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August 21, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 21 August 2014

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stephieboy

Ugly Truth,

The paper trail of your latest canard can be traced to this review/article in The York Times Archive – Balcony Scene (Or Unseen) Atop the World; Episode at Trade Center Assumes Mythic Qualities,

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/18/nyregion/balcony-scene-unseen-atop-world-episode-trade-center-assumes-mythic-qualities.html?pagewanted=1

Quote from the link, below,

“Of course it starts with a tiny morsel of truth, which he surrounds with a gigantic, oozing mass of TROOF. Here’s the real story from the New York Times:

In short, the book belies the extravagance of the feat it seems to document: the covert installation, and brief use, of a balcony on the 91st floor of the World Trade Center, 1,100 feet above the earth. Eight photographs — some grainy, all taken from a great distance — depict one tower’s vast eastern facade, marred by a tiny molelike growth: a lone figure dressed in a white jacket, standing in a lectern-size box.

Elinoff states that they illegally lived in the towers; I don’t know whether that’s true. The New York Times says that they were legally there:

In the spring of 2000, Gelatin and 14 other artists shared free studio space on the 91st floor, where the group’s artmaking appeared to consist of building a clubhouse out of cardboard boxes.

However, most office buildings do not allow people to “live” there 24/7, so in terms of living there he may be right, but Elinoff is definitely concealing the fact that they were in the building legally.

As to the claim that Austrian and German art students were somehow tied to the Mossad, it’s laughable. That Elinoff claims he has “exclusive” information is even funnier; exclusive with the exception of the New York Times, I suppose.

At any rate, they were out of the towers by August of 2001, when the story was written in the Times. I suppose the Troofers will push the theory that these were the guys who brought the super-duper nanothermite into the building.”

Labels: Core of Corruption, Jonathan Elinoff

Your link contains a series of completely unsourced and unsubstantiated allegations typical of the 9/11 Truthers and the Jew hatred rife amongst most of them

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.co.nz/2009/10/art-students-story.html#links
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August 21, 2014 1:02pm
wreck1080

Sad website posted by a Canadian based NZ born woman who took her life before developing full blown dementia.

It is worth reading the logical conclusion she reached to justify taking her own life.

http://deadatnoon.com/index.html
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August 21, 2014 1:53pm
UrbanNeocolonialist

mandk: Re Dawkins saying should terminate Downs fetuses

I did a little research on this earlier today. Typical costs of a kid with Downs Syndrome (compared to normal kid) over their 50-60 year life are somewhere in the range of a million dollars, which in our society is mostly picked up by taxpayers, and is close to the lifetime tax paid by two working kiwis on an average income. That kid will always be a burden, and will never contribute to creating the next generation either.

They also absorb a huge amount of parental time that might otherwise be shared with siblings – or prevents the parents from having more kids at all due to extra time and expense of the Down’s kid.

So it is a choice that impacts not just the parents it is also requiring (in tax terms) something like 10 working years of other people’s time to carry through on that choice. So ideally I would want the mother (or donors) to bear any and all cost from her choice to bear a Downs child.

I note that in European countries have around 80-90% are choosing termination when they find out, which also suggests that even a majority of religious folks are pragmatic enough to choose termination.

Cue ranting by religious nutjobs and massive downticking :):
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August 21, 2014 1:54pm
mandk

@ UrbanNeocolonialist

You have completely missed the point.

Dawkins’ argument is that it is immoral to let people with Down’s Syndrome to be born.

If cost is the measure on which you base your views, you also need to undertake a cost-benefit analysis on whether any handicapped person should be allowed to be born. And what about people who are born and then become tetraplegic, brain damaged or incurably ill? Should they be denied the right life, if the costs they impose exceed the benefits?

What a dreadful, cold and cruel world you and Dawkins seem to want. Give me a Downs person any day. They may sometimes be hard work to care for, but they are full of love and joy.

