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August 9, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 9 August 2014

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General Debate

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hj

Anders Crofoot is Federated Farmers vice president. He came to New Zealand from USA, 16 years ago. He puts his view on the foreign ownership of New Zealand land debate.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/countrylife
………..

I came in cashed up whereas a Kiwi would have had to take on debt. “I could just go ahead and develop”

This is the “Kiwis just cant afford these prices” justification used by Bayley’s real estate in reference to an iconic landscape. As David Parker said on Campbell Live: I don’t want a New Zealand sharemilker to be outbid by a wealthy person or company from overseas.”

“We are a land of immigrants..”

Appeal to tradition fallacy.
….
A program is biased if they don’t air both sides of an argument.
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August 9, 2014 8:01am
duggledog

Dime –

That was me that predicted Millie Holmes’ story would become an ‘Our Millie’ debacle in the NZ Herald. What they do is try to create B and C celebrities out of things like this in order to get ‘exclusive’ stories in even crapper sister publications – Exhibit A: Anna Guy.

Got another prediction for you:

NZ Police will not be able to exhume James Takamore’s body. The Maoris will defy them to the last and just as they did in South Auckland with the murdered Kahui twins, the Police will dither and the whole thing will fizzle out, as the State is terrified of upsetting Maori TM. They’ve already apologised for going about what I would have thought was entirely routine and appropriate Police business in the Ureweras, considering what was going on.

This Takamore situation in particular should be the clarion call for Conservative, ACT and NZ First to take to the constituency leading up to the election. If they can’t make hay out of this, and if NZ can’t see what’s going on now, they never will
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August 9, 2014 8:06am
lolitasbrother

Be fierce and strong people , this is your Country, if you and I will not do it, will you leave your children to socialists, money printers and Hitler ideaism, and see them gone to Cunliffe. Be fierce and strong and we will sort things out soon. Walk on the beach head New Zealanders
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August 9, 2014 8:07am
ChrisM

To show just how stupid Parker’s statement is, sharemilkers wouldn’t be interested in Lochiner. It isn’t that type of farm. The only NZ organisation that could afford it, even at a discount, would be a large corporate. Sharemilkers would be interested in those farms that the US and Scandanavians recently bought, but there is no political capital for xenophobic opposition to them.
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August 9, 2014 8:07am
Longknives

Duggledog- I see ‘Our Millie’s’ tragic lovestory is front page of the Herald again this morning…
The new Anna Guy?
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August 9, 2014 8:08am
Chuck Bird

The discharge without conviction and permanent name suppression for the killer of Stephen Dudley is an outrage. The law must change so judges are better qualified and accountable.
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August 9, 2014 8:12am
FeralScrote

Bizarre phenomena out west,along Henderson Valley rd at collection of political billboards the only board to be graffitied is Hone Harawiras one .LoL
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August 9, 2014 8:16am
hj

ChrisM

So a countries land market should reflect international prices regardless of the fundamentals of the local economy? In whose interest?
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August 9, 2014 8:18am
duggledog

Also – to put the Crafar / Lochinvar ‘crisis’ into perspective –

Middle NZ has a problem with both sales because they are to the Chinese. Absolutely. Nobody gives a shit about selling off parcels to Twain, Cameron etc because quite simply they are PLU.

I daresay most New Zealanders have been to Auckland over the last decade and seen how the place has become swamped with Asians; spitting, creating enclaves, buying all the houses and displaying their wealth by giving their kids brand new BMWs. That’s what they talk about in the provinces and putting the debate about sales to foreigners aside, this one’s all about perception.

Trying to convince Kiwis otherwise is electoral suicide. No idea how this administration is going to sugar coat it, but it’s a lightning rod issue for sure. Simply saying ‘Labour sold way more than us’ isn’t going to cut it.
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August 9, 2014 8:20am
Griff

Millie’s boy friend was a member of a criminal network and dies in a street brawl We are then told how sad the family is
You have made me happy. One less piece of trash in the world. Hope you get to be sad much more often.
Scum scooter trash .
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August 9, 2014 8:23am
hj

Those who say “NZ needs capital” (in relation to purchasing and developing farms) are adding insult to injury. Read the Savings Working Group report (all that is missing is motive: vested interest and progressive internationalism).
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August 9, 2014 8:27am
hmmokrightitis

Dear Silent T,

Just in case you didn’t know, you disgust me. You equivocate about Mana Internet, claiming they will “not form part of a labour led government”. But we all know that means you will look to them for confidence and supply. And we also know that you’ve hung Kelvin Davis out to dry.

Look at what you have become, you pale shadow of a man – a man who apologises for being a man.

You, sir, are not worthy to be considered a leader of anything other than the most feral, morally bereft of people. You should, but I know you will not be, utterly ashamed. And to think the media have closed in and refuse to report your other personal antics.

You morally bankrupt fraud. Beneath contempt, leading the contemptuous.
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August 9, 2014 8:32am
hj

duggledog (1,379 comments) says:
Nobody gives a shit about selling off parcels to Twain, Cameron etc because quite simply they are PLU.
……
They are also popular hero’s (as movie directors and country singers are). Even Tommy Suharto was colourful. That doesn’t apply to a Chinese property developer: evictions, thugs, graft. Cameron is a hero because in his movies those people get their heads blown off.
I think the Chinese are seen as expansionist.
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August 9, 2014 8:33am
David Garrett

Dime: I am with you on the Takamore case…how utterly disgraceful that the Police left the scene “because there was likely to be trouble’…dealing with “trouble” is what they are supposed to do FFS! And you are absolutely right about them being terrified of upsetting maori…imagine what would have happened if the family at the cemetery were white…they would have got one warning for obstruction, and then arrested…

So the situation now is that the highest court in the land – excepting parliament – has decreed that Ms Clark may have her partner’s body to bury where she sees fit…and the Police will not prevent disorder to allow that Order to be effected… that is a very very bad situation…As you say, unless they go in there in sufficient numbers very smartly it’s likely nothing will happen…which will establish the precedent that Orders of the Supreme Court are relegated to the status of suggestions if you are Maori..

