clause of “credibility” he has built in to his argument. What there is of it.

Milky- would you accept Thomas Brown, Assistant Professor of Sociology at Lamar University?

Would you allow me to cite the Cherokee Heritage Documentation Center?

How about Robert Weissberg, emeritus professor of political science, University of Illinois-Urbana and currently an adjunct instructor at New York University Department of Politics (graduate)?

Or eminent Cherokee sociologist Russell Thornton?

Any of those meet your criteria for “credibility”?

Thought not.
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December 3, 2014 10:20pm
Shawn Herles

Here is some last advice Red. Stick to subjects you actually have some knowledge of. When you speak without thinking on subjects you have no real knowledge of, you open yourself to mockery and ridicule, and worse, you behave with dishonor, because you are basically lying, even if not intentionally.

I have no idea what subjects you do have any knowledge of, but Native American history is certainly not one of them.
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December 3, 2014 10:21pm
mikenmild

Please cite all of those in as much detail as you need to rebut Shawn’s assertions that the Cherokee were forcibly dispossessed of the homeland and sent along the Trail of Tears to Oklahoma.
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December 3, 2014 10:24pm
Rowan

Shawn
Compared with many of the Mason clinic escapees and loons that crap all over GD, Redbaiter is a straight shooter and his comments are generally worth reading.
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December 3, 2014 10:26pm
Redbaiter

Milky- are they “credible?”

If not credible to you, then I would just be wasting my time.

Sheriff. Go away. It sticks in my craw to engage with a shameless loser and coward who can’t keep his word more than a few hours.
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December 3, 2014 10:28pm
Shawn Herles

“Would you allow me to cite the Cherokee Heritage Documentation Center?”

I will.

“About 200 years ago the Cherokee Indians were one tribe, or “Indian Nation” that lived in the southeast part of what is now the United States. During the 1830’s and 1840’s, the period covered by the Indian Removal Act, many Cherokees were moved west to a territory that is now the State of Oklahoma. A number remained in the southeast and gathered in North Carolina where they purchased land and continued to live. Others went into the Appalachian Mountains to escape being moved west and many of their descendants may still live there now.

The Cherokees were once a mighty and powerful nation. At the time when the Cherokees came first in contact with the white man (DeSoto in 1540, they claimed some 135,000 square miles of territory covering parts of eight present-day states: North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, Kentucky, Virginia and West Virginia). By the end of the American Revolutionary War, the Cherokees had lost about half of their land in the east. Between 1785 and 1835 the Cherokee lands had shrunk to a few million acres.”

And here is the CHDC’s information on the forced removal of Cherokee.

http://cherokeeregistry.com/removal.pdf

Anymore sources Red?
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December 3, 2014 10:29pm
Shawn Herles

“Compared with many of the Mason clinic escapees and loons that crap all over GD, Redbaiter is a straight shooter”

Not remotely.

“and his comments are generally worth reading.”

Almost never.
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December 3, 2014 10:31pm
SGA

Rowan at 10:26 pm

Compared with many of the Mason clinic escapees and loons that crap all over GD, Redbaiter is a straight shooter and his comments are generally worth reading.

What a scary thought.
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December 3, 2014 10:33pm
mikenmild

I don’t quite see how I can be expected to judge a source as credible, Redbaiter, when you have not provided a link or a specific citation. I’d be quite happy to look at the work of Thomas Brown from Lamar University. I assume his relevant scholarship is only a few minutes’ googling away.
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December 3, 2014 10:34pm
Shawn Herles

So, at least one of the sources Red was supposedly going to use, does not affirm his claim that Cherokee were treated fairly and humanely.

I doubt the others will either.
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December 3, 2014 10:35pm
Redbaiter

Yes Milky read the document Shawn has cited and see how vaguely even such a partisan group treats Shawn’s claims. In fact too, it has been proved at a later date that John G Burnett’s story is a complete fabrication, given he was recorded as somewhere else hundreds of miles away at the time he said he was with the Cherokee.
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December 3, 2014 10:37pm
Griff

http://cherokeeregistry.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=407&Itemid=617
Smallpox blankets

In 1738, a major disaster struck the Cherokee when their towns were swept by an epidemic of smallpox. The Cherokee Chief Oconostota, accused the British of deliberately planting smallpox germs in the trade goods, they had shipped to the Cherokees.

