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July 20, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 20 July 2014

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General Debate

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dad4justice

“Also all Christians we need to speak out more.”

Indeed we do Scott. I find it rather fascinating that certain bloggers spend their whole lives trying to discredit the existence of a God.
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July 20, 2014 6:53pm
Scott

Agreed dad. They are obsessed with God. But unfortunately they are on the side of the devil. As if the devil needs more advocates.
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July 20, 2014 7:01pm
Manolo

UT’s mates on the offensive: http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8877501/islamists-mount-heaviest-libya-assault
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July 20, 2014 7:08pm
Griff

“A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
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July 20, 2014 7:10pm
Judith

@ dad4justice (7,705 comments) says:
July 20th, 2014 at 6:53 pm

I don’t think it is fair to criticise bloggers who spend time discrediting the existence of God. If its acceptable for Christians, or other religions to promote God’s existence, then surely those on the flip side, have just as much right to argue their alternative point of view?

From what I’ve seen the arguments start flying when god is mentioned. To be balanced, if God can be mentioned, it must also be acceptable for his existence to be denied. You can’t call one side obsessed without applying the same accusation to the other.
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July 20, 2014 7:10pm
big bruv

Reid

Given that I am so adamantly anti religious it would be hypocritical of me not to have read the bible. One cannot be an advocate for atheism unless one has read the argument of those I appose.

Having read it I am even more sure that it is all a pile of tosh. It is totally inconceivable to me that a man of your intelligence can believe anything that is written in the bible.

I do not deny you the right to follow your god, I do not deny you the right to believe in any god you like but I will not allow you to insist (and to be fair you are not one who seems to do this) that those of us who are more enlightened also follow your god, nor live by the rules that your god supposedly set down.
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July 20, 2014 7:11pm
Manolo

@Addled Griff: Have you been home lately?
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July 20, 2014 7:12pm
OneTrack

bb – “I find the whole idea of slavishly worshiping a non existent god to be something that is reserved for either the terminally stupid, or the eternally gullible.”

Which non-existent gods? Gaia? Taniwha?
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July 20, 2014 7:15pm
Scott

But big bruv we absolutely insist on God and will never stop praising his name and absolutely will work hard to achieve a God honouring society.
Because we know if God is for us who can be against us?
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July 20, 2014 7:17pm
big bruv

Scott.

Show me where I said that one week of a god indoctrination camp is the sole reason that I am an anti theist. That is not what I said and you are well aware of it.

I simply used that week of brain washing as just one of the reasons I will not swallow the cool aide your lot prescribe.

As for your statement “God is there”, well Scott I would ask only one thing of you. Show me the evidence. Prove to me that your assertion “God is there” is anything other than a statement of your faith. There is nothing wrong with having faith Scott, nothing at all, however it is not proof, never has been and never will be.
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July 20, 2014 7:18pm
big bruv

One track

“Which non-existent gods? Gaia? Taniwha?”

Take your pick. God, Jesus, Zeus, Allah, Buddha, any of them.
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July 20, 2014 7:21pm
cricko

At Labours blog, The Standard, ‘Open mike’ thread today I think the moderator must be having his dinner,

After a previous lifetime ban I had a post published @ 6.32pm.

“We better hope that Kim can come through for us on 9th September.
Were relying on you Kim. Please don’t let us down.
Your all we have now Kim.”

Maybe they didn’t get that it was a joke, maybe they actually do think that their only hope is Kims big reveal.
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July 20, 2014 7:21pm
Judith

Scott (1,681 comments) says:
July 20th, 2014 at 7:17 pm

Because we know if God is for us who can be against us?

That’s not working out to good though is it – it appears that more and more people are against Christianity as time proceeds.

I have no problem with you believing in whatever you want to – but I object strongly to you insisting that we must all live according to your values. From what I’ve seen you have no more right to demand that than other religions.

As yet you have offered no absolute proof that your God exists, more than any other God, therefore you have no greater right. You show no respect to other religions and their belief in their God – and yet their philosophies are supported by as much evidence as yours.
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July 20, 2014 7:22pm
big bruv

Scott

So if you had your way you would force us all to live a life as laid down in the bible?

Is that right?
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July 20, 2014 7:24pm
Griff

“I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Hitch-22: A Memoir
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July 20, 2014 7:24pm
big bruv

Griff

Very good, although I prefer Hitchens Razor….