Connor Morris was a gang member…there is no such thing as a “good” gang member…once that patch is on the back, you are by definition an “outlaw” – someone who cocks a snook at the law and lives outside it…

And as for the Herald, New Zealand’s former journal of record, its transformation to tabloid is complete…
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August 9, 2014 8:35am
lolitasbrother

err, you do understand do you farrar, medals lost,
we would like to keep our own Country, do you understand farrar
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August 9, 2014 8:36am
lolitasbrother

hmmokrightitis (1,524 comments) says: August 9th, 2014 at 8:32 am
a man with strength in his heart says

quote
Dear Silent T,
Just in case you didn’t know, you disgust me. You equivocate about Mana Internet, claiming they will “not form part of a labour led government”. But we all know that means you will look to them for confidence and supply. And we also know that you’ve hung Kelvin Davis out to dry.

Look at what you have become, you pale shadow of a man – a man who apologises for being a man.

You, sir, are not worthy to be considered a leader of anything other than the most feral, morally bereft of people. You should, but I know you will not be, utterly ashamed. And to think the media have closed in and refuse to report your other personal antics.
You morally bankrupt fraud. Beneath contempt, leading the contemptuous.
hmmokrightitis (1,524 comments) says:
August 9th, 2014 at 8:32 am
Dear Silent T,

Just in case you didn’t know, you disgust me. You equivocate about Mana Internet, claiming they will “not form part of a labour led government”. But we all know that means you will look to them for confidence and supply. And we also know that you’ve hung Kelvin Davis out to dry.

Look at what you have become, you pale shadow of a man – a man who apologises for being a man.

You, sir, are not worthy to be considered a leader of anything other than the most feral, morally bereft of people. You should, but I know you will not be, utterly ashamed. And to think the media have closed in and refuse to report your other personal antics.You morally bankrupt fraud. Beneath contempt, leading the contemptuous.
end quote
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August 9, 2014 8:39am
Tarquin North

A Mana billboard turned up in Ruakaka yesterday. Looks like someone drove over it last night. How sad never mind. The JK one just down the road is still standing, so is the weird Democrats one.
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August 9, 2014 8:42am
hj

I was on the phone a couple of days ago; I’m looking out my window. Along comes my Chinese neighbor. He tips up the letter box and pulls out the mail. The letters stay in one hand and the junk mail went straight to the ground. Apart from the fact that a lot of them don’t speak English I don’t have any complaint (I’m enriched by the diversity of my once mono cultural Kiwi neighborhood- I can visit China without leaving China). Although I did see a couple walking down the street and a tall woman is waving her arms around disdainfully as though she was going to demolish the whole neighborhood and build a Chinatown.
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August 9, 2014 8:45am
Chuck Bird

David can you please explain how the police can be served a trespass order as reported in the media when the police are enforcing a Supreme Court order.
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August 9, 2014 8:47am
georgebolwing

Having read the judge’s reasons in the Stephen Dudley case ( http://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/cases/r-v-m/at_download/fileDecision), it is clear that she was severely constrained by what the prosecution did. “M” was not charged with manslaughter, since Stephen Dudley’s unknown medical condition meant that a conviction was highly unlikely. M pleaded guilty to a charge of assault with intent to injure. As a result, Stephen Dudley’s subsequent death could not be taken into account in the sentencing. The case in front of the judge was about a schoolyard brawl. If not for Stephen’s undiagnosed heart
condition, the matter would probably not have been referred to the police. Given this, discharge without conviction seems reasonable.

At the risk of being slammed with massive down-thumbs, I will say that I think it is a good thing that decisions like this are taken out of the hands of grieving parents and given to dispassionate judges, advised by skilled advocates.
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August 9, 2014 8:49am
UglyTruth

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Dime: I am with you on the Takamore case…how utterly disgraceful that the Police left the scene “because there was likely to be trouble’…dealing with “trouble” is what they are supposed to do FFS!

If the police had pressed the issue they would have been making trouble, not resolving it.

Tuhoe have real grounds to reject the opinion of a Crown court based on their history of rejection of Crown influence.
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August 9, 2014 8:50am
Southern Raider

Hamas refuses to extend the ceasefire and the left liberals continue to lobby against Israel

In the meantime jihadists around the world are beheading Christians, forcing children up mountains to die of thirst and taking over critical infrastructure. This struggles to even be mentioned in major news outlets

Where is the real monster? Just like with Nazism there is a real potential for the world to wake up in 10 years to discover half the planet is living under sharia law
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August 9, 2014 8:53am
Other_Andy

Gaza Bishop: Hamas Used Church to Fire Rockets

Archbishop Alexios is Gaza’s most prominent Christian leader. His decision to open his church to 2,000 Muslims escaping the war surprised many of Gaza’s residents.
So what does Hamas do?
It uses the church compound as a base to fire rockets at Israeli civilians.

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisrael/2014/August/Gaza-Bishop-Hamas-Used-Church-to-Fire-Rockets-/

We are still waiting for Ban Ki Moon to:
1. Condemn Hamas for using mosques, hospitals, churches and schools as military bases.
2. Apologise for blaming Israel for hitting al-Shifa Hospital and the Beach (Shati) camp.
3. Apologize for letting Hamas use UN construction material to build milatairy infrastructure.
4. Apologize for letting Hamas use UN schools the store weapons and rockets (Three times).
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August 9, 2014 8:54am
UglyTruth

David can you please explain how the police can be served a trespass order as reported in the media when the police are enforcing a Supreme Court order.

Because “Supreme Court” is only a title, while a tresspass order is based on the law of the land.
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August 9, 2014 8:55am
hj

David Garrett
The police said “our job is to keep the peace” and the Grandfather said “you’ll have to put a bullet through my head”. Would a white person have got away with that?
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August 9, 2014 8:55am
Griff

A man has been arrested and charged with murder following the death of a baby girl in South Auckland.

