General Debate 1 July 2014

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Ashley Schaeffer

Thanks DG. Then I think Key should be the one to do it. Show some real balls. Would be a vote winner.
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July 1, 2014 12:20pm
mikenmild

Andy
‘Palestinian’ is the accepted term for the Muslim and Christian Arab inhabitants of the old British mandate are of Palestine.
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July 1, 2014 12:21pm
mikenmild

‘They were never in Israel in the first place. Or if they were’
Make up your mind.
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July 1, 2014 12:22pm
Dom Knots

what they gave wasn’t theirs to give fletch. and they havent gone anywhere. they still control the airspace etc. it really would be so much more helpful if israel could just comply with international law and remove itself from the occupied territories while we discuss it all from a safe distance, chaps.
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July 1, 2014 12:25pm
wikiriwhis business

Hubby’s raise made us $150/wk poorer

I am a married mum of two children aged 5 and 4.

My 5-year-old is at school and in a before and after school care programme and my 4-year-old is in full time in day care.

Neither my husband nor I smoke or drink, we eat relatively healthy and we don’t buy a lot of extras. We own a house and have the normal bills, but without both of us working, we would not be able to survive. This is the case for so many families these days.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/assignments/working-for-your-family/9776052/Hubbys-raise-made-us-150-wk-poorer

It’s these stories you Kiwi Bloggers never bring up that tells me all your whinging is so much crap.
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July 1, 2014 12:26pm
Fletch

Dom Knots, there are no “occupied territories”. Israel has been in the same place for thousands of years. In contrast, there is no such thing as a Palestinian language, culture, or people. It is a fiction.

Even a Muslim scholar in Egypt says that Israel belongs to the Jews until the day of Judgement.

[…]the Koran [says] Allah assigned Israel to the Jews until the Day of Judgement (Sura 5 Verse 21), and that Jews are the inheritors of Israel (Sura 26 Verse 59).

“I say to those who distort…the Koran: from where did you bring the name Palestine, you liars, you accursed, when Allah has already named it ‘The Holy Land’ and bequeathed it to the Children of Israel until the Day of Judgment,” argued Adwan. “There is no such thing as ‘Palestine’ in the Koran.”

In March 1977, Zahir Muhsein, an executive member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), said in an interview to the Dutch newspaper Trouw:

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.
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July 1, 2014 12:42pm
Judith

@ wikiriwhis business (3,704 comments) says:
July 1st, 2014 at 12:26 pm

It’s these stories you Kiwi Bloggers never bring up that tells me all your whinging is so much crap.

Please don’t share stories of real situations, too much reality is bad for this lot. They prefer illusions. They are obedient compliant non-thinkers. Be nice to them 🙂
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July 1, 2014 12:45pm
Other_Andy

mikenmild (10,304 comments) says:

‘Palestinian’ is the accepted term for the Muslim and Christian Arab inhabitants of the old British mandate are of Palestine.

No it isn’t, you are making things up.
The British used the term Palestinians, but applied the term only to the Jewish inhabitants of the region.

And of course you know also that Zahir Muhsein, of the Palestinian National Council, told the Dutch newspaper Trouw as far back as 1977, “The Palestinian people does not exist. … Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people…to oppose Zionism.”
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July 1, 2014 12:58pm
lilman

Mallard, give him credit for his latest discovery.

Not the Moa but he has shown us the Dodo is still around.
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July 1, 2014 1:00pm
Paulus

In the Rolf Harris case I hear from UK that the magazines are fighting with very big pounds/dollars for the complainents stories, and others not involved are hawking their stories too.

Pity News of the World no longer exists as they would have recordings.
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July 1, 2014 1:03pm
mikenmild

The whole ‘there are no such people as Palestinians’ thing is just made up by people who want to legitimise the Israeli occupation of the whole area. Simple as that.
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July 1, 2014 1:03pm
UrbanNeocolonialist

Quick google search now reveals diplomats nationality, being reported in their home press. Nationality just as suspected. Don’t expect the corrupt misogynists of this country to punish the guy – diplomatic posts are generally give to those with a lot of pull.
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July 1, 2014 1:09pm
kowtow

The occupation is by Arab Muslims.The area was “Arabized” and then went into terminal decline lasting hundreds of years. It was the Jewish returnees who made the place a modern democracy.

Too bad that can’t be said for any Muslim Arab state.
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July 1, 2014 1:11pm
Other_Andy

mikenmild says:

“The whole ‘there are no such people as Palestinians’ thing is just made up by people……”

Hey, you are the one who makes things up!
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July 1, 2014 1:13pm
Fletch

Actually, if you want to talk about Palestine, then (historically) you should be looking at Jordan. Many Jordanian leaders have said so in the past.

Here is Melanie Phillips on the subject –

Anyone familiar with the history knows it is correct [that ‘Palestine’ is Jordan]. Immediately after World War One, Palestine consisted of what is now Jordan, Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. The great powers dividing up the region decided that Britain should be given a mandate to administer Palestine and restore within it the historic Jewish national home. Within a couple of years, however, Winston Churchill, for reasons of realpolitik, gave away three quarters of Palestine to the Hashemite dynasty to found (Trans)Jordan (leaving all the rest to be settled by the Jews; but that’s another story).

