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July 21, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 21 July 2014

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UglyTruth

Paul Craig Roberts on MH17:

“There is the youtube video which purports to be a conversation between a Russian general and separatists who are discussing having mistakenly brought down a civilian airliner. According to reports, expert examination of the code in the video reveal that it was made the day before the airliner was hit.”

“Another problem with the video is that whereas we could say that separatists conceivably could confuse an airliner at 33,000 feet with a military attack plane, the Russian military would not. The only conclusion is that by involving the Russian military, the video doubly discredited itself.”

“The circumstantial evidence easiest for non-technical people to understand is the on cue news programs organized to put the blame on Russia prior to the knowledge of any facts.”

…

“As a former Wall Street Journal editor, anyone who handed me a piece of shit like Ratnesar published would have been fired. Look at the insinuations when there is no evidence to support them. Look at the lie that Washington’s coup is “Russia’s meddling in Ukraine.” What we are witnessing is the total corruption of Western journalism by Washington’s imperial agenda.”

http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2014/07/20/508811what-happened-to-the-malaysian-airliner-paul-craig-roberts/
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July 21, 2014 8:01am
kowtow

Will Minto et al protest this genocide?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2698181/Under-threat-Iraqs-Christians-flee-city-Mosul.html
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July 21, 2014 8:03am
SPC

Ugly, what a load of crap. The communication from separatists to the Russian military – who they report to routinely in no way suggests Russian military involvement in the shooting of the plane.

As for the time stamps on the video, a day variation is common on U Tube video, just one of the foibles of that system. Expert examination – yeah right.
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July 21, 2014 8:07am
Left Right and Centre

Today’s GD is brought to you be the following pet hates:

(1) Old men with whisper whistle speech impediments

(2) People who smack their lips before starting a sentence

Motivation arises from an achievable goal that is valued

– a KB commenter
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July 21, 2014 8:07am
Keeping Stock

Did David Cunliffe really not know the background of the convicted, name-suppressed sex offender? Has someone from his inner circle set him up for a huge embarrassment?

As blunders go, this one is significant…

http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2014/07/is-no-one-telling-david-anything.html
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July 21, 2014 8:08am
Yvette

Less serious

So if Kim Dotcom indeed has a smoking-gun, black-and-white, in-your-face evidence that Prime Minister John Key was NOT ignorant of Dotcom’s existence until a day prior the raid and Kim’s arrest, need John Key just plead guilty to knowledge by association of the lesser act which potty-mouthed Green MP Jan Logie accused Bill English of performing to produce this year’s Budget, and then be discharged without conviction and given name suppression so it is illegal for Dotcom, the media, and actually everyone in New Zealand to even discuss anything of Dotcom’s supposed accusation and evidence any further, éteint à tout jamais, forever extinguished smoking gun … um, whatever it was?
Problème résolu, n’est-ce pas
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July 21, 2014 8:08am
EAD

It is interesting to note that Liam Halligan, the chief Business writer for the Sunday Telegraph (the Daily Telegraph’s Sunday sister) yesterday in his column called that the US Dollar era as the Worlds Reserve Currency is coming to an end:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/liamhalligan/10978178/The-dollars-70-year-dominance-is-coming-to-an-end.html

What makes this story interesting is not that this is a startling revelation to anyone who bothers to look at the fundamentals of the USA economy which is bankrupt in all but name as a result of its Welfare/Warfare State. (it actually went bankrupt in 1971 when it defaulted on its dollar to gold convertibility).

What makes this interesting is to see stories like this now appearing in the World’s leading mainstream print media whereas previously it was the preserve of “bat-shit crazy”, “tin foil hat” “conspiracy theory” websites which our more colourful Kiwiblog residents like to dismiss sites such as Zerohedge as being.

When articles like this start appearing in the MSM, you know the end must be nigh for the Federal Reserve, fiat money system that has caused the most epic bubbles, biggest deficits and debt levels ever seen in the history of the world.

And when you read articles like this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/commodities/10753182/China-has-more-gold-than-official-figures-show.html

or this:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-15/brics-announce-100-billion-reserve-bypass-fed-developed-world-central-banks

it is pretty obvious that the BRIC Countries are bringing Gold back into the world monetary system after 43 years outside rather than accepting paper money with no intrinsic value in return for their valuable goods and resources.

So while Western politicians and the majority of its MSM keep their population focused on bread and circuses and keeping us divided against ourselves, the biggest economic event in world history continues to unfold in a slow but steady fashion. The consequences of missing this boat are enormous, and it’s going to be a rude awakening for anyone not paying attention.
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July 21, 2014 8:12am
SPC

The veneer of civilised behaviour is falling from the Israeli regime.

To shell a Gaza City suburb as an act of spite because a Hamas ambush killed 13 Israeli soldiers is one of the most cowardly acts in modern history.

The strongest condemnation for it should come from the international community.

While as strong a critic of Hamas as many, this is just appalling from the Israeli government.
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July 21, 2014 8:12am
SGA

Yvette at 8:08 am

Problème résolu, n’est-ce pas

Non, Yvette. Instead you are charged with public display of an out-of-control sentence 🙂
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July 21, 2014 8:15am
kowtow

The “international community ” should not tolerate terrorist enclaves dedicated to the overthrow of democracies, done in the name of a lunatic feudal dessert warlord.
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July 21, 2014 8:16am
SPC

kowtow, deliberate shelling of a Gaza suburb to kill civilians is a war crime.

Your tolerance for the murder of people for being Moslems testifies to the hateful bigotry within your religious education and should make your church ashamed.
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July 21, 2014 8:20am
Yvette

SGA, very sorry – here are some short sentences

Cunliffe, Queenstown
1] can anyone legally comment on this, since someone [anyone] may have seen the Labour Leader with this person

2] does Cunliffe not know because no one may legally tell him?