“What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence”
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July 20, 2014 7:28pm
Judith

@ Griff

I don’t deny myself my delusions and illusions, they’re great company – and I don’t deny others theirs, for they probably need company too – but I deny their right to force their illusions and delusions on me and expect me to live within the rules of their mindset.
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July 20, 2014 7:30pm
Griff

“Indeed, organizing atheists has been compared to herding cats, because they tend to think independently and will not conform to authority. But a good first step would be to build up a critical mass of those willing to ‘come out,’ thereby encouraging others to do so. Even if they can’t be herded, cats in sufficient numbers can make a lot of noise and they cannot be ignored.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion
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July 20, 2014 7:30pm
Reid

I deny their right to force their illusions and delusions on me and expect me to live within the rules of their mindset.

So who does that to you Judith? Or is that another delusion you suffer under?
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July 20, 2014 7:37pm
Pete George

@KimNotcom:

Sorry Frau Laila & Herr Hone, when you said ‘roadtrip’ I thought you meant ve vould look at zee roads from my helicopter.
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July 20, 2014 7:39pm
Judith

RIP James Garner

Izo Yamura: Why do you drive racing cars, or do you not think about it?

Pete Aron (James Garner): Oh, Mr. Yamura, I don’t think there’s one of us who doesn’t ask himself at least once in the middle of a race, “What the hell am I doing here?” Of course, when it’s over, we conveniently forget that we asked ourselves that question. I think about it and a lot of reasons I don’t know. Maybe to do something that brings you so close to the possibility of death and to survive it is to feel life and living so much more intensely.
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July 20, 2014 7:40pm
Judith

Reid (15,893 comments) says:
July 20th, 2014 at 7:37 pm

Here is the answer to your question –

Scott (1,681 comments) says:
July 20th, 2014 at 7:17 pm
But big bruv we absolutely insist on God and will never stop praising his name and absolutely will work hard to achieve a God honouring society.
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July 20, 2014 7:42pm
Scott

Big bruv, our society has been organised according to Christian principles. Lately militant homosexual atheist activists have been working hard to destroy our christian civilisation and bring in what is degrading and evil. So yes I want Christian civilisation to be restored. While you work hard to bring in godlessness we will work hard to bring about a better nation that honours God.
Regarding your reason for your hatred of God the only reason in your past is one week of a christian camp. There appears to be no other reason that you have disclosed.
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July 20, 2014 7:46pm
big bruv

Scott

“Big bruv, our society has been organised according to Christian principles”

As the kids say, “epic fail”. Morality predates scripture, do you really think that prior to the arrival of Christian principles there was wholesale rape, pillage and murder?
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July 20, 2014 7:53pm
Reid

But big bruv we absolutely insist on God and will never stop praising his name and absolutely will work hard to achieve a God honouring society.

And how is that doing:

I deny their right to force their illusions and delusions on me and expect me to live within the rules of their mindset.

??

You clearly don’t understand what honouring God is, Judith. Before you express another opinion on it, perhaps you should familiarise yourself with that concept as practised by your local Christians. I thought that was what academics normally did, but perhaps I’m wrong, with you, on this subject.

If you do take my advice, I’m pretty confident you’ll find your local Christians abhor force of all kinds, to the contrary, they express love of all kinds, all over the place. But why don’t you find that out for yourself.

(BTW, I thought academics weren’t into stereotyping either, but you seem to have that happening in you as well, with regard to us. If we were negroes, or gay, would that help you overcome your prejudice?)
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July 20, 2014 7:53pm
nasska

Okay….hands up!

Who amongst you have been converted to Jesus after reading this thread? 🙂
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July 20, 2014 7:53pm
Judith

@ Scott (1,682 comments) says:
July 20th, 2014 at 7:46 pm

…bring in what is degrading and evil …

according to your definition of what is degrading and evil.

..our society has been organised according to Christian principles

might have been once, but for sometime it has been diverting from that… and lets not forget, before Christianity it was organised according to other principles, at one time Christians were regarded the same as you regard homosexuals today.
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July 20, 2014 7:54pm
Judith

@ nasska (10,581 comments) says:
July 20th, 2014 at 7:53 pm

I think I might have been, I’ve been uttering ‘Jesus Christ’ a lot when I read some of the comments.
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July 20, 2014 7:57pm
Griff

Always back to bum sex..

