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September 8, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 8 September 2014

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EAD

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John Key will today announce “that without a deterioration in the economy or a natural disaster, National, if re-elected, would deliver modest tax cuts at some point in the next term”

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10470341/Tax-cuts-maybe-at-some-point

Tax cuts – hurrah!

Wait – its tax cuts that “might” happen and if they do, they would be “modest” – aha!

That’s not even the usual ‘jam tomorrow’, it is ‘jam day after tomorrow – perhaps, but definitely some jam at some time in the future – if you elect me!’

And Iron Clad John thinks we’ll believe him?

Not any longer, sorry, unlike the National Party we plebs do learn from our mistakes.

Time for a change
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September 8, 2014 8:01am
duggledog

We had some lifestyler Greenie wankers upstream from us when we were farming. Naturally, they never sprayed their river boundaries because they like to pick blackberries; so every year around this time, spring, we had to go and pull ragwort, spray gorse, blackberry, you name it because all the seeds came downstream in the winter flooding. They were very unpopular in the district.

See, Russell, you won’t know this being from a desert country, and a city boy at that, but those are the ramifications of your sweeping policy making farmers fence off their waterways. We have streams and rivers that tend to go a bit crazy.

Weeds, having expensive fencing wiped out every few years due to flooding, and also losing acres of productive pasture.

But, whatever, right?

BTW, we used to fence off our stream and river with a hot wire so the cows didn’t get in and foul it up or erode the banks. F***ing greenies. Wait till you get one as a neighbour.
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September 8, 2014 8:01am
EAD

A point of principle as well when you hear the MSM reporting on “tax cuts”: You NEVER borrow to pay for tax cuts. That’s not possible by definition. What you borrow for is to pay for your spending. Tax cuts are simply Politicians robbing the people a little bit less of their own money, you don’t GIVE them anything.
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September 8, 2014 8:04am
Dennis Horne

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/09/jamie_whytes_hard_hitting_speech.html#comments

KevinH (1,163 comments) says: September 7th, 2014 at 8:51 pm The problem with classical liberalism is that it is elitist, the masses can’t relate to it and also it is intellectually dishonest in that the concepts inherent to the libertarian ethos is self centred individualism, concepts that don’t fit or work in practice.

We are a social animal. We are not born equal nor can we become equal. We live in a society. We make society and society makes us. (Words that spring to mind are: fair, decent, responsibility, probity, prudence, discipline.) This does not come about by chance. Requires rational thinking and pragmatic intervention.
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September 8, 2014 8:04am
Viking2

Off line for a couple of days. Haven’t notice any Cunnliffe stunts reported for the weekend.

Somethings wrong.
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September 8, 2014 8:07am
Griff

Only if we are running a surplus and debt free should tax cuts or more spending be on the agenda.
We still have the massive overhang of us baby boomers looming. A future cost in superannuation that makes the books present state all the more scary.
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September 8, 2014 8:09am
hj

Good that Jamie Whyte comes out clear as crystal on foreign investment etc. It will crystalise the debate. The left is weak here having been hamstrung by “leftists of the internationalist tradition” spouting xenophobia when (in fact) the Xenophobes aren’t always wrong.
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September 8, 2014 8:09am
oldpark

Was waiting for breaking news from Cunliffe’s breakfast show on Mike Hoskins Newstalk ZB.Heard a rumour that Cunliffe on the CGT a code word for INHERITANCE/DEATH TAX by Labour/Green could be a lot worse.He would say Labour would only take 15% from the family home ,and Nana’s grandchildrens education and wedding savings nest egg.The other part of the plan would be his commie mates from ” GREEN “PARTY Russel Norman/Turei would go for broke, and take a massive 40% INHERITANCE/DEATH TAX.Cunliffe said his party didn’t want to frighten the horses,by going for 40% right away.There would be plenty of time in the next three years to match his commie” green” party’s 40%.HIS COALITION MATES.
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September 8, 2014 8:12am
duggledog

Up to 25 workers allegedly to be laid off Maori TV’s ‘Te Kaea’ news programme:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11320552

WTF? How many people did they need?

Gravy. Jobs for people to keep them busy, on a TV station nobody watches, funded to the tune of $50,000,000 per annum. Did we learn nothing from the 1980s?
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September 8, 2014 8:14am
KiwiGreg

Really EAD? “Time for a change” because the Nats might give tax cuts. Change to parties which WILL substantially increase taxes?
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September 8, 2014 8:15am
Keeping Stock

What KiwiGreg said – when it comes to tax, less is more 😀
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September 8, 2014 8:24am
Interested

duggledog (1,460 comments) says:

September 8th, 2014 at 8:14 am

Up to 25 workers allegedly to be laid off Maori TV’s ‘Te Kaea’ news programme:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11320552

and the rest of the article is:
Up to 25 people could see their jobs axed as Maori Television ditches its Te Kaea news show, Mana leader Hone Harawira claimed late last night.

He was responding to reports that today, the company’s chairwoman, former National Cabinet minister Georgina te Heuheu, will brief Maori Affairs Minister Pita Sharples about a restructuring that could cost jobs.

However, Maori Television denied Mr Harawira’s claims.
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September 8, 2014 8:27am
EAD

errrrr no Greg,

If you think I’m hinting that we should give the Red Team a go, you probably haven’t read any of my posts.

The truth is, National Party supporters on this blog if they were to look even mildly behind the garbage being spewed forth by Key an English, they would realise the National Party has long abandoned their conservative roots and are now at best Labour-lite, at worst, full blown Marxist. Listen how they talk about “the costs of tax cuts”

They have fallen completely for the Marxist line: it won’t cost the Government a cent – it will simply allow them to take less money from taxpayers.

I mean “Funding” tax cuts !?!!?

No real right-wing person would speak or think in those terms.
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September 8, 2014 8:27am
Nukuleka

Megan Woods Labour MP for Wigram (and failed Christchurch Mayoral candidate) put in a once only appearance at Mass yesterday. Although she didn’t actually party political broadcast during her short speech, when she left half way through her red Labour rosette wearing acolytes stayed on (also never seen before at mass) and delivered a Labour spiel to the captive congregation before the final blessing. They then stood at the porch after mass distributing Labour pamphlets.

Not sure that we’ll be seeing the Nats or any other party being given this sort of preferential treatment by the parish priest.
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September 8, 2014 8:27am
flipper

A message for EAD…
the same as the one sent to Red yesterday.

