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October 28, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 28 October 2014

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Rowan

No wounds Stupidboy
And yeah thanks for stating the obvious! How long did it take you to work that one out?
Troll
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October 28, 2014 3:09pm
Ryan Sproull

‘Anarchism is the libertarian (non-statist) branch of socialist thought‘

Socialist with a small ‘s’ perhaps. It is certainly at the opposite end of the spectrum from Socialism.

It is at the opposite end of the libertarian-authoritarian spectrum from State Socialism. But it is at the socialist end of the socialist-capitalist spectrum.

Anarcho-Capitalism is a more descriptive and useful term.

“Anarcho-Capitalism” is a very recently invented term, and has little in common with anarchism.

Anarchist and Socialist ideas were indeed floated together back in the 19th century. Sadly the Socialists won that contest and the brutual, crushing and murderous statism of the 20th century was the result.

Anarchist socialism and Marxist socialism were indeed floated together back in the 19th century. Sadly, the Marxists won that contest.
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October 28, 2014 3:15pm
waikatogirl

Maggy says
Wallace Chapman is the biggest wrist wringing wimp that graces our airwaves.

Couldn’t agree more. talk about a leftie apologist, another do as I say, not as I do Wellington liberal. I too turned him off. Can’t believe he got the RadioLive show, so glad he went to Red Radio.
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October 28, 2014 3:16pm
alloytoo

@Albert_Ross

Debate at whaleoil?

As long as you don’t disagree with Slater (or worse Pete the Mod)
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October 28, 2014 3:17pm
Albert_Ross

Redbaiter, I won’t claim to have read every contribution to every debate on Whaleoil, but I certainly don’t recognize from the debates I have looked through “a series of commenters expressing their undying love and gratitude for Whale and his sycophant Pete”. Perhaps you could point to an example?
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October 28, 2014 3:25pm
Redbaiter

I’m sorry Albert, I don’t have the time to look right now. Maybe later, but there was one such thread that discussed that very issue here on GD not so long ago. Maybe some other reader can recall that- where some Whale commenter wrote this disgustingly obsequious comment in response to some post on moderation policies.

And OK, to be objective, your criticism of Kiwiblog to some extent is fair enough, and to be truthful I share your concerns, and admit to a pang of real regret most times I post a response to some idiot troll bent on taking a thread off topic somewhere.

If it was up to me, I would spend a month here wiping every troll who used this forum mainly to chat about nonsense with their likewise idiot mates. Its a forum for political discussion borne from David Farrar’s initial efforts on usenet, and I wince when I see so many abusing it as some teenage chat forum. Posting jokes here for example. FFS…!! Morons.

However even with that taken in to account, I’d not want to participate at Whaleoil, even if I was permitted. They’re far too intolerant of opposing opinion, but worse are not beyond the cowardly smearing of people they disagree with with lies and false allegations. Fuck em. They’re lowlife of the first order.
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October 28, 2014 3:38pm
Redbaiter

Actually Albert, funny you should raise this at this time too, for just last night I glanced at GD to see this excellent comment from Calendar Girl.

Note how it stands out amongst the dross that surrounds it? Unusual to see a comment of that worth on GD at that time of night. Its usually so dominated by Nasska and his band of worthless prog trolls as to be unreadable to anyone with a brain.
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October 28, 2014 3:51pm
Griff

Redbaiter you are half the problem on here at the moment
as to

However even with that taken in to account, I’d not want to participate at Whaleoil, even if I was permitted. They’re far too intolerant of opposing opinion

Redbaiter on your own blog you will not allow any one to comment except those who agree with you .

, but worse are not beyond the cowardly smearing of people they disagree with with lies and false allegations. Fuck em. They’re lowlife of the first order.

You are well known to accuse any one who disagrees with you as a coward, prog, hippy, marxist or any other insult that you can think of. This has been the case since before I started commenting on kb in fact many years ago someone posted a redbaiter comment generator with such meaningless insults to parody your abusive style.

If it was up to me, I would spend a month here wiping every troll who used this forum mainly to chat about nonsense with their likewise idiot mates. Its a forum for political discussion borne from David Farrar’s initial efforts on usenet, and I wince when I see so many abusing it as some teenage chat forum. Posting jokes here for example. FFS…!! Morons.

