General Debate 22 July 2014

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mikenmild

First!
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July 22, 2014 8:01am
Chuck Bird

This is an interesting article by Darryn Hinch. There are couple of other interesting articles there that is would be best not to discuss on KB as it could get you and DPF in trouble with the Court.

Some Poster Boy
by Derryn Hinch
–
Monday, 21 July 2014

IAN THORPE FINALLY swimming out of the closet prompted some necessary soul-searching about homophobia in sport and attitudes of players as well as spectators.

It seemed that gay sportsmen and women still fear revealing their sexuality which shows we haven’t come far since rugby league player Ian Roberts came out nearly twenty years ago.

The Thorpe interview with Michael Parkinson prompted an ‘exclusive’ Fairfax article by senior writer Jill Stark under the headline:

Study Shows Gay Athletes Face Rampant Homophobia.

http://www.humanheadline.com.au/hinch-says/some-poster-boy
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July 22, 2014 8:06am
big bruv

I’m trying to watch Breakfast TV this morning. It is proving somewhat difficult because one of the talking heads insists on speaking in a language that is totally foreign to me and the bulk of Kiwis.

When does this shit stop?
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July 22, 2014 8:10am
Pete George

Yesterday Metiria Turei launched a new Green policy. In the media release she promoted poverty eight times.

But the policy itself barely addresses poverty and seems to be clearly targeting middle New Zealand. Giving two year olds twenty hours of government (taxpayer) funded Early Childhood Education ($300-400 million per year) is not going to feed many starving kids.

Unless that’s what poverty means to the Greens.

Greens talk poverty but target middle NZ vote.
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July 22, 2014 8:10am
Judith

big bruv (13,176 comments) says:
July 22nd, 2014 at 8:10 am

When does this shit stop?

When you learn te reo! 😛
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July 22, 2014 8:15am
kowtow

Yep ,Maori Language Week.More top down, imposed social change from our permanent political class,paid for by unwilling taxpayers.

Aren’t progressive policies marvellous?
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July 22, 2014 8:16am
Tauhei Notts

Judith,
I get the impression that you would be expert in 18th century Maori literature. And be proud of your expertise.
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July 22, 2014 8:17am
big bruv

Judith

There would be more chance of you shagging Johnboy than me learning an irrelevant language like Maori.
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July 22, 2014 8:18am
Judith

@ Pete George (22,695 comments) says:
July 22nd, 2014 at 8:10 am

Actually that is part of what poverty means Pete. When the family has to spend everything they have to feed their children, and are unable to pay for extras like Early Childhood Education, that is deemed a minimum standard in this country, then poverty is an acceptable reason.

Poverty is relative – it is about all children having what we deem as minimum standards. Personally, I do not believe that children need early childhood education. My children never had it and all could read basic words and count before they went to school. But our powers that be have deemed it is necessary and therefore those that are not getting it due to the inability to meet the cost, need to be provided with it – well according to them, anyway.
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July 22, 2014 8:18am
Judith

@ Tauhei Notts (1,600 comments) says:
July 22nd, 2014 at 8:17 am

Actually, no, when they discover it, I won’t be an expert on it – I can’t even speak more than about 10 words in te reo – but like Norm, I never let a chance go by – to be a smart arse! 😛
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July 22, 2014 8:20am
Judith

@ big bruv (13,177 comments) says:
July 22nd, 2014 at 8:18 am

Goodness, you made me spit my hot chocolate out!!!

Never mind, you just concentrate on speaking da’ english bro! 😛
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July 22, 2014 8:21am
kowtow

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100280803/iraqi-christians-are-raped-murdered-and-driven-from-their-homes-and-the-west-is-silent/

Why the silence over this and yet so vocal on Gaza and its terrorists.
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July 22, 2014 8:22am
Tarquin North

I saw Nigel Latta trying to tell everyone 270,000 children live in poverty while trying to promote his new tv program on Seven Sharp last night. All this while he masquerades as an independant commentator. I’ll give him one thing, he’s good at multi tasking. I never realised he was such a poster boy for the left, I just thought he liked the sound of his own voice and how he looked in the mirror. Message to Nigel, if children in this country are living in poverty it is because of their parents choices not the government.
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July 22, 2014 8:31am
Judith

@ Tarquin North (105 comments) says:
July 22nd, 2014 at 8:31 am

So children should have to go without what is deemed as basic necessities in NZ, because their parents have made poor choices?
If their parents only make poor choices, how will we teach the children to make good choices, unless we step in and break the cycle, or do we just allow the cycle to continue, and get worse?
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July 22, 2014 8:34am
Lance

@kowtow
The safest place in the entire middle ease for Arab Christians is Israel.
The only place in the middle east that has a functioning Democracy is Israel
The only place in the middle east where Women are treated as equals is Israel
The only place in the middle east Homosexuals aren’t murdered once outed is Israel
That’s why the liberals hate Israel so much, it’s so opposed to everything they stand for… no … wait.
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July 22, 2014 8:34am
ross411

Judith (7,422 comments) says:
July 22nd, 2014 at 8:18 am

Actually that is part of what poverty means Pete. When the family has to spend everything they have to feed their children, and are unable to pay for extras like Early Childhood Education, that is deemed a minimum standard in this country, then poverty is an acceptable reason.

A fairy tale portrayal by the privileged. My mother’s a teacher in a poor area, and what it really means is that the poor kids get sent to school hungry while the parents have a flash car they can’t afford, smoke and so forth. The expectation is that the school will feed them. They don’t get spent time with, certainly not to practice their alphabet, writing, reading and so forth.