Police say a post mortem examination that was conducted yesterday revealed that the baby girl suffered a fractured skull and broken leg. The five-month-old died on Thursday in Pukekohe.

Any bets as to the race of the killer?
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August 9, 2014 8:58am
georgebolwing

Chuck Bird:

As I understand it, Mr Takamore’s widow had a court order allowing them to disinter his body voluntarily. Since that was not allowed by the other side of his family, the matters is going back to the High Court in ChCh, where an order for a forced internment may issue.
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August 9, 2014 8:58am
duggledog

DG (it was me not Dime but I bet he’s with me on this one) – what I’m saying is NZF / Cons. / ACT are utterly spoiled for choice over the next few weeks on how to illustrate one of their main policy platforms – Maori privilege and racial preference.

They can update the NZ Police’s decisions on what to do (or not to do) about Takamore ON A DAILY BASIS, along with bringing up the ‘Maori King”s son’s reprieve, Whanau Ora, Ngai Tahu’s tax exemption and so on and so on and so on.

Problem is they will most likely cancel each other out and NZ will carry on as before. If only all three could sit down, work out which policies they can all agree on and form one political party then it would be all over in two months!

But this will never happen.

Ugly Truth – Tuhoe can put a big fence around ‘their land’ then, if they have a history of telling the Crown to get stuffed, and we can all stay the f*** away from them. Nothing in, nothing out but that includes my tax dollars
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August 9, 2014 8:58am
Southern Raider

The truth also needs to be told about the UNRWA that runs the schools in Gaza. Most people assume because of the inclusion of UN that these are foreign run and staffed. In fact 90 to 99% of staff at each school come from Gaza and the western head of UNRWA has admitted some of the staff are Hamas and he didn’t have a problem with that
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August 9, 2014 8:59am
hj

georgebolwing
At the risk of being slammed with massive down-thumbs, I will say that I think it is a good thing that decisions like this are taken out of the hands of grieving parents and given to dispassionate judges, advised by skilled advocates.
…..
what about the liberal influence for instance Geoffrey Palmer “prison shouldn’t be for punishment” (and liberals dominate politics)?

How many of these unprovoked attacks aren’t straight out racist attacks?
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August 9, 2014 9:01am
Southern Raider

I’ve got no problem on Chinese buying Lochinvar Station as there is massive downstream benefit.

The most positive thing for NZ would be the Chinese buy up parts of northland, make big investments and create some jobs.

I have a broader problem with the general immigration rules where non-English speaking parents can coat tail in on family reunification rules, have no chance of ever working, won’t ever integrate and are a cost to the county
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August 9, 2014 9:03am
lolitasbrother

you know that the south raider means UN is united to anything except Islam ,die in your trenches here Islam terror. well he also supports China buy NZ the fool on the hill. Where have you travelled idiot
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August 9, 2014 9:04am
Judith

“prison shouldn’t be for punishment”

Actually, that is not a bad statement. If we regarded prisons more as a means of protection for the general public, rather than a means of punishment, we would be able to keep prisoners in their longer under the premise that letting them out would be putting the public at risk.

As it stands, we look at them as punishment, something which can have a finite period. Five years, and you’ve served your ‘punishment’ for that particular crime – too bad if you are still mentally unstable, an active gang member, a psychopath, etc – “you’ve served your punishment so off you go”.

Using prisons for the purpose of protecting innocents is exactly how we should regard them and would allow offenders to be kept locked up until they were no longer dangerous!
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August 9, 2014 9:06am
kowtow

The police commissioner needs to get to that cemetary and apologise for his officers’ actions.

Another child murdered.wow Sue Bradfords’ bill really did fix the problem like they said it would.
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August 9, 2014 9:07am
UglyTruth

The police commissioner needs to get to that cemetary and apologise for his officers’ actions.

The actions of officers of the law are based on law, not on need.
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August 9, 2014 9:10am
bringbackdemocracy

The anti-smacking law has only two faults.
1) What it does do. Criminalise good parents
2) What it doesn’t do. Stop child abuse. 32% increase since the law’s passing

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11306412
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August 9, 2014 9:11am
flipper

David Garrett (6,527 comments) says:

August 9th, 2014 at 8:35 am

Dime: I am with you on the Takamore case
****

You folks might have shown a bit more overt (expletive deleted) anger….. But A++

Excellent analysis.
F 🙂
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August 9, 2014 9:14am
wiseowl

DG,
Can you perhaps clarify. If the Supreme Court makes a decision and that is defied, to which court does one seek guidance.

To give the finger to the highest court in New Zealand must be a first and shows what toohoy really think.

The apology and handout were a waste of time and considering they didn’t sign the treaty shouldn’t have been eligible for a cent.
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August 9, 2014 9:15am
cas

Re the Takamore case, the police should have anticipated trouble and brought in reinforcements or appropriate cultural advisors. The family etc had been dealing with two kaumatua from the marae who had been supportive so obviously a spilt in the ranks.

When Takamore’s body was first abducted the local police knew what was to transpire and possibly could have prevented his burial except the local Sergeant at the time said they had developed good relationships with the hapu and didn’t want to put them in jeopardy or words to that effect.
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August 9, 2014 9:16am
Judith

No anti smacking law was ever going to stop children being murdered. The parent that kills is in an irrational state and no law was going to stop that. What it does stop is the mindless parents who think that hitting a child around the head, or with a stick or implement, is a reasonable way to punish them.

The law has been successful in doing that – it has made reasonable parents think about what they are doing when they hit out in anger, rather than under control. Which is how it should be.

Despite the best efforts of the Colin Craigs of the is world, the statistics do not support them. There have not been hundreds of parents dragged before the courts for giving their child a controlled smack.
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August 9, 2014 9:17am
David Garrett

Chuck: I have no idea how or why the police seemed to think they had to obey a trespass notice when what they were doing is – supposedly – maintaining the peace while an order of the Court is carried out…

someone has said something about the order only covering a voluntary exhumation…I seem to remember seeing something about that…So this poor woman has to return to the High Court yet again, at huge expense…and if I was her, I would have absolutely no confidence that the police would enforce any future order any more than they have (not) enforced this one…
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August 9, 2014 9:22am
IGM

Interesting to note Judge Winkelmann is another Labour appointment. Is it not time all these socialist appointees were investigated . . . their sentences are disgraceful, and the scum they are acquitting make policing a waste of time.
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August 9, 2014 9:22am
iMP

Tv3’s THE NATION programme, described as “in-depth current affairs.” More like “selective, one over.”

