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October 26, 2014 4:00pm by David Farrar

US views on cannabis legalisation

This graph from Pew is telling. It shows how much views can shift in just one generation.

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Urban Redneck

Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

Apparently, yes.

Cato is a libertarian institute and part of its agenda is to support the counter-intuitive hypothesis that drug legalization helps reduce the ill effects of drug use. However, Cato is not known to be a professional medical or scientific group, whose agenda is the health and welfare of their clients.

By contrast, there is an online journal called Saude in Portugal published purely by medical doctors. Not so surprisingly, their findings differ from those of Cato, which has ignored the negatives and concludes. “The data show that, judged by virtually every metric, the Portuguese decriminalization framework has been a resounding success.” (Cato Institute article in question, “Drug Decriminalization in Portugal: Lessons for Creating Fair and Successful Drug Policies, by Glenn Greenwald.

As a matter of fact Portugal remains the country with the
highest incidence of IDU-related AIDS and it is the only country recording a
recent increase. 703 newly diagnosed infections, followed from a distance by
Estonia with 191 and Latvia with 108 reported cases. We’re top of the list,
with a shameful 268% aggravation from the next worst case (EMCDDA – November
2007)

Heroine consumption rose 57.5% in recent years

Model for combating drugs is ‘pure disinformation’ – APLD President

At variance with what official agencies have recently disclosed, the problem of drug dependence in Portugal has never been more serious: Between 2001, the year the decriminalization law went into effect, and 2007, continued consumption of narcotics rose, in absolute terms, by 66%.

In this period In this period consumption increased 215% for cocaine, 85% for ecstasy, 57.5% for heroine and 37% for cannabis.. These data are from a report of the Institute of Drugs and Drug Dependence (IDT), published in 2008.

Since decriminalization there has been a 50% increase in drug use among young people between the ages of 20 and 24. On the other hand, the number of persons who have experimented with illicit drugs at least once rose from 7.8% in 2001 to 12% in 2007 (IDT Report of Activities of Nov 2008).

The number of new cases of HIV / AIDS and Hepatitis C in
Portugal recorded among drug users is eight times the average found in other
member states of the European Union. “Portugal keeps on being the country
with the most cases of injected drug related AIDS (85 new cases per one million
of citizens in 2005, while the majority of other EU countries do not exceed 5
cases per million) and the only one registering a recent increase. 36 more
cases per one million of citizens were estimated in 2005 comparatively to 2004,
when only 30 were referred ” (EMCDDA – November 2007).

Since the implementation of decriminalization in Portugal,
the number of homicides related to drug use has increased 40%. “Portugal
was the only European country to show a significant increase in homicides
between 2001 and 2006.” (WDR – World Drug Report, 2009) “With
219 deaths by drug ‘overdose’ a year, Portugal has one of the worst records,
reporting more than one death every two days. Along with Greece, Austria and
Finland, Portugal is one of the countries that recorded an increase in drug
overdose by over 30% in 2005”.(EMCDDA – November 2007)

The number of deceased individuals that tested positive for
drugs (314) at the Portuguese Institute of Forensic Medicine in 2007 registered
a 45% rise climbing fiercely after 2006 (216). This represents the highest
numbers since 2001 – roughly one death per day – therefore reinforcing the
growth of the drug trend since 2005(Portuguese IDT – November 2008). “Behind
Luxembourg, Portugal is the European country with the highest rate of
consistent drug users and IV heroin dependents”. (Portuguese Drug Situation
Annual Report, 2006.)

Between 2001 and 2007, drug use increased 4.2%, while the
percentage of people who have used drugs (at least once) in life, multiplied
from 7.8% to 12%. Cannabis: from 12.4% to 17%. Cocaine: from 1.3% to 2.8%.
Heroine: from 0.7% to 1.1%.Ecstasy: from 0.7% to 1.3%. (Report of Portuguese
IDT 2008) “There remains a notorious growing consumption of cocaine in
Portugal, although not as severe as that which is verifiable in Spain. The
increase in consumption of cocaine is extremely problematic.” (Wolfgang Gotz,
EMCDDA Director – Lisbon, May 2009)

But the bottom line is that legalization means more people on drugs, more addiction, more disease and death and more violence, antisocial behaviour and harm to the rest of society. The campaign to undermine the UN drug laws is being promoted by some very bad people indeed and a large number of useful idiots.