There are no real poor in this country, just people who squander and neglect.
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July 22, 2014 8:36am
Judith

@ ross411 (220 comments) says:
July 22nd, 2014 at 8:36 am

So we should not offer any assistance to the children because its their fault they have shocking parents? We should just continue to let the cycle repeat itself, and not make any attempt to break it?
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July 22, 2014 8:45am
Dean Papa

Anyone know how to unblock the live streaming so I can listen to Alan Jones’ radio show? I can’t seem to get hola to do it.
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July 22, 2014 8:48am
Redbaiter

TWENTY EXAMPLES OF WHAT LIBERALISM/ PROGRESSIVISM REALLY IS.
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July 22, 2014 8:50am
Bovver

We do offer assistance Jude, ever heard of WFF….
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July 22, 2014 8:50am
EAD

Despite all of the Western MSM telling us almost from the moment the plane went down that Putin is guilty despite no evidence as yet, there are a few things they will not report:

They will not report that the crisis in Ukraine started late last year, when EU and US-supported protesters plotted the overthrow of the elected Ukrainian president, Viktor Yanukovych.

They are not reporting that the Ukrainian government also uses the exact same Russian-made weapons as the Rebels.

They will not report that the post-coup government in Kiev has, according to OSCE monitors, killed 250 people in the breakaway Lugansk region since June, including 20 killed as government forces bombed the city center the day after the plane crash! Most of these are civilians and together they roughly equal the number killed in the plane crash. By contrast, Russia has killed no one in Ukraine, and the separatists have struck largely military, not civilian, targets.

They will not report that neither Russia nor the separatists in eastern Ukraine have anything to gain but everything to lose by shooting down a passenger liner full of civilians.

They will not report that the Ukrainian government has much to gain by pinning the attack on Russia, and that the Ukrainian prime minister has already expressed his pleasure that Russia is being blamed for the attack.

They will not report that the missile that apparently shot down the plane was from a sophisticated surface-to-air missile system that requires a good deal of training that the separatists do not have.

They are not reporting that the separatists in eastern Ukraine have inflicted considerable losses on the Ukrainian government in the week before the plane was downed.

They will not report how similar this is to last summer’s US claim that the Assad government in Syria had used poison gas against civilians in Ghouta. Assad was also gaining the upper hand in his struggle with US-backed rebels and the US claimed that the attack came from Syrian government positions. Then, US claims led us to the brink of another war in the Middle East. At the last minute public opposition forced Obama to back down – and we have learned since then that US claims about the gas attack were false.

Like George Orwell once said in 1984 “In a time of universal deceit – telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”

Like http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/july/20/what-the-media-won%E2%80%99t-report-about-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17.aspx
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July 22, 2014 8:51am
Judith

@ Bovver (142 comments) says:
July 22nd, 2014 at 8:50 am

Clearly we are not targeting any assistance offered in the right direction, because the situation does not seem to be improving.

We need to return to the old adage of providing the fishing line and hook, rather than the meal. I accept the parents generation is past teaching, but the children are not. If we want any sort of productive community in the future, we have to stop the cycle of uselessness, and start making an effort to teach all in society to reach their full potential (regardless of who or what their parents are).

Whilst it irks me that I have done this for my children, and why should I have to do it for others, I realise that my children will continue to pay for those that don’t, well into their adult years, and so it should concern me for what it is going to cost them, if something is not done to break that cycle now.
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July 22, 2014 8:56am
thePeoplesFlag

After three days and 25 dead Israeli soldiers the heroic defenders of Shujai’iya are still resisting with small arms and home made weapons all the fury and might of the Israeli assault.

The Israelis may have a monopoly on the firepower, but they’ve don’t have a monopoly on willpower and courage.
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July 22, 2014 8:57am
BeaB

Guyon Espiner this morning in his whispery voice let Jan Logie completely off the hook as she wittered away about the PM flying off on holiday when he should have been here apologising to their poster girl.
This whole thing reeks of a political beat up.
And although they keep saying the PM should apologise, they never say what for.
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July 22, 2014 8:59am
Komata

Judith

Re: Early Childhood Eduction and ‘…The inability to meet the cost….’

We are possibly of a similar age (‘Boomer’s perhaps?) in that we are aware of the value of education and took steps to educate our children BEFORE they went to school and to give them the ability to communicate verbally, via the written word and to read; if only in simple sentences. Early Childhood Eduction’ if it existed at all, would have consisted of either kindy or (much later) play centre, with kindy being always the preferred option. As part of our efforts to prepare our children for school and the ‘real world’, we probably made use of the local Public Library.

Such libraries still exist and their resources are available to all who wish to use them, (even if some councils now insist on the ‘user pays’ principle before allowing books to be removed), yet these resources are under-utilised and their existence is never advertised. At their most basic they actually provide a low-cost means of self-eduction.

HOWEVER, the problem is that, as previously noted, the existence of Public Libraries is now never mentioned and I do wonder if it is perhaps it is time to revive the idea that reading is ‘cool’ and actually ‘healthy’, and to get people back into books?

I would suggest that, a ‘return to reading’ and the very positive benefits that accrue from such a practice, would go a long way to solving the ‘…Inability to meet the cost’ aspect that you mentioned’, could perhaps start a ‘home eduction / self-education’ movement and could even lead to a reduction in the dependency that many have on state institutions.

Just a thought; I would be interested in your opinion.

