General Debate 28 December 2014

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Shawn Herles

People were saying that when I first went to university.

It’s been fucked for that long at least then.

It’s a variation on “the young people today”, etc, etc.

Bullshit mike. Auckland Uni was hardly making a statement about youth in general. They would not do so. They made their statement because they had a real problem.

As I said, you ignore evidence that does not fit your dogma, and that is a classic example. You’re the Labour version of a fundamentalist, which is why your sneering at religious people is such rank hypocrisy. Trying to spin what Auckland Uni said as some kind of off hand remark about youth in general is dishonest. You claim Google is our friend? Google what they actually said and why. Otherwise your dismissal is on the same level as young earth creationists.
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December 28, 2014 2:12pm
mikenmild

Cite the reference then and compare it to the PISA data which ranks the literacy of young New Zealanders quite highly. I know you won’t because you once heard or read something that fits with your world view. You are doing exactly what you accuse me of doing. There’s a word for that, I think.
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December 28, 2014 2:15pm
nasska

Education, like everything, has evolved Mike. Much is for the good such as as students being taught to think rather than learn by rote but there’s a price that has been paid, namely basic maths, spelling & grammar.

As usual the pendulum, rather than sticking in the middle ground, has swung too far in one direction & we now have people entering varsity with well developed minds but an inability to commit their thoughts to the written form.

Text jargon is no substitute for true literacy.
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December 28, 2014 2:22pm
mikenmild

I should think, nasska, that what has happened is that we are now sending a few too many people to university than hitherto. Successive governments have been proud of their achievements in expanding tertiary education and some of the volume growth might have been at the expense of quality. That’s not Shawn’s argument, of course, to the extent that anyone could discern an actual argument from his rubbish.
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December 28, 2014 2:27pm
nasska

….”we are now sending a few too many people to university “….

Right on! We have a glut of experts in political science, Maori studies & feminism who are certain that they deserve a place at the trough after studying for their worthless qualifications. Conversely we have to attract engineers & scientists from third world countries to make up the shortages in those fields.

Don’t get me started on the glut of creative arts graduates vs the lack of skilled plumbers & pump experts.

Hobby type degrees broadening knowledge in Art or Godbothering are better left to mature students who have demonstrated enough nous to earn a living in the real world……stand up Shawn! 🙂
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December 28, 2014 2:37pm
mikenmild

I won’t tell you what my degree is in nasska, but I sometimes wish I was a plumber. Someone once told me that more millionaires in New Zealand were qualified plumbers than any other occupation. I don’t really recall trades or business being promoted as options much when I was at school.
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December 28, 2014 2:47pm
Gulag1917

Argentina dreaming again
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/549006/Falkland-Islands-defence-review-after-military-deal-between-Russia-and-Argentina
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December 28, 2014 2:59pm
Shawn Herles

@ Mike

Cite the reference then and compare it to the PISA data which ranks the literacy of young New Zealanders quite highly.

Compared to what? All the PISA data does is compare nations, rather than individual schools. And that means it effectively is only comparing state run education systems. State education in much of the West is a rotting corpse. All PISA does is claim that NZ’s does not smell as bad as other. But it’s still a rotting corpse.

I have seen this first hand. One of my cousins sons had problems in a state school, and they labeled him as a problem child who may have learning difficulties. In short, they took the lazy option.

My cousin enrolled him in a well known private school, Cathedral Grammar, and within a month he was fine. His behavior improved dramatically, as did his educational results.

One school, run by the state, threw him under the bus because their education system and culture were an exercise in mediocrity and laziness.

The other, a private school, with just a little time and attention, as well as some old fashioned values like self-discipline, turned him around in less than five weeks.

I have come across similar experiences from other parents, many times.

So when Labour Party fundamentalists try to claim we have a world class education system, waving around PISA results like a fetish, I dismiss them as deluded and brainwashed cultists.

we are now sending a few too many people to university

That I agree with. We have turned having a degree into some kind of magic icon. The old trade schools were a good idea, and we still have those to a degree, but the govt would be better off putting money into them rather than universities.
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December 28, 2014 3:07pm
Gulag1917

mikenmild
You are correct. In the US three arts degrees equal one science degree in earning power.
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December 28, 2014 3:08pm
SGA

nasska at 2:37 pm

We have a glut of experts in political science, Maori studies & feminism who are certain that they deserve a place at the trough after studying for their worthless qualifications. Conversely we have to attract engineers & scientists from third world countries to make up the shortages in those fields.