Good on Colin Craig for exposing the media factionalism and forcing himself on in the name of balance and fairness.

And a High Court judge agreed.
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August 9, 2014 9:23am
Judith

DG

If a person leaves a Will stating where they want to be buried, does that hold in law, or does it just give one particular side more weight, but is not binding?
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August 9, 2014 9:24am
stephieboy

This from a recent TM post on a thread about Fligh M17,

“The mundane and tragic probability is was an accidental shoot down by separatists who mistook Mi-17 for a Ukrainian military aircraft, Aircraft they had shot down before, only a few days earlier in fact. This cannot compete with the excitement some feel about a “conspiracy” they get to selectively troll the internet feeding their conformation bias selecting only the sites that agree, ignore all the ones that disagree, critical thinking is irreverent when you can use the deaths of people to make you feel superior.”

Doesn’t this remind one of of certain somebody or somebodies who spam ( err sorry posts ) on KB.?
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August 9, 2014 9:24am
Viking2

Knowing some of the Takemore family rather well I can say that this is not a situation where everyone agrees with those making all the noise and being destructive.

Other siblings of James have made their wishes clear but when the time comes they may well be ignored.

Its about family power and who runs that Urapa.

Like most religious sycophants its their “rights” that matter and not the desires of the non believers.

So just saying, don’t tar all Tuhoe nor all Takemore’s with the same brush as many of you are want to do.

As for the Police. Well this is actually a Civil matter and usually when that is the case the police will not intervene. so their role remains to keep the peace. Fairly simple and straight forward I would have thought.

DG you may well have a different interpretation of this but please let us know how a civil matter becomes a police criminal matter.
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August 9, 2014 9:26am
oldpark

Was trying to work out who in NZ at the moment could be classed as public enemy Number One.First we have John Minto,a nomad for lost causes, and comes under the category of a “SVENGALI”.Lila Harre or is it Mata Harre,or even a modern day” JUDAS”.They are the puppets of an international criminal called SCHMIDZ/DOTCON wanted by the FBI.DOTCON now known as a sugar daddy, to all who suck off his huge obese frame,helping him to manufacture hateful dissension in the land of NZ.
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August 9, 2014 9:26am
calendar girl

Judith @9:06 – There’s obvious merit in using imprisonment to protect the general public. However:

“Using prisons for the purpose of protecting innocents is exactly how we should regard them and would allow offenders to be kept locked up until they were no longer dangerous!”

But who would make the decisions? The present Parole Board whose decisions are frequently seen by many of us as being “soft”? Bleeding-heart public servants? I don’t think so.

Better to add an automatic parole period (of the same length) to every finite prison sentence – that could allow a re-offender to be re-imprisoned quickly and effectively – with appropriate safeguards – without waiting on delays in the creaking criminal court system for a full trial. In addition, remove (or sharply reduce the length of) the existing automatic parole “entitlements” after part of the sentence has been served.
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August 9, 2014 9:29am
UglyTruth

Chuck: I have no idea how or why the police seemed to think they had to obey a trespass notice when what they were doing is – supposedly – maintaining the peace while an order of the Court is carried out…

Notice the use of titles here: “Court” rather than a real court with real jurisdiction.
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August 9, 2014 9:29am
kowtow

Where is the outrage?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/11022879/Iraq-crisis-The-streets-of-Erbils-newly-Christian-suburb-are-now-full-of-helpless-people.html
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August 9, 2014 9:32am
flipper

georgebolwing (633 comments) says:

August 9th, 2014 at 8:49 am

****

Well said, and accurate.

The medical condition (unknown) was the killer.

I think the youth pleading guilty to a SERIOUS CHARGE should have received punishment.
But again, if a Conviction is not entered on the charge, then punishment options are limited. What more could have been done I leave to others. But whatever it is, if must be more than a rant. It must be based in law.

Two other points:

1. The grieving parents wanted Utu. They got law-based Justice. If they want Utu, there is an island off the coast of Somalia.

2. The media reached yet another nadir by exploiting the parents grief. I can in only conclude that not one, a single f’ing MSM type read the judge’s full statement. Their exploitation was disgraceful.
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August 9, 2014 9:32am
Judith

HA HA HA

Good one TV3 – they’ve put them all in the debate, and made Craig look extremely stupid! He was hoping to be just one of four!
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August 9, 2014 9:32am
Other_Andy

@Viking2

“As for the Police. Well this is actually a Civil matter and usually when that is the case the police will not intervene. so their role remains to keep the peace. Fairly simple and straight forward I would have thought. ”

You are saying the police cannot enforce a decision of the court?
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August 9, 2014 9:33am
Viking2

wiseowl (777 comments) says:
August 9th, 2014 at 9:15 am

DG,
Can you perhaps clarify. If the Supreme Court makes a decision and that is defied, to which court does one seek guidance.

To give the finger to the highest court in New Zealand must be a first and shows what toohoy really think.

The apology and handout were a waste of time and considering they didn’t sign the treaty shouldn’t have been eligible for a cent.

========================
So not so wise owl you display a complete lack of knowledge of what the Crown did to the Tuhoe and continued for many years. Go to the Library and get out a copy of Encircled Lands and Mihaia by Judith Binney.
Tuhoe are the only Maori tribe to have a fully documented history written and published.
Read them and understand how they were treated by both Maori from the Hawkes Bay and Gisbourne area’s and by the Govt.

That they didn’t sign the Treaty is irrelevant in the context of how they were terrorized and disposed of their tribal Lands.
Many others have made claims, many of which have been based an false premise and hearsay. You seem happy to accept those claims despite them being poorly researched and an ” official” version incorporated into their settlements, just because they signed the Treaty.