Thanks.
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July 22, 2014 9:00am
stephieboy

Redbaiter,

20 EXAMPlES OF WHAT CONSERVATISM REALLY IS,

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/20-examples-of-what-conservatism-really-is/question-4417
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July 22, 2014 9:01am
Pete George

Judith, I agree there’s a bit of “poverty” addressing in the ECE policy but the poorest families – or voters – are hardly the target of the policy.

It’s a matter of priorities, and as far as poverty goes this doesn’t seem to me to be targeting it well.

In an email about this policy Turei said “205,000 kiwi kids going without the basics” = getting twenty hours education a week at age two is barely a “basic”.

It will mostly be used by middle New Zealand working families who already get substantial assistance. I know families who use the current 3-5 year old funded ECE as parent-at-home time out.

I’m not against the policy, if the cost – $300-400 million – can be justified amongst other priorities.
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July 22, 2014 9:07am
Judith

@ EAD

Yes, I am a ‘boomer’ and yes, a visit to the library was a very big part of our family life, as was play centre.

I agree with you totally regarding books. I firmly believe you can tell a lot about a child’s future, by simply asking them how many books are in their home. Sadly today, there are children who will be unable to answer that question, because the only books they can think of are adult books, such as the tv guide or the phone book.

Television of course played a major role. A parent didn’t need to sit and ‘explain the bigger words’ and so forth, so children not only missed out on some valuable learning opportunities, but also on the one-to-one parent contact. There are so many families today where the parents never sit with the children. That sounds extreme, but it is true. The children watch tv, whilst the parent goes about their tasks etc, the children eat in front of tv and go to bed directly from being in front of a television set. (Which raises many issues regarding stimulation of the visual cortex and the ability to maintain restful sleep as well).

Reading a book to a children is much more than just a learning experience, it develops relationship skills and imagination. Libraries are important, but how to get that message through is the million dollar question.
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July 22, 2014 9:12am
Bovver

Jude, if want to provide the fishing line and hook you should definitely be voting Blue.
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July 22, 2014 9:13am
Redbaiter

8 comments by Judith out of 28 comments overall??

In 1 hour?

FFS…..

So many words, so little time.
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July 22, 2014 9:15am
Griff

Red Blather you are not a conservative.

You are against progress of any sort
That makes you a retardist
Retard for short
You should go back to swinging around in the trees like a good un progressed monkey.
and stop cluttering up this LIBERAL PROGRESSIVE blog with pathetic propaganda designed for ignorant redneck usa
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July 22, 2014 9:21am
J Bloggs

Komata: While I’m not of a similar age (Gen X) – I have both been reading to my children since they were born, and demonstrated my own love of reading (by them seeing me relaxing with a book) all through their early years. While I never formally tried to teach them to read in any systematic way, they have consistantly been above their age for reading once they started. And at thier last birthday their reactions to presents were “Clothes – meh, lego – that’s cool, BOOKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

And yes, Public libraries are under-rated – both as a learning opportunity, and as a way of keeping kids entertained for ages at no cost!!!!! The local library is one of the most popular destinations for holiday outings in this household.

But, IMHO, the key has been that we, the parents, have shown to our children the value of reading right from the start.
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July 22, 2014 9:22am
Brian Smaller

After three days and 25 dead Israeli soldiers the heroic defenders of Shujai’iya are still resisting with small arms and home made weapons all the fury and might of the Israeli assault.

The Israelis may have a monopoly on the firepower, but they’ve don’t have a monopoly on willpower and courage.

They will fight until the last kid they have to hide behind is dead.
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July 22, 2014 9:23am
Judith

@ Pete George (22,697 comments) says:
July 22nd, 2014 at 9:07 am

The biggest error has been in using the word poverty – I guess it was chosen for its emotive value, however, for most Kiwis a symbol of poverty is a small thin child with a swollen belly, holding a rice bowl. Of course that image just doesn’t assimilate with anything we see in New Zealand.

What is being flaunted as poverty is in fact deprivation. There are children in New Zealand who for various reasons, none of which are their own doing, who are deprived from accessing what we deem to be basic requirements in this country.

Personally I think there has been too much involvement from people with various axes to grind into the debate, which has now become so complicated, and has absorbed so much money, that it is out of control – especially by those who see addressing poverty as a ‘gravy train’ for their own benefit.

The big question is of course, how to solve it.

If it was up to me, I’d go back to the beginning. Just exactly what do New Zealand children need to be able to reach their full potential. (Of course we need to define ‘full potential’ first).

Once we have identified a realistic list of what we expect for minimum standards, then we can work out how we are going to assist parents in providing that for their children. By assistance I do not mean welfare, or subsidies, but more educating parents/potential parents on how they can and should play a fundamental role in (for example) educating and encouraging their children to develop skills (especially when the family finances do not allow them to pay others to do this for them).
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July 22, 2014 9:26am
Manolo

Fear of the tyrant? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2699984/Russian-billionaires-horror-sanctions-threat-theyre-terrified-Putin-speak-out.html
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July 22, 2014 9:27am
Griff

http://www.munichreamerica.com/mram/en/publications-expertise/global-topics-experts/weather/index.html
Weather Risk
When nature becomes a threat

The North American continent is exposed to every type of hazardous weather peril – tropical cyclone, thunderstorm, winter storm, tornado, wildfire, drought and flood. And nowhere in the world is the rising number of natural catastrophes more evident than here. The number of weather-related loss events in North America for the past three decades has nearly quintupled.

Like the number of weather catastrophes, the losses they caused in North America is increasing. Even disregarding 2005 (a record year with Hurricanes Katrina, Rita and Wilma), overall and insured losses reveal an upward trend in the past three decades. In 2011, insured property damage due to thunderstorms was the highest on record at an estimated US$ 26bn – more than double the previous US thunderstorm record set in 2010.

