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October 22, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 22 October 2014

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CrazyIvan

Reid, that source is a little off about Persia timeline-wise, given that it invaded Afghanistan in 1838 to try and capture Herat at the time of the first Anglo-Afghan war. And then the Anglo-Persian War in 1856 sparked by the Persian seizure of Herat.
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October 22, 2014 8:08pm
Kea

Johnboy, one of the people I admire and respect most in life is a true holy roller of the Catholic cult. And a woman. But she is not a blog commentor 😉
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October 22, 2014 8:08pm
Johnboy

Long Pig was old Murri feasting pleasure! 🙂
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October 22, 2014 8:09pm
Nostradamus

Kea:

It has been an informative day seeing the reaction to me posting a very ordinary example of Catholic brutality (it is barely news in the heavily Catholic regions of South America). As expected we have the special pleading and excuse making, but most interesting of all is the way the filthy bigots on KB think posting it is the issue, not the brutality displayed. (because they are Christian)

*Sigh*

I raised two non-religious issues:

1. Judging by what some other Kiwiblog readers have said, the reference to “CATHOLIC South America” had little to do with the video content, which apparently had more to do with issues relating to drugs and gang rivalry. You now refer to “Catholic brutality” and “the heavily Catholoic regions of South America”, but you don’t provide evidence that the video relates to anything other than drugs and gang rivalry.

2. It’s customary – and good blogging etiquette – to include a “not safe for work” caveat when posting links. You didn’t include a warning about graphic content, so others could decide for themselves if they really wanted to click through and watch the gory footage. Some people may have inadvertantly breached their workplace internet policy by clickiing through to your link.

Feel free to address those two non-religious issues. On my reading of the thread, those are the two issues (again, just to reiterate, two non-religious issues) that a number of Kiwiblog readers have been complaining about.
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October 22, 2014 8:11pm
Johnboy

So you don’t fancy Santa Lucia then Kea?

Fair enough. Gives us real rooters a better chance at her! 🙂
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October 22, 2014 8:11pm
Johnboy

If it was normally just Fish, Rat or Kuri on the menu I can see why a nice Long Pig with crackling and apple sauce would go down well! 🙂
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October 22, 2014 8:14pm
nasska

Kea has made a valid, if unnecessarily gory, point today.

It is South American culture as opposed to religion that permits such gruesome killings….the fact that the perpetrators are probably Catholic is fairly irrelevant.

But if you accept this you must also divorce Islam from the actions of the ISIS in Syria & Iraq where brutality was a way of life even before Muhummad’s time.

Religion may be a common factor but it is only one part of a region’s culture.
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October 22, 2014 8:15pm
MT_Tinman

Johnboy (16,529 comments) says:
October 22nd, 2014 at 7:39 pm
I just have to add at this point, despite my disgusting career of shooting defenseless, unarmed, creatures.

I have never shot one from a darkened doorway! 🙂

Having taken out far more animals courtesy of Mr Firestone (and Mr Mortein) than I have with a knife (My tucker as well as dog tucker sheep), a gun or a feather-and-hook on a length of nylon I admit darkened doorways have never been in my arsenal either.
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October 22, 2014 8:30pm
stephieboy

Kea ,

[“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so”

[Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]] ??

Source .??
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October 22, 2014 8:36pm
MT_Tinman

nasska (11,489 comments) says:
October 22nd, 2014 at 8:15 pm

But if you accept this you must also divorce Islam from the actions of the ISIS in Syria & Iraq where brutality was a way of life even before Muhummad’s time.

I must admit I don’t really understand nor appreciate this new fangled “sanctity of life” thing.

Certainly up until the second world war and maybe as late as Vietnam every society was quite happy to kill all who were opposed to their point of view (although rather protective of their own skins admittedly).

“Brutality” was a way of life bloody everywhere! The only thing that changed in thousands of years was the brutality went from individuals to groups.

All of a sudden, at a time where humans are dramatically overpopulating our planet, killing people is “inhuman”.

Why? What has changed?
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October 22, 2014 8:43pm
nasska

What’s the difference between the UK and Pakistan?

