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July 19, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 19 July 2014

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General Debate

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nasska

….”If a pvte pilot got that and obeyed it, how come a commercial flight didn’t?”…..

Probably an issue over the cost of the fuel to alter course Reid. I don’t think pilots react or even think outside the circle….the prospect of redundancy hangs over them.

In any case I read on some news report that the missile hit when the plane was outside the exclusion zone. Plus they were 30,000 feet up in the air!
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July 19, 2014 8:15pm
Reid

Probably an issue over the cost of the fuel to alter course Reid.

That was my thought too nasska and the journo also voiced it. It was on NewstalkZB around 5-5:30 Friday BTW if you want to listen.

If that is the case then it’s interesting the media isn’t pursuing that angle isn’t it, rather they’re pushing non-stop the ‘big bad Wussians did it on purpose cos they’re gweat big meanies’ line.

In any case I read on some news report that the missile hit when the plane was outside the exclusion zone. Plus they were 30,000 feet up in the air!

Air shmair. Any decent ground to air can take out a big fat slow airliner and 30k isn’t high, 100k is high, to those things, these days. You can probably buy ones that could do that from Walmart these days, with a free toaster. “It’s for hunting…”
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July 19, 2014 8:26pm
Yoza

Fletch (5,972 comments) says:
July 19th, 2014 at 7:08 pm

Fletch, The borders drawn on the map at the start of that video make its position quite clear.

You mean the borders decided by the U.N in 1947 to create a 50% Jewish state and a 50% Arab state, to which the jews agreed and the Arabs did not, and attacked Israel in all-out war? Those borders?

50/50 seems very fair to me.

It didn’t help that the British, who were the military administration at the time, also rejected the UN plan as the Palestinians and British were subject to regular acts of Zionist terror,

[a]s Jewish leader David Ben-Gurion recorded in his personal history of Israel: “From 1946 to 1947 there were scarcely any Arab attacks on the Yishuv [the Jewish community in Palestine
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July 19, 2014 8:27pm
Kiwi Dave

Dean, you raise a legitimate and difficult ethical question, but so long as Hamas hide or site the weapons among civilians (which I understand is considered a war crime in international law) and so long as Hamas uses these weapons to attack Israeli civilians, we can scarcely expect Israel not to defend itself, and this will involve civilian casualties. If you know a more humane and FEASIBLE response, let us all know. At the moment it looks, as others have remarked, that Hamas uses civilians quite cynically to protect its weapons and promote Palestinians as innocent victims for the purpose of international propaganda.
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July 19, 2014 8:32pm
nasska

….”You can probably buy ones that could do that from Walmart these days, with a free toaster.”…..

But not in Godzone unless it’s in the four days that lead up to Guy Fawkes.

OH & S get a bit worked up about those sort of things.
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July 19, 2014 8:37pm
Reid

It didn’t help that the British, who were the military administration at the time, also rejected the UN plan as the Palestinians and British were subject to regular acts of Zionist terror,

Yes Yoza. An example of the official view that gets voiced by all the decent people, vs. the real policy implemented by those the Queen referred to as ‘Be careful, Paul… There are powers at work in this country of which we have no knowledge. Do you understand?’

And those were the people who first promulgated then implemented the Balfour Declaration, etc. The etc part being the wars that made people want to go to Israel in the first place.
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July 19, 2014 8:39pm
All_on_Red

Nasska
Here’s a great SR71 story for you.

http://www.econrates.com/reality/schul.html
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July 19, 2014 8:43pm
Reid

OH & S get a bit worked up about those sort of things.

Poncy little pricks aren’t they.

Is there anything they don’t spoil?

They even made those orange cones so common it’s no fun to steal them and watch people crash anymore.

It’s not fair.
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July 19, 2014 8:48pm
Yoza

Fletch (5,974 comments) says:
July 19th, 2014 at 8:11 pm

Here is Melanie Phillips on the subject –

The woman is a nutter as this review of her book Londonstan demonstrates:

One set of passages I just read now strikes me as exceptionally weird, and representative of Mel P’s contradictory state of mind. On p. 28, she says: “Britain… has effectively allowed itself to be taken hostage by militant gays, feminists or ‘antiracists’ who used weapons such as public vilification, moral blackmail and threats to peoples’ livelihoods to force the majority to give in to their demands. And these demands were identical to those made by the Islamists…”

Wait a minute… am I reading correctly?