http://gulagbound.com/17547/cato%E2%80%99s-portugal-drug-study-based-on-falsedistorted-government-data/
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October 27, 2014 11:26am
Redbaiter

“and recognizing that over-regulation of peoples lives through harsh drug laws”

Where do they say that?
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October 27, 2014 11:26am
Shawn Herles

“Conservatism does not exist as a measure to advance religious beliefs,”

Actually, that is it’s only true purpose. Unless Western Conservatism is a vehicle for the Gospel in action, it has no reason to exist and is of no use for anything.
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October 27, 2014 11:39am
Shawn Herles

http://www.rightoncrime.com/priority-issues/overcriminalization/

http://www.rightoncrime.com/priority-issues/substance-abuse/
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October 27, 2014 11:41am
Shawn Herles

“The twentieth-century conservative is concerned, first of all, for the regeneration of the spirit and character – with the perennial problem of the inner order of the soul, the restoration of the ethical understanding, and the religious sanction upon which any life worth living is founded. This is conservatism at its highest.”
― Russell Kirk, The Conservative Mind

“There are six canons of conservative thought:

1) Belief in a transcendent order, or body of natural law, which rules society as well as conscience. Political problems, at bottom, are religious and moral problems. A narrow rationality, what Coleridge called the Understanding, cannot of itself satisfy human needs. “Every Tory is a realist,” says Keith Feiling: “he knows that there are great forces in heaven and earth that man’s philosophy cannot plumb or fathom.” True politics is the art of apprehending and applying the Justice which ought to prevail in a community of souls.
― Russell Kirk, The Conservative Mind
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October 27, 2014 11:47am
SGA

Shawn Herles at 11:39 am

“Conservatism does not exist as a measure to advance religious beliefs,”
Actually, that is it’s only true purpose. Unless Western Conservatism is a vehicle for the Gospel in action, it has no reason to exist and is of no use for anything.

Would you please expand on that (just a few sentences), because it’s not self-evident to me.

Add – cross post (thanks)
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October 27, 2014 11:47am
simpleton1

Alcohol is taxed, perhaps should be higher or lower could be debated, so that the so called costs, police, hospital, etc are directly paid for by the consumer.
Drunk and disorderly should be fined to the cost of paying back the costs police/judicial costs, then perhaps a credit if any overpaid alcohol tax, if there is any left over.
Commonsense usage, in regards to drink and drive/work and age, regulations seem to work in.

I do not know how true it is for the use of tobacco, in that it is claimed that the “adjoining hospital bed is also paid for by the smoker” on his “last hospital legs”. If not enough then phase in more taxes, and if the taxes are too high, then lower them.
Again, some commonsense regulations for age, smoking in enclosed/confined spaces and around children.

The principle being, get the costs to people to be more closer to any actual source of that creates problems caused by the actual consumption.

If tax payers have to fund the general costs of these 2 drugs, then rightly or wrongly then they have full claim on how when to even bring on prohibition.

Perhaps this principle of user pays should be costed and charged so that it is transparent, on alcohol and nicotine.
Then it would be worked in how to apply this cost to marijuana. Yes still a lot of debate such as calculating the loss of IQ, educations,motivation etc. that will effect whether users can get jobs, or spend more time on the benefit, or have more psychotic schizophrenic episodes ending up with mental health costs. etc.

So to allow another drug to be freely available, can any costs to taxpayers be properly attributed and funds to cover costs be charged to the “happy demon”, then it is not that whether alcohol or nicotine is better or worse.

This does not mean that it is offset now with current policing, judiciary and jailing costs. Look at the longer term costs, and where they should be directly charged to.
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October 27, 2014 11:50am
Redbaiter

Sheriff at 11:39- neither of those two links support the decriminalization of drugs as far as I can see.

Fail- as usual.

“Unless Western Conservatism is a vehicle for the Gospel in action”

And SGA is correct. Your assertion is just self serving religiously bigoted rubbish and a good example of how faux Conservatives like yourself, really just evangelistic far left Democrats have brought Conservatism into wide disrepute.
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October 27, 2014 12:02pm
Shawn Herles

“Sheriff at 11:39- neither of those two links support the decriminalization of drugs as far as I can see.”