Can you not drag your filthy god addled brain out of its recurring arse fondling fantasy you perverted suppressed sodomite.
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July 20, 2014 7:58pm
Judith

@ Reid (15,894 comments) says:
July 20th, 2014 at 7:53 pm

Academia does not have rules on what its members think Reid. It covers a very large range of disciplines, including theology, so I think you might be getting a little confused.

Wanting Christians to work towards a “God honouring Society” sounds like a take over to me. What happens to those of us that refuse to honour something we don’t think exists – will we be hung on a cross for being ‘different’ to the rest of you? How are you going to achieve your ‘god honouring society’ if the majority do not want it?
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July 20, 2014 8:00pm
big bruv

Scott

I fear you are in for a life of disappointment. Our society is never going to go back to being one ruled by Christian values. Our nation is never going to be one that “honours God”. Within time we will rid ourselves of the need to refer to god at all.

As for my reasoning, I told you about one event, it did not scar me for life but it did reinforce my desire to fight against this ultimate bullshit. The reasons to keep fighting against it are many, certainly far too many to list here. However, the number one reason that I do keep up the battle is because to teach this crap to our kids is the epitome of evil.
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July 20, 2014 8:01pm
nasska

Settle down & pour another double Judith……the feeling will pass. 🙂
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July 20, 2014 8:04pm
twofish

So what if Cunliffe had lunch with someone who would seem glaringly inappropriate for the possible next Prime Minister of New Zealand [haha ha … no, carry on … I can do it] to lunch with [heehee ha …] and accept a gift of a bottle of wine from?

I mean, under name suppression, Cunliffe shouldn’t know, and no one else, because they shouldn’t know either, could legally tell him.
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July 20, 2014 8:09pm
Scott

Morality prelates Scripture. Sorry don’t believe that. Scripture starts with God “in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”.
But yes when you believe in God it makes a difference how you behave.
And when you believe in nothing except maybe your own goodness then that makes a difference. If there is no God then why be good, why be moral, why sacrifice your own desires to help others?
But hey our church this week has looked after old people in a rest home, raised over $1000 to pay for medical treatment for a kid in the Philippines and on Friday will provide a safe fun environment for 30 primary school kids. We do this because of Jesus living in us by his spirit.
Let me ask you this. What have you done for anyone lately?
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July 20, 2014 8:09pm
Reid

How are you going to achieve your ‘god honouring society’ if the majority do not want it?

We’re doing it right now Judith. Same as we’ve always been.

Feel threatened?

No?

Care to apologise for your hallucination?
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July 20, 2014 8:12pm
nasska

The Parable of the Navigator

Alex and Pat were in a restaurant having lunch. They agreed to meet later at a park which neither of them had previously visited.

Alex started to drive across town and found the way blocked by a torrent pouring from a broken water main. The park was on the east side of town and the water was flowing down Main street. By driving north, Alex reached a cross-street that was not blocked. Thus Alex reached the park safely.

Pat set the GPS navigator to provide directions to the park. The voice directed him to cross Main street. Pat drove into the flowing water and was drowned as he tried to leave his stalled car.

The moral: Logic and observation are safer than blind faith in an out-dated guide.
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July 20, 2014 8:13pm
nasska

….”But hey our church this week has looked after old people in a rest home, raised over $1000 to pay for medical treatment for a kid in the Philippines and on Friday will provide a safe fun environment for 30 primary school kids. We do this because of Jesus living in us by his spirit.
Let me ask you this. What have you done for anyone lately?”….

Must be pretty important to tally up the good deeds on a weekly basis Scott. Forget a few of them & you won’t have enough brownie points to get into Heaven. 🙂
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July 20, 2014 8:17pm
big bruv

Scott

“Scripture starts with God “in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”.

So Scott, prior to the “arrival” of Jesus how did the fine folk of Bethlehem or Jerusalem know about the word of God?

Care to answer that one for me?
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July 20, 2014 8:19pm
Judith

@ Reid

Actually I do feel threatened.

The beast of MMP may very well put a space cadet supported by his space bunnies in a coalition government with National. When a small minority can have such power, there is reason for concern. God knows what Key would have to agree to, just to have them on board.
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July 20, 2014 8:22pm
big bruv

Scott

While you are working out an answer to the first question I posed you might want to have a re think about this statement you made and any possible hasty retraction.