The desire of Whites to occupy Indian lands, and the rivalry between French and English for control of the fur trade conducted through Indians, led to the French and Indian War of 1763. In the summer of 1763, attacks by Native Americans against colonists on the western frontier seriously challenged British military control. Lord Jeffery Amherst (who commanded the British military forces stationed in North American during this time), discussed with his troops the advantages of hunting down Indians with dogs, versus infecting them with smallpox.

In a letter to Colonel Henry Bouquet dated July 7, 1763, Amherst writes “Could it not be contrived to send the Small Pox among those disaffected tribes of Indians?” In a later letter to Bouquet Amherst repeats the idea: “You will do well to try to inoculate the Indians by means of blankets, as well as to try every other method that can serve to extirpate this execrable race.”
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December 3, 2014 10:37pm
Redbaiter

“Compared with many of the Mason clinic escapees and loons that crap all over GD, Redbaiter is a straight shooter”

Not remotely.

“and his comments are generally worth reading.”

Almost never.

See what I mean by troll Rowan?

A definite case of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.
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December 3, 2014 10:39pm
Rufus

Waikatogirl 9:15 – Rufus, that is very judgemental. I don’t mean to be rude but you appear to be quite confrontational in your assertions…

so which part of telling me that my explanation to MM was a load of “sanctimonious crap” was not rude?

I don’t need a mythical god to keep me on the straight path of living a good life, I have my own conscience! 🙂

good for you. That statement sounds very sanctimonious.
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December 3, 2014 10:39pm
Redbaiter

Please go away Grief, you pea brained imbecile. That line of argument has been well discredited a thousand times. As usual, you’re fucking light years behind.

http://blockyourid.com/~gbpprorg/smallpox-blankets.pdf
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December 3, 2014 10:41pm
Shawn Herles

“I’d be quite happy to look at the work of Thomas Brown from Lamar University.”

I am already familiar with him. He does not actually deal with Cherokee history. His argument is about the small pox issue, but nothing else. And on that issue he is not exactly credible.
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December 3, 2014 10:41pm
Shawn Herles

“That line of argument has been well discredited a thousand times.”

Red, that argument comes from the very source you were going to use, the CHDC!!!!

So, you reject your own sources now??? 🙂
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December 3, 2014 10:43pm
Redbaiter

Idiot. You know well that was only a discussion of a theory and it was never implemented in practise.

You’re Kiwiblog’s own Ward Churchill.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/p/plag/5240451.0001.009?rgn=main;view=fulltext
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December 3, 2014 10:50pm
mikenmild

The smallpox on blankets things is quite controversial. At most, there is evidence that British officers wanted it to happen and it may even have been tried but with little apparent effect. Some people disagree about this.

Interestingly, Thomas Brown, the sociologist that Redbaiter cited as a credible source on Cherokee history appears to have been one of the main accusers of Ward Churchill. Now, we have already established that Churchill is a moonbat. The relevant question really is what historical perspective can Thomas Brown bring to the question of whether or not the Cherokee were forcibly deported from their homeland to Oklahoma. I’ve googled Brown and can’t find much evidence of him writing on the subject of the alleged deportation of the Cherokee. Perhaps you could indulge me with a more specific citation, Redbaiter?
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December 3, 2014 10:50pm
Redbaiter

In the Cherokee nation’s own files, now on deposit in the Gilcrease Institute in Tulsa, the number of Indians departing the East in 13 main parties is recorded at 12,623, the arrivals West at 12,783. Some stragglers joined on the way. American military counts are almost the same. The claim that 4000 died is only an error prone estimate that has never been verified.

The Trail of Tears myth is underpinned by the smallpox blankets myth, and the Cherokee Heritage Documentation Center says- “There is an often repeated story that the Cherokee were given blankets infected with smallpox from a hospital in Tennessee during the Cherokee removal (Trail of Tears). We have found no historical basis for this story.”

http://cherokeeregistry.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=407&Itemid=617
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December 3, 2014 10:52pm
Shawn Herles

“The relevant question really is what historical perspective can Thomas Brown bring to the question of whether or not the Cherokee were forcibly deported from their homeland to Oklahoma.”