3] where has the actions of the judge concerned left Cunliffe in respect of the rape culture Tania Billingsley charges McCully and the Prime Minister with

4] What now is the status of the bottle of wine supposedly exchanged – gift or bribary

5] If Cunliffe didn’t know this why is the Prime Minister meant to know Dotcom before he became news?

6] What is the difference between his minders not alerting Cunliffe to this and the situation of the entire Labour caucus sitting behind Shearer as he held up two stinking fish in Parliament .
At least Shearer didn’t go skiing instead of doing his proper part in rearranging the deck chairs.
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July 21, 2014 8:22am
UglyTruth

Ugly, what a load of crap. The communication from separatists to the Russian military – who they report to routinely in no way suggests Russian military involvement in the shooting of the plane.

Let me get this straight. You are saying that there is no military involvement in general even though they report to the Russians routinely?

As for the time stamps on the video, a day variation is common on U Tube video, just one of the foibles of that system.

You don’t think it strange that a video blaming the Russians for the shoot-down was produced so quickly after a Ukranian anti-aircraft missile system was deployed near (or in) separatist territory?
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July 21, 2014 8:27am
hj

A certain right wing blog WITH TIES TO National has tried to discredit Tania Billingsley because her friend has links to Rape Crisis and has had her photo taken with me.

This blog was an extreme example of rape culture and was so incredibly offensive that it’s hard to know where to start, or imagine ever ending once started, so I will do my best not to go to the specifics that just make me too angry.

I’m happy to let a lot of attacks go but this hateful and defamatory attack on two women – Tania and her friend – needs challenging.

….wait for it!….

Shame on them for trying to silence a powerful young woman because she has support. Shame on anyone that would ignore the fire in Tania that enabled her speak out in the hope that she might be able to help us as a society confront what is a major problem.

So many of our community organisations have been silenced by gagging clauses in their contracts, or just by the knowledge that some organisations have lost funding for doing too much advocacy.

Many beneficiaries have been silenced by the members of this government using all their power to misrepresent them and vilify them.

Many people who have experience sexual violence are silenced by the rape myths in our society.

Many in our media have been silenced by the pressure for readership and ratings and efficiency that has compromised their ability to research and run stories that might not be easy to understand.

The role of community organisations is not to just provide services, it is to educate and advocate. I know I used the things I learnt working for refuge to support friends in need. That’s a really important part of the unseen benefit of our community organisations.

Our society needs more people willing to speak truth to power and I have nothing but respect for Tania and her friends and support people.

https://blog.greens.org.nz/2014/07/17/in-defence-of-strong-women-and-freedom-of-speech/
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July 21, 2014 8:28am
SPC

Ugly, they report to, are armed by, use ex military and likely current serving members of the Russian military, but there are no claims that units of the Russian military under its command are involved in east Ukraine.

The quick release of the video, is the sort of gotcha moment that any mililtary intelligence would do – if one of their briefs was

1 catch the separatists reporting to Russian military.
2 expose the separatists committing a war crime to the world media.

Achieving both in one go – would have been a let us brag moment. Sufficient to make known to the separatists and Moscow that their communications were not secure.
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July 21, 2014 8:36am
EAD

Interesting to see this video from the “Free Palestine” march in Auckland in the weekend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9r102ybyBQ

Whilst I don’t advocate for one side over the other in this ongoing conflict, it was most certainly an eye-opener into how fundamentally our Politicians open-door immigration policy has changed the country for the worst over the past 14 years.

Despite having New Zealand passports, I would hardly call 90% of them New Zealanders (equally if I moved to Saudi Arabia 5 years ago I would hardly be a Saudi Arabian). Our Politicians have introduced division and religious extremism into this country where previously there was none. Sure we have had our share of massive internal divisions before (notably the Springbok tour), but ultimately our commonality as New Zealanders trumped any sincerely held beliefs.

Those street protests make me realise we have now imported utterly hate filled aliens into our midst who cheer apartheid, cheer homophobia, cheer misogyny, honour killings and every other hideous atrocity carried out in the name of the Religion of Peace who then spew vile racism and anti-semitism against Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East.

Also, anyone duly note the ‘Socialist Worker’ placards for this joke of a march?
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July 21, 2014 8:38am
hj

” some organisations have lost funding for doing too much advocacy”
Plunket for supporting anti smacking law (when the meta analysis from Otago Multidisciplinary — ran the otherway (and it was seen as blaming us (“society”) for their behaviour.
Amnesty International for supporting an inherited right of people who have a Maori ancestor to the whole f’n foreshore and seabed (with it’s starfish and seasquirts etc, etc)
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July 21, 2014 8:40am
Simon

“journalism by Washington’s imperial agenda.”

Biggest argument it isnt a false flag is Obama & the west aint gonna move against Russia.

If the Russians shot down MH17 there will be no consequences.

No consequences ugly. Historcially a false flag is quickly followed up. There aint no follow up therefore not a false flag.

In about 2 weeks no one will be thinking about MH17 or the ukraine.
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July 21, 2014 8:42am
Andrei

SPC does it not occur to you that the eight million people who live in Eastern Ukraine might be appalled that the Government that they voted for was overthrown by violence with the open encouragement of American politicians and officials and its replacement, approved by those same American Government politicians and officials, is selling the land and resources upon which they live to foreign interests including the wealthy scions of American politicians?
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July 21, 2014 8:42am
SPC

EAD, accuse Arabs and Moslems of anti-Zionism but not anti-Semitism, and criticise what should be criticised. Mohammed himself was a Semite and the Arabic language is a Semitic one. Some anti-Semites just seamlessly move from a hate of Jews to one for one of Arabs and Moslems …
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July 21, 2014 8:43am
SPC

Andrei, the government was not overthrown by violence. A certain person fled to Russia in response to street protests and the failure of violence to suppress them.