“But yes when you believe in God it makes a difference how you behave.”

It sure does, there have been thousands of atrocities that could only have been committed by people of faith.

As for your comment about people of faith raising fund for charity, are you really that stupid as to suggest that without faith one cannot donate to a worthy cause? Does that mean I should cancel my monthly contribution to the SPCA because I am not religious?
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July 20, 2014 8:25pm
Reid

Actually I do feel threatened.

Well that’s your personal problem Judith and none of us can help you with that. I suggest you talk to a sympathetic therapist whose prepared to listen to you. You may have to pay them quite a lot p.h. for this particular problem but trust me, it’ll be worth it.

But in terms of this being “evidence” that Christians “force” anything on anyone, if you really do think that, then with respect, you need to go and attend a Logic 101 lecture given by the Philosophy Dept, because something’s apparently broken inside, which renders you in urgent need of that kind of assistance.
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July 20, 2014 8:28pm
Griff

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

And you can add the filthy old sod raped and impregnated a teenager against her will.

How can these self deluded god whacking morons hold such incompatible beliefs in thier tiny minds at the same time ? Is it drugs or just a mental problem?
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July 20, 2014 8:29pm
cricko

Oh no !

Banned again for one more lifetime from “The Standard,” due to my 7.21 effort.
Gutted.

Still my post stayed up for over an hour before they twigged.

Hey Griff, God is good. You can be forgiven if you repent.
Yes mate, even you. There is always hope.
We believers turn the other cheek, we don’t hate like you do.
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July 20, 2014 8:29pm
big bruv

Scott

Sorry, I forgot about the question you posed of me. What have I done for anybody lately?

Well Scott, every month I donate $100 to the SPCA, when time allows we foster dogs until they can find a new home. In the past I used to rehabilitate many dogs, sometimes up to seven at a time (along with the three of our own we had at that time)

Just last week I gave a workmate of mine a not inconsiderable sum of money to assist with his granddaughters rehabilitation, this came from my own pocket. I did this because I could and because it was a good thing to do. In many ways Scott my good deeds are of far more value than yours, I did them out of compassion, you do them out of some warped idea that they will allow you access to heaven.
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July 20, 2014 8:32pm
Judith

@ Scott (1,683 comments) says:
July 20th, 2014 at 8:09 pm

And there we have it … the one thing that peeves me off more than anything else – the need to point out the good deeds you’ve done, with the presumption that no one else could possibly be so ‘good’.

The fact is there are many people that give their time, their money, their goods and even their lives for the sake of others, on a daily basis – but because they are not trying to buy a ticket to the rock festival in the sky, they have no need to skite about it, to tell others to receive praise or anything else. Because they don’t have any fear of being a sinner, they do not need to live in constant fear of displeasing any God or winning his/her favour – so they are able to go about their lives, doing good, and not wasting time trying to prove how bloody wonderful they are. The meek shall inherit the earth 🙂
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July 20, 2014 8:32pm
nasska

Concurrent or cumulative sentencing cricko? 🙂
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July 20, 2014 8:33pm
twofish

Hey, Griff, which city are you in? – I was just wondering about the likely perimeters of Ground Zero
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July 20, 2014 8:39pm
cricko

Question.

Why go out of your way and make an effort to scoff at and denigrate those who believe ?

What do you get out of that ?
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July 20, 2014 8:39pm
Scott

Judith, my point is not my goodness, which is very minimal, it is the goodness of the church that for a relatively small group of people does a lot of good in the community.
Regarding atheists doing good, sorry, most of you don’t and why should you? Atheists do no good works and organise no charities, why should they?
Now if big bruv does something good for someone well bully for him. However he is living above his philosophy and indeed in spite of it.
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July 20, 2014 8:41pm
Reid

And there we have it … the one thing that peeves me off more than anything else – the need to point out the good deeds you’ve done, with the presumption that no one else could possibly be so ‘good’.

Another delusion Judith. Christians don’t do good works because “they are ~~not~~ trying to buy a ticket to the rock festival in the sky, they have no need to skite about it, to tell others to receive praise or anything else.”

But of course if you’re operating under the delusion that’s why we do what we do, why you’ll see things that don’t exist.

Which is why I suggested the therapy and the logic course.