Because there are empty places in our Uni engineering schools? Not enough NZers want to take it? Or are they disappearing overseas? (I don’t know, that’s why I’m asking).
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December 28, 2014 3:12pm
Maggy Wassilieff

@ MIkenmild
Here is a breakdown of NZs rating on PISA tests since 2000.

http://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/pisa-results-confirm-education-challenge

I don’t think you can hold to your view that NZ students are holding their own.

I was once a marker for the PISA science test sat by NZ students. Pretty disturbing stuff from some students.
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December 28, 2014 3:16pm
Shawn Herles

You are doing exactly what you accuse me of doing.

Come on mike, it’s just a bit of friendly banter. You do like to stick it to religious folks, so I’m just giving a little back. I don’t think you’re a brainwashed cultist, just loyal to your political brand.

Though for the life of me I can’t understand loyalty to Labour. 😉
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December 28, 2014 3:16pm
Gulag1917

SGA
maybe the answers are, lack of work ethic, dumbed down education and lack of inspirational science and maths teachers. Too much politics in education.
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December 28, 2014 3:17pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Here’s another summary of some key findings from NZs 2012 PISA test

http://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/publications/series/2543/pisa-2012/pisa-2012-new-zealand-summary-report

Yes, certain sections in the community laud the fact that the country produces some good readers….. but for over 50 years we have known that we have one of the longest tails of readers with below average levels of reading.
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December 28, 2014 3:20pm
freemark

You really are batshit crazy aren’t you Penny.
You don’t see the utter hypocrisy in your ongoing screeching baseless allegations of corruption, whinging about apparent fraud, corporate trough in etc. Look at yourself woman. A complete bludger, leeching off tax & ratepayers, accepting secret funding to push political barrows..and you have the cheek to call others cowards etc.
Just a typical lefty..
Who is funding you Penny?
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December 28, 2014 3:20pm
SGA

Gulag1917 at 3:17 pm

SGA
maybe the answers are, lack of work ethic, dumbed down education and lack of inspirational science and maths teachers. Too much politics in education.

From that I take it that the engineering schools aren’t able to fill all their places – that’s disturbing if true.
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December 28, 2014 3:21pm
nasska

….”Because there are empty places in our Uni engineering schools? Not enough NZers want to take it? Or our they disappearing overseas?”….

I rather think that our brightest are taking the path of least resistance. Any study in the hard sciences takes a lot more work than some rubbishy study in sociology or creative art. That said the end rewards as instanced by Gulag 1917 @ 3.08 are there for all to see.

But yes, we definitely bleed our top performers to overseas careers. We as a nation are too small to keep the best & we have an arse about face system of rewarding those who attain the skills we need vs those who bludge at the trough.
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December 28, 2014 3:22pm
Gulag1917

SGA
Should have qualified that statement by adding; lack of work ethic, dumbed down education and lack of inspirational science and maths teacher at primary, intermediate and high school.
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December 28, 2014 3:23pm
mikenmild

‘lack of inspirational science and maths teacher at primary, intermediate and high school’
We need to boost the incomes and professional standing of great teachers. Teacher should be as valued as the other classic professions like medicine and law.
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December 28, 2014 3:31pm
nasska

Median annual earnings of young domestic bachelors degree graduates five years after study

Health: $62,647

Engineering and related technologies: $58,287

Information technology: $56,958

Management and commerce: $53,791

Architecture and building: $50,597

Natural and physical sciences: $50,897

Education: $49,804

Agriculture, environmental and related studies: $49,157

Society and culture: $48,974

Creative arts: $42,575

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/8205505/Degrees-ranked-by-earning-potential

Point is that any country set up to pay an engineer only $15K/pa more than some bludger barely qualified to pass on the finer points of poi dancing & basket weaving has much to do to catch up with the real world.
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December 28, 2014 3:33pm
Gulag1917

