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October 20, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 20 October 2014

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IGM

Wonderful to see the obese German criminal is getting what he deserves . . . the Court of Appeal has seen what this fraud is! All we need now is to see a US cargo plane loading him, manacled, into the cargo hold, on his way to do a real long time as a gang member’s bitch in a tough American pen.
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October 20, 2014 2:27pm
stephieboy

kea, we await the findings of the Dutch safety Safety Board but I’m as much as RT or yourself allowed to draw my own inferences on the available information.

There is strong circumstantial evidence pointing to Rebel complicity including the fact M17 was downed over territory held by them, cell phone and social media messages admitting thus and very importantly having shot down a Ukrainian aircraft shortly before M17 ,

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/14/russian-tanks-enter-ukraine

But we await the Board’s findings well aware IMO an almost zilch per cent chance that Kiev was responsible. But like you perhaps am prepared to remain open minded on the issue.

Now about the compensation for the shooting down of KAL 007 and 902. ???
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October 20, 2014 2:33pm
Kea

stupidboy, Putin has proven himself as a true international statesman, by building important relationships with powerful allies on the international stage. Relations with the massive Chinese market [and US creditor] continue to go from strength to strength.

Meanwhile Obama has sponsored unrest and spread war and dissension. He has soured relations with former allies and supporters, dragging America’s reputation ever lower around the word. In response he has engaged in increasingly desperate and incoherent reactions in order to appear relevant.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/attachments/europe-russia/36211d1396904778-what-ukraines-military-options-regaining-crimea-putin-soviet-reunion.jpg
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October 20, 2014 2:55pm
stephieboy

kea , bombast and rhetoric is no substitute for a calm, reasoned and rational review of the evidence on M17.

Flights KAL 007 and 902 once again.?
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October 20, 2014 3:05pm
Kea

stupidboy, calm, reasoned and rational, includes assuming not only guilt before an investigation of the facts, but assuming the response from the party you accused ?

You are probably right though. If the rebels are involved, Putin will laugh in Obama’s face. Just as Obama laughed in the worlds face when the rebels he backed in Syria killed civilians and chopped the heads of the ancient Christian population in that country.

You will see it all for yourself if they elect a white conservative president next time, I’m sure.
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October 20, 2014 3:10pm
RightNow

The left have figured out they needed a new blog to cover the gaping hole that couldn’t be filled by all the existing lefty blogs.
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October 20, 2014 3:15pm
hj

Prime Minister’s first home advice: Buy an apartment
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11345168

What do you want to be remembered for?”
“Going back to that main point I think it was Muldoon who famously said “I want to leave the country in no worse condition than I found it”.
“Isn’t that a low ambition?”
“Yes I want to leave the country in better condition than I found it and if theres something (I genuinely beleive) It would be lifting our confidence to a certain degree about how we see our selves in the world and what we think we are capable of achieving. Now I think individually there is masses of ambition that sits out there there but can we actually take that and convert that to take the opportunity .
And I always thought what was happening in the opposition of politics (of course they would oppose National, that’s their job actually apart from everything else) but it was a bit negative about out place in the world. So we played a bit about whether people coming here was a good or bad thing whether people should invest here was a good or bad thing, or whether we have a trade agreement with parts of Asia was a good or bad thing, but actually in my mind, the reason that I want to say yes to those things is because they are the opportunities that reflect our opportunities to both get wealthier (which is all about what you can do with that money) and then ultimately the oppurtunities for Kiwis. I’d like New Zealanders to feel (after my time as Prime Minister) they have become more confident outward looking nation more multicultural.

http://www.tv3.co.nz/CAMPBELL-LIVE-Monday-September-22-2014/tabid/3692/articleID/103019/MCat/2908/Default.aspx
and live in apartments…?
What a guy that Key is!!?
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October 20, 2014 3:15pm
alloytoo

@Hj

Buying and living in an apartment is great advice for youngsters looking to start on the property ladder.

(Just like getting a minimum wage job is a good advice to someone who is unemployed and looking to start a career.)
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October 20, 2014 3:22pm
dime

HJ – i thought youd like that!

its good advice. most people i know in aussie started out with apartments or way out west.

houses cost money, people are just gonna have to deal with it.

its just a shame we have such a drag of losers in this country. it would be nice if we were a bit richer.
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October 20, 2014 3:27pm
stephieboy

kea, I think you’ll find that e,g RT has already reached its own conclusions about Ukraine complicity Flight M17 .

Cant see how Putin will be laughing . More likely like be in denial .

Apart the rest of your diatribe Obama like any other candidate ,white or black, can only run for two terms
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October 20, 2014 3:32pm
kowtow

What are British values?

Liberty trumped by tolerance .

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11173102/Christian-school-downgraded-for-failing-to-invite-an-imam-to-lead-assembly.html
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October 20, 2014 3:35pm
calendar girl

stigie @ 1:00pm: “What a pleasure, we have been free from Penny Bright so far today !~’

It seems that she had her last burst over a period of half an hour yesterday morning, four comments posted in GD between 9:14 and 9:42am, the last one making the self-serving assertion “…. but when it comes to supporting an anti- corruption whistle-blower, such as myself, who has effectively put my home on the line, in defence of the lawful rights of citizens and ratepayers ….”.

I felt a pressing need to respond to that provocation, see at http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/10/general_debate_19_october_2014.html#comments at 11.13am. It wasn’t difficult to outline a couple of scenarios (no doubt there are more) in which Penny could do very well financially out of her supposedly noble and courageous action in which she has put her “home on the line, in defence of the lawful rights of citizens and ratepayers ….”.