Hint: None of that will work for you if you persist with your arrogance that you think you know how we think, because you keep demonstrating you don’t, and you need to accept that. But I suspect you’re not about to do that, are you.
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July 20, 2014 8:42pm
cricko

Great point nasska.
I suspect that this time it’s cumulative.
Even those drongs will have woken up by now.
Still, I’ll give it another go some time, just to check.
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July 20, 2014 8:45pm
Fletch

Criticisms of religion flying thick and fast here, so not sure what to address.

One quote that springs to mind is by Will Durant –

There is no significant example in history, before our time, of a society successfully maintaining moral life without the aid of religion

As some have pointed out, the laws of our society are based on Judeo/Christian morality. If you pull the rug of religion out, those laws may last for a generation or so, but then they will disappear as well.

The Swiss theologian, Emil Brunner, put it like this:

The feeling for the personal and the human which is the fruit of faith may outlive for a time the death of the roots from which it has grown. But this cannot last very long. As a rule the decay of religion works out in the second generation as moral rigidity and in the third generation as the breakdown of all morality. Humanity without religion has never been a historical force capable of resistance.

Stephen Keillor, in Prisoners of Hope, says:

The initial act of eliminating our Creator God from our thinking is so immoral and unethical in itself as to render the following concern with ethical fine points quite absurd. It’s as if students were to murder the teacher and then sit down to have serious discussions about proper manners in the classroom.

I see someone quoted Nietzsche above. Even Nietzsche said –

When one gives up the Christian faith, one pulls the right to Christian morality out from under one’s feet. The morality is by no means self-evident. Christianity is a system, a whole view of things thought out together. By breaking one main concept out of it, the faith in God, one breaks the whole. It stands or falls with faith in God.
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July 20, 2014 8:45pm
big bruv

Scott

” Atheists do no good works and organise no charities”

That is utter bullshit Scott. I know you are failing miserably in our attempt to defend your bronze age superstition but there is still no need to revert to blatant lies.

“Now if big bruv does something good for someone well bully for him. However he is living above his philosophy and indeed in spite of it.”

No Shaun, my motives are pure, my philosophy is clear. If I have the means to assist somebody I will, I do it because it is the right thing to do not in some vain attempt to appease the celestial dictator.
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July 20, 2014 8:48pm
Scott

Big bruv, the fine folk of Jerusalem knew about God through the Jewish bible generally known to us as the Old Testament.
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July 20, 2014 8:48pm
Reid

Some people with boards were busy last night.

http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/crop-circle-2014-appears-South-West-field/story-21460927-detail/story.html

Seriously. You believe it was that, you’ll probably believe anything.
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July 20, 2014 8:51pm
Scott

Big bruv you are deluding yourself. Without God there are no transcendent values. There is only opinion, good and evil do not objectively exist. Why do anything good for anyone? You do good for someone, great. But you have no objective reason for doing so.
On the other hand perhaps there is a spark of goodness in you? Maybe you are not as far from God as you think?
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July 20, 2014 8:54pm
Judith

@Scott (1,684 comments) says:
July 20th, 2014 at 8:41 pm

You are very wrong there Scott. I know many people that do good, a great deal of ‘unconditional’ good. They don’t have the same need as yourself to remember or keep a track of it, because they are not trying to win favour with any God. The do it simply because they can, and because they have an innate desire to help others less fortunate than themselves.

These people don’t give on condition – they don’t expect those they give to, to believe in what they do, or to follow their philosophy. I’m not knocking you for giving, but I am knocking you for presuming that you are the only ones, and for the manner in which we are constantly bombarded with the ideology that it is only the religious that are charitable.

In my experience the Church is not the only ‘good’ organisation in society. It may have been historically, but that does not apply now. The lotteries commission gives a great deal to society, and before you argue that Lotto takes a great deal as well, do not forget that the Church also takes from society, both in donations and through tax exemptions etc.

Society has changed. You need to remember that for thousands of years society worked towards Christian domination – but finding that it didn’t fulfill all that it promised, it is now moving past it – and past the need to be based on or use unsubstantiated beliefs as a tool for social control.
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July 20, 2014 8:56pm
Griff

😆
Some of us dont have an invisible sky daddy making us do ” right ”
We manage to discern what is right by using our rational minds
We do what we believe to be right for truly altruistic reasons with absolutely no thought of reward or sense we answer to anything but our own self’s .