Had a discussion with a teacher who suggested that NCEA [the biggest disaster since Dunkirk] was intended to create a net [or something like that] to bring in students to maths and science but had not succeeded.
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December 28, 2014 3:33pm
SGA

Some of this is a little at odds with what I know of some of my children’s friend who have tried to get into medicine – far more prospective students than places, and entry standards are extremely tough. I’m genuinely surprised this isn’t also the case for engineering.
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December 28, 2014 3:37pm
nasska

SGA

Some of restrictions on places for medicine vs engineering may be the costs of setting up the courses. That is the actual cost to the university. eg ex Otago tuition fees for various categories:

….”Computer Science, Design, Geography, Information Science, Music, Science $6,460.00″…..

….”Medicine $14,360.00″…..

Ref: http://www.otago.ac.nz/study/fees/
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December 28, 2014 3:46pm
Gulag1917

Lot of overseas students applying for medicine places and getting them most probably because of higher grades. Medecine has a higher status and income which accounts for the fierce competition.
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December 28, 2014 3:53pm
SGA

@nasska
Sure perhaps – but for medicine, at least, (and I’d guess for engineering too – sorry gulag), it’s not lack of fresh bodies from high school.
I find it hard to compare high school students now and back in my day. Not that many of my 3rd form intake actually stayed for seventh form. Perhaps the “average” 7th former back then was more academically competent than now, but that may have been self-selection as much as anything.
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December 28, 2014 3:54pm
Maggy Wassilieff

The Brits are realising that their maths teaching is way behind that of mainland Chinese.
In China primary teachers qualified in maths deliver some (or all) of the primary curriculum.
Brits are bringing Chinese teachers into their schools to demonstrate some of their approaches. (probably same approaches that I encountered in the 1960s)
http://www.bbc.com/news/education-30149801
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2836240/Minister-tells-schools-copy-China-ditch-trendy-teaching-chalk-talk-Teachers-speaking-class-effective-independent-learning.html

There would be very few primary school teachers in NZ with papers (let alone a degree) in Maths.
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December 28, 2014 3:55pm
nasska

SGA

You may have to look beyond education for the answer. When I was expelled from boarding school early in my sixth form year (1965) only the brightest of the very bright stayed on past the 6th form & all were destined for the professions. Nowadays colleges are, at least in part, holding pens for those with few prospects but not quite ready for the dole.

Part of this lies in the lack of unskilled or semi skilled work to mop up the no hopers & not so bright. The industrial areas of South Auckland & the Hutt Valley no longer produce shoddy over priced goods for the domestic market but we’re paying the price in other ways. Namely, people who will never work for a living.

We, along with most of the developed world, have seen the old order stood on its head in our lifetimes.
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December 28, 2014 4:13pm
mikenmild

Yes, we should pay teachers more if they have science and maths qualifications.
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December 28, 2014 4:13pm
SGA

nasska at 4:13 pm

Part of this lies in the lack of unskilled or semi skilled work to mop up the no hopers & not so bright.

Not only that, Nasska. From memory, competent but uninspired or uninspiring students found apprenticeships at the end of 5th form or sometime during 6th form. My brother wanted to leave shortly after starting 6th form, my parents said “only if you have an apprenticeship to go to” – that wasn’t an unusual condition. (Add – so he found one, they weren’t that thin on the ground)
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December 28, 2014 4:20pm
nasska

Maggy Wassilieff

I seem to remember that you have practical teaching experience. Do you think tertiary qualifications in maths or science is really necessary at primary level?

From what I’ve seen, by watching the progress of my kids & grandchildren, is that the ability to inspire & impart knowledge is more important say up to year eight & maybe beyond. Secondary level is different but then only with those pupils with natural talent.
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December 28, 2014 4:24pm
mikenmild

Maybe so nasska, but I’m pretty sure all teachers need to have a degree in something, so a bit more of a leaning towards the harder sciences would help even at the lower levels.
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December 28, 2014 4:30pm
nasska

Agreed SGA. The Post Office & Railways did most of the trades training for the private sector.

That said, even the trades have changed beyond recognition. The ability to drive in a straight nail or recondition a gearbox is about as relevant as skills in shoeing draught horses in today’s work places.