Give us a 300 word (max) bullet point EAD/Red/EAD manifesto so that we all know exactly what it is you are seeking.

And do not forget the old, proven, maxim – politics is (like diplomacy) the art of the possible – unkess you want a hydra-headed Frankenstein monster government troika as Prime Minister, namely red russel, CminusT, and the McGillisilly woman.
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September 8, 2014 8:29am
duggledog

Ha ha ha the bogan waster unemployable clown Tillbury is on TV1 Breakfast fronting for the cameras about his out of control party on the weekend.

He’s so contrite.

The contrition is because the hound that whelped him will be worried she’s going to lose her State House.

Shit heads like this don’t deserve state assistance at all. They are the ones that cost the taxpayer a fortune. Repairs, police attention, noise control, it all adds up.

The undeserving poor. There are thousands of them
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September 8, 2014 8:32am
Gulag1917

University economics teaching isn’t an education: it’s a £9,000 lobotomy
Economics took a battering after the financial crisis, but faculties are refusing to teach alternative views. It’s as if there’s only one way to run an economy.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/09/university-economics-teaching-lobotomy-non-mainstream
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September 8, 2014 8:38am
EAD

@ Flipper:

I’ll offer you 2 words: Nigel Farage.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farage/10868079/Nigel-Farage-says-Ukip-will-cut-taxes-for-rich-and-poor.html

You know, the party that came from nowhere to topple the Tories & Labour parties in the UK which ran on an unashamedly right wing manifesto. Remember Reagan & Thatcher who were the 2 most wildly popular Leaders in the Western World in recent years.

The National Party used to make the arguments that lower taxes simulated growth and that confiscating nearly half of someone’s income in via direct or indirect taxes is economic slavery therefore immoral. You don’t hear them making those arguments anymore, which is why I support The Conservatives & Act (I have great respect for both their leaders as I believe them sincere).
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September 8, 2014 8:44am
IGM

APN should be investigated for their bias, taking a look at the front page of Labour-driven Herald, it is a bloody disgrace. All you get is that gutless goose-faced Cunliffe, then turn the radio on and Hosking has the arsewipe on there as well. Come on advertisers, time these APN pricks are given a wide berth.
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September 8, 2014 8:46am
Keeping Stock

Poor form by Napier police not to prosecute the female streaker at the rugby on Saturday night. If it had been a bloke, the streaker would have had the book thrown at them.

Streakers who want to tick off bucket lists or flaunt their bodies for whatever reason are a blight on the game. Instead of providing a deterrent, the police have effectively legitimised this stupidity in the future. Not prosecuting this individual sets an unfortunate precedent.
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September 8, 2014 8:48am
lurcher1948

Hell Duggledog of to a fine start today,3 posts all ready,are you not working???hard at this time of the year.
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September 8, 2014 8:50am
Griff

IGM
Having Cun*liffe in the news is brilliant if you vote right
Even die hard lefty’s think hes a brain dead smarmy tosser.
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September 8, 2014 8:51am
EAD

@ Gulag:

Here is a link to the best economics “course” in the world: http://mises.org/daily/

If you want to learn about the application of economics in a real life setting(rather than MSM smoke and mirrors) http://www.zerohedge.com/
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September 8, 2014 8:53am
duggledog

Lurcher

I’m financially comfortable. I work when I need to!
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September 8, 2014 8:55am
IGM

duggledog: Sold some Greenie lifestyler a couple of ewes . . . what a wanker, came back after about eight months wanting them replaced, they had not been dagged, drenched, shorn, and their feet were a bloody mess. Would not use footrot treatments, dip, or drench . . . what a joke! Imagine these bastards with a bit of power. Thanks to these tossers can’t buy fly strike powder anymore either.
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September 8, 2014 8:56am
Inthisdress

Sorry
Is all that you can’t say
Years gone by and still
Words don’t come easily
Like sorry like sorry

Forgive me
Is all that you can’t say
Years gone by and still
Words don’t come easily
Like forgive me forgive me

But you can say baby
Baby can I hold you tonight
Maybe if I told you the right words
At the right time you’d be mine

I love you
Is all that you can’t say
Years gone by and still
Words don’t come easily
Like I love you I love you
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September 8, 2014 8:57am
G152

The greens with their ‘fencing off waterways’ have a number of questions to answer.
1) Who is going to be available to do all this fencing?
2) As fencing timber is tanalised pine and therefor contains poisons what are they going to use instead?
3) When flooding destroys most of that fencing will the rebuild be covered by insurance and will the
replacement fence have to be re-erected within a certain time limit?
4) And just who is available to do all this extra work?
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September 8, 2014 9:02am
flipper

EAD, Red et al …

One thing to wish, quite another to achieve.

Try sitting inside the tent to piss outside, and you can then work toward what you want, without sliding on defecation.

Anything else and you are flapping your redundant “wings” while wallowing in what you your ilk pass..
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September 8, 2014 9:03am
RF

Mike Hosking had thumb head on his show for over an hour this morning. Cunners reminds me of the energiser bunny as rather than answer questions he broke into chanting his labour crap in a loud voice whenever he could.

He maintains that although Labour are in the mid 20s its National who are in trouble. He is mad.

Mike had to pull him back a few times to remind him it was not a party political broadcast.
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September 8, 2014 9:04am
Ross12

I see the Greens think that if National win and ACT get an MP or several MPs the OIC will definitely be scrapped. I think Norman must seriously believe if the Left get in, that all his Green policies will be implemented.
John Key has already said scraping the OIC is not a goer.

I think the right block in NZ politics have been very wise in this campaign. They have left their campaigns and announcements of policy change ideas to very close to election day. The MSM have “re-educated” our attention spans to being very short so most will only remember what they hear in the last few weeks. Who can remember any Labour or Green policies announce a month ago ?
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September 8, 2014 9:06am
publicwatchdog

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How about the undeserving rich on ‘corporate welfare’?

Could NZ save $40 BILLION a year at central government level – by opening the books and cutting out the consultants and private contractors – whose cost-effectiveness to the public majority has not been proven by an independent ‘cost-benefit analysis’?

Independent research by the USA Project On Government Oversight – POGO – back in September 2011 proved that contracting-out was TWICE as expensive as former in-house service provision – which proves that the ‘public is bad – private is good’ ACT Party / Rogernomics / neo-liberal mantra is pure, unadulterated BULLSHIT?