Educate yourself properly.
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August 9, 2014 9:38am
David Garrett

Ugly: You are an idiot…you know nothing about the law, and from what I can see, not much about anything else…if one disregards your apparently wide knowledge of conspiracy theories..

Judith: The executor is the person who in effect decides whether the instructions left in the Will are in fact carried out…for example, you might leave instructions that your body is to be cremated, while unbeknown to you, the executor has religious objections to cremation… If the executor is willing to disregard your stated wishes and bury you instead there is nothing anyone can do about it… which is one of the many reasons we should all choose our executors wisely…

The Takamore case was complicated by the fact that while James left his partner as executor, the Will was silent on where he was to be buried…but as things have transpired, I don’t think that would have made any difference….the arrogant “whanau” would have done what they did regardless of what the Will might have said.

What is happening here is actually a breach of the so called Treaty..the much ignored Article 3 of which makes Maori British subjects, and thus subject to the same laws as honkey residents of this fair land…but don’t expect the Waitangi Tribunal to investigate this any time soon…it could of course only do so if some Maori complained to it…the rest of us do not have “standing” to bring a claim or make a complaint to it…
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August 9, 2014 9:39am
kowtow

One can’t really blame the individual officers for retreating at the cemetary.

Ever since labour and the activist courts reactivated the previously delegislated treaty and added the undefined principles to all aspects of New Zealand officialdom (and National are on board too ) the country is, like those officers, in retreat.

That’s why we need binding referenda to force government to do the will of the electorate.

In the meantime we will continue to be serfs to a self serving elitist permanent political class.
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August 9, 2014 9:41am
Viking2

Other_Andy (2,371 comments) says:
August 9th, 2014 at 9:33 am

@Viking2

“As for the Police. Well this is actually a Civil matter and usually when that is the case the police will not intervene. so their role remains to keep the peace. Fairly simple and straight forward I would have thought. ”

You are saying the police cannot enforce a decision of the court?
=====================
The police are not there to enforce civil matters.

They can mediate etc etc but if they had enforced this yesterday then I believe the Police would have been breaking the Law.

If you doubt me then try getting the police to enforced a Tenancy court ordered payment. It is just not that simple.
The court ruling remains a civil matter at this time.
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August 9, 2014 9:44am
UglyTruth

DG you may well have a different interpretation of this but please let us know how a civil matter becomes a police criminal matter.

By service of civil process, typically service of notice. After the police provide a service they have a legitimate interest and typically become a party to the dispute by joinder. Technically it remains a civil process, but criminal penalties may result from the process.
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August 9, 2014 9:47am
David Garrett

Viking: that is interesting background on the Takamore family..

With respect, I don’t think you quite get the Police’s role in all this..Yes, it is a civil matter, and Yes, their role is to keep the peace…the peace was being threatened by the members of the family who threatened the said peace while Ms Clark and the undertakers were attempting to exercise their rights under the Order….so it is indeed “quite simple”, but not in the way you mean it…

Quite simply, the police ought to have ensured that Ms Clark was able to have her agents – the guy driving the digger and the undertakers – carry out an order of the highest court in the land…that they backed off in the face of threats is, as I have said, nothing short of disgraceful, and in effect means the police won’t maintain the peace if those threatening it are Maori who claim to be exercising some rights of their own which are contrary to the terms of an Order…
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August 9, 2014 9:48am
UglyTruth

Ugly: You are an idiot…you know nothing about the law, and from what I can see, not much about anything else…if one disregards your apparently wide knowledge of conspiracy theories..

You’re such a joke, Garret. If you were a competent attorney and had a real point to make then you should at least be able to present a reasonable argument rather than resorting an ad hominem, the argument of last resort.

If I know nothing about the law, then why can’t you refute a single point from the following page?

http://www.actsinjunction.info/corruption.html
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August 9, 2014 9:51am
macdee

Re the Takamore’s ~ where’s Dame Susan when you need her

Jamie Whyte 10 ~ Dame Susan 0
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August 9, 2014 9:53am
UglyTruth

That’s why we need binding referenda to force government to do the will of the electorate.

Such a process amounts to conspiracy unless the will of the electorate is to purse a lawful goal.
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August 9, 2014 9:54am
Griff

how they were terrorized and disposed of their tribal Lands.
The alliance of the Tuhoe with Kereopa, Te Kooti and the Hauhau and their resistance of the Crown to apprehend these “rebels” got the land confiscated after being warned for repeatedly allowing a terrorist groups to hide from the authority’s V2.
http://onenzfoundation.co.nz/wordpress/articles/land-purchases-and-confiscations/tuhoe-confiscations-inevitable-and-justified/
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August 9, 2014 9:56am
Viking2

DG, I think the court ruling rules in Ms Clarks favour Which is fine but the court ruling doesn’t enforce the removal of the James body.
Someone above has suggested that this is the next step.

And remember its Lawyers and politican/lawyers who make these rules.

Until the court actually Orders enforcement of this then IMHO without co-operation of those objecting the status quo remains.
We may not be comfortable with that but it remains the case.

If we take a look at the last few years and all the litigation and attempted recovery of their funds by many people who lost their money in Finance Companies , building companies etc.,the same deal is apparent. The police have their hands tied and even the courts have their hands tied.
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August 9, 2014 9:58am
hj

Andrew Geddis

Why do you think that somehow cultural affiliation/identity is not as important or significant as measuring someone’s “race” through the blood in their veins? There may well be “zilions” (well – thousands?) of people on the general roll who could legally identify as “Maori” for the purposes of enrolment. But if they don’t, so what? Why do you seem to think that the existence of choice as to how you culturally identify means it somehow is not relevant?

