General Debate 12 December 2014

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cricko

No need to apologise Shawn.

Take a moment to read through the last few comments and see if you can help
out your mate Odakyu.

By the way Shawn, I respect that you do often address the question as opposed to mikenmild for e.g.
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December 12, 2014 7:22pm
Shawn Herles

Take a moment to read through the last few comments and see if you can help
out your mate Odakyu.

No thanks. One debate at a time is enough for me. Anyway, based on his past comments, I’m likely to agree with Odakyu anyway.
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December 12, 2014 7:25pm
Odakyu-sen

cricko,

I gave my answer (indirectly) at 6:53 p.m.

Reform social welfare. Induce fewer beneficiaries.
Make welfare into something that you want to get away from as soon as possible. (Japanese style.)
No dogs. No fancy mobile phones. No booze. No drugs. No luxuries. No attitudes.
Lots of shame. Lots of humility and gratitude. Lots of wanting to improve one’s lot and help one’s fellow man.
Lots of opportunities for redemption. Lots of training. Rewards for improvement.
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December 12, 2014 7:32pm
Shawn Herles

By the way Shawn, I respect that you do often address the question as opposed to mikenmild for e.g.

Thankyou! 🙂

I’m not actually ignoring you or the convo between you and Odakyu-sen, I’m just very busy right now.
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December 12, 2014 7:36pm
Pete George

This may be the last political poll of the year, from Roy Morgan:

– National 46% (down 3.5% in a month)
– Labour Party 27% (up 3%)
– Greens 12% (down 2.5%)
– NZ First 7% (up 0.5%)
– Maori Party 2% (up 1%)
– Act NZ 1.5% (up 1%)
– United Future 0% (unchanged)

Parties outside Parliament:

– Conservative Party 2.5% (up 0.5%)
– Internet-Mana Party alliance 1% (up 0.5%
– Independent/ Others is 1% (down 0.5%).

A glimmer of hope for Andrew Little and Labour.
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December 12, 2014 7:36pm
stigie

That poll is what we all expected, National down, Liarbore up !~
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December 12, 2014 7:48pm
IGM

Hear tell Hager may be appointed press secretary for Little. This being organised by McCarten . . . how about that?
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December 12, 2014 7:48pm
cricko

Oh dear Odakyu..@ 6.53

You must be aware that others are reading this exchange.

So…”reform social welfare”.. that is your plan ?
So how?
How in your mind, would you induce fewer beneficiaries ?

We got it that you would want to reduce the number of beneficiaries.
We can agree on that..however.
We would like to hear how.

I told you how I would approach it.

Are you able to spell out your plan ?

Give out more free money ?
Is that it ?
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December 12, 2014 7:56pm
starboard

LMFAO…classic Griff.
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December 12, 2014 7:59pm
big bruv

I am a huge fan of Australia. I love their climate. I love their “can do” attitude. I love their attitude to sport, and I am a huge fan of their approach to life in general.

However, there is one thing about Australia that I simply cannot abide. That one thing is David Warner.
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December 12, 2014 8:02pm
Pete George

Nickey Hager’s sister is now authoring at The Standard –
http://thestandard.org.nz/this-is-not-business-as-usual-this-is-not-some-hippy-over-reaction-this-is-serious-shit/
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December 12, 2014 8:03pm
Odakyu-sen

cricko,

Our postings seem to be out of phase. I gave some suggestions at 7:32.
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December 12, 2014 8:13pm
cricko

Dear Odakyu

I read your effort @ 7.32 but you must have missed my question.

HOW?

How would you reform social welfare ?
How would you induce fewer beneficiaries ?

Some have practical solutions, some dream of utopia.

The one salient question that always trips you, and your type up….is HOW ?
Thats where you fuck up. Simple question. No reply, how come?

I can spell out my solution in one sentence….why can’t you.

Doesn’t that tell you something ?
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December 12, 2014 8:26pm
Yvette

Police will likely have to disclose Hager raid documents
A judge has signalled he will likely order police to disclose some documents they want to keep secret about the decision to raid author Nicky Hager’s home looking for the identity of the email hacker Rawshark.

The item has some odd little points in it –

Hager’s lawyer, Julian Miles, QC, who confessed he had not read Dirty Politics, said Hager was entitled to know whether police considered journalistic privilege not to reveal sources before deciding to search.