Given that it is one of the stated principles of the group, that is interesting. Perhaps reading anything more than simplistic slogans is difficult for you in some way?

“Your assertion is just self serving religiously bigoted rubbish”

It is the central assertion of Western conservatism from Burke to Kirk. That you think otherwise is a good example that your “conservatism” is just secular authoritarianism with no conservative foundation.

Did Burke, Kirk, or any other major Conservative voice for the last three hundred years bring conservatism into disrepute for stating the central importance of Christianity to Western Conservatism?

No.

Just because you Red think that all major conservative voices are rubbish, and you alone, Russell Fletcher of Tauranga, are right, only proves that your unhinged ranting and promotion of Asian authoritarianism has nothing to do with real Western conservatism.
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October 27, 2014 1:01pm
Redbaiter

“Given that it is one of the stated principles of the group, that is interesting.”

Where is it stated? So far in a multitude of links you’ve yet to reference it.

“Just because you Red think that all major conservative voices are rubbish,”

You lie once again about what other people think.

When are you going to present arguments that address the issue rather than continually make up shit about what other people think?

I’ll tell you.

Never. You can’t stop yourself.

You’re just a rank troll who has nothing but a pathetic braindead litany of lies about other people and what they believe.
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October 27, 2014 1:05pm
Shawn Herles

“You lie once again about what other people think.”

I have posted quotes from the founder of modern Conservatism on the issue. How is direct quoting lying?

“When are you going to present arguments that address the issue”

I have, repeatedly today. You just don’t have the intelligence, knowledge, or genuine conservative principles to counter them thus your hilarious flailing about with childish accusations of lying and trolling. And every time you make such an accusation, you are only admitting to failure and defeat.

Again. 🙂
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October 27, 2014 1:18pm
Shawn Herles

Civilization Without Religion? Russell Kirk.

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles/KirkCivilization.php?/articles/KirkCivilization.htm
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October 27, 2014 1:19pm
Shawn Herles

The Conservative Case for Legalizing Pot.

http://www.newsweek.com/conservative-case-legalizing-pot-74129
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October 27, 2014 1:23pm
Shawn Herles

Five Conservatives That Unexpectedly Support Marijuana Reform

http://marijuana.com/news/2014/06/five-conservatives-that-unexpectedly-support-marijuana-reform/

Notable conservatives who support legalizing marijuana

http://www.dailypaul.com/139538/notable-conservatives-who-support-legalizing-marijuana
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October 27, 2014 1:25pm
Shawn Herles

Legalising drugs would be the perfect Tory policy: It would save money, aid global security and be tough on crime. What could appeal to Conservatives more?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/19/legalising-drugs-logical-tory-step
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October 27, 2014 1:26pm
Griff

But Shawn redbaiter never ever ever looses he is the fuhrer of conservatism in New Zealand.

Just because Singapore his fantasy island for conservative democracy isn’t a democracy.

That just proves that democracy is a commie plot invented by prog hippy cultural Marxists dont ya know.
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October 27, 2014 1:29pm
Redbaiter

“Just because you Red think that all major conservative voices are rubbish,”

This is a lie, made up by a troll who can find no other way to garner responses to his idiot ravings.

“Given that it is one of the stated principles of the group, that is interesting.”

Where is it stated? So far in a multitude of links you’ve yet to reference it.

You have nothing but lies, false assertions and trolling.
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October 27, 2014 1:30pm
Redbaiter

Newsweek, Ron Paul and The Guardian- all well known repositories of Conservative thought.

Thanks for the laugh troll.

(Evangelistic Democrat troll to be more precise.)
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October 27, 2014 1:54pm
Griff

wingnuttery causes the victim to refuse to accept any source of information that doesn’t back up their prejudices (essentially, wingnuts are almost always authoritarian as well as being politically right-wing). Constant gibbering about the “liberal media” as well as a slavish devotion to cognitive dissonance, conspiracy theories,, psychological projection,

This is a lie, made up by a troll who can find no other way to garner responses to his idiot ravings.