So Jordan is indeed Palestine. As Camie Davis points out, the Arabs themselves repeatedly said so:

Jordanians, for decades, were avid proponents of the ‘Jordan is Palestine’ position. They used that position as justification for the annexation of the West Bank, arguing that Palestine was one single, indivisible unit, and that Jordan was the legitimate governing body of Palestine…

‘We are the government of Palestine, the army of Palestine and the refugees of Palestine.’ Prime Minister of Jordan, Hazza’ al-Majali, 23 August 1959

‘Palestine and Transjordan are one.’ King Abdullah, Arab League meeting in Cairo, 12 April 1948

‘Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is one people and one land, with one history and one and the same fate.’ Prince Hassan, brother of King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2 February 1970

‘Jordan is not just another Arab state with regard to Palestine, but rather, Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan in terms of territory, national identity, sufferings, hopes and aspirations.’ Jordanian Minister of Agriculture, 24 September 1980

‘The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.’ King Hussein 1981

Indeed, until 1970 the Palestine Liberation Organisation conducted terrorist operations against Jordan on the grounds that it was Palestine and the Hashemite minority was ruling the Palestinian majority. It was only after Jordan killed thousands of Palestinians in ‘Black September’ (and who in the west ever cared about that??) that Israel suddenly became the sole historic homeland’ of the Palestinians and Jordan was airbrushed out of the picture — and the fabrication of ‘Palestinianism’ became the accepted truth.
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July 1, 2014 1:20pm
mikenmild

So you would like the West Bank to be part of Jordan?
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July 1, 2014 1:27pm
Elaycee

Israel will never be beaten, Milkmilo. In our lifetime, a few have tried (Egypt, Lebanon, Syria etc) and they were all spanked.

Unless the current terrorist campaign is stopped by Hamas, you can be sure Israel will end it – at a time and place of Israel’s choosing. And when it happens, sooks such as yourself will bleat and whinge because Israel lanced the boil once and for all.

Whilst most of us will applaud from afar.

Simple as that.
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July 1, 2014 1:30pm
Ryan Sproull

The whole ‘there are no such people as Palestinians’ thing is just made up by people who want to legitimise the Israeli occupation of the whole area. Simple as that.

Yep. Easiest way to ignore people’s suffering is to define them out of existence.

Gaza is being bombed right now, as I write this. Collective punishment for the murder of three Israeli teens, it seems, though ostensibly collective punishment for some rockets that started a fire in Sderot.

One 16-year-old Palestinian kid dead so far, at least, killed in bombing.
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July 1, 2014 1:30pm
TimG_Oz

Ah Ryan. Welcome Mr. Apologist for Terrorists.

There are Rockets coming out of Gaza. That is OK with you. Fuck off.
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July 1, 2014 1:33pm
Ryan Sproull

Ah Ryan. Welcome Mr. Apologist for Terrorists.

There are Rockets coming out of Gaza. That is OK with you. Fuck off.

That’s not okay with me, Tim. Grow up.
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July 1, 2014 1:35pm
Ryan Sproull

Apologies, Tim. That was snappy of me.

The rockets coming out of Gaza are not okay with me. But they do not justify the collective punishment being inflicted on the much broader population of Palestinians right now. That’s all I’m saying.
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July 1, 2014 1:39pm
kowtow

No targets in Gaza are being hit in retaliation for yet more rocket attacks on Israel. This round predates the discovery of the 3 murdered youngsters.
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July 1, 2014 1:40pm
Other_Andy

mikenmild says:

“So you would like the West Bank to be part of Jordan?”

More made-up words.
It is Judea and Samaria.
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July 1, 2014 1:40pm
mikenmild

So you are all for self-determination by Judeans and Samaritans?
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July 1, 2014 1:44pm
TimG_Oz

OK Ryan, so what’s your solution? How much restraint has been shown by Israel? More than every other government in the world. What is the collective crime of Israeli people that they deserve Rockets fired at civilian targets?

How much effort does Israel take to target the threats and not Innocent people? A Lot, and you know it.

It’s so easy for you to bang on and complain, but you are ignoring the root cause, which is Hamas. What pressure are you putting on Hamas to stop Terrorist activity? None.
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July 1, 2014 1:44pm
mikenmild

‘you are ignoring the root cause, which is Hamas.’
What caused the rise of Hamas?
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July 1, 2014 1:55pm
FeralScrote

A news site of the unnamed diplomat and country is reporting that there will be a news conference and a senior official is indicating said diplomat will be returned to NZ if they can be assured that he will get a fair trial and his life will not be in danger.
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July 1, 2014 1:55pm
TimG_Oz

“What caused the rise of Hamas?”

Milky, I guess you want to blame Israel for the worldwide rise of Islamic Fundamentalism, who brainwash children, and kill non devout Muslims. Who Arafat himself was so afraid that he preferred to side with Israel.

You’re not very good with Logic, are you. Nor very understanding of history or the world works. 10,000+ comments of crapola, what a waste.
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July 1, 2014 2:02pm
Ryan Sproull

OK Ryan, so what’s your solution? How much restraint has been shown by Israel? More than every other government in the world.

How much effort does Israel take to target the threats and not Innocent people? A Lot, and you know it.

It’s so easy for you to bang on and complain, but you are ignoring the root cause, which is Hamas. What pressure are you putting on Hamas to stop Terrorist activity? None.