Because there are real costs involved? A departure from one man one vote is being proposed? A population of aggrieved , robbed, ripped of by cultural choice.
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August 9, 2014 10:01am
David Garrett

Viking: Again, you don’t seem to get it…the police have no ability to enforce a Tenancy Tribunal order for payment…and since debtors’ prisons no longer exist, no other arm of the state has any real ability to do so either in the face of a refusal to pay…unless the Order is for a sum which is sufficient upon which to base a bankruptcy application… ($2000 when I last looked)

But this situation at the cemetery is quite different..the police have every ability – and in fact an obligation – to ensure the peace is kept while someone else exercises their rights under an order… or simply goes about their lawful business..

What happened here was a bunch of maori threatened disorder if the terms of the Order were carried out, and instead of arresting the lot of them – or any one of them who had threatened either the peace or Ms Clark or her agents – they instead just backed off..

THAT should be the front page of the Herald, not some scumbag gang member who happened to be involved with the late Paul Holmes’ daughter…
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August 9, 2014 10:02am
mikenmild

I must admit, it seems a strange thing to be arguing about: where to bury a dead body. It seems to me to be a genuine clash of cultures. Why doesn’t this happen more often? Do other families compromise more readily? Are some whanau and iwi less insistent on their tikanga?
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August 9, 2014 10:05am
Viking2

Griff (6,888 comments) says:
August 9th, 2014 at 9:56 am

how they were terrorized and disposed of their tribal Lands.
The alliance of the Tuhoe with Kereopa, Te Kooti and the Hauhau and their resistance of the Crown to apprehend these “rebels” got the land confiscated after being warned for repeatedly allowing a terrorist groups to hide from the authority’s V2.
http://onenzfoundation.co.nz/wordpress/articles/land-purchases-and-confiscations/tuhoe-confiscations-inevitable-and-justified/
=========================================

Well that’s one side of the argument.
where is the counter balance to that?
Once again much of that was about Religion.

If Ngai Tahu can have South Island land back, Te Wharetoa, and many others the same, why should Tuhoe be treated differently?

Next you will be berating us all with telling us That Israel should be abandoned to the Arabs.

Same argument, different place, different context?
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August 9, 2014 10:06am
hj

David Round

Why is it, I cannot but wonder, that gangs and Maoris just seem to go together? I cannot believe that it is all injustice and oppression, I’m sorry. Plenty of other people are also poor and oppressed. Maori are not the only victims. I am forced to conclude that it is some aspect of the Maori cultural inheritance, some lingering atavistic tribal residue, which makes the criminal or marginal gang such a natural fit for so many Maori. You may reply that the arrangement is not much different from, say, that of the house-carles who followed their Anglo-Saxon lord, ate their bread at his table and supported him with their spears in his feuds; but our civilisation has developed since those magnificent but savage days. Maori culture, it seems, has not. It is still ~ as we are regularly officially reminded ~ a ‘warrior culture’. A warrior ~ as opposed to a soldier ~ is of his nature a gang-member.

And a culture is not a civilisation.

http://www.nzcpr.com/voltaire-thou-shouldst-be-living-at-this-hour/
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August 9, 2014 10:09am
mikenmild

Well, that’s a racist load of twaddle, hj…
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August 9, 2014 10:12am
hj

mikenmild (10,893 comments) says

you would say it is a result of a knock on effect caused by European colonisation and there would be an element of truth in that since one way or the other their circumstances would be different.
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August 9, 2014 10:16am
Viking2

Dg, while I agree with you about the hrag, I’d just say that discretion is often the better part of valour.

Given the roles of the Police and other govt. agencies over the last 150 years in the Tuhoe country and the manner in which there is hopefully some better relationships being forged that are based on mutual respect rather then complete mistrust of the authorities then IMHO the police did the right thing.
The issue isn’t going away and there will no doubt be sequels. As a lawyer you I’m sure have seen these sorts things go on and on. Its the Law. the Law is not based on Human emotions.

You can in effect get th Police to act on Tenancy Issue but its a drawn out process that involves investigation and court meeting and orders. If all that process is ignored then the Court can order the person arrested and bought before the court.
Meantime the Police can do nothing and even after a court Hearing can still do nothing.

but then you know that eh!
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August 9, 2014 10:16am
crazy88

Lochinvar has many Agronomic problems, e.g. cold and very short growing season, huge fertility problems with little topsoil, huge Phosphorus lock up potential, and very low pH, and the list would go on. The only economic benefit in the past may have been a nice tax write off for Stephensons, i.e. Lochinvar has cost the NZ taxpayer plenty. (Muldoon National Socialism gave 3% development loans). I would be surprised in the few profitable years that RoI got to 4% and averages around 1%.

My point is that Lochinvar should have been planted in Pine trees. Too late now. The only enterprise that could achieve a higher rate of return, would only be a very large Dairy Agribusiness willing to invest for a 50 year cycle.
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August 9, 2014 10:17am
Komata

MM

Re: ‘Well, that’s a racist load of twaddle, hj…’

Can you explain please?

Thanks.
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August 9, 2014 10:18am
David Garrett

Mikey: I have never before thought of you as some cringing wannabe Maori…

Let’s say my “tikanga” requires that I be buried here at Rancho Garrett, under the sacred willow tree in which I built Charlie’s tree-house…my “tikanga” will simply be ignored, because the law of the land says you must be buried in a cemetery unless you are more than X k’s from a cemetery… and there is a cemetery a few k’s from here..

As I said earlier, Article 3 of the Treaty makes the Maori British subjects, and thus subject to the same rule(s) of law as the rest of us……A party to an international treaty (which “the treaty” is not, but that’s another argument) cannot decide they will take advantage of one part of it, but not be subject to the bits they don’t like so much…
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August 9, 2014 10:19am
flipper

Judith…
Sorry, you are wrong.

I think what Craig did was excellent. He held the media to account. TV3 were told (paraphrased): include him or cancel.

He knew six other parties would be on the programme. He wanted to be the 7th. And his stat argument before the Court (whatever one thinks of Craig, and I think he is a nutter) was excellent, and accepted.

