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December 21, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 21 December 2014

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General Debate

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Reid

So what are the allegations exactly?

Not interested in detailing nosty since it’s all available to someone genuinely interested and prepared to change their mind.

If I were you, I wouldn’t spend much time on that aspect, the impossibility of the physics evidenced by the three collapses we all witnessed is the smoking gun.

But like I say, don’t bother investigating if you’re not prepared to change your mind. Your preparedness to do that is what you need to deal with, more than the evidence that presents itself to you as you really start to look at it.
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December 21, 2014 8:18pm
Nostradamus

Reid:

Not interested in detailing nosty since it’s all available to someone genuinely interested and prepared to change their mind.

I freely admit that I haven’t read widely on the subject of 911 – or, for that matter, 911 conspiracies.

But Reid, as someone who has over the years politely listened to your views on a variety of subjects, I’m disappointed that you can’t at least give me a nudge in the right direction. Is there a website that (in your view) accurately sets out the hologram-missile allegations?

If I were you, I wouldn’t spend much time on that aspect, the impossibility of the physics evidenced by the collapse we all witnessed is the smoking gun.

Yes, but as I said, this is the first time I’d heard about the hologram-missile allegations (in the context of the no-plane theory). I trust you’ll forgive me for being slightly sceptical, but I’m happy to see any conclusive evidence that you care to put up.
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December 21, 2014 8:24pm
MT_Tinman

Shawn Herles (6,693 comments) says:
December 21st, 2014 at 7:51 pm

Well in theory the idea is that in some cases revealing the identity of a victim or victims can do more harm than good, or that it could do unfair harm to the spouse of the criminal. The effect publicity can have on child victims is why name suppression is used in some child abuse cases.

How can the publicity harm the victim no matter of what age if they did nothing wrong?

Is it shameful in your (or the theorists) world to be a victim?
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December 21, 2014 8:27pm
mikenmild

For myself, I’m not so interested in exploring the technical minutiae of what could, or could not, have happened on 9/11 as I am interested in the mind-set of those who subscribe to ludicrous conspiracy theories.
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December 21, 2014 8:28pm
stephieboy

Reid, oh next you’ll be informing us the Bush admistration mediciated the New York munipal water supplies with fluoride in preparation for the controlled demolition.

Any witnesses to the laying of the demolition charges for this piece of twoofer twerpishness of yours ?
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December 21, 2014 8:28pm
mikenmild

MT_Tinman
Do you seriously think that a child victim of a sex offender should have his or her name revealed against his or her wishes to satisfy your desire for justice to be done publicly?
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December 21, 2014 8:30pm
SGA

MT_Tinman at 8:27 pm

How can the publicity harm the victim no matter of what age if they did nothing wrong?

Put it this way – if you as a young adolescent had been forced to give blow jobs to a gang of older boys and been anally raped, would you want as little as possible publicity about that following you for the rest of your life. People can be cruel.
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December 21, 2014 8:34pm
Reid

Is there a website that (in your view) accurately sets out the hologram-missile allegations?

No, because I know you’re bright, but even bright people need a path to follow. I’ve suggested one. I’m not being condescending, I’m suggesting that you follow a path for the same reason a lawyer would suggest a 2013 law graduate isn’t yet qualified to defend someone accused of murder and if they wish to, one day, then they too, should follow a path.

Not quite so extreme as that, but you know the analogy.
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December 21, 2014 8:36pm
freemark

Every single 9/11 Conspira-whacko theory has been thoroughly discredited, over & over again by rational & sane engineers (structural, mechanical, aeronautical, explosives etc)
That some people still rabbit on & cite amateur keyboard warriors who need to put words like “truth” in their URLs is only testament to the creeping insanity overtaking civilisation.
FFS…
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December 21, 2014 8:50pm
stephieboy

Reid and EAD ,

The Psycholgy of Conspiracy beliefs,

Victoria University research findings that though you don’t have to be mad to belive in conspiracy theories it sure does help,

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/64114756/The-psychology-of-conspiracy-belief
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December 21, 2014 8:52pm
Nostradamus

Reid:

I’m suggesting that you follow a path for the same reason a lawyer would suggest a 2013 law graduate isn’t yet qualified to defend someone accused of murder and if they wish to, one day, then they too, should follow a path.

Ok – forget about the intricacies of 911 for the moment – let’s change tack.

What lessons do you take away from 911?

One lesson, depending on your point of view, is that terrorism has become increasingly characterised by notions of sacrifice and self-matyrdom (eg suicide bombings).

Look at what happened in Ottawa recently. And Sydney. Regardless of whether you describe what happened in both cities as terrorism, or the deranged acts of lone-wolf nutters, the people in the street are frightened about what might happen next.