Anthropogenic climate change is believed to contribute to this trend, though it influences various perils in different ways. Climate change particularly affects formation of heat-waves, droughts, intense precipitation events, and in the long run most probably also tropical cyclone intensity. The view that weather extremes are becoming more frequent and intense in various regions due to global warming is in keeping with current scientific findings, as set out in the Fourth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) as well as in the special report on weather extremes and disasters (SREX).
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July 22, 2014 9:30am
Nookin

Tarquin says

“I never realised he was such a poster boy for the left,…”
I watched the interview last night and it did not get the impression that he was a poster boy for the left. He started off talking about “Cunliffe’s” holiday and said something to the effect that taking the holiday was no reason to damn “Cunliffe” – there were plenty of other reasons to do that. He repeatedly referred to “Cunliffe” but, when talking about Key, he referred to “John Key”. It became quite obvious that he had little time for Cunliffe and it was not until most of the way through the interview that he realised that he was expressing a jaundiced view of Cunliffe and referred to “David Cunliffe”.
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July 22, 2014 9:30am
Judith

@ Redbaiter (7,518 comments) says:
July 22nd, 2014 at 9:15 am

For a start I am a fast typist, although not to accurate. Secondly, I’m a fast thinker, although again you might argue, not a very accurate one.

I get up at 4.30 am most days, so I can get at least 2-3 hours writing/marking/study done before the rest of my world wakes up. By 8 a.m. I am almost in the middle of my day – and take the next few hours to do some surfing, check on the news, KB and a couple of other blogs I sometimes visit. Some days I have more time than others.

Of course there is the other factor, that my day just doesn’t feel complete until I have upset you in some way or other 🙂
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July 22, 2014 9:30am
Pete George

Cunliffe does something well – a wet bus ticket.

He denied he’d lost control of his MPs and the wider party, but would not seek to dole out punishment for the claims.

“It’s always a team game and ultimately it’s collective responsibility,” he said.

“Each and every one of us has a responsibility to do the best we can for the movement.

“Of course it is inappropriate and regrettable when people try to take things into their own hands and are disloyal to the team and to their leader.

“Ultimately the result is they hurt their colleagues and they hurt the movement, and possibly the person who is concerned, who I do not think is an MP, has had time to reflect on that – and I [will be] very surprised if anything happens like that again.”

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10294305/Cunliffe-The-fightback-begins-now

The whole of New Zealand will be gobsmacked if anything happens like that again. Yeah, nah.
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July 22, 2014 9:33am
big bruv

Very well said Griff.
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July 22, 2014 9:38am
Pete George

The biggest error has been in using the word poverty

Yes. Overusing it. We could do with being deprived of the word and actual issues addressed without resorting to overused words that were always debatable and are now meaningless. Pushing ‘poverty’ too hard may become a turn off for voters.
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July 22, 2014 9:39am
stephieboy

EAD,

the facts are Victor Yanukovitch was overthrown by the Ukrainian people due to a lack of economic progress , poor living standards , his pro Russian stance and they much preferring the idea of joining the EU than the oligarchic despotic Russian system.
There is absolutely no evidence the US sponsored or supported the protests unless you believe the Kremlin controlled RT and other news agencies .
As the link below shows its all part of a strategic game played out by Putin’s Russia ,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696711/What-need-know-Ukraine-country-divided-political-u

The BUK 37 anti missile system and its variations and implements have been in operation since 1979.Yes the Ukraine has some of these and yes some of these fell into Doensk Rebel hands. Russian News agencies reported this fact but subsequently withdrew them .
EAD and Paul Craig Roberts ,WHY.?

Murder of Russian separatists or as result of military actions e.g the downing of the Ukraine AN 26 transporter and other clashes ??

If the Rebels are blamed , as it seems very likely the case , then yes it would be a big blow to Putin’s credibility and stature not least the Rebels Russia is supporting and sponsoring in the Eastern Ukraine.

The more modern variant of the BUK 37 is relatively easy to operate and there is evidence Moscow is providing the rebels with logistic support and advice . Recall also the Rebels were very proud of shooting down an Ukrainian AN 26 shortly before the downing of MH 17

The canard by PCR about Syria is a Polemic which like his other opining in your post has little or no respect for evidence and the facts
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July 22, 2014 9:40am
flipper

Poverty, child poverty, yes.

That must be a problem because the would-be social engineers tell us that crappy, uncaring parents are our problem. And to make sure of that they present a convincing”: case, they have constructed their own definition.

When I was attending primary school in Napier, my Father ran his own logging hauling business, and my mother was the “senior” typist clerk in the town’s leading law office. We owned (well, were buying) our own home, my mother had a new Morris 8 car, and the family assistance payments received went into savings accounts for my brother and I. Once I even got to fly in a DC 3 from Napier to Wellington for an eye surgery consultation. (Actually the road party from Paraparaumu to Wellington took longer than the flight to Paraparaumu).

But I was “poor”, and my younger brother was poor, because we could not afford to attend Hereworth School in Havelock North, and, crime of crimes, when it rained we ran to school in our bare feet. Gumboots? What were gumboots?

The social engineers of 2014 have so skewed the definition of poverty that my brother and I would be classified as “poor” by their idiotic definition. And they go further than gumboots to include Sky and paid holidays (we took a tent and went to a river to hunt eels).