One is an Islamic nation where women are veiled and it is completely forbidden to criticize Islam.

The other one is a country to the west of India.
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October 22, 2014 8:44pm
Fletch

btw, I refuted that Hitler-was-a-Catholic stuff the other day, but you just don’t seem to have a memory.

The list of quotes below are from Hitler’s Table Talk

“So it`s not opportune to hurl ourselves now into a struggle with the Churches. The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.”
[14/10/1941]

“The same thing is happening to music as is happening to beauty in a world dominated by the shavelings-the Christian religion is an enemy to beauty.”
[20-21/2/1942]

“What Bolshevism is achieving to-day on the materialist and technical level,Christianity had achieved on the metaphysical level.
When the Crown sees the throne totter,it needs the support of the masses.
It would be better to speak of Constantine the traitor and Julian the Loyal than of Constantine the Great and Julian the Apostate.”
[27/1/1942]

The religion fabricated by Paul of Tarsus,which was later called Christianity,is nothing but the Communism of to-day”
[29-30/11/1944]

“If God is truly interested in men being enlightened,one wonders why He resorts to torture for that purpose.
While we`re on the subject,let`s add that,even amongst those who claim to be good Catholics,very few really believe in this humbug.”

I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie.”

“Our epoch will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.
It will last another hundred years,two hundred years perhaps.
My regret will have been that I couldn`t, like whoever the prophet was, behold the promised land from afar.”
[27/2/1942]

“Kerrl, with the noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don`t believe the thing`s possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.”
[14/12/1941]

“Christianity is a rebellion against natural law,a protest against nature.
Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.”
[10/10/1941]

“I can imagine people being enthusiastic about the paradise of Mahomet, but as for the insipid paradise of the Christians!”

“But Christianity is the invention of sick brains:”
[13/12/1941]

“The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity`s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.”
[11-12/7/1941]

“The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.”
[19/10/1941]

Wikipedia refers to one of your quotes above –

Between 1941 and 1944, the period in which the Table Talk was being transcribed, a number of Hitler’s intimates cite him expressing negative views of Christianity, including Joseph Goebbels,[18] Albert Speer,[19] and Martin Bormann.[20] However Nazi General Gerhard Engel reports that in 1941 Hitler asserted, “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”[21] Similarly Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber reported that Hitler “undoubtedly lives in belief in God … He recognizes Christianity as the builder of western culture.” Ian Kershaw concluded that Hitler had deceived Faulhaber, noting his “evident ability to simulate, even to potentially critical church leaders, an image of a leader keen to uphold and protect Christianity”.[22] The Table Talk indicates Hitler continued to wish for a united Christian Church of Germany for some time after 1937, in line with his earlier policy of uniting all the churches to bring them more firmly under Nazi control, so they would support Nazi policy and act as a unifying rather than divisive force in Germany, that had largely proven unsuccessful.[23][24] By 1940, however, it was public knowledge that Hitler had abandoned even the syncretist idea of a positive Christianity.[25] Instead, after 1938 Hitler began to publicly support a Nazified version of science, particularly social Darwinism, at the core of Nazi ideology in place of a religious one[26] – a development that is reflected in private in his increasingly hostile remarks towards religion in Table Talk.[27]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Table_Talk
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October 22, 2014 8:45pm
Reid

Ivan, what was the geopolitical context of those “invasions” you allege?
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October 22, 2014 8:58pm
Fletch

Investors Daily helps explain why Islamic practice is contributing to the spread of Ebola.

Islam isn’t just at the heart of the terror threat posed by the Islamic State. The religion is also contributing to the other major crisis plaguing the globe: the spread of Ebola.

Washington and its media stenographers won’t tell you this, lest they look intolerant, but Islamic burial rituals are a key reason why health officials can’t contain the spread of the deadly disease in West Africa.

Many of the victims of Ebola in the three hot-spot nations there — Sierra Leone and Guinea, as well as neighboring Liberia — are Muslim. Roughly 73% of Sierra Leone’s and about 85% of Guinea’s people are Muslim. Islam, moreover, is practiced by more than 13% of Liberians.