(Oops! Engineering workshop moment / language …)

Check it for yourselves – seek truth from facts – sort of thing?

Penny Bright
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September 8, 2014 9:07am
Nostalgia-NZ

The Ombudsman has given JK until the end of the week to reveal who in the PM’s office took the briefing from the SIS regarding the OIA request in 2011. I don’t know what the ‘powers’ the Ombudsman has to make JK comply, though it must be in the Act. 2011 seems to be a significant year in which it appears that members of Cabinet ‘using’ of the OIA by proxy may have begun. Whatever the case, how broad is the distinction between an act by a member of the PM’s office and an act by the PM him or herself? There is an argument that there is none, any submission otherwise is a concession that any MP can blame their ‘office’ for doing something that was an expedient for the MP or their party. For those concerned about ‘dirty politics’ it should be of note that the Law provides for transparency – even for those that try to avoid transparency, or ‘forget’ or wish the public to ‘move on’ perhaps because the act or omission was dated. In this case, 2011 is the same year in which it is claimed that another minister was gunning for the head of SFO, so clearly it is not dated according to the Ombudsman or the PM who stood Collins down on the ‘strength’ of a letter not written by her.

As for tax cuts, the majority don’t seem to favour them according to some polls. That could be because of the sobering since the ‘crash,’ or awareness that cuts are still underway to reduce spending from the public purse. Bill English has earlier said we can’t afford it, I’ve heard some economists say we can – instinct however is that we have been on the right track with the public saving, that’s personal responsibility and avoiding borrowing. Because of all the controversy the ‘hard’ messages are lost in this election. New car sales are at a high, that doesn’t speak of the need for tax cuts, housing is moving on – probably never to be controlled but driven by the market, crime rates are falling, recidivism is falling, dairy prices have tightened and forestry activity is retracted, Auckland is still polluting its harbour by uncovered and unfiltered storm water drains, there are new muscle beds in the Rangitoto channel and further toward Okahu Bay – seems like a good time to keep fiscal restraints in place at least until the political scene rights itself.
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September 8, 2014 9:08am
MT_Tinman

Keeping Stock
September 8th, 2014 at 8:48 am

I disagree.

If streakers (one per game) wish to run across the field naked without interfering with the game, followed by a group of “security” people I say let them.

As long as they are ejected (or remove themselves) from the venue immediately no further punishment need apply.

I refer you to the story, retold by Bob Jones, of the 90 year old gentleman who tottered out naked during a County cricket match in England many moons ago.

Far from chasing and tackling him the authorities assisted him (I believe an invitation to jump over the stumps was refused), helped him off the field then all carried on as before.

Everyone had fun, as was intended.

As for Hanson’s bullshit in today’s paper Mr Hanson should understand that the streaker, naked and therefore weapon-less (including the fellows normally 😉 , hold no danger to his players who spend 80 minutes each game banging into each other at full tilt.

On second thought maybe Hanson is worried about the “security” people, never the brightest pennies. 🙂
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September 8, 2014 9:10am
Dennis Horne

Muscle beds in the Rangitoto Channel? Good gracious. Count me in … 🙂 🙂 🙂
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September 8, 2014 9:14am
EAD

@ flipper

When National were elected in 2008, they were elected with a huge mandate because this country was sick to it’s back teeth of Labour and their wasteful spending, social engineering and nanny-statism. Key had a mandate to implement radical change for the better like Labour did in the 1980’s.

The Helen Clark days look like halcyon days now. Back then the Labour party only had the cajones to push through “civil unions” and run small deficits, pass comparatively minor nanny-state rules (they didn’t dream of plain packaging or the new draconian drink drive limits) etc.

John Key has pi**ed away the once in a generation opportunity to fix this country but in the name of being “popular” he pi**ed it away against the wall. You use the glib line “politics is the art of the possible”, I say courage is doing what is right. I am doing my bit at a local level – the back-slapping snakepit of Wellington is not my style.
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September 8, 2014 9:17am
SGA

@Inthisdress at 8:57 am
I like the Tracy Chapman version better – don’t give up your day job.
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September 8, 2014 9:18am
kowtow

nukuleaka

If Labourites (or any other political organisation)got to speak at Mass ,during Mass, even within the Church building or to distrubte material on th grounds then there’s something very wrong with that parish. At the very least I’d be writing to the bishop, and if you don’t get satisfation then to the conference of bishops to object. Canvass other parishoners to see what they think.

Go on over to the Being Frank blog and lob a post there too. A letter to the Catholic paper will get noticed. Can’t stay silent in the face of this .
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September 8, 2014 9:19am
Dennis Horne

The return of the Pin-Up-Prime Minister will save the cuntry. We’re fucked already.
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September 8, 2014 9:19am
Ross12

Now I know the Greens are mad

https://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/24921505/green-party-to-invest-500m-in-wellington-transport/

This has to be the craziest election bribe I have seen ( and I live in Wellington). I know they have a lot of support in Wellington but if they do not realise that a city needs business to survive and therefore the population to support these fantasies then they do not deserve to get anywhere near the Treasury benches.

Wellington needs more business before this. BP have just shifted their HO to Auckland because of the crazy earthquake over reaction. 200 less jobs in town.

The Green controlled Council have found they had $45 million unspent from previous budgets –what do they do ? Off to find some pet projects to spend it on. No thought of saving it to offset future rates increases.
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September 8, 2014 9:20am
Pete George

#VotePositive has been forgotten (or never taken on board) by @nzlabour activists at The Standard who are obsessing about #DirtyPolitics while hypocritically going hard out negative with no positive posts at all.

“Vote Positive” and The Standard are as divorced from reality as Labour.
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September 8, 2014 9:26am
Sublime

Pete George: ” … activists at The Standard who are obsessing about #DirtyPolitics”

It’s their only shot and they know it. Their party’s modus operandi has left them no choice but to ram the scandal as far and hard up National’s backside as they can. Their leaders focused on trying to land blows on the blue chin rather than introduce new red policy that sells. Only themselves to blame.
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September 8, 2014 9:32am
publicwatchdog

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The Office of the Prime Minister, which is the highly politically partisan nest of National Party spin doctors, led by the Prime Minister’s Chief of Staff Wayne Eagleson, should have NOTHING to do with the SIS – end of story.

