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August 4, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 4 August 2014

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UglyTruth

Yes, but the councils compiled the final canon, note that word, final.

The issue of whether the canon means the early canon from the Council of Trent or any later canon is irrelevant.

The point remains that you agreed with the statement that “most recent books were written generations before church councils compiled the canon of scripture”, in reference to Paul’s statement that “All Scripture is breathed out by God”, and so you contradicted yourself when you said that “ALL of the Bible is the breathed out Word of God”.
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August 4, 2014 6:07pm
RF

Judith.. 11.14am.

Good post !!!!
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August 4, 2014 6:08pm
ShawnLH

“The issue of whether the canon means the early canon from the Council of Trent”

The Council of Trent did not finalize the early canon. The canon was generally accepted by the mid third century.

“The point remains”

The point remains that you’re trying to side step the issue of why anyone should take Makow seriously.
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August 4, 2014 6:14pm
nasska

Don the Kiwi @ 5.48pm

Manure is manure, fresh or old. 🙂
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August 4, 2014 6:21pm
UglyTruth

The Council of Trent did not finalize the early canon. The canon was generally accepted by the mid third century.

So what? It doesn’t affect the point that you’ve contradicted yourself regarding an argument that you later claimed to have won “hands down”.

The point remains that you’re trying to side step the issue of why anyone should take Makow seriously.

No, I don’t care if people take him seriously or not. My post wasn’t about Makow, it was about an Israeli military governor describing how they helped to establish Hamas.
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August 4, 2014 6:23pm
ShawnLH

“So what? It doesn’t affect the point that you’ve contradicted yourself regarding an argument that you later claimed to have won “hands down”.”

That argument was about Israel, not the canon of Scripture. Trying to bait and switch again Ugly?

“My post wasn’t about Makow, it was about an Israeli military governor describing how they helped to establish Hamas.”

LOL, bullshit! Your claim about this was based on Makow’s say so! One goes with the other! If Makow cannot be trusted, then neither can your claim about Israel creating HAMAS.

Cripes, talk about contradicting yourself! 🙂
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August 4, 2014 6:28pm
ShawnLH

“Manure is manure, fresh or old.”

Been reading the Labour Party manifesto again naaska? 🙂
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August 4, 2014 6:29pm
SGA

Don the Kiwi at 5:48 pm

Of course, the bible is recognised as a historical document – by objective analysis.

Honest question – what does something being recognised as an historical document mean? In one sense, a Shakespeare first folio is an historical document, but I’m guessing you mean more than that?
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August 4, 2014 6:30pm
nasska

SGA

A document becomes historical when there’s no one left alive who can testify that it’s actually a load of crap.

A bit like Maori oral history. 🙂
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August 4, 2014 6:34pm
cricko

And they don’t teach history these days. They should.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2715098/The-haunting-account-trenches-ll-read-brilliant-anthology-Birdsong-author-Sebastian-Faulks.html

My Grandfather who lived in Beckenham, Christchurch volunteered age 22 in 1916

1917 was blown up by shellfire in France. Hospitalised back to England, sent to a camp in England where
soldiers were sent to ‘harden up’ after recovering and discharge from hospital (it actually says a camp to harden up in his service record)

Redeployed to France 1917 where he was gassed in the trench. Lost a lung as a result.

Volunteered again in 1939 Lingered on and died of his injuries in 1959

Kids these days have no idea.
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August 4, 2014 6:42pm
UglyTruth

That argument was about Israel, not the canon of Scripture.

Yes, it was about Israel, specifically that the Zionist state was not the rebirth of the nation of Israel because the establishment of the Zionist state was not a messianic event. In that argument you said that “ALL of the Bible is the breathed out Word of God” in order to support your position, and you’ve now contradicted yourself by agreeing with RationalWiki’s take on it.

Trying to bait and switch again Ugly?

If you really think that I’ve tried that before, then quote it.

“My post wasn’t about Makow, it was about an Israeli military governor describing how they helped to establish Hamas.”