I don’t think that the root cause is Hamas, for a start. And when I see people cheering on terrorism committed by Hamas, I call them on it. But generally I don’t see that – generally I see people cheering on terrorism committed by Israel. So I spend more time calling that out.

You talk about Israel showing restraint in the face of Hamas provocation. Do you think that Hamas should show less or more restraint in the face of Israeli provocation?

For example, if Israeli settlers bulldoze a Palestinian farm, how violent should Hamas’s reaction be towards Israel or those settlers?

Or like when, six weeks ago, two Palestinian teenagers were shot dead by IDF soldiers, and surveillance was leaked showing that they were just walking peacefully down the street. If that happened, how much restraint should be shown?

And if someone said, “Hamas shouldn’t fire rockets at Israeli towns in retaliation for Palestinian teenagers being shot dead by IDF soldiers,” would you be telling that person: “There are children being shot dead by IDF soldiers. This is OK with you. Fuck off.”?

Nobody’s saying that it’s a simple situation. But these incidents are reported differently and discussed differently from each other. If two Israeli teens walking home in Israel had been shot dead by Hamas snipers, there would be an outcry. The Jerusalem Post reported on these Palestinian children being shot, as did the New York Times and the Times of Israel, but no one else. (Oh, my mistake, the Guardian mentioned it a month later, after the autopsy.)

According to Google, there are 2,374 articles over the last few weeks about the Israeli teens kidnapped by Palestinian terrorists.

I hope you do not interpret my highlighting this difference in Western media reporting as an approval of kidnapping or a lack of condemnation of kidnapping teenagers.

As for my solution? I would start, at a bare minimum, by dismantling the illegal settlements and start talking reparations to the families whose property was destroyed to create them. Very very publicly.
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July 1, 2014 2:02pm
Ashley Schaeffer

A news site of the unnamed diplomat and country is reporting that there will be a news conference and a senior official is indicating said diplomat will be returned to NZ if they can be assured that he will get a fair trial and his life will not be in danger.

That’s a bit rich coming from that Government. Projecting much?
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July 1, 2014 2:07pm
Ryan Sproull

That’s a bit rich coming from that Government. Projecting much?

Do we know which Government it is? I haven’t been following.
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July 1, 2014 2:09pm
dime

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/assignments/working-for-your-family/9776052/Hubbys-raise-made-us-150-wk-poorer

sorry, am i meant to have sympathy? because the dude got a pay increase and now they get less bene’s? boo fucking hoo

OR

are they point out how silly all this middle class welfare actually is? if so, well done.

but it came from stuff so i doubt it
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July 1, 2014 2:10pm
Ashley Schaeffer

Do we know which Government it is? I haven’t been following.

Only if you Google it. It is still suppressed AFAIK.
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July 1, 2014 2:14pm
TimG_Oz

Oh come on Ryan. What Hamas Restraint? Seriously? They have been actively importing weapons as much as possible, and then use it in a purely offensive capability.

There is no Israeli incursion to Gaza to bulldoze farms that you talk of. Not that it would matter to Hamas. Peace is a form of surrender in their eternal war.

You may not like people “crowing” about Hamas Terrorism, but you are certainly an apologist. Keen to make excuses or pretend like it doesn’t exist.

Israel has a Military court, and if soldiers abuse it they are court martialled. Hamas will shoot you and drag your body through the streets behind a motorcycle if you don’t support their terrorist activities. The boys you mention were not “walking down the street” – there was a Riot. Israeli soldiers have been killed in Riots. It made the Israeli newspapers too, you know.

You talk about “property” destroyed to create “illegal” settlements. When settlements were built on Israeli land from pre-1948, then whose land was destroyed?

Given every peace agreement that has offered land swaps has been thwarted by the Palestinian authority, then I guess your solution seems a little thin.
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July 1, 2014 2:16pm
mikenmild

‘every peace agreement that has offered land swaps’
By ‘land swaps’ I guess you really mean offers to return some of the occupied territories.
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July 1, 2014 2:18pm
kowtow

Ritual slaughter F’ugly and his new found and “shaken” disciple n’arsekiser will believe anything.

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/1422_crikeytuam.pdf
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July 1, 2014 2:29pm
TimG_Oz

“I guess you really mean offers to return some of the occupied territories.”

Umm, more than just some. The entire amount, with 50:50 swaps for areas with larger entrenched settlements.
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July 1, 2014 2:29pm
Ryan Sproull

Oh come on Ryan. What Hamas Restraint? Seriously? They have been actively importing weapons as much as possible, and then use it in a purely offensive capability.

Israel has also been actively importing weapons as much as possible. And yes, both Hamas and Israel have used their weapons offensively, but not exclusively. Both are used within their own borders defensively, surely.

There is no Israeli incursion to Gaza to bulldoze farms that you talk of. Not that it would matter to Hamas. Peace is a form of surrender in their eternal war.

Here’s a recent example, Tim – a Palestinian Christian family, this year, with many references to the past decade: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27883685

You may not like people “crowing” about Hamas Terrorism, but you are certainly an apologist. Keen to make excuses or pretend like it doesn’t exist.

No more than I am an apologist for Israeli terrorism by recognising that there are reasons the government acts the way it does. Do you excuse Israeli terrorism or pretend that it doesn’t exist?