And the fact that I am what you snidely refer to as a religious nutjob has nothing to do with it.
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August 21, 2014 2:21pm
kowtow

urbanneocolonialist

You’ve got to be taking the piss?
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August 21, 2014 2:27pm
UglyTruth

One aspect that will test the Evidence Act will be arguments that the ‘stolen’ files cannot be evidence

The files were not stolen. I believe Slater’s language is now “taken illegally” rather than “stolen”.
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August 21, 2014 2:35pm
UrbanNeocolonialist

I don’t want to kill babies but I am very happy to pre-select which are born in the first place to give those that are born the maximum chance of normal, happy and productive lives where they aren’t a life-long burden upon others. A fetus at 2-3 months is a lump of meat, smaller and mentally inferior to a rat (which we have no qualms about killing), and in the Downs case lacking even the potential to become Homo sapiens (members of a species being defined by genetic capability to breed with other members of that species).

Our brains are what give us personhood. If you still have your mental faculties (up to and including lock-ins) or you have real potential to recover them with current or future medicine, then living or not should be a personal choice.

In the case of severe brain damage (like Alzheimers) etc with essentially no ability to interact with others and where the person they were is gone for good with large portions of the brain destroyed then yes euthanasia is the right choice, and we should not be so scared of our own mortality that we are afraid to do so. The resources used to sustain life in such cases is pure waste that I would far rather see put into giving people in possession of their faculties better or longer lives.

The choice to bring handicapped children into the world costs the lives of others.
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August 21, 2014 3:22pm
The only red for me is that of Manchester United

Seldom watch Campbell Live, but last night I thought I would give it another try. John’s story was on explaining how Campbell Live is a balanced show in their reports. And then Campbell goes and rings a viewer who had contacted Campbell and ranted how he (the viewer) didn’t like Campbell Live and how it was unbalanced in it’s reporting. Campbell phones this chap up and asks him for examples. The old fella on the phone says he doesn’t want to talk to Campbell and hangs up. And what this told me was that this was bullying. Old fella didn’t like Campbell and smug Campbell phones old guy up to make fun of him. Because the old guy expressed his view. Of course if you have to explain to your views that you are a balanced reporting show, then you are not.

How the left bully everyone who doesn’t follow their thinking. The left who always destroy the individual.
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August 21, 2014 3:24pm
ciaron

Urban,
Have you ever spent time with Downs people? I have had the good fortune to know several and I can only say my life has been enriched by the experience.
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August 21, 2014 3:31pm
mandk

@ UrbanNeocolonialist

Your latest posting displays such ignorance, it’s mind-blowing.

A foetus at 2-3 months is not a lump of meat. It is a pre-born human being a beating hart and a functioning brain and central nervous system (check out what Christopher Hitchens had to say about this).

People with Downs Syndrome can, and do, have babies.

And the fact that someone with Downs Syndrome may have diminished mental capacity does not make them any less of a person.

You are de-humanising people as an excuse to kill them. That’s what the Nazis did.
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August 21, 2014 3:37pm
wreck1080

Herald reporting…..

Port of Tauranga lifts profit as container volumes fall
The Port of Tauranga said its underlying group net profit rose by 1.3 per cent to a record $78.3m thanks to an increase…

Stuff reporting…

Port of Tauranga profit sinks
Port of Tauranga investors appear to be shrugging off a 30 per cent drop in the company’s full-year profit

This proves the same factual news can appear totally opposite way depending on who is doing the reporting.
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August 21, 2014 3:40pm
UrbanNeocolonialist

ciaron, if you like and want Downs people in your life then that is fine by me. But you pay for them, I don’t want to, nor should I be required to, when their birth these days is the result of a choice made by the mother that commits 10-20 man-years of other peoples lives to support. That is very selfish.
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August 21, 2014 3:44pm
stigie

Just had a quick look over at at the Stranded….