The poverty issue in 2014 is parental selfishness and deliberate, uncaring neglect. I take no responsibility whatsoever. The social engineers can get stuffed.
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July 22, 2014 9:45am
Tarquin North

Judith, after much thinking (very hard for me) I have come up with a solution for your children in poverty problem. Vouchers! Ones you can’t buy alcohol and smokes with, the TAB won’t take them and they won’t fit into a pokie machine. I just know you’ll love my idea! And the good news is, if people don’t like them they don’t have to accept them. Benefits aren’t compulsory! Mind you if the Greens ever get in they probably will be.
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July 22, 2014 9:52am
stigie

Reddy not biting today….I think he sees the writing is on the wall ?
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July 22, 2014 9:52am
Judith

@ Tarquin North (106 comments) says:
July 22nd, 2014 at 9:52 am

I don’t like the idea at all Tarquin – sorry. Apart from being very open to abuse in that they can be sold for cash to people that do need those items, it is more of ‘ambulance at the bottom of the cliff’ stuff. It does not teach anyone anything other than if you fail to provide, someone else will do it for you. As a short term measure, maybe, as a long term remedy – no way.
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July 22, 2014 9:56am
stephieboy

At last I’ve found a link with the Voice of Russia item news report intact where they boasted about a Ukrainian Anti Air to surface system falling into pro Russian rebel hands.
My earlier links had the news item removed. IBT somehow was able to keep it intact.

http://www.ibtimes.com/mh17-crash-kremlin-backed-rebels-seized-soviet-buk-missile-ukrainian-base-only-weeks-1632758

Paul Craig Roberts, EAD and Ugly Truth and other tin foil hatters will just love these Conspiracy theories about M17 gushing forth from the Kremlin controlled Russian media,

http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1556590/russia-airs-conspiracy-theories-over-downed-malaysia-jet-mh17
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July 22, 2014 10:06am
thePeoplesFlag

“…They will fight until the last kid they have to hide behind is dead…”

They hid at the El-Wafa hospital.
They hid at the Al-Aqsa hospital.
They hid at the beach, where children played football.
They hid at the yard of 75-year-old Muhammad Hamad.
They hid among the residential quarters of Shujaya.
They hid in the neighbourhoods of Zaytoun and Toffah.
They hid in Rafah and Khan Younis.
They hid in the home of the Qassan family.
They hid in the home of the poet, Othman Hussein.
They hid in the village of Khuzaa.
They hid in the thousands of houses damaged or destroyed.
They hid in 84 schools and 23 medical facilities.
They hid in a cafe, where Gazans were watching the World Cup.
They hid in the ambulances trying to retrieve the injured.
They hid themselves in 24 corpses, buried under rubble.
They hid themselves in a young woman in pink household slippers, sprawled on the pavement, taken down while fleeing.
They hid themselves in two brothers, eight and four, lying in the intensive burn care unit in Al-Shifa.
They hid themselves in the little boy whose parts were carried away by his father in a plastic shopping bag.
They hid themselves in the “incomparable chaos of bodies” arriving at Gaza hospitals.
They hid themselves in an elderly woman, lying in a pool of blood on a stone floor.
Hamas, they tell us, is cowardly and cynical.
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July 22, 2014 10:16am
Andrei

There is absolutely no evidence the US sponsored or supported the protests unless you believe the Kremlin controlled RT and other news agencies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLcHkBv_Umw
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July 22, 2014 10:20am
lilman

So you are a fast think Judith?
That explains why your thoughts are so badly thought out.
Never let a chance go by.
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July 22, 2014 10:24am
dirty harry

http://www.1law4all.kiwi.nz/miscellaneous/vote_for_table.pdf

Who you voting for ?

Conservatives all day.
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July 22, 2014 10:25am
lilman

Lol, did you get it?
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July 22, 2014 10:26am
Andrei

You have to wonder how New Zealanders would react if senior Russian Politicians came here and addressed crowds of protesters encouraging them to overthrow our Government and replace it with a coalition of Mana and the Greens by not allowing National MPs to enter the debating chamber through threats of violence?
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July 22, 2014 10:27am
Andrei

The “black boxes” from NH17 are in the hands of the Malaysian Government – Yes this is good

And civilian Radar tracking from Rostov Air control shows a fighter jet climbing towards the doomed flight immediately before the disaster

Oh oh

No wonder Obama and his minions are getting so bellicose, they are about to be embarrassed unless they can make so much noise they can drown out the facts
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July 22, 2014 10:33am
mikenmild

You really think the Ukrainian government shot down the airliner, Andrei?
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July 22, 2014 10:41am
Manolo

On U.S. politics: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/07/28/biden-agenda
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July 22, 2014 10:46am
Andrei

I’m not going to speculate Mikenmild, except to say it has nothing to do with Russia

You see my friend there is more than one civil war going on in Ukraine, it is not just the simple narrative of the “legitimate”Government in Kiev against “pro Russian separatists” that you have been fed.
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July 22, 2014 10:48am
Nostalgia-NZ

We don’t know the facts yet. But the best possible interim situation appears to have been reached, the crash site opened to investigators, the bodies released to Dutch forensic services and the black boxes surrendered to Malaysian authorities – care for the deceased’s remains, diplomacy and due process have risen above the tragedy.
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July 22, 2014 10:49am
SPC

Andrei, how immediately … consistent with earlier reports that the Ukraine fighters separated from the plane about 3km before the plane went down?
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July 22, 2014 10:50am
Elaycee

I see Claudette Hauiti has quit.

If she’s unable to differentiate between legitimate expenses that are OK on her Parliamentary Card and personal spending, she shouldn’t be anywhere near the taxpayer purse.