Penny has not re-appeared yet, but I continue to look forward to her efforts to debunk the idea of the calculated strategy that she may well be following. Whatever the outcome, we all just know that her little pantomime is going to cost Auckland’s ratepayers many thousands of dollars. Auckland Council has been weak on this case so far, and I expect that nothing will change in that respect – the Council will ultimately cave in and let the little schemer off the hook.

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/10/general_debate_19_october_2014.html#comments
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October 20, 2014 3:41pm
tom hunter

Kanz
Nostalgia-NZ
Rowan
Judith
Stephieboy
Michael

Admittedly Judith has not had the gall to re-appear following the humiliation of election day, but nevertheless I have this daydream about a “Survivor” type TV series where the above list of people enter a perfect replica of the Bain family house (circa 1994) and sleep there for the night with a silenced 22 rifle hidden somewhere and a grand prize for the one person who emerges alive the next morning and can beat the rap.

My bet would be on the one with experience.
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October 20, 2014 3:45pm
Shawn Herles

“stupidboy, calm, reasoned and rational, are things I know nothing about.”

There, fixed it for you! 🙂
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October 20, 2014 3:45pm
Shawn Herles

for kowtow, hj, kea………

Trolling

Trolling I define as an attempt to deliberately disrupt a conversation by being grossly offensive or massively off topic. Examples are turning a debate into a religious flame war, or stating all Catholics are complicit in child abuse, all Muslims are terrorists or the like.

Personal Abuse

I want arguments attacked, not people. As an example it will be unacceptable to call someone a moron, but it will be acceptable to say their argument is moronic. That may seem a fine distinction, but an important one. However don’t try and push the distinction to breaking point. If you say that someone’s argument has the integrity of a syphilitic pygmy (for example), then that would find you with a warning or strike.

Gratitious references to attributes people have no control over

People can not choose their gender, race, skin colour or sexual orientation. There will be times when those attributes about a public figure can be a legitimate discussion in relation to an political event. For example the media have quoted Grant Robertson on whether his sexual orientation may be a factor in the leadership election.

But slagging off an MP, or non MP, on the basis of something they can’t control will get a strike or a warning.

Likewise grossly offensive generalisations are not acceptable either. Treat people as individuals. This is not to say one can’t discuss group characteristics (such as why certain races are over-represented in crime statistics), but it should be done in a way which is not derogatory of the entire group.

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/comments_policy

Bye now. Play nice children. 😉
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October 20, 2014 3:54pm
cha

With Pete G as Jeff Probst.
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October 20, 2014 3:59pm
James Stephenson

What are British values?

Since that whole messy business with chopping off the King’s head and whitewashing the insides of churches and all that, British values have been to be slightly embarrassed of any overt display of religious devotion. Anyone treating church as more than something social to do on a Sunday before the lawn’s dry enough to mow, or the pub’s open, should be viewed with suspicion.
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October 20, 2014 4:01pm
hj

Key says first home buyers must now buy an apartment.

Government policies blamed for house prices

Immigration and tax breaks for investment in residential property are being cited as the underlying causes of steep increases in the cost of housing over the past decade.
New Zealand now boasts one of the highest rates of home unaffordability in the world as a result of prices rising far faster than incomes, and the government’s Savings Working Group blames that squarely on the policies of successive governments.
Although “the favourable tax treatment of property investment” accounted for about 50% of house price increases between 2001 and 2007, the working group said, there was also strong evidence that rapid swings in immigration brought about price-rise “shocks”.
There was a sharp spike in immigration in 2001, 2002 and 2003 and, said working group committee member Dr Andrew Coleman, it appeared that property prices did not fall anywhere near as greatly when immigration fell again.
The report added that there was little evidence that immigration boosted local incomes. In fact, the need to build roads and schools meant that net migration contributed to the national deficit.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/4622459/Government-policies-blamed-for-house-prices

Cracks me up how people get so riled up about immigrants. Especially them chinese.

Dime loves em – i like their food, i like their reasonably priced blow jobs, i like that they only seem to commit crimes against each other, i like that they have made me a fortune in property, i like that they built me a kick ass house.

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/05/editorials_on_immigration.html
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October 20, 2014 4:07pm
hj

Incredible. I am stunned. Back in October Andrew Neather, a former Labour party speechwriter, let the cat out the bag when he said that the Government had encouraged immigration “to rub the Right’s nose in diversity”. But while Neather quickly backtracked, documents now released under the Freedom of Information Act suggest that he was telling the truth. Rather than being the result only of incompetence or a short-term economic measure to reduce inflation, Labour’s policy of runaway immigration was a deliberate and cynical attempt to change the face of British society.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100025635/labours-secret-plan-to-lure-immigrants-was-borderline-treason-and-plain-stupid/
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October 20, 2014 4:11pm
Lance

@hj
There were no fucking houses built in Auckland 2010-2012…. it’s that simple.
I know a lot of builders had no work here, many went to Aus.

So guess what, there is a friggin great house shortage now exacerbated by people having stopped leaving in droves for Aus
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October 20, 2014 4:21pm
Kea

Shawn Herles (4,990 comments) says:
October 20th, 2014 at 3:54 pm

for kowtow, hj, kea………

Trolling

Trolling I define as…

Troll

A term used by intellectual cripples when confronted with facts that do not reconcile with their existing prejudice and emotive unreasoned views.

[See; Lack of intellectual honesty, Morons, Ad Hominem attacks]
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October 20, 2014 4:23pm
Shawn Herles

US airstrikes have halted Isis advance on Kobani

“Less than two weeks ago, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan declared that Kobani “was about to fall” to Islamist State. Images beamed worldwide from satellite trucks on the Turkish side showed the militants’ signature black banner rising from buildings and atop Tel Shair, a hill overlooking the city.