Dealings with the SIS should be handled by the politically neutral, impartial, apolitical Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet (DPMC).

How on earth did the Office of the Prime Minister end up so completely OUT OF CONTROL?

Penny Bright
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September 8, 2014 9:36am
publicwatchdog

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Dirty politics is now a political REALITY in NZ.

FACT.

Penny Bright
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September 8, 2014 9:39am
mandk

@ Ross12

$500 million is a fantasy figure from the land where money grows on trees.

The Edinburgh tramway (>$2 billion for a single 14 km route) is a great example of how a green per project is likely to suffer a mega cost blow out and saddle tax and rate payers with huge debts.
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September 8, 2014 9:40am
stigie

Keep on going Penny…

All you are doing is giving more votes to National !~
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September 8, 2014 9:41am
srylands

“publicwatchdog (2,373 comments) says:
September 8th, 2014 at 9:07 am
How about the undeserving rich on ‘corporate welfare’?

Could NZ save $40 BILLION a year at central government level – by opening the books and cutting out the consultants and private contractors”
_______
I so wish this blog had a mute or “disappear” button.
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September 8, 2014 9:44am
cas

i think the main problem with Cunliffe apart from his lack of veracity, huge ego, corporate wank words etc, is that you can’t see his eyes. Never trust anyone when you can’t see their eyes.
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September 8, 2014 9:46am
trout

The Left just don’t get it do they. Power Companies are now in a position to pay higher dividends to the Govt. than thy did before privatization. (As part owners of Genesis the Crown will receive twice as much as they did in the best year) Privatization has meant better control, higher efficiency and full accountability. Contrast this to Solid Energy, an SOE fully owned by the Crown that was left to go on its own way with encouragement by the Labour/Greens to develop ‘green’ technology. The company lost millions and would have gone bust if it was private. The reaction to the success of partial privatization is predictable; Cosgrove say it is ‘total bunkum’, Norman says ‘it was hard to see how partial privatization could have added so much value to the Companies’.
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September 8, 2014 9:46am
kowtow

Another beheading! This is the second to a Lebanese soldier . Compare the MSM’s coverage of the 2 American reporters beheaded or indeed the over reporting of a shooting in Ferguson USA of a robber by the poice there.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746431/My-son-s-slaughtered-Mother-s-agony-learns-Lebanese-soldier-son-s-beheading-IS-militants-Twitter-tried-escape-captivity.html
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September 8, 2014 9:50am
Sublime

Trout: The Left just don’t get it do they

Mate, most still refer to partial privatisation as “asset sales.” They’ve got a long way to go before they begin to understand the rest of it properly! 😀
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September 8, 2014 9:51am
Griff

srylands (398 comments) says:
RIP In fire fox
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/remove-it-permanently/
Will remove the strange empty echo you are experiencing.
Me I have a mighty strong scroll finger due to daily work outs.
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September 8, 2014 9:51am
RF

I have been told Cosgrove has adverts in some North Canterbury newsletter telling everyone how good he is and he is your go to man.

One advert has a response with photo from Frank Endacott the league guy who has thanked Cosgrove for helping him out on a local issue.

Clayton must be running out of friends as this same story was used back in 2011. It did not work then either.
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September 8, 2014 10:04am
Redbaiter

“Give us a 300 word (max) bullet point EAD/Red/EAD manifesto so that we all know exactly what it is you are seeking.”

You seem so unaware of the problem Flipper. I’ll tell you what I want soon but first you have to know what I do not want and that is a National Party that is shaped not by its founding principles, which are notable for their aversion to socialism, but by left wing cultural mores.

The National Party along with most parties in the West who claim to offer an alternative to the left have completely failed to fight on the battlefield that allowed the left to win the political war. That battlefield is our culture, and without recognising it, the Nats like the Conservatives in the UK have been soundly beaten on that front.

We don’t like that Flipper. we don’t like the left taking our culture and changing it. We want our traditional culture and we will not support politicians who will not fight for it or worse, like John Key, are as progressive as Labour. These politicians have no place in National.

Your need for clarification on this issue is somewhat mystifying Flipper. How can you miss that all over the west, political groups are arising with the same message. They have had it up to here with so called small government low tax individual liberty & responsibility parties who have not stood firm and have caved in to the left’s cultural onslaught. Or worse, have become the left, like the Conservatives in the UK and the Republicans in the US and the Nats in NZ.

Especially so in NZ. Under the weak and craven supplication of John Key. Such a useless little surrender monkey I call him Helen Key and I am done supporting surrender monkeys. I am never going to vote or support National again. They betrayed me once too often and most markedly when they caved in to the far left Louisa walls and redefined traditional marriage. That did it for me. A complete and utterly gutless surrender, and it was Key up front waving the white flag.

As for what I want, once again, I’m puzzled that its not clear to you. I want National to start dismantling the all powerful high taxing high spending state. I know it can’t be done overnight but Key shows no signs of understanding how urgent the task is or even any interest in that task,.

I want him to live up to the ideas he expressed when in opposition. AGW is a scam. Maori seats are unnecessary. Budget needs to be cut by 10% a year ntil its back to pre 1950 levels. Borrowing to fund overspending should stop. A massive oversupply of govt depts should be cut, especially those that interfere in our culture. (close down three a year)

We dislike fawning to the tyrants of Red China. We dislike pandering to Maori. We want our education system free from the clutches of the left and to stop it being used as an indoctrination tool (privatise it)

We dislike social engineering. We dislike being told we must accept into our midst people from an entirely different culture and that we must modify our own culture to suit their preferences. Stop immigration from foreign cultures. Encourage NZers to breed their own replacements. We don’t like the left driving cultural change. We like and value our culture the way it is and we want the Nats to understand that and fight to preserve it.

We want civility restored to our societies. We don’t want a hugely powerful state with a million laws we want a civil society with a weak state, a small police force and an innate respect for law and order and private property. We want the patriarchial family unit restored as the cornerstone of culture. The good family makes the good neighbourhood that makes the good town that makes the good country. Helen Klark style social engineering will never take the place of this.

I could go on trying to explain this to you Flipper, but I’m well over the 300 word limit. I’ll end by saying I know within myself that these words will just drift past you and the Nats for you are a lost cause. You have become the enemy you once professed to stand against. That’s why I don’t care about you understanding anymore. I just want you gone. In your weakness and supplication and surrender I want you out of my face and I want change to come and it won’t come through the JK lead National Party.