She won’t be missed by this voter.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11297254
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July 22, 2014 10:50am
mikenmild

Andrei, how can you be so confident that it had nothing to do with Russia?
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July 22, 2014 10:51am
doggone7

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/small-business/10291699/Students-find-success-with-paleo-sweets

Fancy that eh, not a charter school, not a fancy private school, probably doesn’t have a zone where people pay $500,000 extra for living a few metres here or there.

Fancy that, didn’t make the headlines on the sites which are quick to point at any frailties in public schooling and super fast to point out any success in a charter school in somewhere like New Hampshire.
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July 22, 2014 10:56am
Andrei

Andrei, how can you be so confident that it had nothing to do with Russia?

There is a lot going on in the world at the moment, as you know Mikenmild – Gaza, Iraq, Libya to mention but three

Vladimir Putin himself was in the air, not far from the doomed plane when this occurred, about half an hour behind as they crossed Poland – he was coming back from a triumphant tour of South America.

So why would Russia escalate a major geopolitical crisis right on its borders at this time?
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July 22, 2014 11:01am
Slipster

Judith, re: poverty cycles:
“We should just continue to let the cycle repeat itself, and not make any attempt to break it?”
—
But this i exactly what you are doing – aiding and abetting in maintaining that cycle. Your do-goodie policies do nothing to break it, only to perpetuate it. Indeed, why would anyone waste their money to feed their children when they know you will do it anyway … with our money.
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July 22, 2014 11:02am
Dean Papa

A combination of delusion, paranoia, dishonesty, arrogance, narcissism, brutality … etc etc .. it seems to be a cultural thing with these crazy slavs.
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July 22, 2014 11:03am
Jack5

Good morning all:

The Guardian is usually too far Left for me, but it has online an interesting piece from its fellow lefty publication The Observer about why the finance gurus may have fucked up the West’s economies, and an interesting tack being taken by the rising BRIC countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China). It reckons there’s a flaw in Schumpeter’s creative destruction model.

This is a good quick read for thinking posters.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/20/public-banks-brics-countries-financial-markets/print
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July 22, 2014 11:05am
Slipster

@Andrei:
“So why would Russia escalate a major geopolitical crisis right on its borders at this time?”
—-
‘Cause it can?
‘Cause it’s been waiting for a long, long time for a good moment to re-conquest its Southern neighbour?
‘Cause its imperial ambitions know no bounds?

Well, apparently the Kremlin ‘strongman’ decided it’s time to make his move now, that’s why.
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July 22, 2014 11:06am
mikenmild

‘So why would Russia escalate a major geopolitical crisis right on its borders at this time?’
I don’t think Russia has intentionally sought this crisis. It has, however, risked just such a crisis by arming the separatists. Some reports are that Russia provided the advanced surface-to air missile systems and, possibly, the personnel to operate them. Doubtless Russia did not intend for those weapons to be used against a civilian airliner, but it seems to have happened.
As for ‘triumphant tour of South America’, did you read that in a Kremlin press release?
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July 22, 2014 11:06am
kowtow

A combination of delusion, paranoia, ignorance, arrogance, narcissism, brutality … etc etc .. it seems to be a cultural thing with these crazy Muslims.
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July 22, 2014 11:13am
Judith

Slipster (30 comments) says:
July 22nd, 2014 at 11:02 am

But this i exactly what you are doing – aiding and abetting in maintaining that cycle. Your do-goodie policies do nothing to break it, only to perpetuate it..

MY do good policies? Please outline exactly what MY do good policies are, and where you have sourced them from, because as yet, I’m not aware I have any, or have ever constructed any, let alone published them? I am extremely critical of the current and past policies that have provided nothing more than temporary fixes and locked people into a system of ‘neediness’. If you know otherwise, please feel free to inform us!
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July 22, 2014 11:14am
Andrei

As for ‘triumphant tour of South America’, did you read that in a Kremlin press release?

I’m not a closed minded ignorant peasant Mikenmild – I read lots of things like the economic times

Here is something else that probably slipped your notice but is almost certainly peripherally related
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July 22, 2014 11:16am
Slipster

Jack5, the thinking posters you refer to, should know the main fact about the Russian economy (which you, for some obscure reason, think is rising) – its ONLY mainstay is its gas(&oil) exports. Where to? Why, the West of course. Notice that every time there is a glut or slump in that market, its economy nosedives and badly so.

There is a very strong suspicion at this time that the whole Crimea/Ukraine adventure was undertaken as a kind of a small victorious war so loved by the failing dictators faced with intractable economic problems at home.

If THIS is the foundation of the BRIC world banks etc, they will need more than just good luck.
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July 22, 2014 11:16am
kowtow

Elaycee

Claudia Hauiti has quit?

Good thing you raised that.Otherwise no one would have noticed!As useful as tits on the proverbial bull.
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July 22, 2014 11:17am
Andrei

Slipster did you not hear about the 400 Billion trade deal that Russia signed with China about a month ago?

Duh
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July 22, 2014 11:18am
Slipster

@Judith:
Well, if you admit to having no policies on the matter or views on what they should be, I’ll have to qualify what I said as:
“What appear to be your policies or views on what they should be” – better now?

But seriously, apart from nitpicking, your views on the subject have been expressed here so consistently and so many times that your are simply being disingenuous trying to hide behind some weasel words.
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July 22, 2014 11:22am
Slipster

Andrei, and? My point still stands.
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July 22, 2014 11:23am
mikenmild

Andrei
Another perspective on that deal:
http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_juice/2014/05/china_russia_400_billion_natural_gas_deal_behind_the_numbers_some_pathology.html
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July 22, 2014 11:25am
Jack5

Slipster (11.16):

And China?