But an abrupt reversal in fortunes, aided by US-led airstrikes, appears to have blunted the prospect of a speedy conquest by the militants. No more black flags can been seen fluttering on the skyline of Kobani. The battle, freighted with symbolic if not strategic significance, has taken on an unexpected turn since Turkey’s president predicted the city’s downfall.

Kurds on both sides of the border say the extremist advance has been halted in large part because of the airstrikes, now numbering at least 130 in the area, more than in any other part of Syria or Iraq since the air campaign against Islamic State kicked off in August. Warplanes have delivered punishing blows to the militants’ artillery, armored vehicles, communications gear and fighting units.

After a sluggish start, say Kurdish fighters and Kobani residents, the aerial assault has stopped Islamic State in its tracks and contributed to retreats along the southern and western flanks of the city.

Urban combat tends to favor the Kurds, who are familiar with the streets, alleys and buildings of Kobani, known in Arabic as Ayn al-Arab, once a densely populated city of gray apartment blocs and commercial structures. Kurdish snipers are posted on rooftops along major approaches to the now largely deserted city center, thwarting militant forays.

“Give us weapons and we will defeat Daesh all over the region,” pleaded Mohamed Jamal, 30, a wiry Kurdish fighter with curly hair found mingling with fellow Kobani exiles in the central square of Suruc. “We don’t run from them like the Iraqi or the Syrian armies. We can defeat them if we have the means.”

While the Kurds express disdain for Islamic State, much of their ire is directed at the Turkish government, a reluctant partner in the US-led coalition arrayed against the militant network. The cornerstone of Turkish regional policy is toppling the government of Syrian President Bashar Assad, not defeating Islamic State, and Ankara helps numerous Syrian rebel groups to that end.

For the US-led aerial assault, however, the Kurds express high praise – and hopes that the barrage will not soon diminish.

“Without the airstrikes, Kobani would be completely under the control of Daesh now,” said Mustafa Mohammed, 50, a father of 10 from a village south of the city who fled a month ago. “We would have lost everything. Now, at least, maybe we can think about going home someday.”

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-east/62544661/us-airstrikes-have-halted-isis-advance-on-kobani

De Oppresso Liber!
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October 20, 2014 4:23pm
dime

lmao the hacks at the herald are doing their best to have adern & GR elected leader..

apparently they are “Gracinda”

My god.

You are worthless NZ herald
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October 20, 2014 4:28pm
dime

Herald Headline “Keisha Castle-Hughes to star in zombie smash”

Reality – shes going to be in an episode and is playing an amputee.
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October 20, 2014 4:29pm
Kea

Disgust over ‘You will not make Australia home’ anti-immigration ad

The Australian government has released a controversial anti-immigration poster – which Australian customs says is to stop people smuggling.

The images and wording in the poster display a ship in rough seas with the words, “No way. You will not make Australia home”.

http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/disgust-over-you-not-make-australia-home-anti-immigration-ad-6111927?autoStart=true

Good on them and about time.
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October 20, 2014 4:31pm
IGM

Has the obese German started packing, lubricants and all?
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October 20, 2014 4:35pm
wikiriwhis business

“Everyone’s got a scam going but only the poor do the jail time ”

BBC Free Speech

On Tuesday’s show on BBC Three, a viewer asked ‘Why are there so many programmes about benefit cheats, when the ones who steal the most from the welfare state are the bankers and big corporations?’ – here’s what happened…

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=547412532024924&set=vb.195792860520228&type=2&theater
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October 20, 2014 4:38pm
hj

Kea (12,768 comments) says:
October 20th, 2014 at 4:31 pm

Disgust over ‘You will not make Australia home’ anti-immigration ad
……
Approval over ‘You will not make Australia home’ anti-immigration ad.
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October 20, 2014 4:51pm
Albert_Ross

hj at 4:11, that link is to an article that is five years old and most of its main points are specific to the UK context. What was your purpose in posting it?
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October 20, 2014 4:53pm
Kea

hj, yep. They are not refugees, they are illegal immigrants taking the piss.

Australia owes nothing to these people. Most of them have come from the other side of the world, right down to the bottom, past numerous other countries, often with more compatible cultures. Why is the rich nation of Saudi Arabia not helping out their Muslim brothers, for example ?
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October 20, 2014 4:57pm
Shawn Herles

US airdrops arms, ammunition to Kurds fighting ISIS in Kobani.

“The U.S. military said late Sunday that it had dropped weapons, ammunition, and medical supplies to Kurdish forces battling to hold the Syrian border town of Kobani against Islamic State militants.

The airdrops were the first of their kind and followed weeks of U.S. and coalition airstrikes in and near Kobani. Earlier Sunday, U.S. Central Command said that it had launched 11 airstrikes overnight in the area.

The airdrops are almost certain to anger the Turkish government, which has said it would oppose any U.S. arms transfers to the Kurdish rebels in Syria.

In a written statement, CentCom said its forces have conducted more than 135 airstrikes against Islamic State forces in Kobani.

Using an acronym for the Islamic State group, Central Command said, “Combined with continued resistance to ISIL on the ground, indications are that these strikes have slowed ISIL advances into the city, killed hundreds of their fighters and destroyed or damaged scores of pieces of ISIL combat equipment and fighting positions.”

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/10/20/us-airdrops-arms-to-kurds-fighting-isis-in-syrian-town-kobani/
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October 20, 2014 4:58pm
Odakyu-sen

Kea,

Who said the ad is “anti-immigration”?

I thought it was “anti people-smuggling.” Immigration is legal; people-smuggling is illegal. Do you deny a nation the right to police and protect its borders?