The moron is you
This is Kiwiblog fomenting happy mischief the personal blog of dpf he makes the rules and decides on appropriate content
Not true blue nz a sycophantic circle jerk for confused authoritarian wingnuts wanking each other
You have no right to attempt to enforce your views on this blog and its about time you kept your promise and fucked off back to your pathetic space for deluded wingnuts .
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October 28, 2014 4:07pm
Manolo

Talking about “deluded wingnuts”: Griff, are you still a firm believer in AGW and Al Gore’s doom & gloom gospel?
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October 28, 2014 4:14pm
Redbaiter

Careful Manolo, you’ll set him off, and he’ll be quoting furiously from “An Inconvenient Truth” the way Sheriff Shawn quotes the scriptures.

Albert- ouch, regret.
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October 28, 2014 4:20pm
Griff

As posted often Al Gore is your hero for wanking over manolo
I firmly believe that every major scientific body in the world considers man made climate change a threat to humanity.
As does the national government in New Zealand.
If you can find the name of one reputable scientific body that disagrees with AGW please post it.
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October 28, 2014 4:23pm
Nukuleka

Albert_Ross: I think you’ll find that as the day goes on the KB posters get more and more into the cooking sherry and the ‘debate’ becomes more and more rancorous. The language and vitriol descends into The Standard-type nastiness. Over on WO Cameron Slater is far more of a loose canon than DPF but DPF if far more hands-off with his commentators. Slater has his newly-appointed guard dog Pete on patrol to deter and ban the less desirable.

Many of the folk inhabiting these blogs are reminiscent of the insomniacal nutters that frequent night-time talkback.
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October 28, 2014 4:30pm
Manolo

Many of the folk inhabiting these blogs are reminiscent of the insomniacal nutters that frequent night-time talkback

You are not referring to Griff, are you? 😀
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October 28, 2014 4:36pm
Redbaiter

Public says climate change not important issue.

Just the obsession of a few die hard cranks.

http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/lji_c-2sqkwhdfcnpbaqmq.png
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October 28, 2014 4:38pm
Paulus

Wallace Chapman was chosen for his left wing views to follow the other git ??? who was also very left wing.
That’s RNZ.
Get rid of them and get some balance – but for RNZ that is not possible.
They are going to continue to denigrate the National Party and John Key right up to the next election – they cannot accept that the public did not do what they wanted.
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October 28, 2014 4:44pm
Maggy Wassilieff

@ Waikatogirl…3:16pm

Maggy did not say “Wallace Chapman is the biggest wrist wringing wimp that graces our airwaves.”

I don’t do personal abuse.
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October 28, 2014 4:49pm
Griff

😆
Public says climate change not important issue.
But red lies that is not what your link says at all.

Americans who said President Obama and Congress should make developing sources of clean energy a high priority increased 11 points, to 71 percent, while those who said that global warming should be a high priority rose six points, to 44 percent. In a seven-point increase since January, 69 percent of Americans said that the United States should make a large or medium-scale effort to reduce global warming even if it incurs large or moderate economic costs.

Current public support for specific policy options
87% support funding more research into renewable energy sources (+2)
83% support tax rebates for people who buy fuel-efficient vehicles and solar panels (+1)
77% support regulating carbon dioxide as a pollutant (+6)
65% support signing an international treaty that requires the United States to cut its emissions of carbon dioxide 90 percent by the year 2050 (+4)
61% support requiring electric utilities to produce at least 20 percent of their electricity from renewable energy sources, even if it cost the average household an extra $100 per year (+2)

– See more at: http://environment.yale.edu/climate-communication/article/american-opinion-on-climate-change-warms-up#sthash.EggPHase.dpuf
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October 28, 2014 4:49pm
Lucia Maria

From Time Ukraine’s Election Marks a Historic Break With Russia and its Soviet Past

With more than half the votes counted in the country’s parliamentary ballot, an unprecedented national consensus has emerged in support of a lasting break with Moscow and a turn toward European integration

….one of the milestones the country had crossed: Ukraine’s Communist Party, a political holdover from the nation’s Soviet past that had always championed close ties with Russia, had failed to win a single parliamentary seat

….For the first time since the Russian revolution of 1917 swept across Ukraine and turned it into a Soviet satellite, there would be no Communists in the nation’s parliament.

