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August 20, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 20 August 2014

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General Debate

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dime

PG – deliberately dirty, yep. illegal? no.

its a question of ethics. whale doesnt have many, he admits it.

i think your wallet anology is wrong.
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August 20, 2014 9:25pm
freemark

@PG
That’s not hacking to any extent like KDC (oops I mean Whalespew) has done was it?
Whale didn’t release any data did he?
He pointed out that Labour were not very smart..it was possibly “the worlds greatest sysop” who was the Labour I.T. guy…
Fuck what a non story..especially when he didn’t release any info!!!
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August 20, 2014 9:32pm
Judith

[249. Accessing computer system for dishonest purpose—

(1) Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years who, directly or indirectly, accesses any computer system and thereby, dishonestly or by deception, and without claim of right, —

(a) obtains any property, privilege, service, pecuniary advantage, benefit, or valuable consideration; or

(b) to cause loss to any other person.

(3) In this section, “deception” has the same meaning as in section 240(2).]

I am not sure that if it was put before a Court that Slater would get away with it, it depends on how vigorously it was pursued I think, especially going from the conversation Pete George has shown. There was clear intent to cause harm to ‘someone’ by the actions. It would be an interesting test case.
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August 20, 2014 9:33pm
muggins

flipper
Yes , Binnie’s report is garbage. You know that. So shut up about Bain’s compensation.
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August 20, 2014 9:35pm
Judith

240 Obtaining by deception or causing loss by deception
(1)Every one is guilty of obtaining by deception or causing loss by deception who, by any deception and without claim of right,—
(a)obtains ownership or possession of, or control over, any property, or any privilege, service, pecuniary advantage, benefit, or valuable consideration, directly or indirectly; or
(b)in incurring any debt or liability, obtains credit; or
(c)induces or causes any other person to deliver over, execute, make, accept, endorse, destroy, or alter any document or thing capable of being used to derive a pecuniary advantage; or
(d)causes loss to any other person.
(2)In this section, deception means—
(a)a false representation, whether oral, documentary, or by conduct, where the person making the representation intends to deceive any other person and—
(i)knows that it is false in a material particular; or
(ii)is reckless as to whether it is false in a material particular; or
(b)an omission to disclose a material particular, with intent to deceive any person, in circumstances where there is a duty to disclose it; or
(c)a fraudulent device, trick, or stratagem used with intent to deceive any person.
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August 20, 2014 9:35pm
RightNow

dammit, I can’t access dime’s hooker list. Must have been hacked.
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August 20, 2014 9:36pm
Judith

Point 2 (C) above.

stratagem
ˈstratədʒəm/Submit
noun
a plan or scheme, especially one used to outwit an opponent or achieve an end.

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM330422.html
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August 20, 2014 9:42pm
RightNow

Mitigating circumstances when the opponents are witless though Judith.
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August 20, 2014 9:52pm
Nostalgia-NZ

It looks like Aaron Bhatnagar got a wink and a nod.
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August 20, 2014 9:52pm
Nostalgia-NZ

I wonder if the SIS will be doing a down phone bugs, phone shoes and horn rimmed glasses in protest at being investigated. Even an optimist would probably grudgingly admit that things were a bit ‘topsy turvy’ a the moment with the Nats back to 48%, Winston making a big gain and old Aaron getting himself in the news, sort of naked.
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August 20, 2014 10:06pm
publicwatchdog

Here you go Kiwibloggers – am I the only one asking this HARD question?

Is New Zealand’s former Minister of Police, and current Minister of Justice Judith Collins a ‘psychopath’?

Definition of a psychopath:

http://psychcentral.com/news/2006/07/03/improving-the-definition-of-%E2%80%98psychopath%E2%80%99/64.html

A better definition of ‘Psychopath’

By RICK NAUERT PHD Senior News Editor

Reviewed by John M. Grohol, Psy.D. on July 3, 2006

Are some corporate CEO’s, doctors, lawyers, politicians and scientists psychopaths? The answer could be “yes” if you use a definition which labels individuals who are often intelligent and highly charismatic, but display a chronic inability to feel guilt, remorse or anxiety about any of their actions. Tack on the use of violence and intimidation to control others and satisfy selfish needs and the label expands.

______________________________________________________________________________________________

How to Identify a Psychopath

One Methods:Identifying Psychopaths with the Hare Checklist

The Hare Psychopathy Checklist was initially developed to assess the mental condition of people who commit crimes, and it is commonly used to diagnose people who may exhibit the traits and tendencies of a psychopath. Most mental health professionals define a psychopath as a predator who takes advantage of others using charm, deceit, violence and other methods to get what they want. Identify a psychopath by using the Hare Psychopathy Checklist and trusting your own intuition.

http://www.wikihow.com/Identify-a-Psychopath
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

Penny Bright
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August 20, 2014 10:40pm
OneTrack

Ms Bright, why don’t you do the test on Collins and tell us what the result is. While you are at it, do it for KDC, Cunliffe and Norman.

Oh. Wait.
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August 20, 2014 11:08pm
OneTrack

spc – “Casting for Moby Dick, the tale of a quest for a 4 term government…”

We better make the most of it because if the hard left coalition of incompetence get in to Government, too many costly conditions would put on them and the film company would head offshore. Weta would put their computers in a container and follow them.

Comrade Kelly will wave them off at the airport, yelling “The peoples republic of aotearoa doesn’t need you. We’ll make ‘Whale Rider vs the evil colonists Piano’ ourselves”.
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August 20, 2014 11:20pm
Sofia

Here you go Kiwibloggers – am I the only one asking this HARD question?

