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October 12, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 12 October 2014

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General Debate

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Kea

nasska, If you can afford it and want it, go for it I say. You tree hugging prog 😉
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October 12, 2014 7:24pm
freemark

Cents per Watt of module (panel) & inverter is the only relevant measure of economics. Efficiency of module only applies to very large scale plants where you may get 20% fewer modules to install (current max difference) – but you are paying more per Watt for the efficiency generally. Any infant technology is at least 3 years from bringing down $Watt prices for Modules, Inverters won’t go down as they offer more intelligence & connectivity as standard. Module output is generally guaranteed (covered by big name underwriters) as 80% of original at 25 years service. It’s a no brainer if you have a good space to put modules…
Module price is generally around 1/3 of installed system cost.
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October 12, 2014 7:32pm
nasska

Not so much a tree hugger Kea….just a long term sufferer of the neglect of the local electricity infrastructure by Powerco. Where we are the power goes off so often that I reckon we wouldn’t even notice the inconvenience of becoming Amish. 🙂
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October 12, 2014 7:33pm
Griff

Expect to pay less than $3,000 kw installed for a cost competitive system in a year or so on a new build .
Go with micro grid tye inverters cheaper to install more efficient, more reliable, and flexible than large single inverter based systems.
Don,t get sucked in by people selling fancy equipment that gives you no actual benefit .
The thing to watch is feed in tariffs and fixed line rates from your electricity retailer they are inclined to eat the benefit if you dont have a good suppler.

I am looking at going off grid when we build a house up at the beach using lipo batteries solar wind hybrid generation
led lighting and gas water heating/ cooking should come to 15,000 to 20,000 total . of course I will install my self so I dont get ripped by the greedy trades
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October 12, 2014 7:39pm
Kea

nasska, I would love to be self sufficient. I am a bit of a greeny at heart, but the communists came and made it political.

I believe we have too much stuff. If you think about it, most of our possessions are status symbols and social identifiers. It is doubtful they add much to our quality of live, and constantly working and taking on debt (to buy that stuff) diminishes our lives.

Houses are a great example. As our families have shrunk our houses have gotten bigger. Most houses are about displaying status, not giving you a place to live. As soon as someone gets control of the their mortgage, they typically upgrade to a flasher place, regardless of how good their current one is.

This is incredibly wasteful and damaging to the environment. But it is also human nature.
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October 12, 2014 7:47pm
nasska

The trades people sure know how to charge Griff. Plumbers & electricians are worse than lawyers but not as bad as pump specialists.

We installed a 6KW diesel generator about ten years ago mostly because of the need to keep the electric fences operating. When we get power cuts they’re not for ten minutes….usually five hours plus up to a couple of days & it’s been a boon.
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October 12, 2014 7:52pm
freemark

@ griff.
Yeah, under $3K/kW now is easy over 3kW on an easy roof, even with the best kit. We can’t rely on high FIT’s – why should a retailer pay above their normal costs for a potentially disruptive system? That’s why it’s important to size according to your usage profile & needs. I disagree re: Micro’s – they will always cost more to buy & install, and the way of the future is hybrid central Inverters – current ones easily swapped out or revamped to suit storage.
You are better to go Solar PV for your hot water, unless you have a source of free gas.
FYI a 5kW system will give you around 34,000km per annum in a Tesla S 🙂
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October 12, 2014 7:52pm
Harriet

Kea’s gone all conservative.
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October 12, 2014 8:16pm
Griff

The price of the equipment is dropping by the day
In the last year the replacement cost of the controller on my boat system has dropped by 20% as has the panels replacement cost. I installed my boat system around seven years ago at a cost of $12 watt (pre mppt technology) to replace would be $3 watt and be more efficient to boot.
One big inverter means you are routing dc from the panels a considerable cost in wiring extra hardware and installation If it craps you must replace the entire box at $3,000 plus. with micros you just replace the ns one at around $250 the wiring is ac 240v hence smaller and safer and it doesn’t need all the extra linkage and fusing etc that dc requires.
With a single inverter the lowest generating panel will drag the entire strings efficiency down(even a single bird turd will effect your output). whereas micros will stop that effect only lowering the effected panels output.
All panels installed on grid connect roof systems must be certified hence meet the 25 year 80% output guarantee.
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October 12, 2014 8:22pm
nasska

Griff

Would it be possible to mount the panels on different buildings & feed the total electricity produced to one distribution point eg house fuse box?
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October 12, 2014 8:37pm
OneTrack

nasska – if your goal is power reliability, then a simple grid-tie invertor won’t be enough and you will need batteries as well ie much more expensive and complicated. With just the grid-tie invertor, when the mains drops, the invertor will disconnect as well.
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October 12, 2014 9:03pm
freemark

Sorry Griff, even with (or due to) all your alarmist skills you are wrong on many points.
The extra cost in running DC rather than micro driven AC cabling is negligible .
A decent MPPT in a quality inverter (with smart stringing) will give you very little output degradation via any unexpected shading ..and if there is any our supplier, or us, will know of the output drop often before the system owner, and will rectify accordingly.
Micros are not economically upgradeable (hardware or firmware), not futureproofed at all, and IMCO only beneficial with a known moving shade path – and then only when you have no room for extra modules to compensate for output loss.
Good luck with your self gen however.
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October 12, 2014 9:09pm
nasska

OneTrack

Power reliability in Masterton where we’ll retire to isn’t so important as the creaking system seems to hold together better there. Out in the boo aye where my acreage is we dream of such luxury.
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October 12, 2014 9:19pm
Griff

Yip but
wiring costs money copper is not cheap The more distance you run power the more you waste .

If you are worried about supply cuts (I live within sight of ak city but 50km by road and power cuts are a monthly occurrence even this close to auckland) you need to know the most grid tie systems wont work if the power line is out.

An off grid system costs a lot more as you need to store sufficient juice to supply your needs for a week. Batteries are expensive relatively short lasting at ten years max inclined to be high maintenance and only last if you dont draw them below 50% charge .
On the boat I had around 600 amp hours at a cost of two grand using deep cycle lead acid batteries. This would not run a normal house. You would need at least 2,000 amp hours so say an extra $7,000 over the costs free mark was quoting plus you have to adjust usage to your supply. This can mean not being able to wash clothes when its cloudy watching usage in winter etc
Ok for a single tech savvy guy who finds the whole deal an interesting hobby not so good when a skirt who just wants to plug in not matter what is around.
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October 12, 2014 9:20pm
Griff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_micro-inverter
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October 12, 2014 9:20pm
IGM

Fairfax are on the left-wing trail again. Losers who want state houses in top locations, a teacher on second marriage, who can’t budget and control himself, and a couple who want to buy a mansion in top area for first home. I am sick of these socialist-inspired whingers. Work harder and control yourselves, it is your responsibility, not taxpayers/government.
Wimpy Paker having a grease to murderous Muslims, thinks he should have a say in new terrorist/travel laws . . . what a loser. Tighten up on these Muslim killers, if they transgress, deport them and their hangers-on.
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October 13, 2014 7:16am

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