I reckon the vile bile and hatred has gone to a new level !~
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August 21, 2014 4:09pm
mandk

Well, blow me down!
Who would have imagined this?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11312300

Does anyone happen to know what proportion of the members actually voted?
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August 21, 2014 4:18pm
georgebolwing

mandk:

While I wouldn’t use the term “lump of meat”, UrbanNeocolonialist is right that in the early stage of development, an embryo and then a fetus cannot be regarded as a human being. This is the whole basis of the legal position in New Zealand that aborting a fetus in the early stage of pregnancy is not murder, because murder is killing a human being and a fetus isn’t a human being (in part because it has no independent ability to survive outside the womb.

The Wiki entry “fetus” provides the following:

“Weeks 9 to 16

“In humans, the fetal stage commences at the beginning of the ninth week. At the start of the fetal stage, the fetus is typically about 30 millimetres (1.2 in) in length from crown to rump, and weighs about 8 grams. The head makes up nearly half of the fetus’ size. Breathing-like movement of the fetus is necessary for stimulation of lung development, rather than for obtaining oxygen. The heart, hands, feet, brain and other organs are present, but are only at the beginning of development and have minimal operation.”
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August 21, 2014 4:54pm
mandk

@ georgebolwing

Massive own goal! You just kicked the ball into your own net from the opposition’s six-yard box.

First you argue that a fetus cannot be regarded as a human being, and then you quote a wiki entry that starts: ” In humans, the fetal stage …”
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August 21, 2014 5:08pm
UrbanNeocolonialist

Doorstopping Jason Ede’s mum in her retirement village. Stay classy Herald.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/election-2014/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503581&objectid=11312047
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August 21, 2014 5:19pm
georgebolwing

@mandk

Try again.

The use of “human” in the Wiki article was clearly intended to differentiate the stages of foetal development in the species homo sapien from that in all the other species of mammals that have foetuses.
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August 21, 2014 5:19pm
mandk

Christopher Hitchens, pro-choice atheist:

“That the most partially formed human embryo is both human and alive has now been confirmed, in an especially vivid sense, by the new debate over stem-cell research and the bioethics of cloning. If an ailing or elderly person can be granted a new lease on life by a transfusion of this cellular material, then it is obviously not random organic matter. The original embryonic “blastocyst” may be a clump of 64 to 200 cells that is only five days old. But all of us began our important careers in that form, and every needful encoding for life is already present in the apparently inchoate. We are the first generation to have to confront this as a certain knowledge.”
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August 21, 2014 5:27pm
UglyTruth

The official guidelines further cast doubt over the Prime Minister John Key’s version of events that the Prime Minister was not made aware that intelligence documents were being declassified and prepared for fast-track release to Cameron Slater.

http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/08/21/governments-own-guidelines-show-john-key-would-have-been-informed-of-sis-release-to-whaleoil/
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August 21, 2014 5:28pm
mandk

@geoergebolwing

Exactly, the foetus of a human is a human being. It is clearly alive, even if it may not be viable.
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August 21, 2014 5:30pm
Nookin

Oh dear, Laila and Hone. I really hope you got your money upfront:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/60779357/kim-dotcom-assets-still-frozen.html
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August 21, 2014 5:35pm
kowtow

urban neonatalist

After your comments on pre selection ,i have severe reservations on your judgement about what’s classy.
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August 21, 2014 5:38pm
UrbanNeocolonialist

Foetuses are also greedy and selfish parasites that stress, mangle and frequently kill the bodies of their hosts. Thankfully the Host in most modern countries is generally has final say over when or whether they wish to be exploited thusly.
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August 21, 2014 5:54pm
nasska

The good oil…..

…”Both National and Labour have abandoned populist policy for self-interest. Especially Labour. We’ve been listening to lots of Newstalk ZB and we have the pulse of the nation.
No-one in the Conservatives is a politician, but we would like a career. We are people that teach policemen, business men that show women where to go, farmers and parents concerned about paedophiles. We will bring fresh thinking to Wellington.
If we’re elected, our role will be to keep the Government honest and on a short leash. Our leash will be uncomfortable and studded with barbs, for punishment reasons.
Our role will be to give the Government a backbone; to give them the support they need to make the tough calls, whether they’re right or wrong, unless the public say otherwise, in which case we won’t be the government’s backbone, we’ll do what the mob wants.
Our role is to make sure this Government listens to you and follows the instructions of the majority. This is also known as an ochlocracy or mobocracy, check it out on Wikipedia!