At this point I felt like nominating Mel P for this year’s British Comedy Award, except that after reading a bit more the inclination to laugh gets replaced by a sense of disbelief, confusion, incredulity, and nausea.

How can you take seriously someone who believes that:

1) The United Kingdom has been taken hostage by gays, no, not just gays, militant gays (gays with guns?, what the hell is that supposed to mean???), feminists and antiracists, no wait we have to put that in inverted commas, “antiracists”. Is she trying to describe the Blair Cabinet?

2) These illegitimate “minorities” have “forced the majority to give in to their demands”. OK people: let’s be frank here, you can open your heart when you leave your blog comments… when you wake up in the morning, do you feel that you’ve been subjugated by a scary group of gays, feminists and antiracists who’ve just taken over your country and are now threatening to take your job too?

3) The demands of this scary group are “identical” to the demands of “Islamists”, and by Islamists, Mel P means, basically terrorists.
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July 19, 2014 8:49pm
nasska

All_on_Red

Good oneupsmanship! 🙂

Ages back one of our commenters who’s been absent for a while put this up:

….”boredboy (250 comments) says:
January 24th, 2012 at 5:31 pm

It was probably an injury sustained on the Great Barrier Airways Britten-Norman Islander aircraft you flew back on. They are well-known for not being very comfortable so I am not surprised you were injured in this way. Perhaps even you flew back on the new model. I read a review of it some years ago and have copied it here:

Undaunted by aerodynamic reality, the design team at Pilatus/Britten-Norman has announced plans for the BN2-XL (Extra Loud), promising more noise, reduced payload, a lower cruise speed, and increased pilot workload.

We spoke to Mr. Fred Gribble, former British Rail boilermaker and now Chief Project Engineer. Fred was responsible for developing many original and creative design flaws in the service of his former employer, and assures he will be incorporating these in the new BN2-XL technology under a licensing agreement.

Fred reassured BN-2 pilots however that all fundamental design flaws of the original model had been retained. Further good news is that the XL version is available as a retrofit.

Among the new measures is that of locking the ailerons in the central position, following airborne and simulator tests which showed that whilst pilots of average strength were able to achieve up to 30° of control wheel deflection, this produced no appreciable variation in the net flight path of the aircraft.

Thus the removal of costly and unnecessary linkages has been possible, and the rudder has been nominated as the primary directional control. In keeping with this new philosophy, but to retain commonality for crews transitioning to the XL, additional resistance to foot pressure has been built into the rudder pedals to prevent overcontrolling in gusty conditions (defined as those in which wind velocity exceeds 3 knots).

An outstanding feature of Islander technology has always been the adaptation of the 0-540 engine, which mounted in any other aircraft in the free world (except the Trislander) is known for its low vibration levels, so as to cause it to shake and batter the airframe, gradually crystallise the main spar, desynchronise the accompanying engine, and simulate the sound of fifty skeletons fornicating in an aluminium dustbin.

Britten-Norman will not disclose the technology they applied in enhancing this effect in the XL, but Mr. Gribble assures us it will be perpetuated in later models and sees it as a strong selling point; “After all, the Concorde makes a lot of noise,” he said, “and look how fast it goes.”

However, design documents clandestinely recovered from the Britten-Norman shredder have solved a question that has puzzled aerodynamicists and pilots for many years, disclosing that it is actually noise which causes the BN-2 to fly. The vibration set up by the engines and amplified by the airframe, in turn causes the air molecules above the wing to oscillate at atomic frequency, reducing their density and causing lift. This can be demonstrated by sudden closure of the throttles, which causes the aircraft to fall from the sky. As a result, lift is proportional to noise rather than speed, explaining amongst other things the aircraft’s remarkable takeoff performance. In the driver’s cab (as Gribble describes it), ergonomic measures will ensure that long-term PBN pilots’ deafness does not cause inflight dozing. Orthopaedic surgeons have designed a cockpit layout and seat to maximise backache, enroute insomnia, chronic irritability, and terminal (post-flight) lethargy. Redesigned ‘bullworker’ elastic aileron cables, now disconnected from the control surfaces, increase pilot workload and fitness.

Special noise retention cabin lining is an innovation on the XL, and it is hoped in later models to develop cabin noise to a level which will enable pilots to relate ear pain directly to engine power, eliminating the need for engine instruments altogether.