Few will get offered a useful apprenticeship without skills in maths & science.
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December 28, 2014 4:31pm
mikenmild

Maths and English are the key, nasska. If you do okay at those through to Level 3 you can pretty much learn anything else.
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December 28, 2014 4:40pm
iMP

ON NO. Second airliner missing. Air Asia, two hours late in to Singapore. No contact.

https://conzervative.wordpress.com/2014/12/28/oh-no-airliner-missing-2812/
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December 28, 2014 4:42pm
MT_Tinman

nasska (12,139 comments) says:
December 28th, 2014 at 2:22 pm

Education, like everything, has evolved Mike. Much is for the good such as as students being taught to think rather than learn by rote but there’s a price that has been paid, namely basic maths, spelling & grammar.

I disagree.

Pupils (students study to learn, pupils learn to study) are being taught they may not think, only towing the party line is acceptable in current education facilities.

I also note that apprentices are now required to have industry experience before employers are prepared to commit time and money to them – a far better idea than the old idea of raping highschools.
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December 28, 2014 4:44pm
MT_Tinman

nasska (12,140 comments) says:
December 28th, 2014 at 4:31 pm

Agreed SGA. The Post Office & Railways did most of the trades training for the private sector.

“Most” is pushing it without mentioning the MoW.
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December 28, 2014 4:46pm
nasska

They are the “tools” or building blocks if you like Mike. No one can succeed without them yet IMHO they are not emphasised sufficiently within our education system.

It has always appeared as ridiculous to me that a failing student can be promoted to the next class/level when they would be far better served by repeating that year’s work & getting the basics straight.
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December 28, 2014 4:48pm
SGA

nasska at 4:31 pm

That said, even the trades have changed beyond recognition. The ability to drive in a straight nail or recondition a gearbox is about as relevant as skills in shoeing draught horses in today’s work places.
Few will get offered a useful apprenticeship without skills in maths & science.

Well – a nail gun does it for you 🙂
The skills in maths and science is a funny one. For most people most of the time, you don’t need to be able to understand how the technology works, it’s more important that you know how to use it effectively.
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December 28, 2014 4:52pm
nasska

….”“Most” is pushing it without mentioning the MoW.”…..

True. Not only tradesmen but most of the brilliant engineers who developed our infrastructure came through the same system & in the true egalitarian system of the time they weren’t paid a great deal more than the dozer driver.
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December 28, 2014 4:53pm
mikenmild

I think it’s a bit more flexible than that, nasska, but a teacher would be able to tell you more.
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December 28, 2014 4:53pm
SGA

mikenmild at 4:40 pm

Maths and English are the key, nasska. If you do okay at those through to Level 3 you can pretty much learn anything else.

My kids were/are encouraged to stick with sciences as long as they could – keeps more doors open if they want to do the university route.
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December 28, 2014 4:55pm
Steve (North Shore)

Mike @ 4.13

Yes, we should pay teachers more if they have science and maths qualifications.

Let me paraphrase that for you.
We should pay teachers more if they can teach science and math. I send notes back to my grandkids teachers on a regular basis pointing out teacher mistakes
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December 28, 2014 4:56pm
Maggy Wassilieff

@ nasska…4.24pm…
It all depends….I think it would be good if each primary school had someone who was competent in maths and science on the teaching staff. Now this doesn’t mean that they need to have a full degree in maths/science papers…. but at least enough knowledge to teach the very brightest in the class (some 11-12 yr old will be performing at the level of a 15-16 yr old, especially if they are recent East Asian immigrants), and enough knowledge to know when a child has failed to grasp a key mathematical concept.

I taught 3rd & 4th form (yr 9 -10) pupils who did not know their time tables, could not divide, could not convert simple fractions into percentages. I taught students who had never had regular science lessons in their primary schooling. I taught students who had never been taught whole sections of the science curriculum (i.e. no earth science/ astronomy/chemistry/physics).