LOL, bullshit! Your claim about this was based on Makow’s say so!

Nope. What I posted was:

http://henrymakow.com/israelcreatedhamastoavoid.html

New York Times Reporter David Shipler cites the Israeli military governor of Gaza as boasting that Israel expressly financed the fundamentalists against the PLO:

“Politically speaking, Islamic fundamentalists were sometimes regarded as useful to Israel, because they had conflicts with the secular supporters of the PLO. Violence between the two groups erupted occasionally on West Bank university campuses. Israeli military governor of the Gaza Strip, Brigadier General Yitzhak Segev, once told me how he had financed the Islamic movement as a counterweight to the PLO and the Communists. ‘The Israeli Government gave me a budget and the military government gives to the mosques,’ he said.”
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August 4, 2014 6:44pm
tom hunter

Good god, I step away from KB for a few hours and the place goes berserk ….

I consider Tom’s contributions to be the rarest of all things on KB – must reads … – cha
…
(Most of your comments are a must read for me – Redbaiter

WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON AROUND HERE?

Venkman: This city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.

Mayor: What do you mean, “biblical”?

Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor, real wrath of God type stuff.

Venkman: Exactly.

Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!

Spengler: Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes…

Zeddemore: The dead rising from the grave!

Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together… mass hysteria!

Fortunately I see I can still rely on Yoza and Stephieboy!
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August 4, 2014 6:45pm
ShawnLH

“Nope. What I posted was: http://henrymakow.com/israelcreatedhamastoavoid.html”

Yes, a link to Makow’s site. See, if you look really closely Ugly, your will see ‘henrymakow’ in that link. Or is it that in your fantasy world a link to a site is not really a link to a site? As to the article contained in it, that has been “abridged” by Makow.

Take your meds Ugly, your insanity is showing.
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August 4, 2014 6:54pm
Southern Raider

Protesting against Israel in the diamond district of New York is probably not this smartest move.

See how disillusioned and confused they get once they discover there is a counter protest

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=NkZdVeb9iSY
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August 4, 2014 6:57pm
EAD

Good article/video on the hedge that explains the process of money creation very succinctly.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-03/money-creation-so-simple-mind-repelled

“As John Kenneth Galbraith famously stated, “The process by which money is created is so simple the mind is repelled.” As Peak Prosperity’s Chris Martenson explains (as part of his excellent Crash Course), essentially, money is lent into existence though fractional reserve banking. The dollars you deposit at the bank? They turn into nearly 10x that amount as your bank subsequently makes loans using that money as collateral.

As simple as the process is, nearly every American remains ignorant of it and its massive implications.

At the heart of the matter is this: our money supply and its related debt obligations MUST continue expanding (thereby devaluing the purchasing power of each dollar ad infinitum) — forever — or the entire system collapses upon itself. Prepare to be repelled…”
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August 4, 2014 6:59pm
Longknives

So our schools are going to all get seperate ‘Transgender’ toilets and changing sheds for confused kids…
Seriously.. What the fuck??
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August 4, 2014 7:02pm
EAD

Shawn – While you are right to point out that this Mankow character has some “interesting” ideas, it is very revealing that you use the site “rationalwiki” to support your argument.

Rationalwiki is a site often referenced by far-left extremists who seek talking points to “shut down the debate” with over the top rhetoric

Perhaps you are further “left” than you care admit?
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August 4, 2014 7:04pm
ShawnLH

“While you are right to point out that this Mankow character has some “interesting” ideas, it is very revealing that you use the site “rationalwiki” to support your argument.”

Not really. It is sometimes useful, sometimes not.

“Perhaps you are further “left” than you care admit?”

The Left-Right spectrum is subjective to a degree. From my point of view your take on foreign policy and national defense is no different to the extreme Left’s, so…..back at ya! 🙂
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August 4, 2014 7:10pm
UglyTruth

Yes, a link to Makow’s site.