With your help we’ll make them do just that on September 20. We need your vote to count. Fortunately, the Conservatives have patent-pending prayer-vote technology to hand. If you’re planning on voting Conservative, just stay home on election day, have a cuppa, and pray for us to win! It will save you a pesky trip to a polling booth and get God onside.”…

Ref: http://colincraig.co.nz/about-us/
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August 21, 2014 6:01pm
Other_Andy

stephieboy says at 12:48 pm

“Ah Other Andy, another big conspiracy in the making . ? ”

No idea sb, as for all the usual suspects having a go, not much of a conspiracy, just relaying what is in the papers and the news.

“I support the latter..”

Not sure what the latter is in your comment
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August 21, 2014 6:04pm
Other_Andy

The usual cr@p from the TVNZ ‘news’.

1. Continuing the hatchet job on National and Key.
2. Having a teacher union executive member telling us that teachers don’t like National’s educational policies.
3. Lamenting renewed air attacks from Israel without mentioning the fact that Hamas broke the cease fire.

And they wonder why people are turning away from the MSM and ‘journalists’ are one of least trusted professions.
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August 21, 2014 6:28pm
calendar girl

Kowtow @9.43am and Tom Hunter @ 9.52am.

Thanks for your comments about a re-elected National Government selling RNZ and TVNZ to the highest bidder(s). I understand your reservations, but there’s no need for National to act vitriolically, or even to announce the sales before the Election or link them in any way to RNZ / TVNZ’s ‘dirty politics’ involvement. Justifications for sale are broad, non-political and convincing in practical terms, and can be stated in ways that would de-link Government’s decision from reaction to the Hager book. Relevant public statements would need to be skilfully-crafted, consistent, believable and disciplined (that’s always an elementary part of successful politics). The following are simply my ‘top-of-the-head’ examples of what could be used as reasons / justifications for Government’s policy decision:

1. Communications technology is now evolving so quickly and so broadly that Government is not prepared to invest further in – or underwrite financially – RNZ and TVNZ to cover alternatives to “broadcasting” as traditional broadcasting adjusts to a diminishing share of the overall communications market.
2. When former NZ Governments initiated radio and later television broadcasting in this country, the general public had no other practical means of accessing radio or TV, or other ‘live’ media. Modern, almost-universal access to the internet (not to mention the output of other, non-government broadcasters) has well and truly removed that earlier justification for Government ownership and involvement in RNZ and TVNZ.
3. This Government’s priorities in communications will be concentrated for the foreseeable future in the educational sector where the growing need for students to be linked to the internet must be met in a timely manner if NZ educational achievements are not to fall seriously behind international standards. That need far outweighs any assumed value in Government businesses being maintained and underwritten to broadcast news, documentaries, sport and soap operas.
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August 21, 2014 6:31pm
Fletch

A foetus looks exactly how it is supposed to look at that stage of development, just as a larvae doesn’t look like a mosquito, or a baby does not look like a full grown person. It doesn’t really matter WHAT it looks like, or how developed it is. It is a living and growing organism that will become your son or daughter if it is not interfered with. What else could it be? It’s not some other kind of animal, and it’s not a cancer.

I don’t see how people don’t get this. YOU looked exactly the same at that stage of development. Would it have been OK for your mother to abort YOU at that same stage? You wouldn’t have been here now.

The stage of development argument is a cop-out. A life has been conceived, and it is only through human intervention and in the destruction of that growing life that a human does not result. “Viable” or “non-viable” – all doubletalk. It makes no difference.

The ONLY difference between a baby being born or not being born (if all is healthy) is by human tampering and the killing of a growing life.