I agree that at the end of the day, the best thing a pupil can have is a teacher who inspires them and cares for them. Qualifications don’t count for much if a pupil really dislikes a teacher.
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December 28, 2014 4:59pm
mikenmild

You are right, Steve. Qualifications in anything are only a proxy for actual ability.
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December 28, 2014 5:01pm
Alan Wilkinson

This looks bad: http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/64507189/air-asia-flight-from-indonesia-to-singapore-vanishes
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December 28, 2014 5:01pm
Steve (North Shore)

You earned that uptick mike
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December 28, 2014 5:03pm
EAD

Air Asia flight missing:

http://rt.com/news/218147-air-asia-flight-missing/
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December 28, 2014 5:07pm
Gulag1917

Atlantic to the Urals, Russia an obstacle.
Britain’s EU retreat means German hegemony warns Prodi
The EU is either a treaty club of democracies and equals, or it is nothing
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11250994/Britains-EU-retreat-means-German-hegemony-warns-Prodi.html
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December 28, 2014 5:10pm
SGA

EAD at 5:07 pm

False Flag?

What else could it be?
(add – you changed it 🙁 )
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December 28, 2014 5:11pm
cha

False Flag?

Idiot. (sneaky edit too)
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December 28, 2014 5:17pm
EAD

@ SGA,

I’ve read about 7 different sources so far of the disappearance and this little nugget from the RT raises the antenna

“the crew asked for an “unusual route.”

Asking for an “unusual route” indicates that those on board conspired to do something with the plane. My earlier post suggested that this could be a false flag but I removed this comment as we just don’t have enough information but the above comment seems very suspicious.

Let’s wait and see instead of rushing to blame the latest boogeyman Russia, North Korea, China, ISIS, Al-Qaeda etc. shall we?

Will the media take a “wait and see” approach or will they be apportioning blame within hours?
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December 28, 2014 5:21pm
MH

who was the racist idiot editor who allowed 4 photos of “normal” young people in the Sunday Times all of whom had various genuine excuses as to why they didn’t bother to vote in the last election incl one who knew nothing about special votes having not bothered to even enrol. God deliver us, just give them all a pkt of ciggies and a copy of benefits they could all be eligible for if they got themselves pregnant. Oh that’s right they could quote their rights verbatim.
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December 28, 2014 5:42pm
mikenmild

It could be a bit of a concern in a democracy that increasing numbers of people are not engaged enough to bother voting. I’m not sure what, if anything, could be done about it.
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December 28, 2014 5:45pm
All_on_Red

EAD
Sometimes Aircraft will request a course deviation due to weather.
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December 28, 2014 5:47pm
EAD

AOR

looks like you’re correct – Zerohedge have reported that it is highly possible that the disappearance is weather related as very vigorous thunderstorms (black) were reported north of Surabaya:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-27/air-asia-confirms-lost-contact-indonesia-flight-after-crew-asked-unusual-route-155-p

Satellite imagery of the area at the time shows a weather bomb of biblical proportions…
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December 28, 2014 5:56pm
gump

Does National have a kiddy fiddler in their ranks?

The following blogger presents no new evidence but suggests that the material published in the mainstream media implies that the Northland MP Mike Sabin may soon be facing charges for sexual offences against a child.

http://laudafinem.com/2014/12/23/was-ex-cop-mike-sabins-alleged-repeat-offending-really-almost-to-horrible-for-words/

If the blogger is correct in their assessment then it would explain why the National leadership refuses to comment on the matter.
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December 28, 2014 6:22pm
Viking2

The TAB has come under an “unprecedented and concentrated cyber attack” that has targeted its website.

New Zealand Racing Board acting chief executive Glenn Patrick said the attack began on Boxing Day.

The tab.co.nz website has crashed several times since, preventing people from placing bets.

“It started on the afternoon of Boxing Day and we’ve probably had seven or eight occurrences,” he said.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/64505128/bets-go-offline-after-tab-hit-by-cyber-attack
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December 28, 2014 6:53pm
stephieboy

EAD, it’s heartening to see you trying to stick with
with some hard facts for a change on the missing Asia Airways Airbus A 320 – 200 .Lets hope and trust Zero Hedge doesn’t degenerate things into their more widely speculative shenanigans over M370 and M17 .

Trying mind you !