The majority of Ukrainians wanted a change of government because their leader had betrayed them – under inducement by Russian bribes.
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July 21, 2014 8:46am
stephieboy

Ugly Truth, the video was actually made of an intercepted telephone message between a Rebel leader and a Russian commander and it’s perfectly feasible that the video transcription was done a day after the event, not forgetting the common time stamp variation with videos posted on You Tube.
But no doubt Paul Craig Roberts, you, Veterans Today , the Rebels and the Kremlin iwould welcome an Indeoendent fact finding commission that could include Russian, Ukrainian and Malayasian representation. ?
Yes.?

I
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July 21, 2014 8:46am
kowtow

Andrei

And it’s not just American politicians. EU bureaucratic elites are hell bent on creating a new undemocratic empire and they don’t give a shit about the broader consequences.
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July 21, 2014 8:49am
EAD

@ SPC,

I don’t voice an opinion on this because:
1) I don’t know enough (this conflict goes back to hundreds of years and is also very contemporary)
2) I don’t see a solution that would be agreeable to both sides especially when one side wants to “drive Jews into the sea”
3) Neither side is a pure as the driven snow
4) There is so much inflamed passion on both sides, a rational debate is generally not possible.

as for anti-semite vs. anti-zionism tags, I don’t really take too much notice of that.
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July 21, 2014 8:49am
SPC

stephie, the video was made the same day as the event and then uplifted onto U Tube (but the time stamp suggests it was made a day before it was uplifted – the Ukraine/US time zone thing).
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July 21, 2014 8:52am
Sofia

Many people who have experience sexual violence are silenced by the rape myths in our society. – Jan Logie
above, hj, 8:28am

What is a rape myth and is this one of them?
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July 21, 2014 8:53am
Andrei

The majority of Ukrainians wanted a change of government because their leader had betrayed them – under inducement by Russian bribes.

Ukrainians have legitimate beefs against their Government but this all started when the ELECTED President of Ukraine took a 15 Billion loan from Russia along with extra subsidies on gas (which means Russia was providing Ukraine’s gas at below cost) and rejected an IMF loan with conditions that would bring hardship to the ordinary and loss of control of Ukraines assets to American Oligarchs.

And my friend Ukrainians would have ‘had an opportunity to change their Government via elections which were less than a year away and had been moved forward when Viktor Yanukovych fled for his life.

But of course you know nothing about Russia, Ukraine or recent history and just regurgitate the talking points issued by the American State department and dutifully reported in our media
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July 21, 2014 9:02am
UglyTruth

Ugly, they report to, are armed by, use ex military and likely current serving members of the Russian military, but there are no claims that units of the Russian military under its command are involved in east Ukraine.

But that’s hardly relevant to the issue of military intelligence regarding the identification of the plane, is it?

The point that Paul Craig Roberts made was that misidentification (as indicated by the early youtube video) is improbable, due to the separatists involvement with the Russian military.

The quick release of the video, is the sort of gotcha moment that any mililtary intelligence would do – if one of their briefs was

1 catch the separatists reporting to Russian military.
2 expose the separatists committing a war crime to the world media.

It is also behaviour consistent with vilifying Russia and establishing a media narrative.

Sufficient to make known to the separatists and Moscow that their communications were not secure.

We’ve has admissions from Tymoshenko “nuke the Russians” and Nuland “f**k the EU” that it was them in the recordings. No such admission from the Russians that any of their communcations were tapped, though. In other words there is no reason to believe that the Ukranians have the necessary espionage skills to acquire the recording in the first place.
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July 21, 2014 9:02am
G152

At least Goneliffe’s holiday involved him going downhill faster than his poll figures
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July 21, 2014 9:05am
flipper

There does not seem to have been much comment on the TV3 poll released last evening, but that may be explained by the fact that it simply confirms other recent polls.

Interestingly, Pundit’s “Poll of Polls”, based on Nate Silver’s formula adapted for NZ, published this morning puts the average at:

Pundit Poll of Polls

21 Jul

Change, Seats

National 51.3 +0.9 66
Labour 26.9 -1.6 35
Greens 12.1 +0.6 15
NZ First 4.3 -0.1 0
Maori Party 1.1 +0.1 3
Internet MANA 1.7 +0.4 2
Act 0.4 -0.3 1
Conservatives 1.5 +0.1 0
United Future – – 1
The Polity / Pundit Poll of Polls is updated as new polls are released, incorporating the One News/Colmar Brunton, TV3/Reid, NZ Herald/Digipoll, Fairfax/Ipsos, and Roy Morgan polls.
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July 21, 2014 9:14am
Dean Papa

put this piece of ruski filth in the dock

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/10977792/Putin-is-a-pariah-he-must-now-be-treated-as-such.html
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July 21, 2014 9:18am
ShawnLH

“Paul Craig Roberts on MH17:”

A name Which is almost always followed by a complete lack of facts and a large dose of conspiracy.

And PCR does not disappoint. In the entire article he provided no evidence. No phone conversations. No photos. No film. No sources. Nothing. None of the kind of real evidence we have that shows that Russian backed militia did this. Nope, in place of all that supposedly superfluous, irrelevant evidence stuff, we get, Paul’s opinion.

Yup.

He claims the backing of “expert opinion” but gives none, not a single name or source, thus we can assume none exists, or that it’s not credible. He just says it, and we are supposed to take his word.

His next claim is equally bollocks. He says the Russians would not make a mistake, so could not have been involved, though note this does not get the separatists off the hook. But HOW does he know the Russians would never make a mistake? That is a massive, personal, biased assumption, not evidence. ALL armies make mistakes.

Meanwhile, in reality, the Russians and their puppets in the Ukraine are looking a bit shady.