Then add in the kind of sophisticated social networking (jihadist recruitment agencies) and professional cinematography (beheadings in high-definition) that we’ve become accustomed to seeing from ISIS.

Now, if you were a high-powered bureaucrat with responsibility for defence affairs, you’d have to do a lot more scenario analysis and contingency planning, wouldn’t you?
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December 21, 2014 8:53pm
SGA

freemark at 8:50 pm

testament to the creeping insanity overtaking civilisation.

Maybe, maybe not. I suspect it’s always been there to a certain extent – techno-conspiracies have probably replaced more witchcraft or occult-based ones (as examples).
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December 21, 2014 8:54pm
Rowan

Cha
Bigot Blouse is not worth the time of day, if he wants to argue that black is in fact white then why waste time arguing with the deluded nutcase?
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December 21, 2014 8:57pm
big bruv

Still as angry as ever I see Rowan.
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December 21, 2014 8:59pm
Reid

What lessons do you take away from 911?

The fact the West aren’t the good guys Nosty.

The fact the West don’t prevent crises, they cause them.

The fact the West disguise those crises behind the veil of being innocent and they’re merely reacting.

The fact that logic and facts don’t count when you’re discussing this with people soaked in Western propaganda, for they have an emotional connexion which overrules their logical circuits.

The fact that this is all established sub-consciously. Therefore not noticeable on the consciously level.
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December 21, 2014 9:08pm
MT_Tinman

mikenmild (12,400 comments) says:
December 21st, 2014 at 8:30 pm

MT_Tinman
Do you seriously think that a child victim of a sex offender should have his or her name revealed against his or her wishes to satisfy your desire for justice to be done publicly?

And SGA.

If the victim has done no wrong why should whatever actions they have been forced to do be anything other than sympathised?
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December 21, 2014 9:19pm
mikenmild

‘Therefore not noticeable on the consciously level.’
Except by the discerning.
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December 21, 2014 9:19pm
SGA

MT_Tinman at 9:19 pm

If the victim has done no wrong why should whatever actions they have been forced to do be anything other than sympathised?

In a perfect world, that would true. But as I said, people can be cruel (especially children and adolescents).
“C’mon MT_Tinman, you homo, you liked it didn’t you”
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December 21, 2014 9:23pm
Rowan

No Bigot Blouse
I am actually quite calm and am not going to get into a flame war with you despite you trying to provoke one, you must have a sad and pathetic existence if this is your daily entertainment (but we already know that don’t we!)
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December 21, 2014 9:25pm
freemark

Actually I think what is behind the whole 9/11 & other fantasy is something more sinister, but increasingly obvious…
Everything possible must be done to discredit Capitalism/Freemarkets etc. The US is the obvious target (and Israel). As Socialism/Communism has spectacularly failed everywhere and is in it’s dying throes & fighting desperately to retain any credibility as an organisational system. Desperately is the operative word..hence the Environmental bandwagon etc. Socialism has an uneasy alliance with Muslim Fundamentalism/Terrorism in this desire to bring down the West..the increasing wealth, health, freedom & happiness of billions of people will leave too much egg on too many “liberal” faces..and no lie, destruction of property, energy poverty or mass starvation is too much for the Enemy to contemplate to prove their Marxist theory..
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December 21, 2014 9:36pm
SGA

@freemark
That’s it, you’ve got natural talent. 🙂
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December 21, 2014 9:39pm
Reid

You carry on thinking that Freemark, in your ignorance.

But while you happily hallucinate your very own ~~construct~~ fantasy, don’t expect anyone who does understand it to correct you.
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December 21, 2014 9:42pm
freemark

@ Reid
Just out of interest, what’s your background/training/experience that makes you one of the chosen few to have all this knowledge that most of us lack?
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December 21, 2014 10:03pm
Reid

The only “qualification” I have freemark is that I’m happy to let the evidence lead me where it will, without getting all emotional about it.

By that I mean I simply follow Conan-Doyle’s dictum, summarised in my own mind as: “whatever it says, no matter how absurd, if that’s really, truly and indubitably what it really truly says, so be it and who cares. If that’s what it says, who cares if the way I used to think the world worked, doesn’t work like that, if that’s what the FACTS say about that [issue I’m looking at]?”

And I think you’ll find when you research the actual words he put into Sherlock’s mouth, that’s pretty much what he said you should do.

And while that was fiction, sometimes fiction says a lot in terms of the real world.

And note, please, and I say this more for the morons here than you, this of course means, you look at whether or not said FACTS really are FACTS or whether they’re bollocks, but the decision as to whether or not they are truly facts or not has nothing to do with your own worldview, rather than, what is the evidence offered here?

What I find extremely striking about the arguments from people who don’t understand what the – in their terms – conspiwacy theowists – are saying is: that the critics have absolutely no idea what the actual allegations are, and even more striking, they’re not even interested in finding out what the actual allegations are.