None. He has never dealt with the issue. Red is just flailing about desperately.
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December 3, 2014 10:52pm
Rowan

Red
Definitely
OCD together with foot in mouth as well!
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December 3, 2014 10:52pm
Shawn Herles

“In the Cherokee nation’s own files, now on deposit in the Gilcrease Institute in Tulsa, the number of Indians departing the East in 13 main parties is recorded at 12,623,”

Yes, they were forcibly removed. Your own sources do not agree with your claims.
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December 3, 2014 10:54pm
Rufus

Nasska – 9:13“Still leaves plenty of scope for interpretation & a fair bit of wriggle room to boot Rufus.

Point is that it’s completely reliant on a self assessment & therefore Xtian A might apply different criteria than Xtian B would.”

Mate, it is what it is.

We have Jesus’ life, teachings and commands written down. We try out best, and we trust Him. We measure ourselves against Him. We know we will fall short, but we come back to him again and again and again, humbly seeking forgiveness, aiming higher, trusting in His promise to forgive us.

Now you might think that’s a load of sanctimonious crap, as was so eloquently put, in love, not at all rudely, by Waikatogirl, but that’s pretty much it in a nutshell.

Sure there’s lots of stuff that isn’t clear, and there’s been lots of disagreements and divisions and schisms in the last 2000 years.

It’s a human attempt to copy perfection – it’s bound to fail.

Christianity has been abused and used as an excuse to carry all sorts of horrible practices – which reinforces the point that people, even those claiming to be Christians, suck. It doesn’t invalidate Jesus or His command to repent and believe.

The whole point is that salvation doesn’t depend on what level of perfection we achieve – it’s a gift, freely given, in equal measure to those who genuinely seek it. If we genuinely seek to follow Him, we’ll do our best to act like He wanted us to.

Again, you think it’s all horseshit and that all Xtians are hypocrites – I get that. You might see it one day, you might not.
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December 3, 2014 10:55pm
Shawn Herles

Nicely said Rufus.
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December 3, 2014 10:57pm
mikenmild

That’s fair enough Rufus. You have your beliefs. Thye are quite widely shared. My main beef was with Reid pretending that he was able to judge whether another Kiwiblogger who professes to be a Christian was in fact a true Christian, and then claiming that it was a matter of ‘discernment’ rather than ‘judgement’.
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December 3, 2014 11:00pm
Shawn Herles

“The Trail of Tears myth is underpinned by the smallpox blankets myth”

No, it’s not at all, and you have just admitted the forced removal happened.

“and the Cherokee Heritage Documentation Center says- “There is an often repeated story that the Cherokee were given blankets infected with smallpox from a hospital in Tennessee during the Cherokee removal (Trail of Tears). We have found no historical basis for this story.”

Yes, but that deals only with the small pox issue. It does not refute the Trail of Tears at all, as the source you cite clearly shows, and it certainly does not come anywhere near close to your claim they were treated fairly and humanely.

Face it Red, you have failed to make your case. Your own sources do not agree with your claims.
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December 3, 2014 11:00pm
Redbaiter

Robert Weissberg is emeritus professor of political science, University of Illinois-Urbana and currently an adjunct instructor at New York University Department of Politics (graduate).

Here he explains the simple Marxist propaganda campaign behind the mistreated Indians myth.
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December 3, 2014 11:02pm
Shawn Herles

” and then claiming that it was a matter of ‘discernment’ rather than ‘judgement’.”

Given that Reid is a Henry Makow fan, and apparently Red is as well, I’m not inclined to trust his discernment process.
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December 3, 2014 11:04pm
Redbaiter

“they were forcibly removed.”

They signed a treaty that brought them something like $20 million in reparation and allowed them millions of acres of land at the new settlement. The deaths on the trail were normal attrition in the historical context, and not due to mistreatment or confinement. The claims you repeat only surfaced in the modern era and are a political device. You’re full of Critical Theory driven Marxist crap.
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December 3, 2014 11:06pm
Rufus

Mike, I thought even you had agreed with Reid that he had questioned whether or not the other kiwiblogger was acting like a Christian.