Whether the BRICs are rising or not, the question is why has Western economic thinking stagnated. The West is slipping.

What sparked my interest is why, in the last 15 or so years, the relative development of Israel and NZ technology industries. They were on a par at first, and we were swapping ideas. Now Israel is one of the top dozen or so in the world in technology, and we, well we’re ahead of Samoa and Tonga still.

Israel’s development has been fostered by high co-operation between the tech sector and the Israeli military, which is another form of State involvement in industry. It has been helped subsequently, of course by an extremely well targeted tech-immigrant policy.

One thing of interest to NZ in her statements is her point that Huawei, which is cleaning up in international telecommunications, got started with a boost of billions from the Chinese State.

I don’t go along with Professor Mariana Mazzucato fully, but she is worth listening to, and rebutting, or taking some of her ideas and adapting them for capitalism. If you think China is practising state capitalism, Mazzucato’s work may offer some hints we may benefit from thinking about. If you think China’s economy is not state capitalism, then Slipster, you may be right.

Mazzucato in a video talk (I don’t go along with all these lefties, but she is interesting)…

Whoops the link is gone but if you search for this on Google you should get it: Innovation: Do private returns Produce the Social Returns we Need?
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July 22, 2014 11:26am
Judith

@ Slipster (33 comments) says:
July 22nd, 2014 at 11:22 am

You’ve made 33 comments, and been here how long?, and you know I have ‘consistently’ expressed ‘so many’ views on the subject, and presumably ‘know’ what those views are, and that they support the current system of dealing with poverty??

My, aren’t you a clever one – albeit a very confused one if that is what you think!
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July 22, 2014 11:33am
cricko

Where is dime when we need him ?
His answer to Parker, question 6 would be a good one I bet.

http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/business/qoa/00HOH_OralQuestions/list-of-questions-for-oral-answer

The Cunliffe will be worth watching today too.
(Is that your best question David ?
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July 22, 2014 11:33am
doggone7

… A combination of delusion, paranoia, ignorance, arrogance, narcissism, brutality … etc etc .. it seems to be a cultural thing with these crazy …

Hell, had me going there for a minute! I thought it was going to be about that Whale Oil site!
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July 22, 2014 11:35am
Andrei

Mikemild the people in Russia and China are poorer than people in the West but their countries are not in debt, rather they are both owed money by the West.

The US Government alone is 17 trillion dollars in debt, much of it owed to China and a not insignificant amount owed to Russia.

The US Government is borrowing a billion dollars a day while the sale of adult diapers is an increasing market in that country while the sale of infant diapers is declining (saw that in the NYT the other day 🙂 )

If you can’t see the writing on the wall……..
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July 22, 2014 11:41am
Slipster

Jack5, 11:26

I picked just one country as an example only.
Regarding China – yes, for now it is a strong player although it’s worth noticing that in recent times it is beginning to slip too with one of their top party/govt reps just the other day going public with the statement that growth below some earlier “floor” figures would be acceptable. However, if you want to call that alliance “China et al” – you are welcome to it 🙂

Regarding IT situation and you comparisons with other countries: you are generally on the right track there but I would also add the infamous “Tall poppy syndrome” so dominant in NZ (accompanied by the “Simple Kiwi” variant), immigration policies which are not very friendly towards qualified tech people and there you have it.
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July 22, 2014 11:42am
Dean Papa

While I admire much of what Hinch has done, that rambling and inane video of him going on about Rolf Harris was too much for me to stay with through to the end. If you are going to take as gospel the verdict of a jury, then it seems only fair to me that you must also do so when that verdict is one of not guilty. Hence Hinch should show equal respect to the decision of the judge in the particular case of the sportsman he has written about in his latest blog.
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July 22, 2014 11:45am
Slipster

Judith, 11:33

One doesn’t have to run at one’s mouth like you do to know what’s what.
To the contrary – prolific writers like yourself are normally the confused ones, simply because they don’t have the time to stop to think.

As for me being confused? How so? I don’t see you supporting your claim so disregard it as just another personal insult from yet another incoherent Leftie.

Have a nice… something or other.
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July 22, 2014 11:49am
Jack5

The growth of NZ as a feasible modern economic entity owes heaps to State agricultural and horticultural research.

We were successful at building a mixed economy on that. Similarly with forestry, where the Forest Research Institute was central to the development of plantation forestry based on Pinus radiata. They needed free enterprise to build on this of course, with door-to-door salesman selling tiny stakes in Perpetual Forests.

Forest researchers were close to proving the feasibility of 40-year rotation kauri, which would have been brilliant for economy-throttled Northland, when the big private companies dismembered themselves.

My point is that with the milk bubble about to burst, we should be thinking, and thinking hard, about optimum economic trends for NZ. With our economy so small, the State has got to be part of kick-starting industries. Yes, picking winners is the problem, but China, and earlier Japan and Germany were highly successful at that.

Regardless, Massucato’s views are one way of getting the debate rolling.
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July 22, 2014 11:53am
Judith

@ Slipster (35 comments) says:
July 22nd, 2014 at 11:49 am

I challenge you to find one post of mine on the subject where I support the current system that deals with ‘poverty’ (a concept I don’t agree with) by paying welfare and giving assistance to the parents, on here. You are the one guilty of shooting your mouth off, because if you read my historical posts you’d know that, and even just those today on the subject you will see I am very critical of the system that locks people into welfare, that expects others to provide when they won’t provide for themselves. If you were by your own inference a rational thinker that took time to examine the subject, you would see my thoughts on this issue are very much against the status quo and the current welfare system, and the provision of paid early education for those in ‘poverty’ etc. You don’t see me supporting my claim? Try reading my comment at 8.56 a.m. then.