Their defeat, though largely symbolic, epitomized the transformation of Ukraine that began with this year’s revolution and, in many respects, ended with the ballot on Sunday. If the Communists and other pro-Russian parties had enormous influence in Ukraine before the uprising and a firm base of support in the eastern half of the country, they are now all but irrelevant. The pro-Western leaders of the revolution, by contrast, saw a resounding victory over the weekend for their agenda of European integration. “More than three quarters of voters who cast their ballots showed firm and irreversible support for Ukraine’s course toward Europe,” Poroshenko said in his televised address.

So, Ukraine has chosen to get closer to Europe. Will she be allowed to break free from Russia? Stay tuned …
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October 28, 2014 4:51pm
waikatogirl

Sorry Maggie, copied it from your post. Must have mis-read the context.

He is a left wing apologist though, and I prefer not to waste my time listening to him 😉
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October 28, 2014 5:03pm
waikatogirl

Maggy
Went back and found the line. It was this guy who said the line about Wallace Chapman.

The only red for me is that of Manchester United (61 comments) says:
October 28th, 2014 at 10:49 am

Oops 😉
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October 28, 2014 5:09pm
Ryan Sproull

I’ve met plenty of nice people, but Wallace is probably the nicest person I’ve ever met.
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October 28, 2014 5:15pm
stephieboy

waikatogirl and Maggy, anyoneyou disagree with ,even mildly ,is immediately demonized and smeared as a leftist .!
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October 28, 2014 5:24pm
Maggy Wassilieff

@ stephieboy 5:24pm

surely you overestimate my ability to influence anyone.
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October 28, 2014 5:41pm
itstricky

Well, my guess would be that you don’t grasp that oil being a non-renewable resource is not in itself any objection whatsoever.

Why not, wat?
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October 28, 2014 5:51pm
Lucia Maria

Bizarre!

From the Independent : Survey finds 2 per cent of Anglican priests are not believers

As a prerequisite for the job of being a Church of England priest, it would seem not unreasonable to expect a belief in God to be fairly essential.

But this is not the case, according to a poll of Anglican clergy which found that as many as 16 per cent are unclear about God and two per cent think it is no more than a human construct.

It is 30 years since David Jenkins, then the Bishop of Durham, caused controversy by casting doubt on the resurrection, but it appears that such unorthodox views are widespread amongst Britain’s priests.

In addition to those who describe God as a human creation, the YouGov poll found that three per cent believe there is some sort of spirit or life force and 9 per cent argue it is impossible to imagine what God is like.

Clergy were significantly more likely to hold unorthodox beliefs the older they were and the longer they had been in the ministry. Nearly 90 per cent of those ordained since 2011 believe in God compared with only 72 per cent of those who became priests in the 1960s, the research discovered.

I would hope there wouldn’t be similar results with Catholic priests.
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October 28, 2014 5:58pm
Ryan Sproull

Put it this way, Lucia. If your belief in God disappeared, or your beliefs about God changed radically, 25 years into your career as a priest, are you really likely to quit and retrain as a web developer?
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October 28, 2014 6:04pm
nasska

….”I would hope there wouldn’t be similar results with Catholic priests”….

This throws up a bit of a quandary Lucia. You could be confessing your sins to someone who doesn’t have a open line to the Almighty.

Those circuits on your knees around the church banging your head on the grass every five metres might not appear on the celestial time sheet & your soul will probably be discarded into the reject bin along with us unbelievers.