Discuss in less then 500 words the above quote in reference to wingnuttery.
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October 27, 2014 1:56pm
nasska

We may have to wait for a response Griff…..he’s probably down at the pub for his afternoon top up. 🙂
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October 27, 2014 3:09pm
Mike

Legalize? It should be bumped up to Class A status. I invite anyone of you to walk down one of the major city streets on a saturday night and see for yourself all the havoc and fighting that these potheads engage in. It makes them very aggressive and violent. I am happy with something that mellows and relaxes people, but this just doesn’t seem to be it. No thanks.
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October 27, 2014 3:12pm
MT_Tinman

nasska (11,539 comments) says:
October 27th, 2014 at 3:09 pm

We may have to wait for a response Griff…..he’s probably down at the pub for his afternoon top up. 🙂

The pub would be no good for that – it’d take a full course of (no doubt prescription) meds to get that sort of perspective.
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October 27, 2014 4:14pm
MT_Tinman

Mike, I’ve never yet met a pot-head with the energy to get off his arse for food, drink or socialising let alone fight on a Saturday night.
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October 27, 2014 4:17pm
Shawn Herles

A CONSERVATIVE ARGUMENT AGAINST THE “WAR ON DRUGS”

http://www.classicalvalues.com/archives/2006/05/a_conservative.html

The Right & the Drug War: Conservatives are the last prohibitionists, but that’s changing.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-right-the-drug-war/
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October 27, 2014 4:38pm
Shawn Herles

“Newsweek, Ron Paul and The Guardian- all well known repositories of Conservative thought.”

Amongst the conservatives I have either quoted on this or another issue, or pointed out are pro-decriminalization or reform, have been:

Russell Kirk.

William F. Buckley, Jr.

Milton Friedman.

Tom Tancredo

Grover Norquist

Pat Robertson

Thomas Sowell

Glenn Beck

and, for the trump card,

Sarah Palin:

“”If we’re talking about pot, I’m not for the legalization of pot, because I think that would just encourage our young people to think that it was OK to go ahead and use it and I’m not an advocate for that.

However, I think we need to prioritize our law enforcement efforts. And if somebody is going to smoke a joint in their house and not do anybody else any harm, then perhaps there are other things our cops should be looking at to engage in and clean up some of the other problems we have in society that are appropriate for law enforcement to do and not concentrate on such a, relatively speaking, minimal problem that we have in the country.”

http://stopthedrugwar.org/speakeasy/2010/jun/16/ron_paul_and_sarah_palin_discuss

So, according to Redbaiter, I am an Evangelical Democrat, amongst other things, because I am quoting people like Thomas Sowell, Russell Kirk, Pat Robertson, Glenn Beck, Thomas Tancredo, and Sarah Palin!

Oooooook! 🙂

Nooo, Baity alone is the One True Uber-Conservative with the One True Path(tm)! What do people like Kirk or Sowell know about his great twenty years of victory over the forces of the global Left? What does Russell Kirk know about the time he.. um… you know…did that thing, and then…ummm, yeah well, he’ll get around to telling us someday. 😉
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October 27, 2014 4:59pm
Shawn Herles

Redbaiter really should come with his own theme music. The Imperial March from Star Wars as a general rule, with the theme from the Twilight Zone for some of his whackier claims! 🙂
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October 27, 2014 5:06pm
Redbaiter

“Amongst the conservatives I have either quoted on this or another issue,”

What does it matter who the hell you have quoted on other issues troll. In the comment referred to you quoted Newsweek, Ron Paul and The Guardian and none of them are sources any self respecting Conservative would get their ideas from.

http://truebluenz.com/2011/10/15/ron-pauls-fake-eyebrow/

As for Sarah Palin, when she says this then how the hell can you say she agrees with you? Unless you’re demented.

“If we’re talking about pot, I’m not for the legalization of pot,”

EOS.

Troll.

Time wasting tedious troll.
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October 27, 2014 5:25pm
Redbaiter

“We may have to wait for a response Griff….”

What’s to respond to Mr. Smug?

Just the same old politically incoherent trolling nonsense that characterises 95% of what Grief posts here.
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October 27, 2014 5:38pm
Redbaiter

Mark Levin-

I have no idea what philosophy Glenn Beck is promoting. And neither does he. It’s incoherent. One day it’s populist, the next it’s libertarian bordering on anarchy, next it’s conservative but not really, etc. And to what end? I believe he has announced that he is no longer going to endorse candidates because our problems are bigger than politics. Well, of course, our problems are not easily dissected into categories, but to reject politics is to reject the manner in which we try to organize ourselves. [..]