“MH17 black boxes ‘under rebel watch'”

“Pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine say they are keeping what they believe to be the MH17 black boxes in the eastern city of Donetsk, but they say they will need experts to confirm the boxes are in fact the doomed plane’s flight recorders.

Ukrainian officials had feared the black boxes, which could offer an insight into the last moments of the flight, may be handed over to Russia or tampered with by the rebels who Kiev says are trying to destroy evidence of their – and Moscow’s – involvement in the downing of the plane.”

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/10290446/MH17-black-boxes-under-rebel-watch
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July 21, 2014 9:18am
stephieboy

Ugly Truth, you ( and we can include Andrei ),would welcome an Independent fact finding commission to investigate the circumstances surrounding the M17 disaster ?.
Such a commission would include Both Russian, Ukrainian and Malaysian representatives..?
This commission would also have unrestricted access to the FDRs as well. ? ( that BTW rightfully belong to Malaysian Airlines.)
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July 21, 2014 9:20am
MT_Tinman

Flipper 09:14

I see United Future has climbed to zero. Must be the standard of their candidates.

Sad to see 13.8% of those polled state their intention to vote for totally discredited communism.
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July 21, 2014 9:20am
UglyTruth

And PCR does not disappoint. In the entire article he provided no evidence.

Shawn Lee Herles, still lying about the evidence.

From the article:

One fact is that the separatists do not have the expensive Buk anti-aircraft missile system or the trained personnel to operate it.

The Ukrainians do have Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, and a Buk battery was operational in the region and deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner.
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July 21, 2014 9:23am
Dean Papa

uglytruth, get a life, you loser
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July 21, 2014 9:24am
Andrei

Stephieboy – that is exactly what is needed and what Putin has suggested has to be done, he wants it to be done by the UN Civil Aviation Organization.

You haven’t heard this because what he has said has been drowned out in all the posturing a screaming by Western leaders, who actually probably don’t want the peasants to know the real truth
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July 21, 2014 9:24am
ShawnLH

Ahh peasants.

None of those in Russia of course. 😉
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July 21, 2014 9:29am
Andrei

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTFDBMba2AI
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July 21, 2014 9:30am
stephieboy

Shawn LH, I believe Paul Craig Roberts and the Conspiracy community have been left with egg all over their faces overvthis one given the strong circumstantial evidence so far implicating the rebels.
This explains Roberts desecent into rhetoric and polemic, making typically sweeping assumptions and assertions, without any regard to the facts.
Since Roberts , UT , Andre see the Rebels as entirely innocent then they would have no difficulty in handling back the Black Boxes to Malaysian Airlines or to the suggested Indeoendent international commission.?
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July 21, 2014 9:31am
SPC

Ugly Truth, you have already been informed that a SA 11 system was in the separatist held area before the plane was shot down. You even acknowledged it.

And there was earlier boasting by separatists that they acquired a system from a Ukrainian army base.

Today you post as if you have no knowledge of any of this. Why?
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July 21, 2014 9:32am
ShawnLH

“Shawn Lee Herles, still lying about the evidence.”

Prove it.

“One fact is that the separatists do not have the expensive Buk anti-aircraft missile system or the trained personnel to operate it.”

Source?

“The Ukrainians do have Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, and a Buk battery was operational in the region and deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner.”

Source?

Nope. Nothing there to lie about. No evidence.

Only in your “reality” Ugly is mere assertion evidence. Only in your reality is sourcing the Atlantean Conspiracy web site evidence.

Where is your credible, sourced, evidence?
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July 21, 2014 9:32am
Andrei

You are a racist Shawn, you seem to think Slavs are untermensch – and that Russia is the Soviet Union.

You also seem oblivious to the fact that the USA has been responsible for more death and human misery and destruction in the past twenty years than the Soviet Union was in its entire existence.

Strange but true
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July 21, 2014 9:34am
ShawnLH

“You are a racist Shawn, you seem to think Slavs are untermensch”

Nope. I have nothing against Slavic people at all. I just don’t trust Putin or the Kremlin.

” – and that Russia is the Soviet Union.”

That’s Putin’s delusion, not mine.
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July 21, 2014 9:36am
stephieboy

Andrei, ah very good.Putin appears to be co operating at long last. I don’t think he has much alternative if he wishes to remain a crredible head of state.
We can therefore see the Bkack boxes been handed forthwith back to Malaysian Airlines and the Euro investigation Team unrestricted access to the crash sight etc.?
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July 21, 2014 9:37am
Scott

“You also seem oblivious to the fact that the USA has been responsible for more death and human misery and destruction in the past twenty years than the Soviet Union was in its entire existence.”

Andrei-is that you? have you lost the plot?
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July 21, 2014 9:38am
ShawnLH

“You also seem oblivious to the fact that the USA has been responsible for more death and human misery and destruction in the past twenty years than the Soviet Union was in its entire existence.”

Source?

And, seriously?

Just take a look at the toll under Stalin alone, then get back to me.
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July 21, 2014 9:38am
Dean Papa

you must not be counting the death and human misery inflicted by the Soviet Union on its ‘own’ people
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July 21, 2014 9:39am
flipper

As matters important go, is not Ko’s win in the US a few ago more important than endless, useless speculation?????
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July 21, 2014 9:39am
ShawnLH

Lot’s of attempts at distraction here to cover the total lack of evidence from the Kremlin’s useful idiots.
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July 21, 2014 9:40am
hmmokrightitis

Dear Mr Key,

No accommodations this time please. Over 50% of the electorate are telling you we like what you – National – are doing. We are also telling labour they suck. Come out strong, ask for electorate and party votes in all electorates, dont piss about in Epsom or with the CCCP.

Then, with a tail wind and a fine day, you will get your mandate. Strong policy, no screw ups, and nail SilentT when it comes to the debates.