Which you took out of its original context, Shawn. Here it is once again in its original context, giving attribution an unnamed Israeli military governor of Gaza:

http://henrymakow.com/israelcreatedhamastoavoid.html

New York Times Reporter David Shipler cites the Israeli military governor of Gaza as boasting that Israel expressly financed the fundamentalists against the PLO:

“Politically speaking, Islamic fundamentalists were sometimes regarded as useful to Israel, because they had conflicts with the secular supporters of the PLO. Violence between the two groups erupted occasionally on West Bank university campuses. Israeli military governor of the Gaza Strip, Brigadier General Yitzhak Segev, once told me how he had financed the Islamic movement as a counterweight to the PLO and the Communists. ‘The Israeli Government gave me a budget and the military government gives to the mosques,’ he said.”

Also, here’s another quotes from Makow’s site which helps illustrate the point:

According to Robert Dreyfuss, author of “Devil’s Game: How the United States Helped Unleash Fundamentalist Islam”:

“And beginning in 1967 through the late 1980s, Israel helped the Muslim Brotherhood establish itself in the occupied territories. It assisted Ahmed Yassin, the leader of the Brotherhood, in creating Hamas, betting that its Islamist character would weaken the PLO.”
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August 4, 2014 7:12pm
Griff

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Moonbat

According to liberals

The far-left-wing sort of moonbats are the closest analogies to wingnuts. In North America, the former is much more rare than the latter, probably due to recent shifts to the political right, but where they do exist it’s usually of a more hard green bent as opposed to an economic one (e.g. a communist). The more extreme buffoons of the anti-imperialism movement, like Ward Churchill, also contribute heavily to America’s moonbat population.

One reliable heuristic when separating moonbats from rational lefties is their categorical opposition to everything the U.S. does overseas, to a degree unwarranted by skepticism. For example, Muammar Gaddafi kills protesters? Serb militias ethnically cleanse Bosnia and Kosovo? All of this is protested vigorously… until the U.S. and its allies move to intervene against the offenders, at which point genuine moonbats will often perform an instantaneous 180 and defend the repressive regime that they had previously loathed. It is rational to criticize a war by saying that it is killing more people than it was meant to save, causing major regional instability, or that it will generate unwanted blowback; when one turns to sensationalism, platitudes, and name-calling, one has crossed into moonbat territory.

Cranks in general — alties, conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers, anti-GMO crusaders, and especially the New Age crowd — are often classified as moonbats, unless their ideas are intertwined with a right-wing ideology, in which case the wingnut label is more appropriate. Examples of cranky moonbats are David Icke and Vani Hari. Alex Jones, contrariwise, is a wingnut due to his wacky theories fueling a Christian fundamentalist agenda.

A final subcategory of moonbats generally leans left while holding a few views more typical of wingnuts. Cathy Brennan’s extreme transphobia and Sam Harris’s support for racial profiling fall in this category.

For those interested, RationalWiki has a list of genuine nutty far-left activists and ideas at the bottom of this page, under the category “extreme moonbattery.”
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August 4, 2014 7:16pm
ShawnLH

@ Southern Raider: August 4th, 2014 at 6:57 pm

Absolutely fantastic video SR! That was truly inspiring!

Cripes, we need more Jews in NZ.
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August 4, 2014 7:18pm
cricko

On the anniversay of the out break of the Great War why can’t some fuckwits show a little respect and
just stop the constant bickering about Hamas V Israel for even a few minutes.

Pick it up again tomorrow fuckwits.

Nothing will have changed, and your idle chatter will never change anything anyway.
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August 4, 2014 7:21pm
publicwatchdog

Ah – Elycee is gumming away. (yawn)….

I know you don’t understand or support ‘transparency’ – you don’t put your name to posts – gutless anonymous Elycee.
(Meant of course in a caring way 🙂

Penny Bright
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August 4, 2014 7:22pm
EAD

Since when has military adventurism ever been a policy of the so called “right”? Don’t tell me George “Big Government Conservative” Bush (his own words) was anywhere right on the left/right spectrum.