Oh, the humanity of it all! 🙂
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October 28, 2014 6:14pm
Albert_Ross

I was thinking, for example, of this article. Most of the comments that follow it disagree with Cameron’s view as to what the Government is really up to in its proposals to change the way in which state housing is provided. They do so in an informed and reasoned way and without descending to personal abuse.

http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/10/bill-englishs-state-housing-reform-privatisation-stealth/

Or this one

http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/10/50000-rates-bill-seems-bad/

Certainly, the most recent post (cows4me) goes off on an abusive rant, giving credence to the theory that the tone deteriorates later in the day as contributors get further into the medicinal sherry. But the others are clear, literate, non-abusive and genuinely add to the reader’s understanding of the case.
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October 28, 2014 6:15pm
Lucia Maria

Ryan,

Catholic priests normally have degrees in theology (quite a few have more than that), so retraining wouldn’t be difficult for most of them. I don’t know about Anglican priests, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a similar educational level among them.

They wouldn’t have to become web-developers, there’d be heaps of other jobs out there they could do.

Personally, if I was doing something that required a core belief and I lost that core belief, I’d move on.
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October 28, 2014 6:16pm
big bruv

“They wouldn’t have to become web-developers, there’d be heaps of other jobs out there they could do.”

Just keep them miles away from any children.
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October 28, 2014 6:17pm
Lucia Maria

Nasska,

… You could be confessing your sins to someone who doesn’t have a open line to the Almighty…

I have experienced this, a priest whose beliefs I found highly suspect. But his confession was efficacious. I know, because I confessed something I’d been putting off for months (a number of years ago now), and he wouldn’t even let me finish what I was trying to confess, telling me it wasn’t a sin and not to let the Church tell me what to do. Afterwards, not being sure I’d even had a valid confession, I went to another priest two days later. Based on how much I’d dithered going at all initially, that two days later wouldn’t have been possible if the first was wasn’t valid – if that makes sense.

I learned later that the Church makes up for the deficits of her members. In a mysterious way. So, we’re covered!
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October 28, 2014 6:21pm
Inandout

Alloytoo: Cameron is urging more people to comment on General Debate. If Pete hadn’t dispensed with so many commenters he may get a better number; he is offering another amnesty today so I hope he doesn’t get killed in the rush.
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October 28, 2014 6:23pm
nasska

…” if that makes sense.”….

Regrettably, not a lot Lucia.

Just like the rest of the hocus-pocus. 🙂
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October 28, 2014 6:23pm
Ryan Sproull

Personally, if I was doing something that required a core belief and I lost that core belief, I’d move on.

I suspect that, in those cases, the priests have discovered that (for them) the core part of priesthood is not a belief in God. Maybe it’s their desire to care for and counsel people. Maybe they like the power. Etc. Who knows?
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October 28, 2014 6:25pm
nasska

….” Maybe it’s their desire to care for and counsel people. Maybe they like the power.”….

Maybe it’s the choirboys’ bottoms. 🙂
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October 28, 2014 6:34pm
Lucia Maria

Nasska,

Fair enough.

Ryan,

You could be right, the core belief for them could be different. It’s that for most people (and it even states it in the introduction to the article) that they’d think believing in God would be a prerequisite and even an on going requirement.
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October 28, 2014 6:39pm
Lucia Maria

Just keep them miles away from any children.

Actually, for once I agree with you Big Bruv. I’d be far more worried for children near priests that have lost their faith than those who have not.
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October 28, 2014 6:42pm
Ryan Sproull

You could be right, the core belief for them could be different. It’s that for most people (and it even states it in the introduction to the article) that they’d think believing in God would be a prerequisite and even an on going requirement.

Additionally, what’s so bad about God being a human construct? Why should the priests believing that God is a human construct stop them from worshipping Him?
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October 28, 2014 6:44pm
Scott Chris

but Wallace is probably the nicest person I’ve ever met.

Maybe he is nice, but he’s an average journalist at best. Sainsbury (who replaced him) is a vast improvement.
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October 28, 2014 6:45pm
Reid

Here’s something you don’t read everyday…

http://connecticut.cbslocal.com/2014/10/27/naked-man-accused-of-raping-pit-bull-in-neighbors-yard-says-isis-sent-him/

Apparently, it was a rescue pitbull, as well…
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October 28, 2014 6:46pm
nasska

At least he’s not gay Reid…..the pit bull was a bitch. 🙂
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October 28, 2014 6:49pm
Scott Chris

Lucia Maria (2,434 comments) says:
October 28th, 2014 at 5:58 pm
Bizarre!