End of story.
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August 21, 2014 6:39pm
mandk

@ nasska
You’re not telling us you think that stuff is really from Colin Craig, are you?
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August 21, 2014 6:39pm
nasska

mandk

Would I try to put one over you Godgobbling conservonutter lot? 🙂
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August 21, 2014 6:41pm
mikenmild

To be fair, it’s not really necessary to satirize Colin; he does a pretty good job on himself.
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August 21, 2014 6:56pm
Longknives

Meet your new King! People of ‘Aotearoa’…

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/10408551/Maori-King-My-son-didn-t-get-special-treatment

Look at the state of him, lurking in the background- He can’t even pretend to be sincere…
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August 21, 2014 7:00pm
EAD

Oops – guess this wasn’t meant to happen:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/10407790/Friend-of-ice-bucket-challenge-founder-drowns

This whole “ice bucket” challenge is a great example of group conformity psychology. It’s odd how so many sheeple can catch on to a retarded thing like this in 2 seconds and millions of them will do it.

But hey, try to talk to them about the monetary system, currency collapse, or buying a few ounces of silver & gold and well, you all know how that ends up. All of a sudden you become a space alien and they can’t understand a damn thing you’re talking about and they couldn’t give a flying f**k either.

Oh, but these half-wits will dump a buck of water on their head cause their mates tell them to. Wow……what daredevils.

Of course you can’t start a trend for storing alternative forms of currency outside the fiat system, can you? Nope, of course not…..that would be too bl**dy practical for the sheeple

I don’t know why shit like this pisses me off so much…but it freakin’ does. I guess it’s because I see all those people’s lives going right down the fucking drain right behind those buckets of water and I think:

What a fucking waste.
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August 21, 2014 7:57pm
nasska

A Catholic Priest was disheartened at his empty church every Sunday, especially as the Mosque next door was packed at every call to prayer.

“What am I doing wrong?” He asked the Mullah.

“Well what happens to a Catholic when they die?” Said the Mullah.

“They spend eternity in heaven in the company of God, Jesus, the virgin Mary, and all the saints the angels,” replied the priest.

“Ah, there’s your problem,” answered the Mullah, ” only one virgin.”
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August 21, 2014 8:04pm
kowtow

The news reported the Muslim who slaughtered journalist Foley spoke with a “multicultural” London accent ,much the same as the accent of the guy who slaughtered Drummer Rigby.Remember that outrage on the streets of London?

Make all the Muslim jokes you like , but the west faces a huge problem with this “progressive” multicultural agenda.

Time to stop Muslim immigration. Islam is the cancer that Obama refused to name.
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August 21, 2014 8:32pm
Johnboy

The good thing about Muslim’s in our society kowtow is that if we decide to start beheading them they are easy to pick out! 🙂

Bit like a honky in Syria really.
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August 21, 2014 8:47pm
Johnboy

Your patience has been rewarded Minus! 🙂
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August 21, 2014 8:51pm
Viking2

Four years after a bitter industrial row over the filming of The Hobbit the New Zealand screen industry body Spada and actors union Equity have made their peace.

Spada has signed an agreement with the union on terms and conditions for people working in the industry – ending years of friction over replacing the previous outdated actors deal known as The Pink Book.

The new agreement has been backed by taxpayer funding agencies the NZ Film Commission and NZ On Air and will apply to local productions made by Spada members.

A big-budget movie by the Hollywood studio DreamWorks, The Light Between Oceans, is set to start filming in New Zealand next month and it will abide by the agreement, even though it is not compulsory.

The Hobbit dispute in 2010 was ugly, with union officials receiving threats and anti-union marches through the streets.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11312411

Of course the sniveling Little, Kelly and co. won’t recognize this for the positive it really is.
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August 22, 2014 6:57am
Nookin

I wonder if we will see Penny lambasting the council for not contracting out road construction functions

http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/10408256/200-jobs-at-risk-after-roading-firms-liquidation
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August 22, 2014 7:13am
wf

GOLD!

Plunket vs Gower.

Gower can’t remember anything at all. Nada. Zilch. Guilty.
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August 22, 2014 10:58am

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