And then once its won, think about going for term 4.
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July 21, 2014 9:40am
SPC

UglyTruth (3,888 comments) says:
July 19th, 2014 at 8:05 pm

“The reports identifying the presence of SA 11 weaponry in the separatist held area are so damn inconvenient to the post shooting claim they did not have the capability.”

Fair comment. At this stage my position is based more on the level of nefarium that has been directed against Russian interests in past months, and the Russian move away from US backed currency (as a possible motivation for blaming Russia for MH17).

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/07/another_malaysian_airlines_flight_goes_down_-_this_time_by_a_missile.html/comment-page-1#comment-1363995
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July 21, 2014 9:40am
Simon

“You also seem oblivious to the fact that the USA has been responsible for more death and human misery and destruction in the past twenty years than the Soviet Union was in its entire existence.”

On a thread about in part what has really happened. The irony meter just self destructed.
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July 21, 2014 9:41am
Dean Papa

The red army were mass rapists, same for the Serbs in Bosnia. Those crazy slavs, eh?
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July 21, 2014 9:42am
Simon

“You also seem oblivious to the fact that the USA has been responsible for more death and human misery and destruction in the past twenty years than the Soviet Union was in its entire existence.”

Yep ok. Stands up walks slowly backwards to the door.
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July 21, 2014 9:45am
UglyTruth

Today you post as if you have no knowledge of any of this. Why?

Because I trust PCR’s assessment of the facts over random sources.
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July 21, 2014 9:45am
Dean Papa

As matters important go, is not Ko’s win in the US …

yup, our “Lyds” seems to have captured the imagination of many a middle-aged Kiwi male sports fanatic, especially those who previously had no idea ladies golf was even a sport. Just as Lorde has captured the imagination of many a middle-aged Kiwi hipster, many who have even convinced themselves they actually like her music.
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July 21, 2014 9:47am
questions

So, school zoning, you are all vigorously opposed, what alternative do you propose for deciding who gets to go to a school when there is more applications than places?
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July 21, 2014 9:48am
ShawnLH

“Because I trust PCR’s assessment of the facts over random sources.”

So your lying. You have no evidence. You just “trust” PCR’s opinion of the evidence.

You can’t go around accusing other’s of lying about facts and evidence every time they respond to your posts when you provide nothing more than assertion and opinion, not actual facts and evidence.
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July 21, 2014 9:49am
Scott

On another topic but still involving the religion of peace-

“Christians have fled en masse from Mosul, Iraq’s second-largest city, abandoning communities that date back to the first centuries of Christianity.
Islamic extremists who now control the city gave Christians until midday Saturday to convert to Islam, pay a tax or face death.
According to MidEast Christian News, the IS rulers ordered hospitals to dismiss Christian doctors and female employees.
The report says extremists also marked the houses of Christians as “Property of the Islamic State”.

I think the lesson from this is that Christians are intolerant and if they were more tolerant then the Muslims would be nicer to them and not kill them or force them to pay a special tax or drive them out of the country they have lived in since biblical times. I think that is the lesson that every left thinking person will get out of this. Also it is because of the Crusades of the 12th century which again is more than a sufficient reason for what the peace loving Muslims are doing. And also it is because of America. There are other reasons so that is good explanation for me.

Ok off to the Palestinian march for peace now and a chance to shout “workers of the world unite” and “death to Israel” and other peaceful slogans.
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July 21, 2014 9:52am
UglyTruth

“The Ukrainians do have Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, and a Buk battery was operational in the region and deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner.”

Lot’s of attempts at distraction here to cover the total lack of evidence from the Kremlin’s useful idiots.

The evidence you lied about, you mean?

Do you deny that the Ukranians have Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, and a Buk battery was operational in the region and deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner?

It you don’t deny it, then why do you deny that it is evidence?

BTW, for you it is a rhetorical question since you are a liar, ShawnLH.
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July 21, 2014 9:52am
EAD

Let’s be truthful here, despite all finger pointing, there has been no evidence beyond circumstantial to implicate either the rebels or the Ukrainian govt.

If I’m to add a counterweight to the one sided narrative from the MSM, why don’t the Ukrainian side want to release any recordings of conversations between MH0017 and their air traffic control? You know, the ones which might show MH0017 clearly being sent off path, so that the Ukrainians can shoot them down and then quickly blame others. Why was MH0017 using a different path to that of the previous 10 days? Why not release the submitted flight plan of MH0017? And the conversations mentioned above?

Surely Ukrainian air traffic control could do that to clear the air because if they’ve got nothing to hide then they’ve got nothing to fear?

Cui bono?
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July 21, 2014 9:53am
UglyTruth

I think the lesson from this is that Christians are intolerant and if they were more tolerant then the Muslims would be nicer to them..

Sarcasm aside, I think the lesson is that the state should not get involved in religion.
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July 21, 2014 9:54am
ShawnLH

“Do you deny that the Ukranians have Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, and a Buk battery was operational in the region and deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner.”?”

Source?
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July 21, 2014 9:56am
Andrei

|Vladimir Putin is speaking – this so far

The tragic Malaysian MH17 flight crash must not be politicised and the international experts on the scene should be able to carry out their work in complete safety, Russian President Vladimir Putin said.

“There are already representatives of Donetsk and Lugansk working there, as well as representatives of the emergencies ministry of Ukraine and others. But this is not enough,” Putin said officially commenting on the tragic event on Sunday.

“This task force is not enough,” Putin emphasized. “We need more, we need a fully representative group of experts to be working at the site under the guidance of ICAO, the relevant international commission.”

“In the meantime, nobody should and has no right to use this tragedy to achieve their ‘narrowly selfish’ political goals,” Putin stated.