We were offered an opportunity to fly the XL at Britten-Normans’ developmental facility, adjacent to the Britrail tea rooms at Little Chortling. (The flight was originally to have been conducted at the Pilatus plant, but aircraft of Britten-Norman design are now prohibited from operating in Swiss airspace during the avalanche season).
For our mission profile, the XL was loaded with fossil fuel for a standard 100 nm with Britrail reserves, carrying one pilot and nine passengers to maximise discomfort.

Passenger loading is unchanged, the normal under-wing protrusions inflicting serious lacerations on 71% of boarding passengers, and there was the usual entertaining confusion in selecting a door appropriate to the allocated seat.

The facility for the clothing of embarking passengers to remove oil slicks from engine cowls during loading has also been thoughtfully retained.
Startup is standard, and taxying, as in the BN-2, is accomplished by brute force. Takeoff calculations called for a 250 decibel power setting, and the rotation force for the (neutral) C of G was calculated as 180ft/lbs of back pressure.

Initial warning of an engine failure during takeoff is provided by a reduction in flight instrument panel vibration. Complete seizure of one engine is indicated by the momentary illusion that the engines have suddenly and inexplicably become synchronised. Otherwise, identification of the failed engine is achieved by comparing the vibration levels of the windows on either side of the cabin. (Relative passenger pallor has been found to be an unreliable guide on many BN-2 routes because of ethnic considerations).

Shortly after takeoff the XL’s chief test pilot, Capt. “Muscles” Mulligan, demonstrated the extent to which modem aeronautical design has left the BN-2 untouched; he simulated pilot incapacitation by slumping forward onto the control column, simultaneously applying full right rudder and bleeding from the ears. The XL, like its predecessor, demonstrated total control rigidity and continued undisturbed.

Power was then reduced to 249 decibels for cruise, and we carried out some comparisons of actual flight performance with graph predictions.
At 5000′ and ISA, we achieved a vibration amplitude of 500 CPS and 240 decibels, for a fuel flow of 210 lb/hr, making the BN-2 XL the most efficient converter of fuel to noise since the Titan rocket.

Exploring the constant noise-variable speed and constant speed-variable noise concepts, we found that in a VNE dive, vibration reached its design maximum at 1000 CPS, at which point the limiting factor is the emulsification of human tissue. The catatonic condition of long term BN-2 pilots is attributed to this syndrome, which commences in the cerebral cortex and spreads outwards.

We asked Capt. Mulligan what he considered the outstanding features of the XL. He cupped his hand behind his car and shouted. “Whazzat?”
We returned to Britten-Norman field convinced that the XL model retains the marque’s most memorable features, while showing some significant and worthwhile regressions.”…….
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July 19, 2014 8:54pm
cha

Lots here for Blackbird fans.

http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/sr-71~1.htm
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July 19, 2014 9:08pm
All_on_Red

Good speech from Brian Shul on that link Cha
“I have always found it interesting that those arguing for the right to burn the flag, are usually the least willing to defend those rights, and are made free and kept so by better men than themselves.”
He’s talking about you yoza, and not the better men part
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July 19, 2014 9:42pm
goldnkiwi

Wouldn’t it be great if Winston did actually stand in East Coast Bays then he and Craig can be directly compared, policy wise especially, one venal and one with enthusiasm and ambition.
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July 19, 2014 9:49pm
Yoza

All_on_Red (1,329 comments) says:
July 19th, 2014 at 9:42 pm

Good speech from Brian Shul on that link Cha
“I have always found it interesting that those arguing for the right to burn the flag, are usually the least willing to defend those rights, and are made free and kept so by better men than themselves.”
He’s talking about you yoza, and not the better men part

The trouble with that bit of gibberish is all men on all sides of any war are fighting under the pretext of ‘defending the freedoms’ of their compatriots.
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July 20, 2014 12:56am
Judith

So at the end of the day (or the beginning in this case) we can conclude that it was man’s greed that cost the lives of those 298 people.

Either greed for increased profit, which stopped the airline from taking the precautionary move of not flying over a war zone, or the greed of two countries fighting over the same piece of land – one wanting what the other has, whatever type of greed it was – it killed all those innocent people who just wanted to be somewhere else, with someone they loved, or doing something they loved.

It never seems to be those that are filled with ambitious hate that suffer from their actions. Historically it has always been that way, and futuristically, it looks set to be the same. What is a life worth – what are 298 lives worth?
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July 20, 2014 6:08am

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