In which case the NTS fallacy doesn’t apply since there are actual behaviours that mark a Christian. If you’re showing the opposite, then you can rightly be said to be not acting like a Christian.

Whether Reid was right is another matter. Whether it’s helpful to talk like that on this forum is yet another.
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December 3, 2014 11:07pm
Rufus

Mike, why do you even care? You’re not a Christian, and Shawn can speak for himself 🙂
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December 3, 2014 11:08pm
Shawn Herles

“Robert Weissberg”

No, he really doesn’t. Read the article, and he is only dealing with the small pox issue, not the general treatment of Native Americans.

Also, Robert Weissberg is a regular speaker at American Renaissance forums, a well known white supremacist organization.

http://academeblog.org/2014/09/04/the-racist-professor-at-the-university-of-illinois/
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December 3, 2014 11:10pm
Shawn Herles

“They signed a treaty that brought them something like $20 million in reparation and allowed them millions of acres of land at the new settlement.”

They signed a “treaty” at the point of a gun. They had no choice.

If I put a gun to your head, force you to sign a document that relieves you of your home, land and property rights, and pay for a plane ticket for you to Somalia, would you be happy?

Is that justice?
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December 3, 2014 11:13pm
Redbaiter

“They signed a “treaty” at the point of a gun.”

Garbage. In fact they signed the treaty without any coercion and were eager to achieve its ends.

You smear colonials as Nazis above and compare the sad deaths of Indians from uncontrollable disease to the deliberate genocide of the Jewish people as attempted by Adolf Hitler. No matter who might be any kind of white supremacist they have nothing on you for utter evil. You are nothing but cowardly scum, you prove this on numerous occasions every day and you have no shame for what you are. A psychopathic troll.
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December 3, 2014 11:22pm
Shawn Herles

So, for all Red’s bluster, this was the result. His own sources did not agree with his claims about fair and humane treatment. Another source was an Australian who does not deal with Native American issues, another was controversial to say the least, and only deals with the small pox issue anyway, and the final source was a White Supremacist.

Not credible.

Yup, ya lost another one there Redbaiter! 🙂
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December 3, 2014 11:23pm
Redbaiter

And as if further proof of his derangement was necessary, once again this fucked in the head Marxist buffoon apparently painfully unaware of his own foolish self deceit, proclaims himself a winner once again. Just a sad silly little man with the mind of a juvenile and still to develop to adulthood. At fifty, I suggest that’s as good a sign as you could expect that it never will.
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December 3, 2014 11:26pm
Shawn Herles

Red, you lost. You could not prove you case. Your own sources either did not agree with you, or were not credible, and you cited a White Supremacist.

That last one proves my view that your ideology is not Conservatism, but a mix of libertarian whackery and white supremacy. It’s the kind of ideology you find amongst militia nutters in Idaho.

No wonder you hate John Key. The fact is that you are so far out on the extreme far Right fringe that there is nothing National, or any mainstream Conservative party, could ever do to satisfy you.

And that is why you are useless to the Right in NZ. The NZ Right does not need white supremacist whackjobs.
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December 3, 2014 11:32pm
Redbaiter

Readers should note that Sheriff Shawn’s ally here has been the committed leftist Milky, who keenly seeks to maintain whatever articles of critical theory he can. Whereas Sheriff’s odious beliefs have been well displayed in the quotes above, I don’t think even as an extreme leftist Milky can concur with such allegations as the colonists were comparable to Nazis who attempted to exterminate the Jews, and that anyone who opposed such a view was the equal of a holocaust denier.

Sheriff Shawn is a madman whose degree of derangement suggest something so seriously wrong in his head he may even be a danger to the public.

The savages were those people like you who stole our land through murder, and then forced marched most of my tribe hundreds of miles to Oklahoma, a march that left thousands dead, including women and children.

We did not invade England and wipe out millions through disease, concentration camps, and mass deportations.

Millions dies from white diseases, were forced off their land into concentration camps, and given disease infested blankets in an early form of germ warfare.

And that is just the tip of the iceberg. By any reasonable standards, that was not just harsh, it was evil and deliberate mass murder.