And let’s wait and see whether Putin’s and the Kremlin’s propaganda organs like RT and Sputnik give this one of their
more hilarious conspiracy twists. ?

And what re routing by the pilot that might suggest something sinister or nefarious exactly ?
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December 28, 2014 6:54pm
Viking2

I was reading a British paper yesterday and it told of a British woman MP who is raising the issue of children “married” to immigrants before being brought to Britain to live. some as young as 12.
Her and many others are saying that if it was a British born person then the male would be considered a peado but because the “marriage” is legal in another country as in Sharia Law then the authorities can do nothing about that.

What they are wanting is the Law made consistent so that immigrants cannot do this.
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December 28, 2014 7:13pm
EAD

Stephieboy 6.54pm,

I couldn’t follow your post – too much calcification of the pineal gland?
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December 28, 2014 7:20pm
nasska

https://www.dropbox.com/s/toariwtoud3s737/Muslim%2015.jpg?dl=0
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December 28, 2014 7:25pm
waikatogirl

Mm: It could be a bit of a concern in a democracy that increasing numbers of people are not engaged enough to bother voting. I’m not sure what, if anything, could be done about it.

**

If they are so self-absorbed are they ever going to know enough about anything to be of any use, let alone take a stab at voting?
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December 28, 2014 7:37pm
mikenmild

V2
The age of consent seems to vary quite widely between societies. What might be perfectly reasonable in one society might be deemed a crime in another.
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December 28, 2014 7:37pm
Reid

too much calcification of the pineal gland

Very droll EAD. I wonder if he’ll understand it.
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December 28, 2014 7:39pm
mikenmild

waikatogirl
I would suggest that declining rates of civic participation are not healthy. Sure, we can ignore those who don’t want to vote, but at what point would it start to undermine the concept of an inclusive democracy?
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December 28, 2014 7:40pm
nasska

….”What might be perfectly reasonable in one society might be deemed a crime in another.”….

True in part. The lower a female’s status within a society & the more she is regarded as a chattel as opposed to a person the earlier she is married off. I would suggest that should the stone-agers from Islamic lands wish to carry on with their traditions they should stay in their own counties & get on with it.

“When in Rome” springs to mind.
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December 28, 2014 7:44pm
waikatogirl

Sure, we can ignore those who don’t want to vote, but at what point would it start to undermine the concept of an inclusive democracy?

*
I would rather they not vote than have a reckless uninformed vote. All of society suffers when the an incompetent government is voted in and makes bad decisions for the economy, etc
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December 28, 2014 7:52pm
mikenmild

nasska
And how late do you think the British came around to setting the age of consent at the magic figure of 16?
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December 28, 2014 7:55pm
nasska

Wouldn’t have a clue Mike & I can’t be arsed looking it up but as I suggested in my 7.44pm, the more civilised & educated the people the older the age of marriage. If people wish to become citizens of another nation it is not unreasonable for them to follow the laws & mores of their new country.

Strangely enough, according to Wikipedia, only the freaks in Afghanistan & parts of Pakistan marry off those who are effectively babies. Even in the Yemen there are moves to raise the age of consent to Western norms.

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age
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December 28, 2014 8:05pm
waikatogirl

Nasska: ….”What might be perfectly reasonable in one society might be deemed a crime in another.”….

*
They should not be allowed to bring their child brides to the west. Surely immigration have to sight their marriage licence as part of their application. A quick calculation of her age and years of marriage must weed out those who were children when married.
Sick bastards!
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December 28, 2014 8:06pm
Nostalgia-NZ

‘gump (1,686 comments) says:

December 28th, 2014 at 6:22 pm ‘

Looks like a hot potato from reading that. Insightful deduction from LF, enough to put the guy on leave it seems – especially taking into account the less than subtle WO hints.
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December 28, 2014 8:25pm
mikenmild

The English raised the age of consent to 16 in 1885.
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December 28, 2014 8:33pm
Hugh Pavletich

Russia’s crisis has no end in sight as $50 oil looms, says OECD – Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/oilprices/11309207/Russias-crisis-has-no-end-in-sight-as-50-oil-looms-says-OECD.html

There is no end in sight for Russia’s economic crisis, as crippling sanctions and tumbling oil prices leave the country staring into an abyss, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development has warned. … read more via hyperlink above …
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December 28, 2014 8:34pm
chiz

Oh dear:

[…]

It seems likely that copies of the film will get into North Korea, probably from China where it is reported that there have already been thousands of downloads – even though it’s not supposed to be available.