Do you leave your doors unlocked?
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October 20, 2014 5:08pm
hj

Albert_Ross (290 comments) says:
October 20th, 2014 at 4:53 pm

hj at 4:11, that link is to an article that is five years old and most of its main points are specific to the UK context. What was your purpose in posting it?
……….
It is the UK but was NZ any different?
It was 5 years ago but so what the same people are pushing the same agenda.

Take Helen Clark

“I find your society genuinely admirable in many ways. For example, I met Helen Clark while I was in Wellington. I was invited to her official residence, and waved in by a lone policeman who didn’t even check who I was, then I had a barbecue with her. I congratulated her on the public’s enlightened attitudes towards racial issues, but she disagreed. She said to me that New Zealand was really a very racist country, and she was determined to do everything she could as prime minister to change that. I thought that was a very bold, honest statement to make to a foreigner, and I really respected her for that.”

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/features/3751531/Acting-giant-reflects-on-NZ-society

1
New Zealand has never been adverse to remaking itself in various ways during its
relatively short life as a modern state. Whether it was the 1890s, the 1930s or the 1980s,
far-reaching reforms have dramatically altered the institutions and policies of this society.
The 1980s marked a range of changes – economic, social, cultural – as the country sought
to re-align its geo-political connections and the domestic and international
competitiveness of its economy. For most of the 1980s, the dominant cultural debates
centred around national identity, and what might be labelled “post-colonialism”, or in
During’s (1985) terms, coming to know New Zealand in our terms, not those which
originated with a colonial power. At the core of this re-assessment was an emergent
biculturalism which involved placing indigeneity and the effects of colonialism on the
tangata whenua as a key consideration of political and policy development from the
1970s, and more particularly from 1985. Whether it was the delivery of Maori-sensitive
welfare and economic policy, increasing the awareness of the impact of colonialism both
in an historical as well as a contemporary sense, or Treaty settlements, there was a
significant re-orientation of public perception and practice. It also involved inviting
others, notably Pakeha, to explore their own post-colonial identity (Spoonley, 1995). But
almost simultaneously, decisions were being made about New Zealand’s immigration
policies that were to have far reaching consequences for the cultural politics of New
Zealand, although it was to be almost a decade before there was an awareness of what
exactly this meant. Those decisions about immigration that saw policy altered from 1986
onwards have remade the cultural mix of New Zealand and have added a new layer to the
evolving imagery and policy concerns of this country.

DEFINING IDENTITY AND CREATING CITIZENS :
THE MEDIA AND IMMIGRANTS IN NEW ZEALAND

Paul Spoonley
“New Zealand” for these purposes isn’t democratically elected “New Zealand” it is left leaning academics and politicians of a certain mindbent.
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October 20, 2014 5:09pm
Shawn Herles

“With a family like this: Nevada GOP candidate’s relatives tell voters to pick rival.”

Oops! 🙂

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/10/19/with-family-like-this-nevada-gop-candidate-kin-tell-voters-to-pick-dem-opponent/
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October 20, 2014 5:10pm
Odakyu-sen

Sorry, Kea. I might have got it wrong. What are your thoughts about the Ozzie ad again?
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October 20, 2014 5:13pm
Kea

Kea,

Who said the ad is “anti-immigration”?

The people who wrote the news article I quoted.

I agree with you.
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October 20, 2014 5:15pm
Shawn Herles

The social market economy.

“The Social market economy (German: Soziale Marktwirtschaft) is a form of market capitalism combined with a social policy favoring social insurance,[1] and is sometimes classified as a coordinated market economy.[2] The social market economy was originally promoted and implemented in West Germany by the Christian Democratic Union (CDU) under Chancellor Konrad Adenauer in 1949.[3] Its origins can be traced to the interwar Freiburg school of economic thought.[4]

The social market economy was designed to be a third way between laissez-faire economic liberalism and socialist economics.[5] It was strongly inspired by ordoliberalism[6] and the tradition of Catholic social teaching or, more generally, Christian ethics.[5]

The social market economy refrains from attempts to plan and guide production, the workforce, or sales, but it does support planned efforts to influence the economy through the organic means of a comprehensive economic policy coupled with flexible adaptation to market studies. Effectively combining monetary, credit, trade, tax, customs, investment, and social policies, as well as other measures, this type of economic policy creates an economy that serves the welfare and needs of the entire population, thereby fulfilling its ultimate goal.[7]

Some authors use the term social capitalism with roughly the same meaning as social market economy.[8][9][10] It is also called Rhine capitalism, typically when contrasting it with the Anglo-Saxon model of capitalism.[11][12][13][14] Rather than see it as an antithesis, some authors describe Rhine capitalism as successful synthesis of the Anglo-American model with social democracy.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_market_economy
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October 20, 2014 5:27pm
RF

Not a fan of the ABs but feel this stinks and reflects badly on old Mumble chops Hansen.

Wee precious Carter has been selected for the tour and pushed Slade out.

I wager Carter will be injured again in training and not play.
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October 20, 2014 5:28pm
Fletch

German biker gangs join in fight against ISIS.

http://tundratabloids.com/2014/10/german-bikers-now-join-dutch-compatriots-in-fight-against-islamic-state.html
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October 20, 2014 5:31pm
hj

alloytoo (539 comments) says:
October 20th, 2014 at 3:22 pm

@Hj

Buying and living in an apartment is great advice for youngsters looking to start on the property ladder.

(Just like getting a minimum wage job is a good advice to someone who is unemployed and looking to start a career.)
…
and by the same token if the Warehouse sold cardboard houses that would be good too, or houses without windows or living underground without air conditioning, all because government policies are designed to enrich property investors.
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October 20, 2014 5:35pm
Akaroa

There are a couple of posts above that are dismissive of apartment living/owning. This is a viewpoint that I’ve noticed a few times, often being embraced by Kiwis, and one that for the life of me I can’t understand.