My people had vastly more genuine individual liberty before the English came along, trashed our property rights, and forced thousands to march all the way to Oklahoma to live in concentration camps.
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December 3, 2014 11:49pm
Redbaiter

With the above derangement now supplemented by this absurdity-

Red is doing the moral equivalent of claiming the Jews were well treated by the Nazis. A Jew would not stand for that.
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December 3, 2014 11:55pm
Redbaiter

And seeing my mad Marxist stalker has apparently finally retired, after thousands of words that make his promise to be done with me a complete and shameless lie, I post here the article by renowned historical researcher William R. Higginbotham, who first published this amazingly factual critique of the “Trail of tears myth in February 1988. This version is taken from the pages of the Oklahoman newspaper.

The problem with some of our accounts of history is that they have been manipulated to fit conclusions not borne out by facts. Nothing could be more intellectually dishonest. This is about a vivid case in point.

Congress recently passed a bill, later approved by President Reagan, to memorialize as a National Historic Trail what both professional and amateur historians call the Cherokee Indian Trail of Tears. The trail is the route by which the Cherokees moved west from their Georgia-Tennessee-Carolinas homeland into what is now Oklahoma.

The act caused a spate of articles about how the Cherokees lost 4,000 or more dead on a terrible trek, described as a “forced” march, presumably indicating they were prodded by bullet and bayonet as they moved during the hard winter of 1837-38.

The oddities are: 1) Voluminous records, including those of the Cherokee nation itself, show no loss approaching 4,000 (an actual figure of about 840 deaths was bad enough); 2) The word “forced” insults the Cherokees because they conducted their own march, paid for by Washington; 3) The phrase “Trail of Tears” was never used by a Cherokee in the 1830s, but came into existence under other circumstances some 70 years later.

How could such distortions have become embedded in accounts of a publicly debated episode with loud political overtones? Approaching that question requires some background.

Cherokee removal was part of the enforcement of U.S. law and policy.

Years before, President Thomas Jefferson had advocated removing Indians out of reach of rapidly oncoming white settlement. In 1802, the United States had guaranteed Georgia it would wipe out Indian title to lands in that state.

Congress finally enacted, effective in 1830, a law decreeing the transfer of all eastern Indians to open lands west of the Mississippi River. Some Indians had already gone there.

Those in favor of the policy, led by Presidents Andrew Jackson and Martin Van Buren, held that this was the only way to prevent white settlers from exterminating the Indians. Those against, mainly Whig Party opponents of Jacksonian democracy and eastern Protestant religionists, said it was simply a case of land-hungry whites stealing Indian lands.

With much political help but no success, the Cherokees, one of the major Indian tribes, delayed their own removal until the United States sent the military to round up their members from their hill-country homes in preparation to going west.

The Cherokees were a mixed lot. Their chief, John Ross, was only one-eighth Indian. A 1835 census showed 23 percent of the tribe had white blood. The Cherokee elite kept black slaves, as did leaders of other advanced southern Indian tribes. The Cherokees had adopted their own constitution, a move their opponents said violated the U.S. Constitution.

Ross gave up the fight after some 5,000 Cherokees had gone ahead, many at their own request, some with military escort, and made a deal with Gen. Winfield Scott. Under the agreement, the remaining Cherokees would move themselves, under their own leadership, hiring their own help, using money advanced by the United States.

The Cherokees employed doctors for each group. One was Elizur Butler, a resident medical missionary who worked for the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions (ABCFM), a Harvard-based Protestant group.

Back from his own effort, and before the last parties had even reached western Indian territory, Butler reported to the ABCFM the 4,000 deaths figure, which he said was “not extravagant.” His letter is on file at Harvard.

An ABCFM history published in 1840 picked up Butler’s figure, which Butler himself stated was based on hearsay and guesswork. From there the figure started on its way to historic gospel.

Cherokee removal was investigated by Congress to an extent that can be believed only by reading the Congressional Record. Some reports run to hundreds of pages. The written military record exists in detail in U.S. archives. Nothing like an extravagant death toll among the Cherokees exists. Butler is the sole source for such a conclusion. No historian mentions that.