Israel has a Military court, and if soldiers abuse it they are court martialled. Hamas will shoot you and drag your body through the streets behind a motorcycle if you don’t support their terrorist activities. The boys you mention were not “walking down the street” – there was a Riot. Israeli soldiers have been killed in Riots. It made the Israeli newspapers too, you know.

Yes, I listed several of the Israeli newspapers that reported it.

Here is one of them, which includes the leaked footage. Can you point out the riot in the video? http://www.jpost.com/Defense/PLO-outraged-as-video-shows-deliberate-execution-of-two-Palestinian-teens-by-IDF-352797

You talk about “property” destroyed to create “illegal” settlements. When settlements were built on Israeli land from pre-1948, then whose land was destroyed?

Land isn’t really destroyed. Lots of people’s property was destroyed. Are you tending towards a kind of “two wrongs make a right” arithmetic?

There’s no need to put “illegal” in scare quotes. It’s not contentious.

Given every peace agreement that has offered land swaps has been thwarted by the Palestinian authority, then I guess your solution seems a little thin.

The breakdowns of peace negotiations are far more complicated than anything as cartoonish as the evil Palestinian authorities thwarting them. And my solution was not a negotiation. It was a withdrawal from illegally occupied land – the cessation of an ongoing crime.

If I was speaking to a supporter of Hamas, I would add that a blanket refusal to target non-combatants (like the rockets fired on Sderot) would also be a step in the right direction. I would add that they should also cease any targeting of occupants in settlements, because the Israeli settlers in them keep their children in those communities too, and it’s not possible to avoid risking hurting those children.
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July 1, 2014 2:34pm
mikenmild

This thread show what happens when you are only capable of looking at Israel/Palestine in a binary way. If you believe that Israel is always in the right, then anyone who points out Israeli wrongs must be a supporter of Hamas and terrorists. But the critic of my friend is not necessarily my enemy.
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July 1, 2014 2:46pm
Ryan Sproull

This thread show what happens when you are only capable of looking at Israel/Palestine in a binary way. If you believe that Israel is always in the right, then anyone who points out Israeli wrongs must be a supporter of Hamas and terrorists. But the critic of my friend is not necessarily my enemy.

It’s a handy rhetorical tool too. If I have to spend all my time explaining that I don’t support Hamas terrorism, there’s no space in the conversation for a discussion of Israel’s actions.
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July 1, 2014 2:50pm
Manolo

Colin James on Silent T and Labour’s woes: http://www.colinjames.co.nz/labours-big-self-education-job-ahead/

A long shadow will encroach on the Labour party’s pre-election “congress” this weekend: a Green shadow. There will be shorter shadows, too.

The short shadows are a faltering leadership, bad polls and a spectre looming out of history and off the internet. They add up to a growing sense in the electorate that for a second election in a row Labour is not headed for office.

A year ago most MPs agreed David Shearer had to go as leader. Now a broadening number concede that Labour under Shearer would not be doing worse than it is under David Cunliffe.
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July 1, 2014 2:50pm
TimG_Oz

Ryan, you seriously are trying to draw an equivalent between Defensive Israeli measures and Offensive Palestinian measures and then

1) try to call Hamas Rockets Defensive
2) try to call Israeli Defensive tactics as purely Terrorist

If you want to flagrantly ignore Israel’s efforts for peace and concessions, including withdrawls, whilst ignoring Palestinian recalcitrance and violence towards their own people,

If you can equate Israeli policy to Hamas “Kill the Jews” Charter.

You don’t just need your head read, you need to look at your morals. There is nothing logical there at all.
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July 1, 2014 2:51pm
TimG_Oz

This thread show what happens when you are only capable of looking at Israel/Palestine in a binary way. If you believe that Israel is always in the right, then anyone who points out Israeli wrongs must be a supporter of Hamas and terrorists. But the critic of my friend is not necessarily my enemy.

Oh fuck off with your straw man arguments. I’m happy to talk shades of grey, you are the one who is bringing it back to absolutes.

Compare a shade of grey to the Hamas “agree with us or die” policy.
You have a fairly substantial Double standard, and you know it.
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July 1, 2014 2:54pm
Ryan Sproull

Ryan, you seriously are trying to draw an equivalent between Defensive Israeli measures and Offensive Palestinian measures and then

1) try to call Hamas Rockets Defensive
2) try to call Israeli Defensive tactics as purely Terrorist

I don’t call Hamas rockets defensive, and I don’t call IDF tactics purely terrorist. (Shades of grey.)

If you want to flagrantly ignore Israel’s efforts for peace and concessions, including withdrawls, whilst ignoring Palestinian recalcitrance and violence towards their own people,

I don’t ignore those things. (Shades of grey.)

If you can equate Israeli policy to Hamas “Kill the Jews” Charter.

Which I don’t. (Shades of grey.)

You don’t just need your head read, you need to look at your morals. There is nothing logical there at all.

Glad we got your misconceptions about my views cleared up there.

So, what are your thoughts on the Jerusalem Post footage of the teenage boy shot, which you justified as being during a “riot”?

And if the roles were reversed, and Israeli teens had been shot by Palestinian militants, what would you consider the appropriate amount of restraint to be exercised by the Israeli government?
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July 1, 2014 2:57pm
mikenmild

Yes Tim, it’s all about shades of grey. As opposed to the black or white approach you seem to want to bring to the issue.
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July 1, 2014 3:03pm
Ryan Sproull

Yes Tim, it’s all about shades of grey. As opposed to the black or white approach you seem to want to bring to the issue.