(I should perhaps point out that I live in an eighth-floor central Auckland apartment and have done for the past five plus years. I have no plans to move)

In my lifetime I have lived in city centre apartments a number of times in such diverse places as UK, Singapore, Malta, Aden and Wellington NZ, to name but a few.

To me, apartment living has everything one could wish for – and none of the drawbacks of living in a detached house – which I have also done in several places in UK, Aden and NZ. No paths to sweep, exterior of house to paint, garden to maintain etc., etc..

In an apartment complex there is normally someone contracted to keep the outside area tidy, to clean public areas and the outside of the windows, maintain internal fittings etc., etc. Most apartment complexes have secure car parking – usually below ground. Control of entry to the apartment building and car park is restricted to occupants by key or combination.

Amongst the other advantages inherent in apartment living are the complete absence of door-knocking salesmen, evangelists or other pests – including crims checking for houses empty in the absence of the occupants. I could go on…..

Disadvantages? Not many, although apartments do not increase in value at the rate that SOME stand alone houses do – (if that’s important to you!)

No. Give me apartment living any day – you can keep your ‘quarter acre pavlova paradise’!
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October 20, 2014 5:37pm
Shawn Herles

Best explanation for Distributism I have seen. Apparently it was all down to vast amounts of alcohol.

The Imaginative Conservative: What next for Distributism.

http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2014/07/next-distributism.html
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October 20, 2014 5:49pm
OneTrack

kowtow – “What are British values? Liberty trumped by tolerance .”

I suspect it is simply too late for Britain.

And for some reason, Bryan Gould didn’t want to hang around to soak up all that “tolerance”.
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October 20, 2014 6:03pm
Shawn Herles

Reclaiming Conservatism from Libertarians.

“Libertarianism argues that the role of government is to uphold order, maximize personal liberty, and… pretty much nothing else. Government has no role to play in providing social services like Medicare or Medicaid, fostering economic growth (because the economy grows best when government does not meddle), promoting or even having a social policy. Issues like abortion and marriage are best left to the states or even to civil society.

The best that can be said is that libertarianism, in its moral defense of personal liberty, is a useful corrective to the assumption that prevailed for the rest of human history: that people are made unequal, and that the rich and strong have more rights than the poor and weak. That idea, which was widely presumed to be true for millennia, is tripe, and libertarianism is right to crusade against it. Libertarians would have you believe that they are the only soldiers courageous enough for this particular crusade; that you must accept their philosophy in toto to guard against tyranny; that no other philosophy has ever effectively checked the power of government. Their claim is more than tripe; it is propaganda. You do not have to be a libertarian to be against monarchy.

The other argument in defense of libertarianism is that it is efficient. We should protect human liberty above all else and minimize the role of government because it leads to the best outcomes for everyone. A laissez-faire market creates the most wealth. Free expression creates a free marketplace of ideas in which the truth will prevail. Market-based solutions are the best way to protect the environment because if people want a clean environment, all they have to do is pay for one. The competition of the private sector drives companies to greater heights of efficiency, productivity, and quality, which is why we should entrust everything from mail delivery to space exploration to them and not to the government.

Against these arguments are the fairly standard counterclaims about market failure, moral hazard, and the tragedy of the commons. Sometimes a marketplace of ideas does not result in truth if evil propaganda is shouted more loudly and frequently, especially by well-armed thugs. A free market for environmental goods is impossible because I cannot buy my own individual slice of clean air. And the efficiency of the private sector is only true when all parties have full, free, perfect information—which they never do unless the owners of information are compelled to disclose it by the government. These arguments boil down to the fairly obvious point (obvious to everyone except libertarians, that is) that sometimes working in groups and vesting power in a central authority is more efficient and productive than working in competition.

Libertarianism has the appeal of a personal organizer, or cargo pants, or a trapper keeper. It is a total organization system for all your ideas, convictions, and beliefs about society and politics. When you put libertarianism on, you have a tidy little place for every little thought and opinion. Even better, you can automatically generate an opinion on any issue by pure deduction with very little knowledge of actual facts. Take the first principle of libertarianism—personal autonomy is the highest good to which all other goods should be subordinated–and you can quickly Tweet about school choice (good), the Affordable Care Act (bad), NSA surveillance (very bad), and Miley Cyrus (who cares as long as she is a rational adult?). There is a pleasant empowerment in the comprehensiveness of libertarianism. Like every all-encompassing ideology, it gives you the ability, with very little thought or knowledge, to explain everything. As much as I hate the writing of Ralph Waldo Emerson, he was on to something when he wrote that “foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.”

And libertarianism is certainly the product of little minds. By “little minds” I mean those so enamored with their own ideas that they have shrunk inwards to the point that larger ideas and facts simply float by, unobserved and unexamined. How else to explain the regular and distressing gap between libertarian ideas and reality?

In Russell Kirk’s classic formulation, conservatism respects custom, tradition, and continuity with the past. The libertarian view of the role of government would be a radical break with the past. Conservatives believe strongly in the authority of precedent. Libertarians, who lack precedent for most of their favored policies, are bold to advocate untested, unproven policies. Conservatives are cautious and patient, happy to work for justice and order incrementally, by degrees. Libertarians, with their complete blueprint for the country, are pitchfork radicals ambitious to fight the system as a whole. Conservatives are comfortable with inconsistency, variety, and local solutions. Libertarians have an ideological cookie cutter they want to slap down on every policy issue in every jurisdiction. Conservatives have lower expectations of people and politics because of their understanding of human nature; libertarians betray a naiveté about nature of the world and its inhabitants when they wax utopian in their zeal to remake the world.