David Farrar said he’d rather see the country fall into the hands of the left rather than see the Nats enter into a coalition with NZF. I feel the same about the Nats. Fuck ’em. And if NZ in general thinks this is the way to go, making the only choice at election time between extreme left progressives and far left progressives, well fuck them too. They can learn the hard way.
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September 8, 2014 10:16am
Nukuleka

Great to see Penny out and about once again meeting and greeting the good souls of the Helensville electorate, and working hard to earn their votes.

NOT.
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September 8, 2014 10:24am
kowtow

Yeah I have to completly agree with posters who say that conservatives are trying to wind back the clock ad take us back to a dead boring New Zealand of the Fifties, our culture has changed and is so vibrant now, full of positive and exciting night life,our streets filled with the joyous sounds of youths having great and positive experiences. The community policeman, someone we all know and admire just needs to have a quiet word in the ear and all is well again.

Another example of our culture or what’s left of it. And frighteningly the police with new knee jerk powers granted by parliament will go after “suppliers”,all in a vain attempt to stem the tide of what some idiots think is “progress” .

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10469537/Party-of-500-has-police-scrambling
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September 8, 2014 10:31am
minus

srylands – I so wish this blog had a mute or “disappear” button.

It does. It is the little red thumb-down icon. Just click on it to do your part. Simple.
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September 8, 2014 10:36am
Lindsay Addie

Re the woman streaking during the All Blacks vs Argentina game I think she should have been shown no mercy by the cops. I personally don’t find it at all interesting that these stupid individuals are overrun by narcissism.

This stuff isn’t a joke when one remembers in 1993 Monica Seles was stabbed because of poor security at a WTA tournament in Germany when a nutcase with a boning knife got onto the court.
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September 8, 2014 10:38am
kowtow

lindssay addie

Yep ,by failing to charge they send the wrong message and fail to enforce the law they are sworn to uphold. part of our new ‘vibrant’ culture.

Here’s the excellent Theodore Dalrymple on culture.

http://www.skepticaldoctor.com/work/our-culture-whats-left-of-it-the-mandarins-and-the-masses/
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September 8, 2014 10:45am
Fletch

Poor form by Napier police not to prosecute the female streaker at the rugby on Saturday night. If it had been a bloke, the streaker would have had the book thrown at them.

The more probable reason is that she was Maori. The man who recently streaked was fined. So was Lisa Lewis who only ‘streaked’ in a bikini. It’s all to do with political and cultural correctness and fear of the cry of racism.
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September 8, 2014 10:45am
Redbaiter

Know what?

Many kids are themselves aware of how corrupt the education system is and are bewildered that their parents have allowed it to happen and are apparently content to let it remain.

Parents are betraying their children by tolerating NZ’s politically corrupt education system, and the children know it.
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September 8, 2014 10:46am
publicwatchdog

Actually had a lovely and VERY productive day out in Helensville yesterday.

Didn’t see John Key out and about.

Seems that John Key won’t be at the candidates’ meeting tonight out in Titirangi.

Pity.

Penny Bright
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September 8, 2014 10:47am
IGM

public dog: JK would be avoiding you as one would a rabid left-wing leeching rates dodging dog.
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September 8, 2014 10:49am
ross411

I’ve been mulling over the strange situation of ‘Ofa Ta’ufo’ou. Here’s a guy who is reputed to have received a lot of money, had a recent 7 week holiday in the United States and yet is so concerned he is failing his family, that he goes to the newspaper. What I wonder is why stuff didn’t call CYFS about this parent who was receiving large amounts of money and going on long holidays in overseas countries, yet was as far as I can tell neglecting his children.

I’m of a mind to call CYFS, as I am quite concerned about this. And then to call stuff and ask why they didn’t.

Can anyone provide solid information about the claim he had a 7 week vacation in the USA?

Any other solid information anyone can provide me to give to CYFS.
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September 8, 2014 10:50am
laworder

Just got an answer back from Andrew Little who I wrote to at the suggestion of Pete George.
He answered very promptly and thoroughly too. 10/10 for his quick and comprehensive response;

“Labour does not support the three strikes law because it has the potential to result in sentences that are disproportionate to the offending. It presupposes that a lengthy prison sentence is effective in changing offenders’ behaviour. Evidence suggests addressing literacy, mental health, addiction and other issues, whether in prison or out of it, is more effective in stopping recidivism.

On the issue of name suppression, the presumption is that defendants in court are not entitled to name suppression. There are exceptions, usually related to protecting victims. In our view, judges must be left to make these judgements based on all the information before them. Suppression orders, when made, can be appealed by affected parties, including victims. As for removal of name suppression post-conviction, a judgement must be made about whether lifting name suppression a long time after conviction and completion of sentence, in particular where there has been no repeat offending, best serves the interests of justice. That is a matter for judges to weigh up based on the information before them.”

So there you have it. Labour will want to repeal Three Strikes and wont touch Name Suppression. As I thought, but it is good to have clarity from the horses mouth as it were

Regards
Peter J
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September 8, 2014 10:51am
Lindsay Addie

kowtow,

Thanks for that, I’ll have to get hold of Dalrymple’s book and have a read.

Overall modern culture is full of inane acts of narcissism like selfies. Also the trash posted online at websites like Facebook and Twitter highlights the banal and shallow side of modern society.
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September 8, 2014 10:52am
Griff

😆
Reds reading El ingenioso hidalgo don Quijote de la Mancha again.

Cervantes describes Quixote’s growing obsession with conservationism saying, “he so immersed himself in those romances that he spent whole days and nights over his books; and thus with little sleeping and much reading his brains dried up to such a degree that he lost the use of his reason”
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September 8, 2014 10:53am
Fletch

An interesting article, based on several books, which claims that the Dark Ages were NOT caused by the Visigoths – the so-called Barbarians of the North – but rather the invasion by Muslims. The Visigoths invaded, sure, but adopted many of the Roman ways, and trade continued as before. Civilisation moved forward. It was the invasion by the followers of Islam that killed anything scholarly and led to the period we now refer to as the Dark Ages

The Belgian historian Henri Pirenne asked a related question: what, in fact, caused the Dark Ages? In his posthumous Mohammed and Charlemagne (1939), Pirenne contested the conventionally accepted explanation for the fall of classical civilization: the formal dissolution of the Western Roman Empire in 476, following its descent into decadence, paved the way for a barbarism that led inexorably to the subsequent Dark Ages of the 7th to 10th centuries.