It’s fairly obvious that you are not a new poster, and that you are attempting to carry on some past issue you have with me, which doesn’t worry me in the slightest, but at least be honest about it – because on this particular subject, you are very wrong.
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July 22, 2014 11:59am
Albert_Ross

OK Judith, now that we’re clear what you don’t like and are very critical of – what /are/ your policy proposals for dealing with child poverty?
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July 22, 2014 12:15pm
Lucia Maria

Andrei,

And civilian Radar tracking from Rostov Air control shows a fighter jet climbing towards the doomed flight immediately before the disaster

You might want to check out the following from The Interpreter:

Russians Scramble To Edit Wikipedia So The Kremlin’s Claims Make Sense
16:24 (GMT)

As we reported earlier, the Kremlin now says that flight MH17 was “tailed” by a Ukrainian military Su-25 aircraft during much of its flight over Ukraine. As we pointed out, this claim may be physically impossible since Russia says that the Su-25 was consistently between 3 and 5 kilometers away from MH17, but the Su-25 can’t fly high enough to have this claim make any sense.

Well, today the Su-25 has been given some significant upgrades — at least on Wikipedia. Several IP addresses that track back to central Moscow appear to have edited the maximum altitude of the Su-25 from 7 kilometers to 10 kilometers to match the flight path of MH17.

One such IP address that made such a change appears to use the “ROSNIIROS” ISP (Russian Institute for Public Networks) and, according to one IP tracking service, is associated with an organization called “JSK IT. Information Technologies Co.”

Another address that made this change is also from Moscow and was tracked back to the “Closed joint-stock company Telecommunication company.”

We have not translated the full transcript of the Russian press conference yet, but according to an editor for the Russian Kremlin-operated propaganda network RT, the claim is that the Su-25 can briefly climb to 10,000 meters (though there’s no indication of this capability on the manufacturer’s website).
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July 22, 2014 12:17pm
Dean Papa

pathological liars, those filthy russkies
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July 22, 2014 12:24pm
Lucia Maria

EAD,

Despite all of the Western MSM telling us almost from the moment the plane went down that Putin is guilty despite no evidence as yet, there are a few things they will not report:

[blah, blah, blah]

No matter, Putin has people like you reporting all that for him. If the mainstream media is not reporting it, then it must be true?
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July 22, 2014 12:25pm
Judith

@ Albert_Ross (240 comments) says:
July 22nd, 2014 at 12:15 pm

We stop calling it poverty for starters, because that title is misleading and doesn’t address what the real issue is.

The real issue is deprivation. Some children in NZ are not getting what we have deemed as basic necessities (relative necessities) for various reasons, including parental inability to recognise the need, or mismanagement of resources.

Just quickly, and not completely – I would in a cross-party committee, establish what is our bottom line for ‘basic necessities’. For example, I do not consider that children need a television in their homes, however, the govt currently does and provides welfare to cover it. Therefore we need to examine that – and determine whether it is a ‘necessity’.

A necessity should be decided in my opinion, on whether it is needed to assist a child reach their full potential. (With the realisation that full potential for one, may be different to that of another – eg university education for a child that will never be able to make the grade.

Once we have established the ‘basic minimum’ then we look at how parents can provide that (note parents – because it is up to the parents to provide for their children, not the government).

I am not sure how it can or would be achieved, but the emphasis should be on teaching parents what they must do to provide their children with these things. We have to accept that because we have allowed the welfare trap to become what it is, there are entire families with two or more generations of bad parenting practices that simply do not know – or feel no responsibility.

Like it or not, we have to find a way to teach them to be responsible – because continuing to provide assistance is doing quite the opposite. Trouble is, making parents responsible will not win votes – it will be unpopular – it means if necessary, that some families would have to have their entire incomes ‘managed’ until they learn to do it themselves and so on. But the emphasis should always be on educating the community to do it for themselves – the giving a man a fishing line and teaching him how to fish, as opposed to giving him a meal – philosophy.
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July 22, 2014 12:29pm
marleybob

@dirty harry (414 comments) says:
July 22nd, 2014 at 10:25 am
http://www.1law4all.kiwi.nz/miscellaneous/vote_for_table.pdf,

I think you could be right DH, Mr keys has been a let down, He has taken the National I have voted for, for the past 50yrs and now made it left of centre.

http://www.averagekiwi.com/?p=2449
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July 22, 2014 12:36pm
Andrei

How curious RT is down, just as more details emerge that might make the powers that be uncomfortable
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July 22, 2014 12:43pm
SPC

Got straight onto this site no problem Andrei.

http://rt.com/
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July 22, 2014 12:49pm
Dean Papa

paranoia?
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July 22, 2014 12:53pm
Dean Papa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Aj3KZa1ZCM
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July 22, 2014 12:55pm
stephieboy

Andrei, the Voice of Russia and other Kremlin controlled news and media agencies down as well,??

and SPCA’s link .

LMAO.!
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July 22, 2014 1:19pm
Dean Papa

Big news in Russkiland

http://rt.com/news/174504-simpson-tattoos-world-record/
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July 22, 2014 1:27pm
mikenmild

‘He managed to pay for the tattoos by abstaining from booze for a year.’ LOL
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July 22, 2014 1:32pm

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