Finally, Beck is fond of congratulating himself for being the only or the first host to criticize George Bush’s spending. This is demonstrably false. … And as someone who fought liberal Republicans in the trenches when campaigning for Reagan in 1976 and 1980, I don’t need lectures from Beck, who was nowhere to be found, about big-spending Republicans.
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October 27, 2014 5:39pm
Griff

In the comment referred to you quoted Newsweek, Ron Paul and The Guardian and none of them are sources any self respecting Conservative would get their ideas from.

Constant gibbering about the “liberal media”
😆
wussel try to keep up matey

Here is a lovey conservative family demonstrating responsible drunken brawling
palin-todd-palin-man-father-son-fight-sarah-palin-bristol-palin-gay-comments-audio-interview#.VE3Wo2dfb_
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October 27, 2014 6:22pm
nasska

The wafflings of a few of the pseudo-conservatives here reminds me of the story of “Dame Partington & her mop”, which is used to illustrate stubborn & futile opposition to the inevitable….particularly to economic, political or social reform.

….”The expression is derived from English newspaper stories of November 1824 which tell of a woman who used only a mop in attempting to rid her nearly inundated seaside home of water during a raging storm. The woman eventually gave up her struggle and sought safety elsewhere. In October 1831, Rev. Sydney Smith compared the rejection of a reform bill by the House of Lords to the plight of Dame Partington.”…..

The spirit lives on today personified by the slowly rotting corpse of Conservatism. 🙂
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October 27, 2014 6:55pm
Redbaiter

If any ideology has a rotting corpse Mr Smug, it is liberalism.

Must be painful for a Princess Diana clone like you Nasska to become aware that you’re bordering on the unfashionable.

(Poor old Mr. Smug, so narrow of mind he has been looking up Conservatism on The Free Dictionary.)
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October 27, 2014 7:02pm
Shawn Herles

So far Red you have failed to counter one argument presented by any conservative quoted here, or any argument linked to, from a wide variety of sources. All you can do is flail about and call names. Which only proves you have no argument to make. Every time you say “troll” or dismiss real conservatives with weak ass excuses about the source, you admit defeat and failure.

I’m happy to be backed by real Western conservative voices. You can keep being a shill for Lee Kuan Yew’s Asian authoritarianism. Although, exactly how that equates with your claim to be a defender of the West is anyone’s guess. 🙂
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October 27, 2014 7:05pm
Shawn Herles

Just for Red. What real Conservatism looks like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_6Tvckseww
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October 27, 2014 7:07pm
nasska

You & your ilk usually justify conservatism by pointing out what you see as change for change’s sake Baity. In fact no one knows for certain whether a change is for good or bad until society takes a risk & gives it a trial run.

If it weren’t for progs you’d be dressed in untanned animal skins while greasing the axles of your dray with warm mutton fat. 🙂
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October 27, 2014 7:09pm
Redbaiter

“I’m happy to be backed by real Western conservative voices. ”

Except you’re not troll.

You claimed Sarah Palin supported you. A trump card you called it.

Except she does not support you. In fact you’re delusional on the matter.

You are also clearly confused about who are Conservatives and who are not. Quoting Ron Paul, Newsweek and The Guardian, or even Glenn Beck, demonstrates exactly how clueless you are.

You really need to come clean on your main objective, to troll and that your true political position is that of an evangelistic southern Democrat.

Honesty is always the best policy.
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October 27, 2014 7:11pm
Redbaiter

“If it weren’t for progs you’d be dressed in untanned animal skins while greasing the axles of your dray with warm mutton fat. “

I know that is probably what you think Mr. Smug and it typifies your abject ignorance of Conservatism and explains why anything you might write on the issue comes from other sources.

You’re narrow as well as ignorant. But what more could you expect from someone living a lifetime in some hillbilly backwater on the govt tit and who regards Princess Diana as the font of all political wisdom.
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October 27, 2014 7:14pm
big bruv

“But what more could you expect from someone living a lifetime in some hillbilly backwater on the govt tit?”

You talking about Sarah Palin again?
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October 27, 2014 7:16pm
nasska

Now hang on a minute Baity. How would mineral lubricants or advances in clothing ever occur under a truly conservative regime?