“We repeatedly called upon all conflicting sides to stop the bloodshed immediately and sit down at the negotiating table,” the President reminded. “I can say with confidence that if military operations were not resumed on June 28 in eastern Ukraine, this tragedy wouldn’t have happened.”
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July 21, 2014 9:57am
Simon

Poor Ugly all terrorist acts are false flags put together by various State operators, ie people who cant organize public health or eduction to save themselves, but can pull off delicate cunning plans that fool millions.

Tra la la la. Not related to Andrea are you?
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July 21, 2014 9:57am
SPC

Both Russia and Ukraine have SA 11 weaponry, but neither had any in the area from where the plane was shot down – it was occupied by separatists.
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July 21, 2014 9:59am
UglyTruth

EAD, evidence can take the form of a logical proposition or argument.

If we assume that that TW17 was brought down with a missile, then showing that only a single group had possession of such missiles in the relevant area implies that they were responsible.

This isn’t proof, only evidence.
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July 21, 2014 10:00am
SPC

EAD, at least 2 other planes flew the northern route over Ukraine that day. It was one of the two over Ukraine used by airlines.

Weather is one reason for using one rather than the other.
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July 21, 2014 10:03am
Tauhei Notts

SPC at 8.52 a.m.
I believe you are wrong.
The plane was shot down at 2.20 p.m. Greenwich Mean Time on Thursday 17th July 2014. At that time the only place in the world that was dated the 16th July would be Hawaii, possibly. It was early in the morning of the 17th July Pacific Time in the U.S.A.
Similarly, the only place in the world where it was 18th July was New Zealand and the eastern states of Australia. Okay, throw in the Aleutian Islands, possibly.
Time differences? Today, in my opinion is the 45th anniversary of Armstrong and Aldrin’s historic walk. It happened on MOONDAY 21st July 1969 New Zealand time. I do not know what the actual date was on the moon. Don’t get me started on America’s 9/12 problems in 2001.
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July 21, 2014 10:04am
Simon

Ugly have you personally verified that Putin video? Can we trust it. Can you speak Russian?

Afterall he could just be ordering Chinese take aways for all you know.
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July 21, 2014 10:06am
ShawnLH

“If we assume that that TW17 was brought down with a missile, then showing that only a single group had possession of such missiles in the relevant area implies that they were responsible.”

Except we know that is not true. The Russians do have such weapons, and the Russians are backing the separatists. and we have a phone conversation from a separatist militia leader admitting to shooting the aircraft down.

“a logical proposition or argument” is only evidence if it has evidence to back it up, which your’s does not, and it does not contradict the evidence we have, which your’s does.

So, still no evidence. Only mindless anti-Western and anti-US prejudice.
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July 21, 2014 10:06am
SPC

“In the meantime, nobody should and has no right to use this tragedy to achieve their ‘narrowly selfish’ political goals,” Putin stated.”

Delays in the inspectors having access to the evidence advantages the separatists. They took out bridges and attacked military transport planes to have the time to organise a fall back defence. They were under heavy pressure in Luhansk after losing part of the city and airport.
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July 21, 2014 10:07am
UglyTruth

Except we know that is not true. The Russians do have such weapons, and the Russians are backing the separatists.

You left out the relevant area, you fucking liar.
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July 21, 2014 10:11am
SPC

Tauhei

On the video link that first questioned the time of the Ukraine video this discussion took place.

ColdWarWarriors

Dahboo, we have to be careful with time stamps, different time zones can give different time stamps, remember what happend with the Damascus false flag with time stamps from the previous day before the attack took place turned out to be different time zones.

oposszum impresszum

Just to make sure that my comment won’t get lost, I post it here: you are kind of right, the reason is actually a YouTube bug. Here’s a short description how to check my statement:

1. First of all, you should find a video metadata viewer and a YouTube downloader. (See my comments on this later.)
2. Find any video on your computer, or record one.
3. Login to YouTube and upload the video.
4. Once it is uploaded, copy the link of it, for example, for this video, it is BUSTED! Ukraine Caught Trying to ‘Frame Russia’ for Shooting Down Malaysia Flight MH17!.
5. Now, download the newly uploaded video, and examine its metadata.

What you’ll find is that, in UTC time zone (Google it if you don’t know what is the current UTC time), it shows that the video was created nearly exactly one day before the actual upload time, independent from the actual creation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28MrASx-RiM
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July 21, 2014 10:13am
UglyTruth

Both Russia and Ukraine have SA 11 weaponry, but neither had any in the area from where the plane was shot down – it was occupied by separatists.

Videos and photographs appear to show a mobile anti-aircraft missile launcher in neighbouring towns of Torez and Snizhne

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/malaysia-airlines-mh17-videos-missile-launcher-torez-snizhne

Who was in control of the missile launcher?
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July 21, 2014 10:16am
Andrei

You know Shawn if you weren’t so blinded by bigotry you would know that the West has tried to take over Ukraine via color revolution and it has blown up in their faces creating a failed state in the heart of Europe.

Plan B has been to get Russia to invade and get caught in the tar baby of their creation for which Russia can then be blamed and Russia has failed to play along.

Its a mess and a humanitarian catastrophe. Thousands have died and there are maybe half a million refugees in Russia and the East of Ukraine lies in ruins

And Russia didn’t do it
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July 21, 2014 10:17am
EAD

Did anyone hear that scientists have found a cure for gullibility to propaganda?

The complicated procedure involves unplugging your television, cancelling all your newspaper and magazine subscriptions, and figuring things out for yourself.
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July 21, 2014 10:18am
stephieboy

Ugly Truth,

This below is the whats left of an earlier Voice of Russia report of an Ukrainian Anti air missile defence installation falling into Doneestk rebel hands.Very similar to the BUK

Voice of Russia removed the report .

Why.??

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_29/Donetsk-militia-takes-control-of-Ukrainian-anti-air-installa/
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July 21, 2014 10:20am
SPC

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was guided off its most recently used course as its pilots hoped to avoid thunderstorms brewing in the south of Ukraine, it has been claimed.