Mikenmild,

There’s every chance that he genuinely believes that you and I have strongly biased viewpoints in this matter.

Additionally, there’s every chance that he’s right about that.

How would we know? And if he was strongly biased, how would he know?
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July 1, 2014 3:06pm
goldnkiwi

They can’t spell Key
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July 1, 2014 3:07pm
mikenmild

Well of course I’m strongly biased. I have a strong preference towards reasoned discussion.
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July 1, 2014 3:09pm
ShawnLH

“Well of course I’m strongly biased. I have a strong preference towards reasoned discussion.”

Bullshit. Most of your comments are dismissive one liners where you call your targets “nutters.”

That’s hardly reasoned discussion, or discussion at all.
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July 1, 2014 3:11pm
ShawnLH

“Additionally, there’s every chance that he’s right about that.”

Well yes. You once described the founding of Israel as a form of European colonization displacing the indigenous people.

That’s not only biased, it has all the historical validity of Alice in Wonderland.
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July 1, 2014 3:18pm
mikenmild

Don’t be such a nutter, Shawn.
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July 1, 2014 3:18pm
ShawnLH

The Left’s Central Delusion
Its devotion to central planning has endured from the French Revolution to Obamacare.

“If the preconceptions of the Left were correct, central planning by educated elites who had vast amounts of statistical data at their fingertips and expertise readily available, and were backed by the power of government, should have been more successful than market economies where millions of individuals pursued their own individual interests willy-nilly.

But, by the end of the 20th century, even socialist and communist governments began abandoning central planning and allowing more market competition. Yet this quiet capitulation to inescapable realities did not end the noisy claims of the Left.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/352704/lefts-central-delusion-thomas-sowell
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July 1, 2014 3:19pm
Dom Knots

it’s getting really wobbly now. We’re headed for the you – know – what accusations!
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July 1, 2014 3:19pm
Ryan Sproull

Well yes. You once described the founding of Israel as a form of European colonization displacing the indigenous people.

That’s not only biased, it has all the historical validity of Alice in Wonderland.

Well, you would say that, on account of your bias.
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July 1, 2014 3:28pm
ShawnLH

Message From the Left: Left Is Wrong on Israel.

“One of the left’s most significant ideological failings in recent years has been its habit of issuing shrill and hostile rhetorical assaults against the State of Israel.

Before going any further, let me first establish my left-wing bona fides. I believe the Palestinian people have the right to an independent, viable and contiguous state of their own that includes the West Bank and Gaza and East Jerusalem as its capital. I have long been opposed to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank. I believe that Israel should have never imposed an economic blockade on the 1.5 million Palestinians who live in Gaza. And I strongly opposed the Israeli military’s inhumane targeting policies employed during its recent offensive against Hamas in Gaza.

So why do I feel so strongly that most sectors of the left have been so inexcusably wrong when it comes to evaluating Israeli policies? Let’s begin by looking at the left’s reaction to Israel’s assault against Hamas.”

http://www.jewishjournal.com/opinion/item/message_from_the_left_left_is_wrong_on_israel_20090225

Why Israel? Claude S. Fischer.

“Why Israel?—that is, why boycott Israel and not, say, China?—has become a central question in the bitter arguments over the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) movement. The latest brawl followed the decision of the American Studies Association to endorse a boycott of Israeli academic institutions, its first and only such endorsement. The question of why Israel has arisen over boycotting Israeli scholars, Israeli companies, Israeli hummus, American companies that sell to Israel, Israeli music venues, and so on.

That Westerners of Arab, Muslim, or Jewish heritage get involved (on both sides) might be taken for granted; many have deep personal commitments. But why do so many leftish Americans and Europeans who have no personal stake in the Palestine-Israel conflict focus on it? To be clear, the question is not one of justification—whether Israeli policymakers or the boycotters and other critics have moral standing for the positions they hold. What concerns me here is explanation: Why has Israel come to occupy so much of the left’s attention?”

http://www.bostonreview.net/blog/claude-fischer-israel-boycott-academic-association-america

Apologist for Hamas: See No Evil, Hear No Evil.

“Some people say that Mussolini’s fascist government made the trains run on time. But they cannot disguise or excuse the ugly nature of the regime and what it stood for.

Ever since the Gaza war, biased journalists have been looking for ways to whitewash the terrorist Hamas regime in Gaza.”

http://honestreporting.com/apologist-for-hamas-see-no-evil-hear-no-evil/

Israel Vs. Hamas Is Civilization Vs. Savagery.

” Celebration within Gaza after the bombing of a bus filled with innocent Israeli civilians is an object lesson on the so-called Palestine question. Those who would celebrate such a cowardly act are savages.

No one can imagine Washington’s troops firing shots to celebrate a supporter of American independence trying to kill a group of Royalist civilians. During the Cold War, U.S. support for Lech Walesa’s Solidarity would have dried up if he handed out candy after a Polish nationalist targeted, say, innocent Muscovites going to work.

We may live in a complex world, but evil is identifiable even when its practitioners claim their cause is good.”

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/112112-634360-celebrating-bus-bombing-is-reminder-of-hamas-evil.htm
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July 1, 2014 3:30pm
Ryan Sproull

Why Israel?—that is, why boycott Israel and not, say, China?