The reaction in China seems to have been favourable from ordinary people and unfavourable from the people at the top.

According to the New York Times, The Interview got a very high score on a Chinese film appreciation website, with more than 10,000 people posting reviews.

On the other hand, one of the papers run by the Communist Party said the film represented “senseless cultural arrogance.”

[…]
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December 28, 2014 8:41pm
nasska

The law may have been playing catch-up Mike. From, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age

….”Still, in most of Northwestern Europe, marriage at very early ages was rare. One thousand marriage certificates from 1619 to 1660 in the Archdiocese of Canterbury show that only one bride was 13 years of age, four were 15, twelve were 16, and seventeen were 17 years of age while the other 966 brides were at least 19 years of age at marriage. And the Church dictated that both the bride and groom must be at least 21 years of age to marry without the consent of their families; in the certificates, the most common age for the brides is 22 years. For the grooms 24 years is the most common age, with average ages of 24 years for the brides and 27 for the grooms.[16] While European noblewomen married early, they were a small minority[17] and the marriage certificates from Canterbury show that even among nobility it was very rare to marry women off at very early ages”…..

I’ll concede that in the case of the lower classes of the Industrial Age ,who procreated without the blessing of the Lord, pregnancy was usually the harbinger of common law marriages.

The point stands that little girls of 5 & 9 deserve to be afforded protection from dirty old men & the latter can stuff their customs up their unwashed backsides.
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December 28, 2014 8:46pm
cha

Indeed Hugh, reduced to selling energy on tick.

Russia will supply coal and electricity to Kiev without advance payment as a goodwill gesture from President Vladimir Putin, his spokesman Dmitry Peskov told TASS news agency.

“Putin made a decision to start these supplies due to the critical situation with energy supplies and despite a lack of prepayment,” Peskov said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/27/us-ukraine-crisis-russia-coal-idUSKBN0K508F20141227
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December 28, 2014 8:47pm
All_on_Red

Cha
“Indeed Hugh, reduced to selling energy on tick.”
Reduced? Stop telling lies. Russia has always advanced gas or coal supplies on credit. The Ukraine owes billions.
Gosh, you’re not even a very good troll!
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December 28, 2014 9:00pm
All_on_Red

Hugh
Russia only gets 27% of it’s tax revenue from oil…that’s still a lot but Russia’s local economy is doing quite well selling to themselves. A pattern all emerging economies go through. And Russia really has only been developing in the past decade.
You like long reports. Have a flick through this. I was quite surprised at the data. It seems a bit more thorough than what you read in the newspapers.
http://www.awaragroup.com/upload/Awara-Study-Russian-Economy.pdf
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December 28, 2014 9:15pm
Richard II

All of society suffers when the an incompetent government is voted in and makes bad decisions for the economy, etc

waikatogirl

Indeed. We’ll be paying for the government voted in in 2008 for a long long time to come.
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December 28, 2014 9:16pm
All_on_Red

How so Richard?
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December 28, 2014 9:16pm
All_on_Red

Lots of dissembling trolls on this site.
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December 28, 2014 9:17pm
Reid

That’s alright. Trolls are just misunderstood children looking for affection, aren’t they Wichard.

http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/12/trolls-haters-just-badly-behaved-fans/#more-170093

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
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December 28, 2014 9:22pm
SPC

Reid, the same insight of Kierkegaard describes the sycophant. The accord with the blogger’s bias. Also how the middle class fawns on established power – feeling safe within its embrace by supporting it.

In that sense, as a well known critic of the western establishment – are you coming out as a misunderstood child?
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December 28, 2014 10:33pm
Reid

Read Kierkegaard’s thesis on Subjective Truth SPC.

You might learn something. Or you might not.

Over to you.

It’s important.
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December 28, 2014 10:56pm
Left Right and Centre

Pupils (students study to learn, pupils learn to study) are being taught they may not think, only towing the party line is acceptable in current education facilities.