When it was shot down, the doomed jet was many kilometres north of the flightpaths from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur it had used on previous days.

Nico Voorbach, a pilot who flew the same journey earlier this northern summer for KLM, and who is president of the European Cockpit Association, said poor weather may have been the reason why flight MH17 found itself in the sights of a surface-to-air missile launcher.

Voorbach said: “I heard that they were diverting from some showers. I think there were thunderclouds.

You would ask air traffic control to divert left or right, and they would give you the permission.”

It also emerged yesterday that flight MH17 had initially filed a flight plan requesting to fly at 35,000ft (10,668m) above Ukrainian territory. On entering Ukrainian airspace, however, the plane’s pilots were instructed to fly at 33,000ft by the local air traffic control because of other traffic.

Malaysia’s transport minister, Datuk Seri Liow Tiong Lai, told a press conference MH17’s flight path was considered a safe route. “MH17 flew at an altitude that was set and deemed safe by local air traffic control, and it never strayed into restricted airspace. The flight and its operators followed the rules. But on the ground, the rules of war were broken.”

The UK Civil Aviation Authority recently urged UK-based airlines not to fly over a wide area near the Crimea, Black Sea and Sea of Azov, and several airlines have followed that advice. Others, however, had been continuing to use the route, one of the “aerial motorways” between northern Europe and south Asia.

Malaysia was one of more than a dozen airlines which flew the route on Thursday. MH17 was only a few kilometres from an Air India Boeing 787 and a Singapore Airlines 777 when it was shot down.
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July 21, 2014 10:24am
Lance

Andrei typed in

“You also seem oblivious to the fact that the USA has been responsible for more death and human misery and destruction in the past twenty years than the Soviet Union was in its entire existence.’

Ummmmmm….

So like you actually think the US has murdered more people than the USSR?

Soviet murders range from 15 million to 126 million depending on the source.
Your reality check bounced quite a while ago, nice of you to confirm it to us now.
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July 21, 2014 10:25am
Andrei

Lance mate, how many people do you think have died in Iraq alone since 1990, how many in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen

And Yugoslavia, Panama, Haiti, Libya the list goes on and on.

But your blinkers say that when someone dies at American hands or through American proxies it is for the greater good and these deaths become invisible to you
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July 21, 2014 10:40am
mikenmild

But you were contrasting that with deaths under Soviet rule, an incontestably larger total by a factor of probably hundreds.
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July 21, 2014 10:46am
Lucia Maria

This would be worth confirming. Andrei, given that you can read what I’m guessing is Russian, maybe you can check out the source.

A mass grave has been found in the city of Slavyansk, recently re-taken by Ukrainian military as pro-Russian separatists fled, Information Resistance reported, citing the TV station TSN.ua.

“In Slavyansk, I met with the group for the Interior Ministry’s criminal investigation department. They discovered a burial ground with civilians of Slavyansk who had been tortured to death. There were dozens of them. They were tortured, stabbed, and burned alive. Now there are witnesses to all of this,” said Yury Lutsenko, advisor to the president on TSN.

Source, picked up by The Daily Beast Live Updates
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July 21, 2014 10:50am
Judith

Scott (1,693 comments) says:
July 20th, 2014 at 8:54 pm
There is only opinion, good and evil do not objectively exist. Why do anything good for anyone? You do good for someone, great. But you have no objective reason for doing so.

Good and evil or ‘bad’ does objectively exist.

A physiological response allows us to determine what is ‘good’ or feels nice and what doesn’t. That does not come from anything devine, but from nature itself. When a mother smiles at her baby, the baby learns to smile back and associate that response with the release of endorphin’s, which make it ‘feel nice’ or good. The reverse happens with things that feel bad – tears, frowns etc. When we make someone else smile, we also smile, which releases the same endorphins, and so we feel physically ‘good’ response.

Transferring that to religion – a cave man (a non-religious being) may have had a particular stone – perhaps it had pretty colours or was smooth – having that item made him feel good – and when he lost it, or someone took it off him – it made him feel bad. Thus the rule not to steal begins – because the loss of something brings about the associated actual physical response.

Overtime all those particular things that made the physical difference were transferred into rules to live by etc. When religion became formalised, they were transferred over – not sleep with your neighbours wife – why? Because he feels bad both emotionally and physically when you do. Don’t kill someone – because when they are gone it makes people feel bad – and so on.

As religions progressed people started adding their own particular ‘good’ and ‘evil’ (bad) things to the rules.

But to say that ‘good’ and ‘evil’ only exist because of religion – is very wrong – religion perhaps only exists because we have the ability (like many other animals) to determine what makes us feel good and what makes us feel bad – and we determine that not by emotion alone – but by an actual factual response – a physiological response – therefore it is not purely subjective, but rather objective. IMO
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July 21, 2014 10:51am
ShawnLH

“You left out the relevant area, you fucking liar.”

Watch your tongue Ugly. If cannot play nicely with the adults, find something else to do.
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July 21, 2014 10:57am
ShawnLH

Andrei,

“You know Shawn if you weren’t so blinded by bigotry”

That would be you and Ugly.

“you would know that the West has tried to take over Ukraine via color revolution and it has blown up in their faces creating a failed state in the heart of Europe.”

So you claim, but your claim is debatable to say the least, and it conveniently whitewashes (something your good at) Putin’s own messing in the Ukraine.

“Plan B has been to get Russia to invade and get caught in the tar baby of their creation for which Russia can then be blamed and Russia has failed to play along.”

Evidence?

“Its a mess and a humanitarian catastrophe. Thousands have died and there are maybe half a million refugees in Russia and the East of Ukraine lies in ruins”

Thanks to Putin.