Are you crazy? We should completely be boycotting China.
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July 1, 2014 3:32pm
Colville

Two grand?

Colville (2,000 comments) says:

Yus!
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July 1, 2014 3:36pm
mikenmild

Congratulations.
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July 1, 2014 3:37pm
Ryan Sproull

Colville,

Condolences on this sad day.

Our thoughts and prayers are with you.
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July 1, 2014 3:38pm
wreck1080

interesting to read the malaysian news..

“Anifah, who is scheduled to hold a press conference on the issue today, said the diplomat would be returned to Wellington only if he was assured of a fair trial and that his life was not in danger there.”

So, the malaysians are concerned he will not get a fair trial or that his life is in danger?

Isn’t funny how a corrupt nation can make such judgements in all seriousness about our justice system.
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July 1, 2014 3:38pm
cha

Amos Oz: Israel – Peace, War and storytelling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIRXwzPQBbE
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July 1, 2014 3:41pm
Odakyu-sen

Ryan,

The reason you boycott Israel is because to boycott China would be waaaaaaaaacccciiiisstttttt!

//
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July 1, 2014 3:43pm
Ryan Sproull

Odakyu,

You’ve got me mixed up with someone else or misread my comment. I said we should be boycotting China.
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July 1, 2014 3:49pm
Odakyu-sen

Hello Ryan,

When I said “you,” I didn’t mean you “you”; I meant protesters-in-general “you.”

(Damn, these English singular/plural second-person personal pronouns are tricky…)
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July 1, 2014 3:56pm
questions

You guys seemed really excited at the prospect of the diplomatic sex offender being a muslim, but not nearly as excited at the prospect that he is a male.

Why might this be?
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July 1, 2014 4:06pm
Ryan Sproull

Hello Ryan,

When I said “you,” I didn’t mean you “you”; I meant protesters-in-general “you.”

(Damn, these English singular/plural second-person personal pronouns are tricky…)

Oh, sorry. I read your comment, then you edited to add my name and thought you were waiting for me to reply.

Youse! Y’all!

Frustrating, the English language.

From my conversations with people who talk about BDS for Israel and not for China, their reasons tend to be that China’s too big to be affected, too uncaring to be affected (might be some racism behind that one), and that Israel claims/wants to be a democracy while China does not. I tend to land more on the “what you want to say with your own actions” side of things, which is less concerned with the chances of a boycott “succeeding”.

I’m not sure how I feel about boycotts in general, actually. Before the Beijing Olympics I talked a lot about how NZ should boycott it, but some people had some strong arguments for cultural exchange having a good effect too.
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July 1, 2014 4:07pm
Odakyu-sen

I personally are all in favor of cultural exchanges.

If you* are an ultra-nationalistic xenophobe, you owe it to yourself to go and live in a foreign country and to learn their language and culture. That way, when you return to your home, you can love it even more; this time with a point of view and perspective with which to measure it.

*The plural second-person personal pronoun version of “you”
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July 1, 2014 4:17pm
RF

That has been Mallard is now reduced to making stupid comments about recreating Moas. I am sure Cunners will be very pleased that the duck is concentrating on important issues. I know of several hard core labour followers who have just given up trying to make excuses for their idiots in parliament.

I see Micky Mouse over on the standard is getting a serve from his own people for sticking up for the duck.
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July 1, 2014 4:18pm
Ryan Sproull

If you* are an ultra-nationalistic xenophobe, you owe it to yourself to go and live in a foreign country and to learn their language and culture. That way, when you return to your home, you can love it even more; this time with a point of view and perspective with which to measure it.

*The plural second-person personal pronoun version of “you”

If one is an ultra-nationalistic xenophobe, one owes it to oneself to go and live in a foreign country and to learn their language and culture. That way, when one returns to one’s home, one can love it even more; this time with a point of view and perspective with which to measure it.

Does that work?
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July 1, 2014 4:28pm
igm

Another raghead sex offender . . . is this all these mongrels are capable of, along with failing to pay taxes and car thieving. Goes to show, no matter what walk of life they come from, they are crap. Suppose he had time to take his prayer mat.
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July 1, 2014 4:44pm
Dom Knots

it doesn’t appear to work. For the sake of everyone’s sanity, though – let’s move on to pluperfect subjunctives or something.
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July 1, 2014 4:45pm
wreck1080

“A tow-truck driver has been found not guilty of unlawful taking of a motor vehicle after driving an impounded car at speeds of up to 113km/h.”

“Defence lawyer Jeremy Bioletti argued, however, that Woods did not know what he was doing was wrong and that belief was important in deciding his guilt or innocence.”

To charge this guy with stealing cars was a bit over the top. More of a joyride, sure, give him a warning but ruin his life?

Interesting that defence lawyer is arguing that ignorance of the law is an excuse 🙂

Good to see he got off. The cops should be spending their time on more important things.

But in saying that, I do not know much about this case and maybe there are other factors in play.
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July 1, 2014 4:49pm
Dom Knots

igm rushes in from stacking shelves at pac n save to dash off a quick post about ragheads before ‘mum’ calls dinner (drum cabbage and parsnips with blade steak) and a rewarding wank on the shower mat while watching shortland street on his cellphone.
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July 1, 2014 4:52pm
David Garrett

igm: Harsh, but with more than a kernel of truth..