Pirenne observed that the governing barbarians did not obliterate the Roman infrastructure, and that the overall modus vivendi carried on much like it had, prior to its fall, because the “barbarians” adopted the prevailing Roman ethos. They did not foist their own language, laws, or customs on Rome.

Pirenne stressed that the source of the Roman Empire’s vitality cannot be disassociated from its essentially Mediterranean character and orientation; that clearly remained intact for quite a while. Western trade flourished as before, connected with the great cities of the East – where prosperity, population, and learning were concentrated. The overall features of life throughout the region in 600 were similar to what they had been in 400.

It was not until the advent of Islam in the 7th century, precisely then and only then, that destruction really arrived. Recurrent Islamic raids altered the very orientation of the littoral peoples; they fled the Mediterranean and for the first time looked to the north. East was severed from West, and the previously unified Mediterranean, “having become a Musalman lake, was no longer a thoroughfare of commerce and of thought which it always had been.”

Unlike the German invaders, wherever the Arabs went they ruled. This was a dimension of their religious claims. They sought not conversion per se, but demanded subjection, creating an insuperable barrier between the conquered and the Muslims: “What a contrast between them [the Arabs] and Theodoric, who placed himself at the service of those he had conquered, and sought to assimilate himself to them!” The whole region was thereby transformed, as the Arabs ushered in “a complete break with the past.”

Egyptian papyri, which had been widespread in the West (and a solid indicator of literacy), disappeared, as did distinctive coins that were in use right up until the Arab conquest – leading to the barter system. Despite the literary and archaeological sources, however, Pirenne’s arguments were dismissed in favor of the view that Islam had been (unlike “repressive” Christianity) an enlightening force.

In Mohammed and Charlemagne Revisited (2012),Emmet Scott has taken up Pirenne’s thesis. Though he is primarily interested in the controversy it generated, he does not shy away from rendering a verdict: “scholarship has now arrived at several conclusions which are really beyond dispute, and which tend to offer definitive support for Pirenne.”

In the late sixth and early seventh centuries, classical civilization was intact and humming along, even expanding. In fact, some regions were “flourishing as never before”; Spain in particular, as well as Gaul, was enjoying a resurgent late classical culture.

Scott points to the hundreds of known Visigothic-era structures, even noting that by the early 7th century architects had brought back meticulously cut stone; these structures, Scott observes, were “far superior, technically and artistically, to their successors of the tenth century Romanesque.” In fact, the rich Visigothic architectural legacy stands in conspicuous contradistinction to the “virtually complete absence of all archaeology from the first two centuries of the Islamic epoch.” Only in the mid-tenth century do artifacts reemerge.

[…]

Islamic lands, as Naipaul recounts with personalized detail, have tended to experience a measure of what Egypt did so acutely: the effective loss of her own history. Moreover, another highly significant feature is now part of the archaeological record: a layer of sediment found throughout the Mediterranean known as the “Younger Fill.” This stratum of subsoil, which is not confined to the Mediterranean but is found in all the shores occupied by Muslims, represents the “geographical signature of the end of Graeco-Roman civilization.”

This subsoil was deposited between the mid-seventh and mid-tenth centuries, precisely coinciding with the deafening archaeological silence. It can be explained by the wholesale abandonment of irrigational and agricultural systems when the littoral peoples abandoned coastal settlements for hilltop fortifications in response to unremitting Muslim raids.

So they invaded and left nothing but dirt.

What’s interesting is what Chinese scholars have recently found.

Paradoxically, scholars in Communist China, oddly enough, have discovered the truth. As Rodney Stark records in The Victory of Reason, Chinese scholars undertook a lengthy study of what ultimately accounted for the West’s pre-eminence. After decades of investigation, they concluded: not guns, politics, or economics – factors they had felt may have been decisive. Instead, they were led to something deeper:

we have realized that the heart of your culture is your religion: Christianity. That is why the West is so powerful. The Christian moral foundation of social and cultural life was what made possible the emergence of capitalism and then the successful transition to democratic politics. We don’t have any doubt about this.

So, according to the Chinese scholars, it is Christianity that is the reason for the wealth of the West.

http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2014/how-islam-set-back-western-civilization.html
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September 8, 2014 10:54am
Grendel

See red claims to want a small state and not interfere in peoples lives, but he also believes that the state has the power to not let you get married if you want to marry someone of the same sex.

So reds claims of being about a small state and not wishing for more state power are blown out by his own admission, he cannot wait for the chance to use the state to force others to his point of view. all his whining yesterday over daring us to find anywhere he advocated for more state power has been solved in todays post. thanks red for making it clear that you desire big state interference in peoples lives.

commie prog statist that you are.
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September 8, 2014 10:55am
kowtow

The Scandanavian political elites really are traitors . “We are embracing them…….Do you need help……inclusiveness” For a bunch of beheading murderous Muslims!

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2014/09/denmark-introduces-rehab-syrian-fighters-201496125229948625.html
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September 8, 2014 11:01am
Redbaiter

“you desire big state interference in peoples lives.”

You and the far left Lousia Walls used the power of big govt to force a redefinition of traditional marriage that was unwanted and unnecessary.

How come you can’t see the simple fact that you are the big govt statist?

I’ll tell you why.

You’re a low IQ bigot and completely unresponsive to logic and therefore a fertile field for the progressives of the left to grow their ideas in (and a waste of time to anyone else).
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September 8, 2014 11:01am
starboard

Penny Dim…whats your back up plan post election night when you get your arse whipped? What ya gona do ? Where ya gona go ? Who ya gona call ?

You’re toast sister.
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September 8, 2014 11:04am
wreck1080

Kids at skate park given cans containing twice as much caffeine as an espresso despite risk to their health.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11320545

This reminds me — my 5 year old consumed part of a 500ml can of energy drink at the thundercats boat race. From memory, i think they had a barrel full of cans and he and his older brother just grabbed one each.