Reforming conservatism is an important effort, but libertarianism is a dead-end. In its extreme forms, it is simplistic, rigid, and ideologically naïve. It rests on a view of human nature—that we are best understood as autonomous individuals defending our rights against others rather than responsible members of families and communities—that is unrealistic and even damaging. Libertarianism has an unhelpful association with the juvenile and destructive philosophy of Ayn Rand, which every self-respecting conservative should denounce. The heart of conservatism is self-government that is limited, accountable, devolved, and effective. We can get there without the help of libertarianism.”

http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2014/09/reclaiming-conservatism-libertarians.html
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October 20, 2014 6:05pm
Kea

I suspect it is simply too late for Britain.

I suspect the same. They are adopting Islam willingly, unlike Christianity which was forced on them by the sword. Democracy at work in real life.

Shawn, thanks for the cut n’ paste, but most of us can look it up ourselves. How about telling us in your own words ? Or is your vocabulary restricted to typing – troll – over and over and over ?
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October 20, 2014 6:08pm
Kea

Conservatives are comfortable with inconsistency, variety, and local solutions. Libertarians have an ideological cookie cutter they want to slap down on every policy issue in every jurisdiction.

😯

Only on KB. This sort of comedy gold is why I keep coming back.
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October 20, 2014 6:13pm
cha

And for some reason, Bryan Gould didn’t want to hang around to soak up all that “tolerance”.

Yeah, the cheeky bugger came home.
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October 20, 2014 6:23pm
Griff

The heart of conservatism is self-government that is limited, accountable, devolved, and effective. We can get there without the help of libertarianism.”

😆
The hart of conservatism is the church and the Monarchy.
Not accountable, not limited, not devolved And definitely not self government .
Shawn you do realize that America and the new world is founded on liberals escaping from stifling conservative values.
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October 20, 2014 6:30pm
tvb

People owning a house like the souring house values. And the Labour Party threatens them with a capital gains tax. Why? So they can spend the money. You cannot promise a new tax that will pay for your extravagant promises but then with the other cheek say it will not affect you. The problem with the Labour Party is they are not authentic. We even have Grant Robinson posing with attractive Jacinda Arden trying to airbrush robinson’s Alf out of the picture. Their cosy pictures make them look like a couple. But this isN’t real. It is fake.
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October 20, 2014 6:36pm
Left Right and Centre

dammit – another failed job interview – why oh why ?

Oh yeah – white, reads English, IQ above 20. Doh !!
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October 20, 2014 6:38pm
Shawn Herles

Dear Diary,

Woke up.

Logged on to KB.

Waited. Waited. Waited.

Someone says something about religion.

I say; “DISGUSTING BIGOT! YOU SUCK! CATHOLICS SUCK! HITLER SAID! ARRRRGGHHHH!!!”

Someone says something about terrorists.

I say; “DISGUSTING BIGOT! YOU SUCK! ISRAEL SUCKS! HITLER SAID! ARRRRGGHHHH!!!”

Someone says something about my homeboy Putin.

I say; “DISGUSTING BIGOT! YOU SUCK! AMERICA SUCKS! HITLER SAID! ARRRRGGHHHH!!!”

Someone says something about religion again.

I say; “DISGUSTING BIGOT! YOU SUCK! CHRISTIANS SUCK! HITLER……..”

“Kea! It’s tea time!”

“Not now Mum, I’m saving the world from bigotry!!!!”

After tea.

Stephieboy says something. Doesn’t matter what, I don’t bother reading him anymore, already got my answer.

“STUPIDBOY-DISGUSTING BIGOT! YOU SUCK! OBAMA SUCKS! HITLER SAID! ARRRRGGHHHH!!!”

They don’t seem to appreciate all my facts and reason. Idiot bigots.

Wen’t to bed. Might do the same thing tomorrow.

Goodnight Diary.

Kea. 🙂
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October 20, 2014 6:38pm
Manolo

The lunacy of it: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/19/u-s-humanitarian-aid-going-to-isis.html

While U.S. warplanes strike at the militants of the so-called Islamic State in both Syria and Iraq, truckloads of U.S. and Western aid has been flowing into territory controlled by the jihadists, assisting them to build their terror-inspiring “Caliphate.”

The aid—mainly food and medical equipment—is meant for Syrians displaced from their hometowns, and for hungry civilians. It is funded by the U.S. Agency for International Development, European donors, and the United Nations.
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October 20, 2014 6:40pm
dad4justice

Shawn please get back on your medication asap, as your posts are deluded and unhinged. I think you need to see a Sigmund Doctor who has access to the psychotropic pills immediately. I hope you get better soon.
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October 20, 2014 6:45pm
Lucia Maria

Shawn,

LOL!
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October 20, 2014 6:48pm
Lucia Maria

Look what’s happening in Britain (just heard about it on the radio):

Internet trolls face up to two years in jail under new laws
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October 20, 2014 6:51pm
cha

Sigmund Doctor

Surely he needs to see a sigmoidoscope doctor.
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October 20, 2014 6:54pm
dad4justice

cha -maybe you are right sometimes he can be a pain in the arse.
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October 20, 2014 6:59pm
Kea

Shawn Herles (4,997 comments) says:
October 20th, 2014 at 6:38 pm
Dear Diary,

Woke up.

Logged on to KB.

Waited. Waited. Waited.

Someone says something about religion.

You “Waited. Waited. Waited.” yet this was the first post of the day. An attack on religion by Kowtow.

kowtow (8,428 comments) says:
October 20th, 2014 at 8:04 am
Can’t trust the bastard

But he was only warming up !