Milky Mild and the Sanctimonious Mr George…it seems that like generalisations (which are generally but not always true) “racist stereotypes” also have a way of proving embarrassingly so..

I cant be bothered trying to find my first comment on this, but it was something like the male members of the religion of peace lose control at the sight of a woman’s hair or ankles, and that they must find themselves severely over-stimulated when downtown Courtenay Place of a Saturday night….Seems all we stereotypers were right after all…

Wait for Mr George to remind us that Ibrahim bin Wallah Ibrahim is entitled to the presumption of innocence..(as of course he is)

..And talking of wankers Mr Knotts…I have no idea what igm does for a living and what his educational level is, but I don’t stack shelves for a living and I have a couple of degrees,,,I have also lived a bit in places which don’t resemble Aro Valley or Ponsonby in the slightest.. Have you decided what you will do when you graduate?
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July 1, 2014 4:53pm
cricko

If you have a problem with diplomatic protection conventions would it be OK for a NZ diplomat in, say,
Saudi Arabia to be sentenced to 100 lashes if he was found to be in possession of a bible ?

Get it ?

This Malaysian (alleged) scumbag invoking DP is the price we have to pay.
muslim convention would have it that he did nothing wrong, he was provoked.
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July 1, 2014 5:01pm
stephieboy

igm , less bigotry would be in order about the Malaysian diplomat and there wouldn’t be the same kind of dispersions if say an Italian one presumably.
I’t worth noting that he faces potentially more severe punishments at home for his criminal behaviuor including the rotan whip.

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2013/09/28/Trio-whipped-in-open-court-Youths-get-two-strokes-of-the-rotan-each-for-armed-robbery.aspx

Get it,?

Or beheading .!
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July 1, 2014 5:01pm
David Garrett

stephie: the word you are seeking is “aspersions”…As always, when one is trying to impress others with “big words” it’s most important to know just what the words used mean…

cricko: good points…I know of a few people who narrowly escaped flogging for brewing alcohol in Muslim countries (makes them lose control even more easily…apparently)
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July 1, 2014 5:15pm
lurcher1948

this is a IGM LOVING post but igm is a wanganui FUCKWIT.This post is for a RAPING RAGHEAD,but i dont give a fuck, this raghead is a diplomant.COVERED,KEYS BEST FRIEND, so who gives a fuck LEECHER HATER,DIPSHIT IGM shit from wanganui, a LEECHER,Covers it all dosnt it LEECHER IGM, sounds like a shit post from IGM or better
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July 1, 2014 5:19pm
Lucia Maria

The diplomat is “Mohammed Rizalman Bin Ismail and worked at the Malaysian High Commission in Wellington.”

From the NZ Herald
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July 1, 2014 5:25pm
cricko

Would stephieboy be the most unworldly, naive drong to post on this site ?
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July 1, 2014 5:25pm
David Garrett

cricko: that may well be so, but I think “lurcher” has just demonstrated that he is the poster most in need of serious help…I hope to God the “1948” is not his birthday…

Well done Lucia!! Only about 2 hours behind the play… a bit like the Holy Mother Church and its response to paedophilia really,….still, 2 hours beats 20 years…
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July 1, 2014 5:27pm
igm

lurcher: You have clarified why we should introduce involuntary euthanasia, displaying insanity, and illiteracy, seen only in ardent Labour/Green supporters. Go take your pills, preferably arsenic, saving taxpayers many valuable dollars for projects more worthy than your oxygen wasting!
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July 1, 2014 5:29pm
Lucia Maria

Since there has been a measles outbreak in NZ, I thought I share the following from the World Health Organisation on measles:

The first sign of measles is usually a high fever, which begins about 10 to 12 days after exposure to the virus, and lasts four to seven days. A runny nose, a cough, red and watery eyes, and small white spots inside the cheeks can develop in the initial stage. After several days, a rash erupts, usually on the face and upper neck. Over about three days, the rash spreads, eventually reaching the hands and feet. The rash lasts for 5 to 6 days, and then fades. On average, the rash occurs 14 days after exposure to the virus (within a range of seven to 18 days).

Severe measles is more likely among poorly nourished young children, especially those with insufficient vitamin A, or whose immune systems have been weakened by HIV/AIDS or other diseases.

Most measles-related deaths are caused by complications associated with the disease. Complications are more common in children under the age of five, or adults over the age of 20. The most serious complications include blindness, encephalitis (an infection that causes brain swelling), severe diarrhoea and related dehydration, ear infections, or severe respiratory infections such as pneumonia. As high as 10% of measles cases result in death among populations with high levels of malnutrition and a lack of adequate health care. Women infected while pregnant are also at risk of severe complications and the pregnancy may end in miscarriage or preterm delivery. People who recover from measles are immune for the rest of their lives.

The NZ media really ought to be telling parents about the need for Vitamin A as protection from measles, and not just pushing the vaccine angle.
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July 1, 2014 5:30pm
Lucia Maria

David,

I was busy when the announcement came over the radio, and was surprised to see the name still not mentioned here. Or have I missed it?
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July 1, 2014 5:31pm
stephieboy

cricko,he most unworldly, naive drong to post on this site ?

Nope.