It made him sick and he vomited when he got home. Wasn’t very happy.
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September 8, 2014 11:11am
kowtow

The redefinition of marriage is an excellent example of what Red is talking about in terms of big state interference in our culture. There was no need for the stste to get more invloved in an ancient institution. The proponents claimed it was about “equality” but still exclude many forms of relationships.So it wasn’t about equality.And it certainly isn’t about libertarianism in which case they might argue scrappingt marriage licensing and law altogether, which they didn’t. What they did do was introduce homosexual marriage. That is not egaitarian. It is the state using its powers to enact social engineering in an attempt to destroy tradition and culture.They seek to use the power of the state to transform our society into an image they want. No say to the electorate.

Neither egalitarian nor libertarian. Cultural marxism transforming and undermining society through big statism.
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September 8, 2014 11:17am
publicwatchdog

So what do you think about Auckland Council’s current exposure to derivatives to the tune of $5.8 BILLION?

Since John Key – former head of derivatives for Merrill Lynch and foreign exchange advisor for the New York Federal Reserve became Prime Minister in 2008, what legislative changes have happened to make it easier for derivatives trading at local and central government level?

And which financial institutions HAVE benefited from increased exposure to derivatives trading?

The Bank of America perchance?

In which NZ Prime Minister John Key is currently a shareholder?

(Check for yourselves pg 30, 2014 MPs Register of Financial Interests.)

Who else is asking these HARD questions of our arguably most spin-doctored politician on the planet?

Penny Bright
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September 8, 2014 11:19am
stephieboy

Fletch, blaming the dark ages on Islam is utterly preposterous and is pseudo history at best..In a plaza in Rome there is an important monument in memory and honour Giordano Bruno martyr to science . It’s at Rome’s Campo de’ Fiori. There in 1600 he was bought forth and burn’t at the stake for heresy as found by the Holy Inquisition . This heresy went one step further than Copernicus and proposed not only earth as part of a heliocentric centre but Giordano Bruno advocated in fact the earth and sun were merely part of a much wider centers with their own suns and exo planets. He also thought the universe infinite.

The consequences of his martyrdom was that scientific inquiry and expansion shriveled up in Southern Europe and shifted to Northern Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

and,

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/08/25/the

That burning at the stake of Giordano Bruno is where the real dark age began.
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September 8, 2014 11:20am
Griff

Red thinks that education is brainwashing
two points
1 Reality has a liberal bent.
2 Religious inspired schools teaching kids that the musings of ignorant goat herders from 2000 years ago are factual and trump science is brainwashing.
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September 8, 2014 11:21am
burt

This guy should have been working at parliament;

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/better-business/10471823/Worker-loses-job-over-fears-he-will-lash-out-again

You get promoted when you do this in parliament !
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September 8, 2014 11:27am
Redbaiter

“The redefinition of marriage is an excellent example of what Red is talking about in terms of big state interference in our culture.”

Yes, and you know what one of the important things about that event was?

It showed finally and completely that the National Party just did not get it.

It caused the Conservatives in NZ society to suddenly realise that the Nats and John Key were not on our side and if we wanted to resist the Progressives we would need to look elsewhere.

That’s what the passing of the Marriage Redefinition Bill did. It awoke us to just how useless and unaware of what is going down the National Party is.
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September 8, 2014 11:32am
publicwatchdog

Small technical point – I got nearly 12,000 votes as a 2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate.

The Helensville electorate is smack bang within the Auckland Supercity boundaries, and what I’m finding is that Helensville folk DO NOT LIKE the Auckland Supercity.

The Auckland Supercity which was railroaded through under the John Key led National Government, without citizens and ratepayers being entitled to our (then) lawful right to a binding vote.

Given that I have proven track record of opposing the Auckland ‘Supercity’ as a CORRUPT CORPORATE COUP from the time Rodney Hide appointed Mark Ford as the head of the Auckland Transition Agency (ATA), I’m happy to report that things are all going rather well out in Helensville, particularly amongst the rural women folk.

We shall see on 20 September 2014.

Penny Bright
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September 8, 2014 11:36am
lolitasbrother

Big splash out in the Bangkok Post yesterday … “Dotcom may change NZ Government”.
And beside it a sort of endorsement from Bryce Edwards, who uses his University salary time to support the left wing.

It recorded Greens as saying Dotcon is destructive.
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September 8, 2014 11:38am
Redbaiter

Peter J-

Thank you for publishing your exchanges with Andrew Little.

Interesting stuff and always appreciative of your efforts. You are a hero.

BTW, I’m not sure that deep down inside himself Little would be fully agreeable with that letter. He’s a bit different to most Prog Labourites.
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September 8, 2014 11:41am
nasska

….”It caused the Conservatives in NZ society to suddenly realise that the Nats and John Key were not on our side and if we wanted to resist the Progressives we would need to look elsewhere.”…..

And look elsewhere they did…..lo, they sought out & got in behind Colin Craig certain that the turkey would lead them backwards in time.

All 3.2% of them. 🙂

Ref: Curia Public Poll Average 5 Sep 2014, Home page KB.
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September 8, 2014 11:44am
Redbaiter

Nasska you’re a nutter. For years now you’ve been posting anti-Christian bigotry and nothing else bar links to childish pictures and worn out tired old attempts at humour.

You’re just yesterday you sad obsessive tiny minded one issue drone.
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September 8, 2014 11:47am
stigie

“The Helensville electorate is smack bang within the Auckland Supercity boundaries, and what I’m finding is that Helensville folk DO NOT LIKE the Auckland Supercity.”

Is there something out there that YOU DO LIKE Penny !!
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September 8, 2014 11:48am
Grendel

Why does everyone forget that Labour started the supercity legislation and national just finished it?

Red, ‘redefining’ marriage (or updating it, as has happened many times since ancient times when women were chattels and arranged and multiple marriages were the norm), was the state correcting an imbalance where the state was impinging in the lives of its citizens.

this is somethign you wish to continue. to use the state to force your views on to others and ban activities you do not like.

a better solution would be to remove the state from marriage altogether, but this was at least the next best step.

now if the legislation made it compulsory for private organisations to marry gay people, that would be an overstep of the state, but that on its own has nothing to do with how correct it was to remove the ban on gay marriage.

but as a low iq, ignorant, commie, marxist prog i doubt you understand that as you pine for the days when you can force your views on others via the state.
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September 8, 2014 11:51am
Fletch

stephie @11.20am, you’ve been watching too much Cosmos. The Bruno thing has been well and truly debunked.
Even the secular Discover Magazine says the show got it wrong.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/outthere/2014/03/10/cosmos-pick-wrong-hero/#.Ux4pbeddUmU
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September 8, 2014 11:59am
Grendel

Penny got 3.41% of the super city vote in 2013. so in my extremely considered opinion, using FACTS she should be stating how she came a DISTANT fourth, otherwise she is guilty of corruption (or something).

based on that, Penny should get 1192 votes (based on total votes last election), anything less and she must admit that her campaign was a total failure and in fact Helensville wants nothing to do with her.

if Penny thinks Helensville is warming to her, she would need to increase her vote by 16-17 times over to get 50% of the vote.