On holiday last week
shoveled four meters of gravel then compacted it to relay a drive and set another four tonnes of rock to make drains so my misses can enjoy her time out.
why
Because she helps the truly needy kids and I give her a calm and peaceful oasis to help her cope with the stress.

Then returned to my life at home
Helping my dad get past the last years of his life with dignity and compassion….. .

Not a single god evolved just my opinion on what is right so done and what is wrong so avoided. A sense of morals or obligation generated by rational examination . Based on a Gods retribution they are not morals they are compulsion driven fear.
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July 20, 2014 8:58pm
big bruv

Scott

Be that as it may, however it does not explain, nor justify your claim that without religion there would be a lawless society.

Scholar’s argue as to when the old testament (surely one of the most violent and evil books ever written) was written, best estimates suggest it was written no later than three hundred years before the eccentric preacher calling himself Jesus arrived.

Even if we allow three hundred years it only goes to prove my point and invalidates yours. If we were to take your silly assertion that morality is derived from scripture then man would not have survived, we would have killed each other well before the old testament was invented.

Morality is natural, children who are saved from a life of religious indoctrination prove that time and time again, those same children display the innate sense of right and wrong that we all have.
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July 20, 2014 9:03pm
nasska

I read an anecdote a while back about three people who volunteered in their community, who were conscientious parents, who turned down promotions because they would mean compromising their integrity & were model citizens .

One was a theist, who did what he did out of a fear of Hell.
One was an agnostic, who did what he did out of a hope for Heaven.
One was an atheist, who did what he did because it was the right thing to do.

Which person better exemplifies the proclaimed Christian ideal?
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July 20, 2014 9:09pm
Judith

Scott (1,686 comments) says:
July 20th, 2014 at 8:54 pm

Without God there are no transcendent values

many ancient societies that did not believe in the Christian God had transcendent values. You couldn’t find a more loving and peaceful religion (and less critical and spiteful) than that practiced by Buddhists. Their transcendent values supersede Christianity, and appear to be far healthier and peaceful for their believers than anything Christianity ever offered.

Anyway Scott, I’ve been up since 4 am, so are off to bed. Go peacefully, and gently – your biggest threat comes from within. If you truly believe you would know that the kingdom of heaven will one day be yours, so you have no need to feel angst against those that don’t see the same light you do.
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July 20, 2014 9:09pm
SGA

“How’s things going, Sol”
“Oh you know. Eli come over last night, killed my son, raped my wife, and stole my food. Sort of spoilt the evening a bit”
“You know what, Sol. Sometimes I wish we had some commandments against that sort of thing”
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July 20, 2014 9:11pm
big bruv

Scott

Thanks, you prove my point entirely.

“Without God there are no transcendent values. There is only opinion, good and evil do not objectively exist. Why do anything good for anyone? You do good for someone, great. But you have no objective reason for doing so.”

Those of us (nearly all atheists) who do good deeds are far more pure than religious folk. You do it so as to appease your celestial dictator, we do it out of the goodness of our own hearts. A point you happily concede.
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July 20, 2014 9:12pm
Steve (North Shore)

Anyone heard from Judith Tizard lately?
Prob on the pis, never mind
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July 20, 2014 9:12pm
Judith

@ Steve (North Shore) (4,485 comments) says:
July 20th, 2014 at 9:12 pm

LOL I’m glad you think I’m her, or she’s me, or sommit like that. The fact you think there are people in their hundreds that would vote for me lightens my heart. Thank you Steve – I love you too! muwhaaa 🙂 Sweet dreams!
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July 20, 2014 9:16pm
Fletch

Those of us (nearly all atheists) who do good deeds are far more pure than religious folk. You do it so as to appease your celestial dictator, we do it out of the goodness of our own hearts.

But bb what is good? We’ve been over this argument many, many times. The idea of “good” changes with society based on the whims of people. Abortion wasn’t always legal but now it is; it wasn’t always ‘moral’ but now many see it as so. So which is correct? Then or now? Either abortion is wrong or it isn’t. If you’re a subjective moralist you can just change your mind and morals to suit the times. Without an objective view of morality, what it comes down to is popular opinion, which is an ad populum fallacy.

Here’s a quote from ex-atheist.com

If there is no God, then no man is in a position to force his opinion of morality upon another. One man’s subjective view of morality is equal to another man’s equally subjective view of morality. Thus, there is no reason to believe in any morality just because another man tells you that it is good.