Let the idiots fight. I can see only three sensible participants – Dunne, Flavell and Whyte,. Peters is a bullshitter. Harawira a racist nutter never held to account, and Craig and Tureri also nutters.
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August 9, 2014 10:21am
mikenmild

Just because I can recognise the place opf tikanag doesn’t mean Iam ‘cringing’. Your perspective is that the wishes of the deceased must be paramount. I’m just pointing out that that is not the only possible perspective.
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August 9, 2014 10:21am
Nostalgia-NZ

Don’t envy the role of either the Courts or the police in the Takamore case. Particularly because there is a feeling abroad that the family or some of the family in Opotiki are being difficult when in fact they want their relation to rest in the lands where he was born, in the bosom of the family. Just the same as his wife wants him to be in Christchurch where they met, married and raised a family. Neither side is wishing ‘ill will’ on the other, in fact there are arguably not two sides at all but rather a failure to reach an agreement.

Some here have raised history as reasons why the police should enforce a civil order. Opotiki has a history of it’s own, part of which touches upon 100s of servicemen buried overseas, in some cases brothers – much earlier land confiscations and general blame for the hanging of the missionary there who was warned to stay away as he was believed to be spying, the further hangings which resulted from that which are claimed to have been unjust. I’m not saying that all these things are related, but there is little to say they are not – how that falls on the police or The Courts to settle is asking for a simple solution to difficult questions.
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August 9, 2014 10:22am
Nostalgia-NZ

Winkleman J did a good job flipper.
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August 9, 2014 10:23am
FeralScrote

Poor ol` Jamie Whyte on the Nation this morn,he is finding out the hard way that reason and logic does not work on the socialists anymore than it works on the religious.
Just a hint Jamie ,wealth is a dirty word to the lefties,just like progress and personal responsibility.
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August 9, 2014 10:28am
Reid

What happened here was a bunch of maori threatened disorder if the terms of the Order were carried out, and instead of arresting the lot of them – or any one of them who had threatened either the peace or Ms Clark or her agents – they instead just backed off..

In some ways yes I’m with you on this one David and in other ways my jury is still out. In terms of being with you here, one doubts the same thing would have happened had a group of people from any race other than Maori had down the precise same thing. It’s one thing to be accommodating to the tangata whenua but this incident is pushing up against the principle of maintaining fair treatment for all.

The fact is however Maori do have a different way of resolving issues like this and those ways involve discussion and debate after which everyone gets up and things happen the way they would have anyway. It’s not our way but it is their way. Given the nature of this particular issue which does fall within that category I think it was a fair call by the police to give that process a go. On the clip I noted one of the police uniforms contained a distinguished looking Maori and I imagine he probably had a hand in that decision. If as time goes by and nothing happens then I’ll start getting worried but for the moment, I’m happy to wait and see what happens… It’s just a shame the police have to be the meat in the sandwich in this, it’s not an easy job they have but overall IMO they do it extremely well and this is one of those times I think we should be grateful for their skill and discretion.
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August 9, 2014 10:29am
UglyTruth

From Griff’s link:

Tuhoe did not sign the Treaty largely because they were too isolated for it to be taken to them, read, discussed and given the opportunity to sign. Unlike Ngapuhi and other northern tribes, Tuhoe had very little contact with the Europeans, the missionaries or the British Crown and remained this way for many years after the Treaty was signed, when New Zealand was ceded to Britain, which was recognized and accepted by all the major nations of the world.

If Tuhoe land was isolated from the Crown then it was not part of Crown territory and could not be ceded to Britian.
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August 9, 2014 10:33am
crazy88

Cold out. 6 days of no WhaleOil. Not one more click ever.

Fell over backwards last night. Dear friends, but card carrying multi-generational Socialists, (voted Robertson in Labour Leaders vote) are voting Green, “How sensible and sound is Russell Norman”

My scientific extrapolation from these 2 votes is Greens hitting 18, 19% and Labour crashing to 22, 23%.
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August 9, 2014 10:33am
flipper

As a follow-up to the TV3 thing, does anyone know what this programme draws. By draws, I mean numbers.

Mostly political nutters will be watching, and sending in texts and emails from pre-arranged scripts. ( I had never before been bothered to watch the programme, and the screaming escapee from a Biafran refugee camp, Owen.

Once it was letters to the editor. That still occurs, but the TV3 programme was bullshit and deserves to be treated as such.

En passant, if they are going to persist, would it not be good if TV3 and TVNZ dumped Edwards??? This ex Alliance staffer is hardly a neutral observer, notwithstanding his present grandiose taxpayer funded sinecure at OU.
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August 9, 2014 10:34am
flipper

Nostalgia-NZ (4,936 comments) says:

August 9th, 2014 at 10:23 am

Winkleman J did a good job
****

Yep….my heart says, NO

But my head says, Yes

Have a good one …
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August 9, 2014 10:40am
Judith

@ flipper (3,642 comments) says:
August 9th, 2014 at 10:21 am

I may well be wrong flipper, it has happened once or twice before 🙂 However, I think Craig didn’t get what he wanted. The original debate was to be with just three parties. Those that have been in parliament in the last three years. Craig’s actions meant all the minor parties were invited – reducing the amount of time he got to a bare minimum. He came across as weak compared to Winston – and that weakness highlighted Winston’s strengths – which considering they are competing for the same conservative vote, will actually go against Craig.

Craig used his money to take the matter to Court, and in doing so came across as a rich petulant child trying to get his spot in the limelight, which is his right, – sure he got his spot, but sadly it appears he all he’s done is muddy it further. His performance was shocking and only demonstrated he does not even have the polish that Hone has when it comes to public appearance ( and believe me, that is hard to admit, but Hone looked more confident and professional than Craig – god help us!)
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August 9, 2014 10:40am
flash2846

Just watched the minor party leaders debate. Four Maori leaders and three New Zealanders, Apartheid for sure. They all got to open without interruption until it came to Colin Craig; he was interrupted by the presenter within the first sentence.
I smell danger. Those creeps from Greens, Mana, Maori and even NZF will say and do anything to gain power.
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August 9, 2014 10:40am
kowtow

Where is the outrage?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2719991/Horrific-new-photographs-ISIS-atrocities-prompted-Obama-act.html
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August 9, 2014 10:46am
Keeping Stock

@ Flash – since when have Maori not been New Zealanders? That kind of racism sickens me.
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August 9, 2014 10:54am
wf

– the Takamores could erect a tablet on the family grave in Christchurch, acknowledging his death and loss to the family, while also admitting his physical interment elsewhere.