Penny, on the same psychcentral.com site you quote from
_______________

Symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder
In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:

• Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
• Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

• Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

• Requires excessive admiration

• Has a very strong sense of entitlement, e.g., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

• Is exploitative of others, e.g., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

• Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

• Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

• Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

• Demands kiwiblogger attention and then is usually rude, guaranteeing a negative response, so the cuckoo “shit in someone else’s nest” can be repeated ad nauseam.

Score? ______
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August 20, 2014 11:33pm
RightNow

Laila Harré: (her facebook status update)

Vote – because the National Party doesn’t want you to. This is how they explain their Dirty Politics:

“There are a few basic propositions with negative campaigning that are worth knowing about. It lowers turnout, favours right more than left as the right continues to turn out, and drives away the independents.’ [Simon Lusk, National Party strategist]

“In short, many people stop participating in politics. If politicians cannot be trusted, if politics looks like a petty or ugly game, and if no one seems to be talking about the things that matter, then what’s the point of bothering to participate? Just leave them to it….tactics do not have to be just about winning votes; they can be equally effective if groups of people in society just stop voting altogether.” [p132]

Does she really not think the book Dirty Politics is dirty politics itself and won’t have the same effect?
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August 20, 2014 11:47pm
Pete George

PG – deliberately dirty, yep. illegal? no.

Whether it was illegal or not is disputed by lawyers. There appears to be no legal precedent so there’s uncertainty what a court would find. This is well covered by lawyer Jono Natusch in WAS A CRIME COMMITTED WHEN SLATER ACCESSED LABOUR’S COMPUTER SYSTEM?

He concludes:

Nonetheless, regardless of whether we’ve all got authorisation to access the Labour Party website, Slater’s posts of the time, and Ede’s Facebook/email correspondence with Slater, make it plain that they knew they were accessing something that the Labour Party did not want accessed by the general public.

To me, that clearly brings s 252(2) into play – you’ve got authorisation to surf the Labour Party website, but when you stumble on (or are tipped off about) a publicly accessible backdoor route into membership and donation databases, it should be obvious that you’ve gone beyond the purpose of access, thus negating the right of access you previously had.

Frankly, I don’t think Graeme Edgeler’s proposed defence would fly.

Which means we now await the outcome of the Police complaint, and see who they agree with…

Regardless of the law I don’t think there’s any doubt about the dirty and damaging intent.

This may or may not be judged in a court but the actions and discussions of Slater and Bhatnagar should be deplored on decency and democratic grounds.

And I think John Key has made a major error of judgment refusing to condemn this and other examples of a deluge of despicable politicking.
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August 21, 2014 6:18am
publicwatchdog

Sofia – I’m a self-funded, truth-telling ‘Whistle-blower’ – who doesn’t do dirty politics.

I’ll stand on my proven track record – my comments on Kiwiblog since Day One.

Keep up your ad hominem attacks Sofia – I find it proves I’m being effective.

‘You don’t cop the flak unless you’re over the target’.

Penny Bright

(Who at least puts her name to her posts).
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August 21, 2014 7:38am
graham

Sofia at 11:33 pm –

Here you go Kiwibloggers – nope, you’re not the only one asking the HARD questions.

I’ve asked Penny a number of very pertinent questions, as have David Garrett, Nookin and several other people. But apparently all these questions are too HARD for Penny Bright to answer, because she simply ignores them.

The equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and singing loudly “LA LA LA, I can’t HEEEAR you!”
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August 21, 2014 7:42am
UglyTruth

Hacking is illegal, and when it occurs and the offender caught there must be punishment. That is a definite.

What it the hacking uncovered a criminal conspiracy?
Doesn’t the hacker get any credit for acting in the public interest?
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August 21, 2014 8:05am
graham

Answers to some, any, or all of these will do for starters:

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/10/general_debate_2_october_2012.html#comment-1028893
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/12/nz_least_corrupt_again.html#comment-1057510
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/12/nz_least_corrupt_again.html#comment-1057557
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/12/nz_least_corrupt_again.html#comment-1057785
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/09/general_debate_6_september_2012.html#comment-1018509
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/09/general_debate_6_september_2012.html#comment-1018513
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/09/general_debate_6_september_2012.html#comment-1018521
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/09/general_debate_6_september_2012.html#comment-1018527
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/10/general_debate_12_october_2012-2.html#comment-1034830
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/04/general_debate_16_april_2011.html#comment-820195
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/04/general_debate_16_april_2011.html#comment-820284
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/04/general_debate_16_april_2011.html#comment-820290
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/04/general_debate_16_april_2011.html#comment-820331
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/04/general_debate_16_april_2011.html#comment-820345
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/04/general_debate_16_april_2011.html#comment-820353
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/04/general_debate_16_april_2011.html#comment-820571
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/06/greens_trying_to_buy_a_referendum.html#comment-977795
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/06/greens_trying_to_buy_a_referendum.html#comment-977805
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/08/general_debate_7_august_2014.html#comment-1374734
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/08/general_debate_7_august_2014.html#comment-1374745
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/08/general_debate_7_august_2014.html#comment-1374802
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/08/general_debate_5_august_2014.html#comment-1373380
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/08/christchurch_council_considers_partial_privatisations.html#comment-1373862

Meant – as always – in a CARING way 🙂
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August 21, 2014 8:10am
Pete George

Doesn’t the hacker get any credit for acting in the public interest?

Depends on how they act, and if they put more emphasis on self interest than public interest.
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August 21, 2014 8:53am

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