It wouldn’t surprise me if the Pope were found to have lost his faith.
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October 28, 2014 6:49pm
dad4justice

Lucia agrees with the biggest bigot on here and Snott Wris says the Pope has no faith. And a fag shags a pit bull. God help us all 🙂
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October 28, 2014 6:52pm
SGA

Lucia Maria at 5:58 pm

Bizarre!
From the Independent : Survey finds 2 per cent of Anglican priests are not believers
I would hope there wouldn’t be similar results with Catholic priests.

You might be surprised. A friend of mine trained as a priest for a while, and from conversations with him (talking about priests and the priesthood generally), there are probably a few around. Anecdotal evidence only, so treat with a certain caution.
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October 28, 2014 6:53pm
Reid

At least he’s not gay Reid…..the pit bull was a bitch.

She must have been nasska since her owner kept her on an 800 pound tow chain.

I just hope the usual suspects don’t suddenly hallucinate ISIS really did send him and therefore, in their minds, every single Muslim just can’t wait to do the same thing to their bitches as well.

That would send GD to the dogs, wouldn’t it.
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October 28, 2014 6:54pm
Lucia Maria

Ryan,

My first reaction to your comment was, What? Without the ‘t’ and a look of semi-incomprehension. But then I thought about it.

I don’t want to speak for everyone, but if it were me, I couldn’t worship a human construct. It would be a lie. It wouldn’t be real. If God was not real, then I’d be wasting my time. I might as well live until I die rather than wasting my time worshiping an imaginary being.

And if we are talking about a priest doing that, then he’d be picked up as a fake quite easily, because there would be no love or devotion to an imaginary being, no matter how good an actor he is.

The ones who really believe are very compelling and the ones who don’t are just flat imitations – speaking from experience. The ones who believe lead you towards God, the ones who don’t in the same way, can’t lead anyone to God because they are lost themselves.
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October 28, 2014 6:56pm
Lucia Maria

No, Scott Chris, the Pope has not lost his faith. Of that, I am totally certain.

SGA, yes, I’ve also heard and seen quite a few strange things. I’m hoping the numbers are not big. At least I know of a number of priests that are solid.
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October 28, 2014 6:59pm
nasska

….”That would send GD to the dogs, wouldn’t it.”….

With Johnboy & Griff as regular contributors we’d probably be best to stick with sheep Reid. 🙂
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October 28, 2014 7:01pm
Ryan Sproull

Ryan,

My first reaction to your comment was, What? Without the ‘t’ and a look of semi-incomprehension. But then I thought about it.

I don’t want to speak for everyone, but if it were me, I couldn’t worship a human construct. It would be a lie. It wouldn’t be real. If God was not real, then I’d be wasting my time. I might as well live until I die rather than wasting my time worshiping an imaginary being.

Depends on what you mean by “real”, of course. Plenty of the things we interact with every day are human constructs – the value of money, laws, nations, etc. They sure feel pretty real.

It’s certainly jarringly at odds with most people’s idea of God – as something that exists in the same way that, say, a door handle exists. But interesting to think about.
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October 28, 2014 7:02pm
waikatogirl

Anglicans are an easy going lot 🙂
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October 28, 2014 7:05pm
nasska

Marx said that “Religion is the opium of the people.” But there are many different religions & sects each with it’s own rich cultural tradition. Therefore it is closed minded to group them all together.

Catholicism is the ‘alcohol of the people,’ it makes you talk a lot of self righteous crap, you are less likely to use condoms and those who take it to an extreme are only going to get laid if they have vulnerable minors under their control.

The Church of England is the ‘marijuana of the people,’ it gives you a vague warm fuzzy feeling but nobody can quite remember why they started believing that shit in the first place.

Islam is the ‘crack cocaine of the people,’ it attracts the desperate, it encourages violence and if you are doing it, chances are you aren’t quite right in the head.
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October 28, 2014 7:09pm
Scott Chris

the Pope has not lost his faith. Of that, I am totally certain.