As you know I’m Austrian/Libertarian in my outlook on just about all matters with Ron Paul being my most respected politician with whom I share the most similar outlook with. His campaign song below was called “end this war”.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE30TH6Y7cI

This article on Mises Daily explains best that the only rational action for a person on the right is to support a strong a military that only should be used for self defence. It says “As society and government merge into the state during wartime, the individual begins to disappear. The individual becomes part of what Bourne called “the herd.” He described the term: “The State is the organization of the herd to act offensively or defensively against another herd similarly organized.”

http://mises.org/daily/5748/Bourne-of-War
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August 4, 2014 7:23pm
ShawnLH

Watching the terrorist supporting scum (the usual mix of Islamo-Fascists and their dumbass Western Lefty puppets) get drowned out and pushed back was outstanding!
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August 4, 2014 7:24pm
ShawnLH

“Since when has military adventurism ever been a policy of the so called “right”?”

For most of it’s history. The so=called Paleo-Cons and Paleo-Libertarians were never representative of the Right except for a brief period in the 20’s to 30’s when the isolationists held sway, and when many of the same were supportive of Hitler.

“His campaign song below was called “end this war”.”

Sounds like a drug addled lefty hippy from the sixties. No wonder most heartland conservatives don’t support him.

“This article on Mises Daily explains best that the only rational action”

The Miseans are living in a fantasy land. Isolationism is impossible in a globalist world.
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August 4, 2014 7:30pm
ShawnLH

“gutless anonymous Elycee.”

Well unlike you Penny shes not stealing from rate payers or marching in the streets with Jew haters and terrorist supporters screeching like nutjob.
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August 4, 2014 7:32pm
UglyTruth

On the anniversay of the out break of the Great War why can’t some fuckwits show a little respect and
just stop the constant bickering about Hamas V Israel for even a few minutes.

Because it’s not about Hamas vs Israel, it’s about the US-Zionist alliance vs the Palestinians and other middle eastern people.

The Zionist involvement in establishing Hamas is described here.

The US/NATO involvement in establishing Al Qaeda is described here:

“.. it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul.” ~ Zbigniew Brzezinski

And here

“To paraphrase Edmonds: though the collusion with radical Islam had been going on for decades, it wasn’t until 1996 that a formal decision was made by NATO to abandon their previous secret relationship with neo-Fascists and arch-Nationalists and replace them with Islamists.”
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August 4, 2014 7:33pm
ShawnLH

“New York Times Reporter David Shipler cites the Israeli military governor of Gaza”

Prove it. The only “evidence” for this is Makows site. He gives no independent verification. There is no link to the actual article. And he has “abridged” the article, which, given Makows insanity could mean anything. In short, we have no way of knowing if the article itself exists, or that the journalist even said what he said, or, even if he did, if he is telling the truth.

There is no evidence here, there are no facts here, just Makow’s say so.

So I call bullshit on the claim.
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August 4, 2014 7:39pm
EAD

Shawn – think my man, think!

Where did this “globalist world” meme originate from and who pushes it?

Most Heartland conservative supporters don’t support him? Then how did he win two Conservative Political Action Conference(CPAC) straw polls for 2 years in a row? http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/12/ron-paul-wins-presidential-straw-poll-cpac/

Supportive of Hitler?? Paleo cons/paleo libertarians??? Where on earth do you get your ideas from?
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August 4, 2014 7:40pm
Jack5

Hosking on 7 Sharp tonight weighed in on behalf of National’s PCCO* faction to support the sale of Lochinver station to the Chinese.

State-owned TV backing the sale of our land to China when China won’t sell land to New Zealanders! Sort of fits the Chinese Communist state-capitalism model, I suppose.

Of course, Hosking alleged racism as one reason for opposing the sale. No mention of the non-reciprocal position for New Zealanders who want to buy China land, no mention of course of Key’s historic caution about foreign sales of our land (link repeated below), no mention that China and Middle East oil barons are buying up land around the world and that Brazil has just moved to block them by declaring land a strategic asset. (Try as a foreigner to buy a strategic asset in China and see how you get on.)