Do you think its likely that you will take 2/3 of JKs votes from last time (considering he got 74% of the total vote).

my extremely considered opinion is that Penny will get around 200 votes, if she is lucky and JK will rock in with upwards of 70% of the votes.

alright that was enough simple maths as a distraction, back to real work now.

Grendel,
78% School C maths
Attendee Marlborough schools gumboot throw – 1983
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September 8, 2014 11:59am
nasska

We all have our idiosyncrasies Baity. I’m sure that you won’t mind me pointing out that you have spent longer preaching your half baked brand of political & social conservatism that most people considered they were well rid of a century ago.

It’s doubtful that you have made one convert which would indicate that to date you have wasted about a fifth of your waking life tilting at windmills.

But don’t let me stop you.
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September 8, 2014 11:59am
Griff

Once there was a conservative christian party remember that redbalther ? The Christian Heritage Party of New Zealand..polled about the same is the New Zealand Conservative party even managed to get one mp.
Remember good christian morals as demonstrated by its leader?
Something about fucking little kids offends me to my liberal core.
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September 8, 2014 12:05pm
Fletch

The Australian taxpayer-funded broadcaster ABC, asks if we should ditch democracy to ensure a climate change response –

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-05/burdon-can-democracies-respond-to-the-climate-crisis/5723152
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September 8, 2014 12:11pm
ross411

publicwatchdog (2,375 comments) says:
September 8th, 2014 at 11:19 am
So what do you think about Auckland Council’s current exposure to derivatives to the tune of $5.8 BILLION?

Since John Key – former head of derivatives for Merrill Lynch and foreign exchange advisor for the New York Federal Reserve became Prime Minister in 2008, what legislative changes have happened to make it easier for derivatives trading at local and central government level?

And which financial institutions HAVE benefited from increased exposure to derivatives trading?

The Bank of America perchance?

In which NZ Prime Minister John Key is currently a shareholder?

(Check for yourselves pg 30, 2014 MPs Register of Financial Interests.)

Who else is asking these HARD questions of our arguably most spin-doctored politician on the planet?

I don’t get it? What are you saying?
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September 8, 2014 12:26pm
ross411

stigie (1,021 comments) says:
September 8th, 2014 at 11:48 am
“The Helensville electorate is smack bang within the Auckland Supercity boundaries, and what I’m finding is that Helensville folk DO NOT LIKE the Auckland Supercity.”

Is there something out there that YOU DO LIKE Penny !!

Mistaking attention in blog comments for relevance?
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September 8, 2014 12:28pm
ross411

Grendel (987 comments) says:
September 8th, 2014 at 11:51 am
Why does everyone forget that Labour started the supercity legislation and national just finished it?

You credit the people with too much intelligence.. Some people blame John Key and National for everything. Global warming too, most likely.. and don’t forget the faked moon landing. I imagine if I googled the standard, and kennedy assassination, I’d find references to Key having been the second gun man on the grassy knoll. And a following comment deriding Collins and placing her somewhere nearby.
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September 8, 2014 12:29pm
ciaron

@Griff,

Are you insinuating that Colin Craig does inappropriate things with minors?

or are you saying that you are against the Conservative Party because of something done by the leader of the Christian Heritage Party?
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September 8, 2014 12:54pm
IGM

public dog: I knew Auckland had a few envious deadbeat losers, but not 12,000.
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September 8, 2014 1:00pm
Fletch

New DNA evidence (taken from a scarf from one of the victims that was never washed) suggests who Jack The Ripper actually was.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746321/Jack-Ripper-unmasked-How-amateur-sleuth-used-DNA-breakthrough-identify-Britains-notorious-criminal-126-years-string-terrible-murders.html
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September 8, 2014 1:05pm
Griff

Just pointing out that christian based conservative political party’s have very little support in secular nz and that often the bigotry they push is due to the members battles with personal corruption more than professed christian faith.
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September 8, 2014 1:13pm
David Garrett

Peter J: My thanks also for publishing Little’s response re 3S…He has hitherto avoided a direct answer, saying they would “look at repeal”…

Although it’s not really funny, it is amusing to me to see the same old “it gives rise to disproportionate sentences” chestnut still being repeated..They raised this point at every stage during the Bill’s passage..I tried it vain to explain that disproportionate outcomes at stages two and three were INTENTIONAL and indeed were the whole point of 3S: Keep offending thus and the consequences for you get exponentially worse…

But break that response down, and you quickly realise they want – or at least are quite happy to permit – violent thugs racking up dozens of convictions with inadequate sentences – reduced still further by the Sentencing and Parole Acts…In other words Little and his party are quite comfortable with assholes like William Bell being able to rack up – in Bell’s case – 102 convictions before being locked up for multiple murder…

Nice to have that clarified.
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September 8, 2014 1:14pm
kowtow

stephie “shriveelled up after 1600? and moved to northern Eu.
Gallileo published in 1632 and continued to work in Italy after his incarceration.

Account also for the scientific work of Luigi Galvani at the University of Bologna,publishing in 1791 and he was shut down by the seclar French re volutionary forces for failing to swear loyalty to the state.

And very famously the anatomy experiments at the University of Padua from 1594 onwards. A school to which scholars from all over Europe (especially northern Europe where such practises were very limited) travelled to to learn.

I think its stephies’ brain shrivelled by bigotry ,ignorance and hate that is the problem here.
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September 8, 2014 1:16pm
Jack5

Re what Ciaron said at 12.45

Griff, I’m not sure your 1.13 post fully clarifies whether you stand by the insinuation in your 12.05 post.

You ought to be more careful. Defamation at that level could cost you every cent you ever saw.
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September 8, 2014 1:19pm

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