How would a conservative ever allow the introduction of anything new? You represent the naysayers who worship the old yet condemn the novel out of hand.
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October 27, 2014 7:20pm
Redbaiter

I’ve said before Mr Smug, I don’t respond to interrogations from ignorant braindead trolls and I’m certainly not about to change that policy for you.

That aside, your questions are so lame they show you really don’t have the faintest clue.
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October 27, 2014 7:23pm
nasska

In other words you don’t have an answer. 🙂
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October 27, 2014 7:25pm
Redbaiter

I don’t ever have answers for questions that are predicated on ignorance and dull stupidity.

Nor would you if you had any intelligence at all.
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October 27, 2014 7:27pm
Scott

Shawn, I am disappointed with the way you have hijacked this thread to have another running battle with redbaiter. This is an important topic and to have another battle with reddy when you probably agree on more than you disagree with each other seems to be dividing the front against the galloping liberalism and nihilism that our opponents manifest at every opportunity.

I am disappointed in you also caving in to liberal thought on cannibas.

Unfortunately there are people who say they are conservative and then say they are ok about legal marijuana and have no problems with gay marriage. Basically you cannot be a conservative and agree with liberal positions on matters like drugs and homosexuality.
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October 27, 2014 8:02pm
stephieboy

Redbaiter , was the abolition of prohibition in the US and it’s seriously diminished support here an example of galloping liberalism and nihilism.?

The statute for hanging drawing and quartering for Treason in the UK was abolished in 1809 . Going by your “reasoning ” you would want that reinstated as well .?

Correct.?
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October 27, 2014 8:16pm
Redbaiter

I sometimes think that if one ever had the opportunity to discuss politics with the citizens of that totalitarian dictatorship Cuba you might actually find more breadth and depth of political knowledge than in NZ. The single dimension politics so often on show here demonstrates a desperately truncated political spectrum.
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October 27, 2014 8:26pm
nasska

Must be a bugger Scott. Sitting there, just knowing deep down in your tummy what is good for all of us only to have the heathen unwashed suggest that you peddle your wares elsewhere.

The sheer ingratitude. 🙂
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October 27, 2014 8:31pm
SGA

Scott at 8:02 pm

Unfortunately there are people who say they are conservative and then say they are ok about legal marijuana and have no problems with gay marriage. Basically you cannot be a conservative and agree with liberal positions on matters like drugs and homosexuality.

Or maybe people are just a bit more complicated than you think and don’t fit neatly into the shoe boxes that others define.
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October 27, 2014 8:31pm
Gulag1917

Help-seeking for drug use
In New Zealand, we are aware that people want help with reducing their alcohol and drug use. The 2007/2008 New Zealand Alcohol and Drug Use Survey reported that almost 5% (4.5%) of people who had ever used drugs had received help to reduce their drug use at some point in their lifetime, equating to about 58,700 people in New Zealand.
http://www.drugfoundation.org.nz/drug-information/drugs-in-new-zealand
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October 28, 2014 12:03am
SPC

Step 1.

Medical marijuana by prescription. Legal possession for use.

Step 2

It should be a fine (but no conviction) for possession for personal use of marijuana, ecstasy and its successor party pill (all reduce binge drinking when and where available and are preferable to the stuff recently sold here legally) where there is no authorised seller/supply.

Step 3.

Legalise supply of tested product to authorised users (for whom possession for use is legal if it is via sales off their ration card), the marijuana supplied being low in THC – via registered sellers.

The goal being to return use to lower THC content marijuana (higher THC product is akin to binging) and dance/music event parties instead of binge drinking.

The issue to determine a balance to is equality of citizens before the law and health related factor to marijuana use – as to the age of the user.

Maybe it is graduated ration card use levels linked to age.
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October 28, 2014 1:18am
Griff

Higher thc means you smoke less.
We used to roll joints now everyone mostly uses small pipes .
High potency also means you get less harm from smoking by products.
High thc is just like drinking spirits you dont drink straight whiskey like beer do you.
As to ration cards why bother just restrict the purchase or legal possession amount at any time to say a 5gramme bag.
legal possession after age 21 offense to sell to a minor. Illegal for minors to be in possession resulting in drug harm intervention course. Responsible adults should have the right to use cannabis or other drugs providing they are less harmful than alcohol. All drugs should be taxed to recover the true costs they present to society .
Or ban all drugs including alcohol. To be a just society if the law accepts the harm from one it must also accept harm from the lessor harmful substances.
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October 28, 2014 7:03am
Inthisdress