When Muslims die, family members don’t turn to a funeral home or crematorium to take care of the body. In Islam, death is handled much differently.

Relatives personally wash the corpses of loved ones from head to toe. Often, several family members participate in this posthumous bathing ritual, known as Ghusl.

Before scrubbing the skin with soap and water, family members press down on the abdomen to excrete fluids still in the body. A mixture of camphor and water is used for a final washing. Then, family members dry off the body and shroud it in white linens.

Again, washing the bodies of the dead in this way is considered a collective duty for Muslims, especially in Muslim nations. Failure to do so is believed to leave the deceased “impure” and jeopardizes the faithful’s ascension into Paradise (unless he died in jihad; then no Ghusl is required).

Before the body is buried, Muslims attending the funeral typically pass a common bowl for use in ablution or washing of the face, feet and hands, compounding the risk of infection.
Though these customs are prescribed by Shariah law, they’re extremely dangerous and should be suspended. Mosque leaders must step in to educate village Muslims about the dangers of interacting with corpses.

Ebola victims can be more contagious dead than alive. Their bodies are covered in rashes, blood and other fluids containing the virus.

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-perspective/101614-722174-islamic-burial-rituals-blamed-for-spread-of-ebola.htm
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October 22, 2014 8:58pm
nasska

….”Why? What has changed?”…..

IMO it started with the emancipation of women about a century ago & really took off after WW2. The lives wasted during the two world wars was the catalyst for a change in the way nations sorted out their crap. People of my parent’s age in Western counties were determined that they weren’t just bringing up more canon fodder & the governments got the message.

Another factor has been the rise in living standards. Life becomes more precious when you don’t have to fight for a crust of bread.

Considering the naturally quarrelsome nature of humans, fifty years of relative peace has been a remarkable accomplishment but I’ve got a nasty feeling that when things do blow death will be on a scale never seen before.
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October 22, 2014 9:01pm
Kea

nasska @ 8:15.

Yep. You nailed it.
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October 22, 2014 9:34pm
stephieboy

Fletch , according to my link Islamic funeral traditions follow a similar patterns to Jewish with a strong emphasis of burial taking place as quickly as practicality as possible after death.

https://www.everplans.com/tools-and-resources/muslim-funeral-traditions

It’s important to try to stay close to the facts in attempting to overcome prejudice which begets ignorance . Your link does nothing to contribute to anything but stoking those same flames of prejudice and fear about Ebola
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October 22, 2014 9:41pm
Kea

nasska, you are on a roll tonight.

Yes the next war could be even worse, though personally I do not think so. One thing for sure is that any war against Muslim religious extremists will be tiny. There are just not the number to there to kill. A few local shoot ups do not count, no matter how much the media might pump them up.
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October 22, 2014 9:53pm
Ryan Sproull

Investors Daily helps explain why Islamic practice is contributing to the spread of Ebola.

What does go on in your brain, Fletch.

“Family members don’t turn to a funeral home or a crematorium to take care of the body.” The GDP per capita in Liberia is literally 1% of what it is in New Zealand, and the wealth distribution is nowhere near as egalitarian as it is for Kiwis. Of COURSE people in Liberia don’t use funeral homes or crematoria. Most of them don’t have electricity or indoor plumbing!
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October 22, 2014 10:34pm
wreck1080

“The Reserve Bank’s introduction of limits to low-equity mortgage lending last year had a similar impact on inflation as raising the official cash rate by as much as 50 basis points, governor Graeme Wheeler told a global banking conference in Wellington.”

Graeme Wheeler does himself no credit here because the LVR is a failure.

The LVR devastated home prices in the regions which in many cases are 30% below the 2007 price in real terms. So, not only did he fail to prevent rampant auckland/chc house price increases he threw the regions on the scrap heap just so he could use them to offset what is going on in auckland.

That makes him a dick in my book. The lvr is a failure and the proof is skyrocketing auckland house prices and stagnant or reducing house prices where they were already falling heavily.
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October 23, 2014 10:32am

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