It would take an authority that was above having only a subjective view of morality to legislate that morality. God’s view of morality is objective, not subjective.
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July 20, 2014 9:23pm
Reid

Some of us dont have an invisible sky daddy making us do ” right ”

Neither do Christians, Griff. It’s called free will. Apparently, all humans have it.

We manage to discern what is right by using our rational minds

So do we. If it was irrational then it would hardly be the best selling book in history would it and it would hardly be the force it has been throughout civilisations and history, would it. If any movement is likely to be irrational, it’s the recent one called atheism which, like a spoiled irascible naive little child, purports to have authority sufficient to overthrow centuries upon centuries of accepted wisdom. And just like said child, atheism insists it’s correct, stamping its foot just like a petulant and naive child would. Doesn’t it. Tell me what’s irrational about that, Griff. Apart from the fact you don’t like me drawing that accurate observation about it. Because who cares what you like, it’s rationality we’re discussing, your preferences therefore don’t enter into it, do they.

We do what we believe to be right for truly altruistic reasons with absolutely no thought of reward or sense we answer to anything but our own self’s .

Anton LeVay based a lot of his church of Satan on Aleister Crowley’s teachings. Crowley’s dictum was “do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law” which translates into Leary’s “turn on, tune out,” Nike’s “just do it” and numerous other teachings all based on the philosophy that individual will is the supreme objective of life. And this of course is coming through society. You can see it with each passing generation. And to the Christian this is no surprise, for contrary to what many of you appear to believe, this is not God’s world, He has given Satan authority over it, and Satan, the Deceiver and the Slanderer, is very good at what he does, hence this movement of selfishness and the whole range of the seven deadly sins, which is permeating many hearts and minds, which has always been around, but which seems to have been quickening in recent decades, and grows stronger with each new generation.

All of which is predicted, precisely as planned. The sand is running out of the hourglass, those with wisdom will heed it, those without, will act surprised when the hammer falls.
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July 20, 2014 9:26pm
Scott

Big bruv, no the Old Testament is very ancient. The newest books of the Old Testament are dated at least 400BC and scriptures such as the Torah are very ancient indeed.
Regarding the concept of “good” there is no objective standard of what is good. You think gay marriage is good, I think it’s an abomination. How can we decide?
The answer is God calls it an abomination. That’s why it’s evil. It’s not my opinion that counts it’s God’s opinion.
At the moment your opinion of what is good and evil is the direct opposite of what God thinks is good and evil.
So I’ll take God’s opinion on what is good and what is evil rather than your own opinion, sorry.
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July 20, 2014 9:29pm
Fletch

Here’s C.S Lewis, with probably one of the greatest comments on Morality from his book, Mere Christianity. There’s real wisdom here –

Other people wrote to me saying, “Isn’t what you call the Moral Law just a social convention, something that is put into us by education?” I think there is a misunderstanding here. The people who ask that question are usually taking it for granted that if we have learned a thing from parents and teachers, then that thing must be merely a human invention. But, of course, that is not so. We all learned the multiplication table at school. A child who grew up alone on a desert island would not know it. But surely it does not follow that the multiplication table is simply a human convention, something human beings have made up for themselves and might have made different if they had liked?

I fully agree that we learn the Rule of Decent Behaviour from parents and teachers, and friends and books, as we learn everything else. But some of the things we learn are mere conventions which might have been different—we learn to keep to the left of the road, but it might just as well have been the rule to keep to the right—and others of them, like mathematics, are real truths. The question is to which class the Law of Human Nature belongs.

There are two reasons for saying it belongs to the same class as mathematics. The first is, as I said in the first chapter, that though there are differences between the moral ideas of one time or country and those of another, the differences are not really very great—not nearly so great as most people imagine—and you can recognise the same law running through them all: whereas mere conventions, like the rule of the road or the kind of clothes people wear, may differ to any extent. The other reason is this.

When you think about these differences between the morality of one people and another, do you think that the morality of one people is ever better or worse than that of another? Have any of the changes been improvements? If not, then of course there could never be any moral progress. Progress means not just changing, but changing for the better. If no set of moral ideas were truer or better than any other, there would be no sense in preferring civilised morality to savage morality, or Christian morality to Nazi morality. In fact, of course, we all do believe that some moralities are better than others. We do believe that some of the people who tried to change the moral ideas of their own age were what we would call Reformers or Pioneers—people who understood morality better than their neighbours did. Very well then.