Prime Minister John Key claimed to not have read the Police Report on John Banks. Is Julian Miles similarly protecting himself by not reading DIRTY POLITICS

In the meantime the parties are still talking about how Hager can get a copy of the information seized. He has so far objected to it being copied at the police electronic crime laboratory because he says the information seized contains allegations of police corruption.
Hager’s challenge to the search and seizure of the information is due to be heard next March.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/64095110/Police-will-likely-have-to-disclose-Hager-raid-documents

So, “the information seized contains allegations of police corruption” – that’s an interesting little twist.
And is it correct that Police seized material but a judge still has to OK their actually looking through it.
It was also reported that Hager was working with Glenn Greenwald on a Five Eyes exposé, using some of Snowden’s material which may also be among what was seized.
What do the new SIS laws allow them to now with, or without, a warrant.

Meanwhile Slater claims to know the identity of Rawshark, how much he was paid, and who he “worked for”, and the relationship to McCarten, which could become a substantial Little problem 🙂
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December 12, 2014 8:31pm
nasska

Paying out the discretionary part of benefits in the form of cards not valid for the purchase of alcohol or tobacco products would be a bloody good starting point.
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December 12, 2014 8:34pm
Redbaiter

Yeah that’s right Mr “liberal” Nasska.

All we need to solve every problem is bigger and better govt.
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December 12, 2014 8:36pm
nasska

Better to just issue them begging bowls & confine them to certain parts of town you reckon Baity?
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December 12, 2014 8:38pm
nasska

On reflection, how would it be necessary to implement a bigger & better government to change a payment system?
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December 12, 2014 8:42pm
Shawn Herles

How would you reform social welfare ?
How would you induce fewer beneficiaries ?

Cricko, I would argue that the current government is doing both of those things, so you could look at their specific policies.

I also think Odakyu-sen’s 7:13 post has some very good suggestions, as does naaska’s 8:34.
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December 12, 2014 8:48pm
mikenmild

I’m not sure your proposal would actually stop beneficiaries from obtaining alcohol or tobacco, nasska.
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December 12, 2014 8:50pm
Shawn Herles

I’m not sure your proposal would actually stop beneficiaries from obtaining alcohol or tobacco, nasska.

It would stop them from using welfare payment’s for that purpose. That’s a start.
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December 12, 2014 8:53pm
Griff

Come on nasska redbaiter isn’t about offering solutions.
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December 12, 2014 8:54pm
mikenmild

No Shawn. It might be a bit more difficult. A beneficiary would have to buy some approved items at the supermarket, trade those for cash and then purchase booze and smokes.
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December 12, 2014 8:57pm
nasska

Neither do random breath tests stop drink driving Mike but they sure put a curb on the behaviour. I’ve heard most versions of the groceries for grog traders theory & I don’t doubt that it would occur on a minor scale.

Even if the DPB & dole bludgers do it I doubt that they’d get 50cents in the $ terms of trade. It would make getting a hangover an expensive business.
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December 12, 2014 8:59pm
Pete George

“Hear tell Hager may be appointed press secretary for Little. This being organised by McCarten . . ”

Need something to substantiate that. It would be a very curious appointment alongside Yvette’s comment:

“Meanwhile Slater claims to know the identity of Rawshark, how much he was paid, and who he “worked for”, and the relationship to McCarten, which could become a substantial Little problem.”
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December 12, 2014 8:59pm
Redbaiter

redbaiter isn’t about offering solutions.

Not fucking dumb ones like that.

They’d just swap groceries for booze and fags.

Typical clueless lib.

Change without thinking it through.

(edit: Its so fucking dumb even Milky is rubbishing it.)
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December 12, 2014 8:59pm
Shawn Herles

As naaska says mike, it would be a curb, and that is a good start. Also I’m not sure the process you describe would be that easy.
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December 12, 2014 9:01pm
Kea

Buy a leg of lamb for your mate. He buys you a slab of Tui and a packet of smokes. Simple.
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December 12, 2014 9:01pm
Griff

Part of the problem is the cost of working is not balanced by the reward.
ie if you are a low skill the difference between work and welfare is not great enough to really make it worth your while to work.
Forty hours per week for a couple of hundred extra when you get that from a few hours grey market activity like cash jobs or selling stuff on trade me.
Our immigration policy depresses low skill income and increases the problem of the income defecate for the low skilled compared to welfare .
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December 12, 2014 9:05pm
Shawn Herles

With cigarettes in particular the sheer cost of smokes today would make any food for cigs trade unlikely, especially over the long haul, as in a week or two, given that most smokers are on a pack a day more or less.
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December 12, 2014 9:05pm
nasska

That would happen Kea but naysayers generally think in terms of bags of sugar being swapped for smokes out the back of a van in the supermarket carpark.

I know it is possible but it takes away the temptation of impulse buying & makes smokes & grog pretty hard & expensive to get.
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December 12, 2014 9:09pm
Kea

Griff, our immigration policy favours more highly skilled people. The glaring exception being Pacific Islanders, who get to bypass the usual criteria.