Foreign land sales are going to be an issue in the election campaign, so perhaps Hosking should be taken off air until after the voting.

The link to John Key’s earlier view (are you suggesting he is a racist, Hosking?):

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10656731

*PCCO = Pro Communist Chinese Oligarchs
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August 4, 2014 7:45pm
cricko

Hey Ugly Truth.

You really are one poor sad sick fuck.
And I mean that most sincerely.

‘Obsessed’ demented, wouldn’t even come close.

Fuck, you even go to great lenghts to argue about what you are even arguing about.

You saddo.
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August 4, 2014 7:46pm
UglyTruth

Big fan of the Zionist crime syndicate, are you, cricko?
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August 4, 2014 7:49pm
ShawnLH

“Shawn – think my man, think!”

Back at ya.

“Where did this “globalist world” meme originate from and who pushes it?”

Technology. It’s simply a function of global trade and global communications.

“Most Heartland conservative supporters don’t support him? Then how did he win two Conservative Political Action Conference(CPAC) straw polls for 2 years in a row?”

CPAC is a Beltway organization, which is why it is often not representative of heartland Americans. That is why Paul can win a straw poll there, but bomb when it comes to the primaries.

Anyway, I’m out for the rest of the evening. Bye all.
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August 4, 2014 7:54pm
Nostradamus

Penny Not-So:

I noted the following statement on your blog:

I believe that is high time that NZ got our ‘House’ in order, and established the legislative framework to prevent and fight corruption, and ensure genuine transparency and accountability in local and central government and within the judiciary.
…
If you support the ‘self-funded’ work I am doing – your donations are welcome and appreciated.

Kiwibank

Account Name: P M Bright
Account Number: [redacted]

Thanks! 🙂

So, Penny, let’s put your transparency claims to the test:

1. How many people have made donations through your website since you posted your bank account details?

2. In the last financial year:

– What was the total amount donated?
– Who made the smallest donation, and how much was their donation?
– Who made the largest donation, and how much was their donation?

3. Have you spent any of the total amount donated in the last financial year?

4. If yes to 3, please specify: (i) each item purchased; (ii) when it was purchased; (iii) the purpose for which it was purchased; and (iv) the relevant amount.

5. In your Return of Electoral Donations and Expenses form, you declared an amount of $42.78 spent on “4 cans spray ink”? Given the unusual nature of that purchase in the context of a mayoral campaign, did the amount of $42.78 come from donations? Were the “4 cans spray ink” used to deface other candidates’ signs?

6. Have you retained any of the total amount donated in the last financial year as remuneration (however characterised) for your “self-funded work”?

7. If yes to 6, how much have you retained, and for what purpose?

8. If yes to 6, have you, or do you intend to, declare the retained amount in your tax return?

Your answers – all in the name of transparency – will be of considerable interest to Kiwiblog readers and the IRD!

But, of course, you have no intention of being all that transparent, do you?
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August 4, 2014 8:07pm
EAD

@ Jack5

excellent link – John Keys hypocrisy on this issue is breathtaking. What is even more bewildering is the “John Key can do no wrong” brigade defending the indefensible.

It’s not about “wayyyyycism” Prime Minister Key, it’s about:
– reciprocity (can New Zealanders buy Chinese farms?)
– The chain of ownership – I don’t think anyone would bat an eyelid about a private citizen from any country coming here, buying a farm and farming it, but when the farm is basically being purchased by the Chinese Government that is a different story
– not wanting to become serfs in our own country. John Key admitted this himself in the article you linked to but now seems to conveniently have changed tune
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August 4, 2014 8:49pm
Nookin

Jack5.

I hope you are not a spin doctor by profession. You’ll go broke pdq if so.