But to get to them, that’s all you need to do, but note, that’s not easy.

For what it means in reality is: you need to put your logic circuits on hold unless and until you’ve assimilated the entirety of the argument and then re-engage them.

Now this is nothing more nor less than what detectives are supposed to do when they’re solving crimes, but do they always do that?

Clearly not. Quite often, apparently, detectives in the real world decide whose guilty and then their subconscious kicks in and they make the facts fit the case. Sometimes they know they’re doing that in themselves and they do it anyway, and sometimes they don’t believe they’re doing that at all and their conclusions are based on science and fact, period.

And that’s the world you’re exploring. And your mindset needs to be able to distinguish all of those nuances, lest you either get led down one path, which is that you give up before you’ve got all the real actual facts because it’s just too fucking nuts and you can’t stand it anymore, vs you believe every little thing you’ve read, which leads you to the same erroneous conclusion. The real analysts, lie in between those extremes, and those are the ones you need to emulate and locate on the interweb, if you’re even interested in the first place, in embarking on the journey. And that’s your first question.

And if you answer that in the negative, then be prepared to be shocked, at the things the evil ones have in store.
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December 21, 2014 10:19pm
mikenmild

I certainly agree that one needs ‘to put your logic circuits on hold’ if one expects to reach the conclusion that secret societies are ruling the world.
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December 21, 2014 10:57pm
Reid

I certainly agree that one needs ‘to put your logic circuits on hold’ if one expects to reach the conclusion that secret societies are ruling the world.

mm, you have no idea what I think about who rules the world or indeed anything else.

So please don’t pretend you do.

It’s just your childish meanderings are demeaning for you in terms of their naivety, not to mention their inaccuracy.

I just don’t want people to think you’re a complete moron mm. I realise it may be too late, but I hope you appreciate the courtesy. Although I suspect you won’t.
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December 21, 2014 10:59pm
sam green

The problem is so very simply fixed. Never mind this looney left and rabid right and rather false and stupid dichotomy. Pay your taxes as you should – ethically and morally. Don’t go hiding your wealth in trusts, etc. Declare your true income and pay your taxes. Oh – and vote for the least corrupt so your taxes get spent wisely and thriftily on the things that support us all to live well and prosper as we are able. Support our environment – it helps us live.
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December 21, 2014 11:26pm
Hugh Pavletich

JOHN KEY’S SUPPORTERS SUSPECT MEDIA ANTICS …

Posted at … http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/12/general_debate_21_december_2014.html

I got a report today about an MSM media person who received a personally signed Christmas card from PM John Key.

The person in question (who hardly knows the guy) thought it rather odd. I know this persons views of Mr Key are not at all positive. Meaning … that it’s hardly a friendship !

With the infantile and idiotic ad hominin responses to reasonable posts here at Kiwiblog ( http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/12/general_debate_21_december_2014.html ) … and this Christmas card matter as well … it does make one wonder if there is an organised group within the National Party around Mr Key engaging in media mischief.

The recent puff piece by Dr Oliver Hartwich of the NZ Initiative (formally the NZ Business Roundtable), in making the hilarious suggestion that PM Key is a reformer, hardly inspires confidence either ( http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/12/general_debate_21_december_2014.html )

After Dr Oliver Hartwich was told by UK PM David Cameron to bugger off out of Britain, it may be that Oliver is just searching for political love elsewhere on the planet.

Some within Labour tell me an element within the National Party is up to mischief in the wider media. However, I’m more interested in learning from others.

It reminds me very much of the Muldoon days … with the “Rob’s Mob” groupies.

Remember Robs “mate” Colin MacLauchlan his Transport Minister, those brain-dead Rob’s Mob Meetings throughout the county … and the rest of it. Then the country hit the wall in 1984.

Redbaiter and others are correct … it is rather pathetic. It is best however to allow readers to draw their own conclusions about the antics going on.

It is telling me (incidentally …I didn’t come down in the last shower) that the “can kicker” Key camp within National is feeling insecure and threatened. Quality discussion of real issues in the public arena clearly doesn’t suit them. We will no doubt learn more as time goes on.

As the saying goes in politics … rooster today … feather duster tomorrow ! Ask Bob Parker of Christchurch … who the Key camp tried all they could to protect … but failed.

Hugh Pavletich
Co-author Annual Demographia International Housing Affordability Survey
http://www.performanceurbanplanning.org/ & http://info.scoop.co.nz/Hugh_Pavletich
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December 22, 2014 4:08am
Viking2

A nice bit of Wairarapa History.

https://www.facebook.com/624647914290150/photos/a.739770189444588.1073741832.624647914290150/743445575743716/?type=1&theater
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December 22, 2014 6:47am

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