If the same was written about Jews, I wonder how quickly you would be banned.

Hurry up and fuck off then.And take the rest of your lot with you.Filthy hypocrites hate us ,but live like lice on us sucking away our wealth while seething with hate and plotting murder.

He better watch out if those anti troll laws come in, as should the hate filled Lucy.
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October 20, 2014 7:02pm
OneTrack

Lucia – “Look what’s happening in Britain (just heard about it on the radio):”

1984 finally getting here, just running a bit late. Surprise, surprise, Britain again. Who wudda thought.
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October 20, 2014 7:07pm
nasska

Spark/Telecom help desk support techs commuting to work:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x1fb4xqgutfww9n/Spark.jpg?dl=0
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October 20, 2014 7:20pm
nasska

He was four minutes late Kea…..must have slept in. 🙂
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October 20, 2014 7:22pm
Griff

Awesome Shawn still laughing.
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October 20, 2014 7:24pm
Shawn Herles

Dear Diary,

P.S. Forgot to tell the uppity immigrant Shorn to go back to his own country, cause, you know, bigotry is bad. Don’t unerstand why he don get that….zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

🙂
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October 20, 2014 7:24pm
cha

Surprise surprise, two blokes arrested in Poland suspected to be working for Russia, one a lawyer working on strategic infrastructure, the other a Polish military officer whose work included a role with NATO.
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October 20, 2014 7:28pm
MikeyC

WOO-HOO !!!
Didn’t even remember to tune into “The Huddle” this afternoon.
I was a regular weekly listener on NewsTalkZB for months.
But today I completely forgot to tune into Larrys Drive Time.
This General Debate has had twice as many comments as Whale Oils today.
A few months ago, those numbers were the complete opposite.
Very Interesting Statistics 🙂
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October 20, 2014 7:29pm
Kea

“Griff (7,675 comments) says:
October 20th, 2014 at 7:24 pm
Awesome Shawn still laughing.”

Yeah but he can’t remember why he is laughing.

Griff is off his face again. Going to be long night ! “_
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October 20, 2014 7:41pm
Lucia Maria

OneTrack, yes, it makes me wonder if it’s inevitable, that it will happen everywhere.

On the one hand, I can see why they are doing it. Having been the subject of extreme threats myself, I can understand a desire to do something. On the other, it seems extreme. Maybe the removal of access to the internet would be punishment enough, unless there is evidence of more sinister intent.
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October 20, 2014 7:42pm
Lucia Maria

Cha,

I bet those two are just the tip of the iceberg.
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October 20, 2014 7:43pm
Reid

Dear Diary

One of Shawn’s tactics which you can see clearly when you’ve watched him for awhile is to put words in people’s mouths and then swear black and blue that’s what they really did say. He does this a lot to people he disagrees with and he doesn’t care about the accuracy or otherwise. Sometimes he uses humour to disguise what he’s doing in the same way a school yard bully does.

My analysis is he does this because he has a deeply sadistic nature and takes it personally when people don’t agree with what he regards as his astonishing wisdom on any given topic he hallucinates he’s an expert in.

Perhaps he missed his Dad when he was growing up so he learned this as part of a coping mechanism, who knows, who doesn’t have scars of one kind or another. But it’s a sad, sad thing to see a grown man ignoring wisdom such as “Know Thyself” and going further to externalise his own emotional insecurity which then, to him, makes it OK to attack others for little to no reason other than they disagree with him. Perhaps it’s people like Shawn whom another ancient sage, called Bias, had in mind when he wrote – “Most men are bad.”
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October 20, 2014 7:43pm
big bruv

So day one in the house and already Wussel Norman is making a dickhead of himself.

http://www.inthehouse.co.nz/video/34400

It seems that comrade Wussel is still highly pissed off that he is once again not a part of the government. Long may Wussel stay pissed off.
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October 20, 2014 7:45pm
cha

Indeed Lucia.

http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20141018/194252965/Polish-Investigators-Find-List-of-People-Russian-Intelligence.html
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October 20, 2014 7:47pm
nasska

Griff

Remember back a few weeks ago before the elections when the Neanderthal conservonutters were wailing about how the destruction of society by the progs started in the Sixties? It seems that the wheels fell off a bit earlier.

From a 1959 men’s magazine we bring you the potheads who rooted like rabbits & started the slide to libertarian atheism! 🙂

https://www.dropbox.com/s/btuo9q4cr550ael/Beatniks.jpg?dl=0
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October 20, 2014 7:51pm
mandk

Kea: “… unlike Christianity which was forced on them by the sword”

You are either appallingly ignorant, or downright dishonest.

The Brits under Roman rule may unwittingly have been converted to Christianity, but they ceased practising the religion pretty well as soon as the Romans left. The Christianity practised in Britain for the next 1400 years or so was the result of re-evangelising by Celtic missionaries.

Force had nothing to do with it.

Everyone knows that you are desperate to besmirch Christianity, as well as being a Jew-hater, so why don’t you just give it a break?
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October 20, 2014 7:52pm
Kea

The Brits under Roman rule may unwittingly have been converted to Christianity

“may” 🙂 and “unwittingly” 😆

Still try to work out the “Jew hater” bit. Was it when I said they are my favourite desert cult due to their intellectual culture ? (Something you clearly don’t have access to)
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October 20, 2014 7:57pm
Lucia Maria

Manolo,

Just noticed your 6:40pm comment.