Pete by all means have that conversation, within it, consider the impact on Auckland from Asia interest if Cannabis was legalised here. Decriminalisation has not been a signal success elsewhere, I’d argue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_the_Netherlands

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ceciliarodriguez/2014/05/13/why-pot-is-losing-its-lustre-in-the-netherlands/

http://themonkeycage.org/2012/11/08/legalizing-marijuana-some-lessons-from-the-netherlands/

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2010/09/legalizing-marijuana-why-citizens-should-just-say-no

I’m not anti-cannabis, but I am opposed to the notion that it is a safer, less addictive alternative to alcohol, speaking from personal experience I’ve only smoked it once, though.

Unfortunately that ‘once’ commenced in 1979 and didn’t stop until 1999…. But of needless to say, I never smoked at dusk.

The argument that we should ban alcohol and tobacco is erroneous, as citing their dangers is not an argument for introducing access to yet another potentially harmful substance to our youngsters.
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October 28, 2014 10:47am
SPC

Griff,

1. higher THC content supply might mean you smoke less, and it might mean you get more THC each time you use marijuana. And the issue is build of THC in the system

2. A ration card system is based around limiting THC build up.

People could buy a 5 gramme bag 5 times a day and 35 times a week if there was no ration card system.

3. A ration card system naturally reduces the risk of tar build up from smoking. By limiting the number of times it is used each week.

4. Maybe there could be a restriction to lower content THC marijuana for those under 30. And allowing higher THC content product to those over 30 – but still via the ration card to hold down THC build up that would occur from regular use otherwise.

5. Yes possession by those under the age for a ration card should result in drug education courses and so should a high level of THC in the system if someone is over using – beyond ration card allowed levels.
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October 28, 2014 9:38pm
SPC

Inthisdress, equivalence is making supply of and possession of alcohol and tobacco illegal or enabling lawful access to and use of marijuana. Consistency is always a reasonable position to argue.

Ironically few raise the issue of ecstasy and another party pill which is also illegal despite being safer to use than tobacco, alcohol or marijuana.

The continued use of alcohol and tobacco once starting is no less prevalent than for marijuana, more likely in fact given the problems faced by alcoholics (AA) and the fact that the nicotine in the tobacco is addictive. People more easily use marijuana on a very occasional basis. Of course problematic use of marijuana, whether amongst the young or heavy users is no less a problem than binge drinking and alcoholism.

But if when introducing legal supply and use of marijuana these two issues are dealt with, there is no longer reasonable objection to being consistent.

PS Asian interest … What do you mean? There is no imported product now. And we should license growers for supply to the legal market.
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October 28, 2014 9:52pm
Griff

I’m not anti-cannabis, but I am opposed to the notion that it is a safer, less addictive alternative to alcohol, speaking from personal experience I’ve only smoked it once, though.

Read the effect of stopping alcohol for an addict and compare to your own symptoms of stopping pot
One is an annoyance that may include head aches and an unstable mood for a few days and often social pressure and the habit of relaxing with a joint is the only temptation to resume .
The other may result in physical or mental illness or even death and should be only attempted under the supervision of a doctor .

I have spend periods when I smoked huge quantities of pot for months or years at a time and other times when I stopped totally for periods of up to four years. This has always been a simple process of choice and stopping dead if I chose has never been an issue.
I would not consider my self to ever have been physically addicted to cannabis.
Alcohol Is not something I have ever used excessively due to growing up with an alcoholic parent and always knowing the risks and effects .
I have know of many alcoholics and all have huge difficulty in stopping for more than a few days. Ask any ex alcoholic and they will tell you they are forever one drink away from resuming the addiction.
Most of the alcoholics I have known have had disruption to their life’s due to their drinking and their addiction has been been hugely detrimental to those around them.
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October 28, 2014 10:19pm
belledejour

Candies and Cookies appeal to the young? so what? RTDs and Sweet liquers do too, I dare say. Just keep them all out of reach of those under 18. Simple. I support decriminalization but oppose pot being ingested in any way by those under 18. Why? evidence says it’s harmful to young brains.
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October 29, 2014 12:50pm

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