I’m not saying he has, only that it wouldn’t surprise me if he had, just as a number of Anglican clerics appear to have done according to the article you posted. Why would your average Anglican be any different from your average Roman Catholic? People change.
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October 28, 2014 7:33pm
Sir Leslie Bottocks

This is a very powerful newspaper cartoon. I felt something inside, for a moment, that I can’t really describe. Similar to when I was a lad, and first heard Oscar Wilde’s story of the Happy Prince.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/editorial-cartoon/2014-10-23-editorial-cartoon
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October 28, 2014 7:45pm
big bruv

“Actually, for once I agree with you Big Bruv. I’d be far more worried for children near priests that have lost their faith than those who have not.”

Statistically children would be in far greater danger with those priests who still have their faith.
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October 28, 2014 7:55pm
dad4justice

Stop talking utter rot bb. What is your beef with priests? You never stop condemning them.It’s more than odd it’s rather a long time mental illness!
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October 28, 2014 8:09pm
nasska

Surely BB is performing a civic duty by pointing out the dangers children of indoctrinated parents face D4J.
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October 28, 2014 8:15pm
dad4justice

naSSka how come bigot blouse never takes a swipe at MohamMAD who was a particularly warped, perverted and repulsive pedophile?
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October 28, 2014 8:19pm
nasska

Good point Dad but I guess we usually take aim at the closest targets.
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October 28, 2014 8:23pm
Griff

Yip dad when the Muslim comes on here we are equally as keen to point out the danger inherent in the sexual practices of followers.
Goats have horns sheep dont.
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October 28, 2014 8:41pm
nasska

…..”Goats have horns sheep dont.”….

Thanks for that bit of info Griff. After all these years I still keep getting them mixed up. 🙂
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October 28, 2014 8:46pm
SGA

Griff at 8:41 pm

Goats have horns sheep dont.

Well…. http://www.sheep101.info/horns.html
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October 28, 2014 8:52pm
nasska

It’s a proper cockup ’round here Griff….the sheep are in the paddock but the cows are eyeing up the corn. The farmboy’s having a snore off in the hayshed after having his horn blown by the neighbour’s nympho daughter.

Utter chaos. 🙂
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October 28, 2014 8:55pm
doggone7

BeaB: “Every letter read out this morning on Radio NZ by Guyon Espiner sneered at the PM, in the most insulting ways. Why even read them out when they add nothing but political propaganda?”

How many letters were read out? (Normally there are very few.)
Did they read out all they received? Were they representative of what they got? Did they read yours? On other days do they read out ones which are “nothing but political propaganda”? Do they read out letters from the other side which are “nothing but political propaganda”?
Do supporters of the other side write letters to the programme?
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October 28, 2014 8:55pm
Johnboy

I generally have a fairly good horn on. Am I a goat?
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October 28, 2014 8:58pm
Johnboy

I always thought I was a ram! 🙂
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October 28, 2014 9:00pm
nasska

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z01dyupblxwn8sx/Goat%202.jpg?dl=0
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October 28, 2014 9:03pm
Griff

SGA
well spotted
The sheep I like dont have horns.
some goats dont have horns and I consider them honorary sheep when its nice and dark.
but Mohammad likes his goats with horns and his brides pre puberty
get im young and train them up he always used to say
happy now ?
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October 28, 2014 9:05pm
Johnboy

I know what I’ll do. When I’m in the home paddock I’ll be a ram and when I’m talking to blogs I’ll be a goat.

Just like our PM! 🙂
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October 28, 2014 9:13pm
Tauhei Notts

Reid at 6.46.
That piece was brilliant. The missus reckons I spend too much time on the internet but after reading that piece from Connecticut to her, I then had to hurry and get her a glass of Laphroaig, as she was about to piss herself laughing.
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October 28, 2014 9:20pm
Inandout

Sir LB: Indeed a cartoon with a message. Every child should be given the opportunity of reading or listening to ‘The Happy Prince’, even though Wilde’s ‘message’ is better understand by adults as it encompasses charity, hope, greed, compassion, generosity, loyalty, faith, politicians’ shallowness and finally the little bird’s reward.
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October 28, 2014 10:36pm

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