That’s the problem with food drops (et al), unless you can take control of them on the ground, you really cannot stop them from getting into the hands of the enemy. It would be good if they could bug and booby trap them, but then that would be a whole nother level of sophistication.
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October 20, 2014 7:58pm
EAD

I think Ayn Rand may have had Shawn in mind when she said: “The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see”

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-10-18/orwell-was-only-wrong-about-date
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October 20, 2014 8:02pm
Kea

Surprise surprise, two blokes arrested in Poland

Shocking stuff. Balaclava clad Polish secret police bundling people into cars. Hopefully Putin will intervene to stop this sort of thing happening in a democratic country. America could intervene, but they seem a bit over committed right now.
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October 20, 2014 8:04pm
mandk

Kea,

You’re not stupid. Refer to my 9.28 am.
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October 20, 2014 8:04pm
Kea

mandk, you are the very sort of person who has persecuted Jews for centuries. And they know it. Which is why Jews generally are suspicious of Christians, at best, and openly contemptuous at worst. Muslim clergy are not spat on in Israel, as yours are daily.

I do not understand the christian need to hate and persecute. You are truly a cancer on humanity.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/ultra-orthodox-spitting-attacks-on-old-city-clergymen-becoming-daily-1.393669
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October 20, 2014 8:11pm
nasska

A man was in the hospital recovering from an operation when a nun walked into his room. She was there to cheer up the sick and ailing.
The man and nun started talking and she asked about his life. He talked about his wife and 13 children.
“My, my,” said the nun, “13 children…. you’re a good, proper Catholic family. The Lord is very proud of you!”
“I’m sorry, Sister,” he said, “I am not Catholic. I’m Jewish.”
“Jewish!?” she replies. “Hmmm…. you’re a sex maniac, aren’t you?”
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October 20, 2014 8:30pm
stigie

What is Celibacy?

Celibacy can be a choice in life,
Or a condition imposed by circumstances.

While attending a Marriage last weekend
my wife and I listened to the instructor declare :

‘It is essential that husbands and wives know the things that are important to each other..”
He then addressed the men,
‘Can you name and describe your wife’s favourite flower?’

I leaned over, touched my wife’s hand gently and whispered

‘Self-raising, isn’t it?’

And thus began my life of celibacy……….
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October 20, 2014 8:45pm
dime

“Dime loves em – i like their food, i like their reasonably priced blow jobs, i like that they only seem to commit crimes against each other, i like that they have made me a fortune in property, i like that they built me a kick ass house”

ya love that eh HJ? glad i could inspire you.
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October 20, 2014 8:51pm
dime

bruv – i want those 4 mins back. what a snivelling little twerp.

the fact that norman likes to be called doctor speaks volumes about his insecurities
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October 20, 2014 8:57pm
RF

I have just lost a bet. I have heard that one of the Labour panel to sort out their election loss is a female Maori called Stacy. She is apparently the daughter of James Daniels who is a host on a Christchurch radio station. I did not believe that she was one of the 4 in the think tank and took a small wager….. Sorry but she knows zilch about anything and devotes her time to her rugby league husband and family. A typical labour lightweight.
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October 20, 2014 8:57pm
waikatogirl

OneTrack 6.03
Bryan Gould came to NZ to take up the vice-chancellor position at uni of waikato.
He made himself really popular on campus… The story (from someone in the know) goes that he and his wife didn’t like the kidney shaped pool at the vice-chanellor’s residence so had it dug out and replaced with a rectangular pool, along with a complete garden revamp.

Easy to spend other people’s money!
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October 20, 2014 9:07pm
OneTrack

waikatogirl – re Gould – how do they get away with this stuff?
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October 20, 2014 9:22pm
waikatogirl

It’s easy OneTrack, left wing ENTITLEMENT!!! Compulsive snouts in the trough. Hence the need to continually think up new taxes for the poor old taxpayer.

Gould was a buttoned up self-emportant arse. Shame he didn’t stay in Britain ;
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October 20, 2014 9:31pm
alloytoo

@hj at 3:22 pm says:

“and by the same token if the Warehouse sold cardboard houses that would be good too, or houses without windows or living ;underground without air conditioning, all because government policies are designed to enrich property investors.”

Like employment, like vehicles, like clothes, different market offerings suit different people. This is why market economies offer choice, and why they work.

It’s also why command economies fail.
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October 20, 2014 9:46pm
Lucia Maria

Cha,

Have you seen this? Across the world, from Poland to Pahiatua

Looks like there’s something worth going to this weekend!
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October 20, 2014 9:48pm
The Right Way

Cameron Slater (who will laugh at this) referred to Jacinda Adern as being “barren” on NewstalkZB tonight. I am a white, right-leaning middle-aged male. I gagged.

Have you thought of this Mr Slater: maybe she can’t have children, might wish to? Are you fat because you want to be?
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October 20, 2014 10:08pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Here’s a recent offering from Bryan Gould on the Standard
http://thestandard.org.nz/kim-jong-key-is-missing/

have I lost my funny bone? or has this esteemed gentleman overestimated his ability to write satire?
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October 20, 2014 10:17pm
The Right Way

You have not lost your humour. That’s not satire. It is totally pathetic and juvenile
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October 20, 2014 10:23pm
Pete George

“Have you thought of this Mr Slater: maybe she can’t have children, might wish to? Are you fat because you want to be?”

Slater also referred to Ardern as barren on Whale Oil:

Yeah, here’s the gay man going: “look! this barren woman cares about kids, even though neither of us are in a family situation that anyone would recognise as mainstream New Zealand”.

Slater is still a nasty bastard because he wants to be. He has dug a dirty hole and keeps digging.

Using his ‘logic’ he has never been an MP so he has never been in a political situation that anyone would recognise as mainstream New Zealand?
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October 21, 2014 7:05am

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