They continue to do this even while claiming they are a group “over represented” in negative social statistics. This is usually raised as proof we must “do something” to help the problem. I agree. We should apply the same criteria to all people and not allow low skilled people who can’t speak English to flood in from the Islands.
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December 12, 2014 9:12pm
Kea

nasska, even if they spent their entire dole money on smokes and booze, it would still buy bugger all of either. Many people exist on astonishingly low incomes.
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December 12, 2014 9:14pm
nasska

….”Many people exist on astonishingly low incomes”….

So they reckon but there’s still a significant number who spend up on grog, dope, smokes & buckets of KFC at a level that would put a dent in my earnings & I finance the arseholes via my taxes.
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December 12, 2014 9:18pm
Griff

Does it kea could have fooled me
When I worked in industry a decade ago our low skill workers were predominantly imports.
It used to be poly and maori but towards the late ninties new workers were mostly Asian
Bangladesh India Pakistan shi lanka Malaysia etc
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December 12, 2014 9:22pm
Odakyu-sen

cricko,

Place a 6-month termination on the dole.
After that: no work = go to the soup kitchen to avoid starvation, sleep in the poor-house barracks. Attend training for workforce re-entry.
Deliver welfare in non-cash form (the poor house; you can’t take it with you or barter it). Make it just enough to keep you alive, but sufficient to alter your attitude and make you willing to work and learn new skills.

Curb/ban the immigration of non-skilled workers.
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December 12, 2014 9:23pm
Kea

nasska, I could spend that in a single night. See for yourself.

http://www.workandincome.govt.nz/individuals/brochures/benefit-rates-april-2014.html#JobseekerSupport1
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December 12, 2014 9:25pm
Redbaiter

I finance the arseholes via my taxes.

Not so. You’re a net receiver of government benefits. And you were a govt mail contractor while you used some pissant loss making hillbilly gorse farm to avoid taxes. Like most “liberals” you’re a hypocrite first of all.
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December 12, 2014 9:28pm
Kea

Griff, yeah it puzzles me too. I have a number of German mates who had to jump through all sorts of hoops to get here. One of them was young, healthy, educated, excellent English, had worked here previously on a visa and loved our country. But no way could she come and live here. It broke her heart.

Yet, as you say, there still appears to be these low skilled folk around. Some are refugees, but that is very few. They change the criteria often, but that is usually related to identified skill shortages, which is unlikely to include low skilled jobs.
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December 12, 2014 9:29pm
Griff

redbaiter true blue is calling you why dont you go home and write a big long post about how all the libtards on kb are giving you shit
We will not complain for a few weeks if you whore your blog on here and you can just communicate with those of your intelligence
duh
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December 12, 2014 9:32pm
nasska

Whatever you’re on pass it around Baity. A few things I may have done but delivering mail ain’t one of them. 🙂
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December 12, 2014 9:33pm
Kea

It used to be poly and maori but towards the late ninties new workers were mostly Asian
Bangladesh India Pakistan shi lanka Malaysia etc

Griff, I suggest the latter were not actually low skilled, but were doing low skilled work. The Indian was probably a computer whiz or something, for example.
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December 12, 2014 9:34pm
Griff

Family visa and student visa allow a lot in and once here they get allowed to bring the rest of the village.
Paper qualification from some backwater uni in Bangladesh dont mean shit in the real job market .
I once had a Bangladeshi master of engineering in my crew
He couldn’t tie his fuckin shoe laces let alone learn how to run industrial plant.
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December 12, 2014 9:36pm
Kea

nasska, amusing how Red is always slagging off honest hard working farmers, but grovels to wanker speculators and bankers, the dickhead.

Maybe he should first check on where NZ earns its money from ?

http://www.treasury.govt.nz/economy/overview/2013/nzefo-13.pdf
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December 12, 2014 9:39pm
nasska

Farming pays a lot of the bills for New Zealand Co. Ltd Kea. The churn merchants tend to overlook that.
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December 12, 2014 9:46pm
Kea

nasska, people now days like to imagine that we are no longer a farming nation and hallucinate its all about IT and stuff. This is clearly nonsense, but politicians play along with it to make all those voters in places like Auckland feel good about themselves.
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December 12, 2014 9:52pm
stigie

Thats interesting Nasska, how do you farm gorse ?
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December 12, 2014 9:53pm
Kea

If we don’t allow low paid Filipino’s into NZ, who is going to wipe the dribble off of Reds chin at the care facility ? 😉
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December 12, 2014 9:54pm
Odakyu-sen

And while we’re on the subject of work, we need motivation for the working man.