In the Cherokee nation’s own files, now on deposit in the Gilcrease Institute in Tulsa, the number of Indians departing the East in 13 main parties is recorded at 12,623, the arrivals West at 12,783. Some stragglers joined on the way. American military counts are almost the same. The Cherokees were being paid per Indian moved.

T. Hartley Crawford, head of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, reported on Aug. 6, 1840, in a private communication to the secretary of war that the death toll among the 13 groups was 447. He also said that Lewis Ross, John Ross’ brother, who was supplier to the movement, made a large profit. Historians have never used the Crawford document or, for that matter, the Cherokee documents.

Other deaths, raising the total to more than 800, took place in parties outside the main groups and were carefully reported to the U.S. government. John Ross never made unusual claims for deaths, although he returned to Washington repeatedly after 1838 seeking more money.

The phrase “Trail of Tears” entered the story much later. In 1958, Gaston Litton, former archivist at the University of Oklahoma, attributed it to a remark by a Choctaw Indian to a Baptist preacher about an Indian Territory road. It reached print for the first time in 1908, 70 years after the exodus, when all the participants were dead.

From then on it spread like an advertising slogan, as if it came from the mouths of the 1830-40 Cherokee Indians who had never heard or used it.

Indian outrage at removal is understandable. So, too, is opposition to the policy on moral or political grounds or out of sympathy for the Indians. The Cherokees were well-paid. Actual removal costs ran $2.9 million and by 1849 had gone up another $3 million. In today’s money that would be billions.

The Cherokee removal episode seems to need some historic revision. I, who have spent more than 20 years researching it, doubt anyone will bother. It is too good a story as it stands and too well-fixed to disturb. That makes it all the more dishonest.
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December 4, 2014 12:33am
Redbaiter

In a book written not long after the treaty that covered the movement of the Cherokee tribe to their new lands the agreement was described thus-

The direct consideration was five millions of dollars, which, added to stipulations to pay for the improvements on the ceded land -to defray the expenses of removal to their new homes beyond the Mississippi -to subsist them for one year after their arrival- to commute school funds and annuities -to allow pre-emptions and pay for reserves-with some liberal grants of money from Congress, for the sake of quieting complaints–and some large departmental allowances amounted, in the whole, to more than twelve million dollars! Being almost as much for their single extinction of Indian title in the corner of two states as the whole province of Louisiana cost.! And this in addition to seven millions of acres granted for their new home and making a larger and better home than the one they had left. Considered as a moneyed transaction, the advantage was altogether, and out or all proportion, on the side of the Indians ; but relief to the States, and quiet to the lndians, and the completion of a wise and humane policy, were overruling considerations, which sanctioned the enormity of the amount paid.

From “Thirty Years’ View Or a History of the Working of the American Government for Thirty Years: From 1820 to 1850, Volume 1 written by Thomas Hart Benton in 1854.
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December 4, 2014 1:15am
Gulag1917

Listen to Alan Jones talking with Tony Abbot on ‘Free’ Trade with China! http://www.2gb.com/audioplayer/74686#.VGp4KCh9n0c
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December 4, 2014 2:18am
Viking2

http://screencast.com/t/m4z5L7m5M3kz
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December 4, 2014 6:39am
waitakereman

Sir Cullens sidekick back on WO…might start reading the feedback again!
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December 4, 2014 6:46am
deadrightkev

“The whole thing is starting to have the whiff of compulsion about it.”

It had that in spades from day one. Once the pollies got on a roll there was no stopping the steam roller.
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December 4, 2014 5:55pm
deadrightkev

“Red’s blog is a dismal failure with perhaps ten or twenty readers at most.”

That’s your opinion. I happen to agree with almost all of RB comments. He is also consistent.

I also used to enjoy Cactus Kates blogs too when she was at her analytical best.
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December 5, 2014 12:14pm
Shawn Herles

“That’s your opinion.”

Not really. Others have checked his traffic to confirm it.

“I happen to agree with almost all of RB comments.”

That’s very sad. I will remember to pray for you.
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December 5, 2014 12:18pm
Shawn Herles

I Geddit! I Geddit! Oops, I Don’t Geddit…Science and Atheism.

http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2014/12/i-geddit-i-geddit-oops-i-dont-geddit-science.html
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December 5, 2014 12:32pm

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