Mike Hosking did not advocate the sale of farmland to China. He pointed out the hypocrisy of those who say nothing about overseas sales until there is a sale to China. I cannot recall the ranking but China seems to be 5 or 6 on the list but way up top for prompting outcry.
Did you recall that it was Labour who negotiated the free trade agreement with China?
Did you recall that it was Labour that wrote the rules relating to the sale of farmland to foreigners, that National tightened them and that these sale would have proceeded under Labour’s rules?
Isn’t this what Hosking is saying — that there are some who are not willing to let facts get in the way of a good story?
Mike Hosking is hardly the spokesperson for the State Broadcaster and the inference that TV1 is the modern day version of Pravda in the 60s and 70s is nonsense.
Do you really expect China to alter its laws of land tenure for little ole NZ?
Have you read this:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11291767?
Yet more investment by an NZ company in China? An interest (short of ownership, probably but still and interest in farmland.)
Do you think that maybe this article was worthy of mention or doesn’t it fit your view of our ability to invest in China? After all, as Hosking would say — why let facts get in the way of a good story?
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August 4, 2014 9:45pm
ShawnLH

The real crime syndicate in the Holy Land.

Son of Hamas founder: Hamas tortures and kills Palestinian children.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwIxuODeh3s
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August 4, 2014 10:20pm
Jack5

Re Nookin at 9.45:

Opposition to foreign sales of land has not been restricted to purchases by Republic of China interests. I have posted links in the last few days to earlier concerns about Shania Twain’s purchases in Queenstown for instance.

The point is Hosking tonight branded as xenophobic, even racist, those who question sales overseas of our freehold land.

From that, I assume he would class Brazilians as racist for that country’s action to classify land as a strategic asset with extremely tight limits on its sales to foreigners.

I meet many people who are concerned about sales overseas of our arable land and permanent grasslands, which are one of our country’s few strategic assets. All are getting pissed off with political cronies of Chinese interests and these interests’ PR hacks and lobbyists trying to silence questioning of such sales with cries of “racism!” and “xenophobia!”.

TVNZ is a State owned entity sustained by taxpayer cash piped in through Creative NZ etc, cash which it then classifies as revenue and claims to be earning a profit for the state. Publishers, including TV channels, must surely be legally liable for the statements of their employees. If not, surely they ought to preface Hosking’s show with a statement along the lines: the views expressed in this show are not necessarily the views of TVNZ.
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August 4, 2014 10:35pm
gump

@Longknives

>So our schools are going to all get seperate ‘Transgender’ toilets and changing sheds for confused kids…
Seriously.. What the fuck??

————————

Actually, they’re getting some separate toilets that anybody can use.

Not sure why this is a problem for you. But I guess you’ll make up a reason.
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August 4, 2014 11:13pm
Gulag1917

Ethnic Cleansing 101 –
Israel Wipes Out Entire Gaza Neighborhood in 1 Minute
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqFHu9tFXMQ
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August 5, 2014 12:28am
jackinabox

Someone should string up Roger Douglas, he’s the bastard who cleared the way for rich foreigners to make NZ farms too dear for New Zealanders to buy.
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August 5, 2014 3:14pm
deadrightkev

“Rankin has also claimed “the polling we have done says I have a chance of winning”. If it’s the same sort of polling Craig claimed prior to the last election that can be viewed with suspicion.”

In 2011 Craig relied on information he was provided by a so called experienced pollster. He was let down but it didn’t stop National lap bloggers like Slater character assassinating. This election I think you will find he not only has the right pollster but he can afford to make good decisions on the back of it.
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August 5, 2014 9:16pm
deadrightkev

“Someone should string up Roger Douglas, he’s the bastard who cleared the way for rich foreigners to make NZ farms too dear for New Zealanders to buy.”

What an uneducated Dickhead. He removed subsidies so farming could become efficient and competitive in the world. He also cleared the way for Kiwis to get access to global goods and services at much cheaper prices and stopped privilege for the rich via import license.
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August 5, 2014 9:21pm
jackinabox

And he also cleared the way for rich foreigners to make NZ farms too dear for New Zealanders to buy, so fuck off.
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August 6, 2014 9:11am

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Angie Warren-Clark: Meet the Newbies
Dan Moskovitz

editor@kiwiblog.co.nz

PO Box 12270, Thorndon, Wellington 6144

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