In our family we scatter ashes . . . .
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August 9, 2014 11:13am
wiseowl

Well Judith you must have been mistaken or have a predetermined position.

Craig came across really well and managed to deal with the attacks from Owen ‘well you’re a property speculator’ in a calm and clear way.

Dunne was terrible and obviously most of his Untied supporters are from Fish and Game and the ex Outdoors party as he tried to relate everything to them.

Whyte was lost and as soon as I hear this cry of xenophobia I know they don’t get it.

Craig and Winnie were the winners.
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August 9, 2014 11:14am
Judith

@ wf (382 comments) says:
August 9th, 2014 at 11:13 am

I guess it depends on a persons cultural/religious beliefs. If they believe that the earthly body is only a vessel and that the spirit ascends to some higher place, then they are less likely to put as much value on the remains, and value some sort of memorial, as you have suggested.

However, if their beliefs are based on the body also containing the spirit and the spirit not being free unless it is returned to the place of its ancestors, then it gets more complicated.

Personally, I believe once you are dead, you rot and should become worm food, at least returning to the soil something of what you took from it when alive. Therefore my beliefs are about my family constructing whatever type of memorial they need to enable them to remember me. I like the idea of a lasting memorial. There is a saying along these lines, we die three deaths, first when our body ceases to function, second when we are interred in the ground (or I guess cremated) and thirdly, and finally when our names are spoken for the last time. A lasting memorial allows future generations to say your name!
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August 9, 2014 11:19am
duggledog

Keeping Stock – if you hadn’t noticed, Maori are separate now. They don’t consider themselves ‘kiwis’; they consider themselves Tangata Whenua and Special. You may have heard the two words ‘our people’ being used frequently over the last couple of decades. I don’t believe Flash was being racist. Hate to be glib but ‘they started it’ aided and abetted by one G. Palmer.

Flipper – I can tell you programmes such as The Nation, Q & A, ‘Media Take’ (Russell Browns previously rather good offering which has been reduced to a segment in a show naturally obsessed with Maori issues because the over endowed Maori TV was the only channel that would pick it up), Sean Plunket’s new show – hardly rate on the ratings system. The majority of viewers want cooking competition shows, the Block and rugby. The slot all these shows invariably inhabit tells you everything you need to know, they are valueless spots.

New Zealanders are not interested in politics as it is ‘boring’. This is why the country barely resembles the one I grew up in.
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August 9, 2014 11:21am
Judith

@ wiseowl (778 comments) says:
August 9th, 2014 at 11:14 am

That wasn’t what the political commentators thought, and none of the people here watching it had that impression. Craig looked stressed, and acted it. He spoke strongly only once during the entire debate and let others interrupt him. A polished politician does not allow that to happen. They speak strongly enough to quieten any opposing voice. Craig did not do that – all his appearance today showed is that he is inexperienced and not ready to play a major role in NZ politics.

The winners were Winston for sure – from a Maori perspective, I think probably Hone’s polished performance may have stood above Flavell’s. Dunne was strong, but sadly his words seemed insincere, given his past performance. Whyte was strong, but arrogant – he was unable to twist his policy to soft it on certain questions – that ability is integral to being a good politician, it is something Key has a strong ability in – Whyte needs to learn that. I was pleased to see the only woman hold her own in the debate, although don’t think she made any standout points.
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August 9, 2014 11:26am
wf

@ Keeping Stock: Maori give their Maori status priority, thus putting their New Zealand-ness in second place. This is supported by endless claims by Maori which non-Maori New Zealanders endorse in their efforts to be seen as being ‘fair’.

Jamie Whyte has a point. Level the playing field. Making all citizens equal under the law would be a good start.
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August 9, 2014 11:28am
Judith

@ duggledog (1,381 comments) says:
August 9th, 2014 at 11:21 am

Any society that believes everyone is the same, is fooling itself and doomed to failure. We are all different, have different beliefs and different cultural values. A good society is one that appreciates difference, and allows each group in society to reach their maximum potential.

We will never be the same – and as long as we keep trying to be, we will keep going in circles.
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August 9, 2014 11:29am
Chuck Bird

However, we can at least say that if the fight had not taken place, Stephen might be alive today.

@ georgebolwing

The above statement is made by this so called learned judge. I would be interested in the medical report. I bet it would not support the spin she is putting out.

I would say that the probability that Stephen would not be alive today due to his undiagnosed heart defect if he had not been the victim of a vicious, cowardly unprovoked attack would be quite low.

Unless the report supports her view rather than mine the judge is being disingenuous at best.
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August 9, 2014 11:38am
Duxton

When are the cops going to sort these pieces of shit out?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11306278
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August 9, 2014 11:38am
Fletch

Here is the winner of the NZ Contemporary Arts awards – a shelf with a broken fluorescent bulb on it.
No, I’m not kidding.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/arts/10367123/NZ-contemporary-art-award-winner-A-shelf

I’m sorry, but this is just bullshit. I knew the art world is snooty and ridiculous, and this is just proof.
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August 9, 2014 11:47am
Ross12

georgebolwing and flipper

I am not a lawyer –it seems both of you are. Re the Dudley case : I cannot understand how if a defendant admits guilt to a charge that he can get off without conviction. It was a clear case of assault and there has to be some responsibility , somehow. The initial punch may be put down to school yard brawling but the continued kicking when he was down goes beyond that.
I don’t think he should have been put in prison or anything like that, but he should have received some sort of punishment.

In recent weeks we had a person convicted because he incorrectly filed a piece of paper which had absolutely no effect on anyone or alter any situation. Here we have admission of assault and nothing happens. To this layman something doesn’t add up.
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August 9, 2014 11:47am

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