The irony. Speaking of education. Toeing the line. Hahahahaha – towing the line – hahahaha – where are you taking it to mate – hahahahahahahaha. It tells ya who hasn’t really done their 10 000 hours eh ?
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December 29, 2014 2:47am
Maggy Wassilieff

for the idomatically challenged

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYZjIZxcB18
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December 29, 2014 3:31am
IGM

The scumbags at taxpayer-funded TV1 covered all insignificant happenings in Auckland, not a word of the bus crash at Waitarere, bet if there had been a Labour/Green MP on board it would have been lead item!
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December 29, 2014 6:18am
mikenmild

How dare they, IGM. What a scandal. Complain to your MP.
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December 29, 2014 6:34am
IGM

mikewimp: I don’t bother with MPs, like public servants, they give me the shits. Anyone who cannot provide their own sustenance is not on my contact list.
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December 29, 2014 6:51am
mikenmild

Your refusal to bother with public servants would make life a bit difficult for you if you needed to call the police or wanted to send your kids to school.
I take it that your detestation of those who cannot provide for themselves will ensure you refuse to accept superannuation when you turn 65.
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December 29, 2014 6:57am
IGM

Police are not bureaucratic bludgers, and so far as schools, our children went private. So far as super, I have more than paid for the pittance that is due to me. This should be paid on a contributory basis, so as those that have worked hard and succeeded, be paid more than the leeches that have hidden behind unions.
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December 29, 2014 7:15am
mikenmild

You sent your kids to a private primary school? What a waste of money. Paid for your own super, eh? A common response from leeches. Don’t forget to get your gold card as well so we can pay for your bus fares. I suppose you would never go to a doctor or hospital either lest you be contaminated by contact with public servants. And you no doubt refuse to travel by roads that were built by the efforts of public servants either.
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December 29, 2014 7:24am
MT_Tinman

Left Right and Centre (3,024 comments) says:
December 29th, 2014 at 2:47 am

Pupils (students study to learn, pupils learn to study) are being taught they may not think, only towing the party line is acceptable in current education facilities.

The irony. Speaking of education. Toeing the line. Hahahahaha – towing the line – hahahaha – where are you taking it to mate – hahahahahahahaha. It tells ya who hasn’t really done their 10 000 hours eh ?

I agree and will happily lead the lynch party for the bastard who put the “w” next to the “e” on my keyboard however as my comment was about freedom of thought the rest of your point is lost on me.
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December 29, 2014 7:52am
IGM

milkwimp: The retort of a leeching public servant. Come on, go into business, get a private sector job . . . you would have neither the guts nor ability! By the way, we don’t have buses in the country, this being the domain for bludgers such as you.
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December 29, 2014 8:01am
mikenmild

Whereabouts do you live, that you can miraculously dispense with using any services provided by taxpayers or ratepayers?
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December 29, 2014 8:05am
IGM

milkwimp: I take a bit of humour in public servants performing roading projects. The MoW was as, if not more, useless than railways. Where are they now? Also, I pay rates, in more than one area, possibly in excess of your taxpayer-funded salary. Can’t wait to see what people such as you do when these bullshit jobs are disestablished!
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December 29, 2014 8:09am
mikenmild

You think contracting out public work to private companies makes the work less of a public service?

I can’t wait for my job to be disestablished. The redundancy and generous pension would give me a very comfortable retirement. Won’t happen though, so I’ve decided to keep serving my fellow taxpayers as long as I can.
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December 29, 2014 8:18am
IGM

milkwimp: Don’t know how you lefties can go through life knowing you have achieved nothing, produced nothing, and are a failure.
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December 29, 2014 11:10am
Left Right and Centre

I agree and will happily lead the lynch party for the bastard who put the “w” next to the “e” on my keyboard however as my comment was about freedom of thought the rest of your point is lost on me.

Well put a bit more bloody care and effort into your typing perhaps ? You’re all over the show I’ve noticed from other comments. Backspace and delete are your friends – and checking for glaring comical errors. But do whatever pleases you. The commenters with messy bastard comments – I tend to think they’re a bit fruitcakey.
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December 30, 2014 7:54am

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