“Lance mate, how many people do you think have died in Iraq alone since 1990, how many in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen

And Yugoslavia, Panama, Haiti, Libya the list goes on and on.”

And yet, would not come remotely close to the millions upon millions slaughtered under Soviet Commie mis-rule.

Your claims about the US and your whitewashing of communist crimes (some “conservative” you are by the way, you sound like a raving Marxist apologist) are bollocks and you know it, which if why your avoiding posting the evidence to that one as well.

To paraphrase John Key. SHOW ME THE NUMBERS.

Your full of shite Andrei, and both you and Ugly have demonstrated how disconnected from reality you both are.
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July 21, 2014 11:06am
cricko

THY53 seems to be unconcerned about missiles (Turkish Airlines)
This is in real time.
http://www.flightradar24.com/#48.24,30.66/5?&_suid=140589760793207226051857743151
Put your cursor on the plane to see its code.
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July 21, 2014 11:10am
cricko

OK maybe it is concerned, it altered course 20degrees east since 11.10 am and its at 39,000ft probably its maximum possible altitude.
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July 21, 2014 11:20am
Dean Papa

Is that how you cured your constipation EAD, worked it out with a pencil?

But then how do you explain why you are still so full of sh!t?
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July 21, 2014 11:23am
Andrei

Lucia it is a propaganda site, faithfully reported by the Daily Beast in order to demonize people.

Most people don’t want to kill one another and those who architect wars to advance their interests only have a limited pool of psychos to call upon to do their will so they dehumanize and demonize those upon whom they wish to inflict violence.

Slavyansk lies in ruins, many of its citizens dead and many of its women and children living as refugees in Russia (some Crimea incidentally).

You and I live on opposite sides of the cultural faultline that runs through Western Ukraine but really we think pretty much the same way – that fault line has been ruptured by people with malice in their heart and we find ourselves apparently disagreeing.

You know what I’d do to resolve this, if I could?

Divide Ukraine into three and ask the people who lived in each part what they want to do, join Russia, join Poland, Slovakia or Hungry or live as an independent nation either as a federation or as separate entities and let them get on with their lives in peace
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July 21, 2014 11:40am
Lucia Maria

Andrei,

Lucia it is a propaganda site, faithfully reported by the Daily Beast in order to demonize people.

Right.

You know what I’d do to resolve this, if I could?

Divide Ukraine into three and ask the people who lived in each part what they want to do, join Russia, join Poland, Slovakia or Hungry or live as an independent nation either as a federation or as separate entities and let them get on with their lives in peace

Only problem with that idea is that Russia won’t allow those people to live in peace if they choose greater integration with the West.
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July 21, 2014 11:50am
SPC

Andrei, if those in East Ukraine had asked for and been given the rights that Crimea had (for a set term after which they could decide if their future was to retain this or secede and join Russia) would this have been a resolution? Or did the “extremists” who wanted to join Russia and pressure Ukraine to bow to Russian will so dominate the discourse as to prevent this?

I have also to see Russia take on a portion of Ukraine’s national debt despite including Crimea from Ukraine. Asset stripping and leaving Ukraine with the debt. If West Ukraine joined Poland who would be left with Ukraine’s debt?
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July 21, 2014 11:59am
Andrei

Only problem with that idea is that Russia won’t allow those people to live in peace if they choose greater integration with the West.

That’s not so Lucia, the only thing Russia wont accept is Ukraine becoming part of NATO and that is not unreasonable, given both the geography and history of Ukraine.

Russia itself wants greater integration with Europe, it is the USA that fears this happening as a Eurasian trading block is developing as we speak.

Putin would like a free trade zone that stretches from Beijing to Lisbon with each nation free to run its internal affairs as it sees fit – thats a mighty fine vision’.

Listen to what the man himself says not what the Western,American dominated media says he says.

Watch him speaking about this plane crash about an hour ago and you will see not a monster but an adult, being totally reasonable or so it seems to me – will we see this on our news tonight?

http://rt.com/news/174268-ukraine-mh17-crash-putin/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome
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July 21, 2014 12:07pm
mikenmild

‘the only thing Russia wont accept is Ukraine becoming part of NATO’
Surely that is entirely up to Ukraine and the NATO member nations. Or does Russia get to veto which international organisations her neighbours are allowed to join?
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July 21, 2014 12:11pm
SPC

Andrei, Russia opposed Ukraine joining the EU.
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July 21, 2014 12:13pm
Dean Papa

rt is pure propaganda, you dipstick. Putin is a sociopath. His feral goons have desecrated the MH crash site. These ruskies are ferals and peasants, murderers, looters and rapists. They are a paranoid, dishonest and brutal nation. Please feel free to go and live there.
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July 21, 2014 12:22pm
Ed Snack

Andre, if you are so keen on Ukraine being split and offered the chance of independence or joining Russia as an abstract conception, then surely you must support the same being offered to, say, the Chechens ?
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July 21, 2014 12:32pm
Andrei

Andrei, Russia opposed Ukraine joining the EU.

Ukraine was never going to join the EU in your lifetime or mine, it is a corrupt country ruled by Oligarchs and has been since its independence, its products do not meet EU regulations and standards, its systems of Governance do not either and will not in the short term.

They were offered a free trade deal and an IMF loan which on inspection were unfavourable to Ukraine and Putin came up with a counter offer.

The free trade deal was accepted under Putin’s offer but its implementation delayed because Ukraine already had a free trade arrangement with Russia ánd the risk for Russia was that the EU would use this deal to dump products on Ukraine to be onsold in Russia and Russia wanted this aspect of it worked out before implementing it’.

These are the facts not the spin
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July 21, 2014 12:36pm
SPC

Ed, the more relevant case would be Ossetia, North and South Ossetia should have the option of unity and separation from Russia.
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July 21, 2014 12:46pm

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