Pop the housing bubble and soak the speculators by capping immigration. A basic 2-bedroom dwelling should be approx. 3.5 times a single person’s full-time wage (whatever that is).

This country needs investment in companies (that employ people and generate income) rather than into house flipping and land speculation. People can’t do that if every last cent from two incomes goes into paying off a 30-year mortgage. Bring back the conditions that favored one stay-at-home parent and placed family and community about consumerism. (I couldn’t help myself. This is what conservatives are supposed to love to rant about. )
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December 12, 2014 9:58pm
nasska

….”This is what conservatives are supposed to love to rant about. “….

We knew you wouldn’t let your side down. 🙂
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December 12, 2014 10:01pm
Griff

Odakyu-sen
We will let you rant if you continue to offer ideas and debate.
Its the nameless one who always attacks the present but never gives real input towards change just simple slogans and mindless dribble.
I have diagnosed him as having Consrvo tourette syndrome.
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December 12, 2014 10:03pm
Odakyu-sen

nasska and Griff,

I beg your indulgence for the occasional rant.

I think that if we can freely exchange opinions then we stand a chance of shaping each others’ opinions.

After all, the real battle is for your opponent’s mind. (Just be careful you don’t lose yours…) 😉
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December 12, 2014 10:14pm
Shawn Herles

Odakyu-sen,

your 9:58 post was very good, not at all a rant. As Griff says, we can see examples of ranting above from a certain contributer, but your posts in contrast actually have substance, and better still, don’t involve calling people silly names and insulting how they earn a living.

Keep it up. Even when I’m not sure I agree, I always enjoy reading your comments.
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December 12, 2014 10:22pm
Reid

After all, the real battle is for your opponent’s mind.

The real battle on this forum is to put information and keep calm while idiots misinterpret what you’ve just said.
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December 12, 2014 10:24pm
Redbaiter

“After all, the real battle is for your opponent’s mind.”

Mate, if you got ever either Grief’s, Narsekissa’s or Sheriff Shawn’s mind, all you’d want to do would be to throw them in the rubbish bin. They’re so fevered and deranged you wouldn’t even want to use them as pet food.

The only use these losers have is as stalking horses. There are people who read these forums who are not as deranged as these three, and just don’t comment so much or not at all. That’s where you make the impact. And Narsekissa and his buddies make theirs too, as trolls, liars, narks, cowards, progs and other assorted looney tune brain damaged fruit cakes.

They’re the best advertisement for “liberals” you could ask for.
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December 12, 2014 11:00pm
ngatimozart

A NZ woman residing in Australia as a warrant out for her arrest because the Christchurch Police allege that she has breached a court suppression order. They allege that she posted the name of a prominent New Zealander who had their name permanently suppressed by a Dunedin Court following an indecent assault incident. This is the same suppression order that Tau Henare is in court over. http://i.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/64113861/Woman-charged-over-suppression-breach. What is not stated is whether or not the alleged offence took place in NZ. I would’ve thought that if she resides off shore and posts on a site that is not NZ based then NZ law wouldn’t apply. Or is that a fallacy? Maybe the lawyers on here could advise. Personally I do not see why said pervert should have name suppression. He gave up that right when he assaulted the female.
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December 12, 2014 11:18pm
Odakyu-sen

To Shawn, Reid, Redbaiter, cricko, Griff, nasska, mikenmild,

Gentlemen, thank you for your diverse comments today.

(Kiwiblog would be a dull and dreary place if we all had the same opinions and values.)

(maybe next time, Kea….)

おやすみなさい　
[Oyasumi nasai]
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December 12, 2014 11:31pm
Gulag1917

Citizen Run Database Shows Over 1,000 People Killed by Cops in 2014
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/data-shows-1000-people-killed-cops-2014/#WprqLIXExRKsB3C7.99

Killed By Police 2014
http://www.killedbypolice.net
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December 13, 2014 4:26am
Griff

http://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g7094
The Darwin Awards: sex differences in idiotic behaviour
Abstract

Sex differences in risk seeking behavior, emergency hospital admissions, and mortality are well documented. However, little is known about sex differences in idiotic risk taking behavior. This paper reviews the data on winners of the Darwin Award over a 20 year period (1995-2014). Winners of the Darwin Award must eliminate themselves from the gene pool in such an idiotic manner that their action ensures one less idiot will survive. This paper reports a marked sex difference in Darwin Award winners: males are significantly more likely to receive the award than females (P<0.0001). We discuss some of the reasons for this difference.
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December 13, 2014 6:53am

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