! A test for you.? Do you believe 9/11 was an inside job.?, The Federal Reserve is run by a cabal of nefarious Zionist/ Jews.?, are you a birther.?

If no to to all then you are an enlightened one but otherwise the real naive drone.!
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July 1, 2014 5:35pm
nasska

Nostradamus posted this on 21st June…..

…..”You may not be aware, but “Lurcher1948″ is currently banned from Kiwiblog until 11 September 2032 (yes, you read that correctly).

He’s previously posted under the following aliases (that I know of):

– John
– JSF
– Joe Average
– JoeAverage1948
– Roger Rabbit
– Jock
– Harry Glicken
– paws
– Plebe

He’s an ex-printer, from what I understand, and generally uses the CAPSLOCK key when he gets VERY UPSET.

If you’d like to know more about Lurcher’s unique commenting style, he had a memorable meltdown on this thread. One of my favourite all-time meltdowns on Kiwiblog, in fact! “……
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July 1, 2014 5:36pm
cha

The NZ media really ought to be telling parents about the need for Vitamin A as protection from measles, and not just pushing the vaccine angle.

The NZ media really ought to be telling parents about the need ~~for Vitamin A as protection from measles, and not just pushing the vaccine angle~~ to ban from all schools receiving any taxpayer funding their un-vaccinated children to send a message to the bludging arseholes who take advantage of the herd immunity benefits other peoples vaccinated children provide.

fify
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July 1, 2014 5:38pm
David Garrett

Jeez I have just taken another look at that effort by Mr Lurcher…that is one SERIOUSLY DISTURBED puppy…and it’s several hours too early for it reasonably to be alcohol induced…
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July 1, 2014 5:42pm
Lucia Maria

I looked up the decile rating of the school that has been affected by measles – it’s decile 1. That matches what the WHO website states – that poorly nourished kids are most at risk.
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July 1, 2014 5:43pm
nasska

….” that poorly nourished kids are most at risk.”…..

That makes it easy to fix……just put grated carrot in with the KFC potato & gravy. 🙂
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July 1, 2014 5:45pm
cha

The big news today in the U.S is that the Supreme Court has ruled 5-4 that Hobby Lobby does not have to pay for abortion-inducing contraceptive drugs for their employees through employer health insurance.

Yay, more abortions – larger returns.
/

These companies include Teva Pharmaceutical Industries, which makes Plan B and ParaGard, a copper IUD, and Actavis, which makes a generic version of Plan B and distributes Ella.

Other stock holdings in the mutual funds selected by Hobby Lobby include Pfizer, the maker of Cytotec and Prostin E2, which are used to induce abortions; Bayer, which manufactures the hormonal IUDs Skyla and Mirena; AstraZeneca, which has an Indian subsidiary that manufactures Prostodin, Cerviprime, and Partocin, three drugs commonly used in abortions; and Forest Laboratories, which makes Cervidil, a drug used to induce abortions.

Several funds in the Hobby Lobby retirement plan also invested in Aetna and Humana, two health insurance companies that cover surgical abortions, abortion drugs, and emergency contraception in many of the health care policies they sell.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/hobby-lobby-retirement-plan-invested-emergency-contraception-and-abortion-drug-makers
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July 1, 2014 5:48pm
cricko

Great comment from naaska @ 5.45
Hope Lucia got the point.
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July 1, 2014 5:52pm
Jack5

Cycling was once the working person’s and kids’ transport. There’s a new mob about now, on bikes that cost thousands and wearing only fashionable gear.

Today, we have cycling snobs, says this Daily Telegraph article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/active/recreational-cycling/10923019/Why-does-cycling-attract-so-many-snobs.html
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July 1, 2014 5:52pm
Lucia Maria

Yes, great comment, Cricko, from Nasska.

However, chicken liver would be much more effective – far more Vitamin A than just a bit of grated carrot.

I remember eating chicken livers as a kid, but they seem to be gone from the chooks I buy from the supermarket. Now I have to resort to pate or vitamins.

Why Chicken Livers are good for you
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July 1, 2014 5:59pm
Longknives

“and it’s several hours too early for it reasonably to be alcohol induced…..”

Speak for yourself!
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July 1, 2014 6:03pm
Longknives

But seriously- That Lurcher guy is pretty out there…
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July 1, 2014 6:04pm
Lucia Maria

Cha,

I would have thought, that if you were a parent of a vaccinated child, you’d be interested in knowing more about how to protect your child from measles. Sure you can ban all un-vaccinated children from coming into contact with the vaccinated, but what about all the adults whose immunity has disappeared? Because the only way to be safe is to vaccinate every 10 years, and how many adults do that?
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July 1, 2014 6:09pm
dad4justice

Who cares what Lurcher writes, he has been here longer than most of you. His style hasn’t changed in years. No doubt all you got no life creeps will email David so he can be banned. Some of you are without much to do in life. Seriously who cares. Get a life narsekisser.
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July 1, 2014 6:09pm
cricko

Maybe Lucia could be bought up to speed.

If it were true that vitamin A would prevent measles and that fact was advertised long and loud and far and wide
for all to see, and sources of vitamin A were explained it would make no difference.
The DPB mums and their current boyfriends wouldn’t give a shit.
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July 1, 2014 6:15pm
nasska

My stalker is back.

Hi! 🙂
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July 1, 2014 6:15pm

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