The moment you say that one set of moral ideas can be better than another, you are, in fact, measuring them both by a standard, saying that one of them conforms to that standard more nearly than the other. But the standard that measures two things is something different from either. You are, in fact, comparing them both with some Real Morality, admitting that there is such a thing as a real Right, independent of what people think, and that some people’s ideas get nearer to that real Right than others. Or put it this way. If your moral ideas can be truer, and those of the Nazis less true, there must be something—some Real Morality—for them to be true about.

The reason why your idea of New York can be truer or less true than mine is that New York is a real place, existing quite apart from what either of us thinks. If when each of us said “New York” each meant merely “The town I am imagining in my own head,” how could one of us have truer ideas than the other? There would be no question of truth or falsehood at all. In the same way, if the Rule of Decent Behaviour meant simply “whatever each nation happens to approve,” there would be no sense in saying that any one nation had ever been more correct in its approval than any other; no sense in saying that the world could ever grow morally better or morally worse.

I conclude then, that though the differences between people’s ideas of Decent Behaviour often make you suspect that there is no real natural Law of Behaviour at all, yet the things we are bound to think about these differences really prove just the opposite.
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July 20, 2014 9:29pm
Maggy Wassilieff

@ Judith 9:09pm
“You couldn’t find a more loving and peaceful religion (and less critical and spiteful) than that practiced by Buddhists”

A brief review of the history of Japan, Korea, Thailand, Myanmar/Burma and Sri Lanka might cause you to revise your thinking.
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July 20, 2014 9:31pm
Scott

Reidy, very well put sir 🙂
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July 20, 2014 9:32pm
Scott

Anyway must go now. All you atheists need to go to church next Sunday and actually spend time in an actual church finding out about actual God. You’ll learn something and you’ll feel much better, it certainly a better thing to do than hating on God all day long.
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July 20, 2014 9:36pm
big bruv

Scott

“The answer is God calls it an abomination. That’s why it’s evil. It’s not my opinion that counts it’s God’s opinion.
At the moment your opinion of what is good and evil is the direct opposite of what God thinks is good and evil.
So I’ll take God’s opinion on what is good and what is evil rather than your own opinion, sorry.”

There is one large difference between my opinion and the one that you follow.

I am real, your god is not.
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July 20, 2014 9:36pm
big bruv

Scott

How can we hate something that does not exist?
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July 20, 2014 9:37pm
Scott Chris

How about some crank medicine bashing to add to the list:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
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July 20, 2014 9:45pm
cha

You couldn’t find a more loving and peaceful religion (and less critical and spiteful) than that practiced by Buddhists

Ya think..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1enFQ7WEU0
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July 20, 2014 10:17pm
Rowan

RichardX @ 7.12

“Someone who denies evolution cannot be trusted to evaluate evidence
Do you have any evidence that evolution is not correct?
Do you have any evidence that your god exists?”

Still waiting for that proof of evolution Richard and that proof that your ancestors were monkeys.
The earth is evidence that it was created, it did not spontaneously occur as you retards seem to believe, plenty of evidence but as you already “know” that evolution and science explains everything then I won’t waste my time with a simpleton like yourself (or bigot blouse)

I suggest you and blouse both get a life as you both spend far to much time on here preaching your hatred and ignorance of religion.
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July 20, 2014 10:39pm
chiz

Still waiting for that proof of evolution Richard and that proof that your ancestors were monkeys.

Feel free to learn some genetics sometime.

The earth is evidence that it was created, it did not spontaneously occur as you retards seem to believe

The only people who believe that our planet spontaneously occurred are the creationists. You appear to be arguing against a straw-man.
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July 20, 2014 10:51pm
Fletch

The Kalam Cosmological Argument – or, one of the arguments for the existence of God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CulBuMCLg0
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July 20, 2014 11:26pm
slijmbal

@Fletch

this is a posh version of 1st cause – even Aquinas agreed this is no real proof as it was one of his proofs

As I was taught at Catholic school it falls at the fence of all ontological arguments requiring an impossible to prove assertion/assumption to prove their point – they ‘beg the question’

nice try
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July 20, 2014 11:45pm

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