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June 5, 2014 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 5 June 2014

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General Debate

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Pete George

Representative democracy and the MMP threshold

One of the strongest reasons for having a representative democracy is that we hope that elected representatives will be better informed than most voters and are able to uphold the interests of minorities.

A good example of this is a significant majority of MPs who supported giving the right of marriage to a small minority of people.

Discussions over the MMP threshold (currently set above the Commission recommended level in the early nineties) range from those who think we should have a much reduced (or no) threshold to optimise proportional representation, to those who think it should be higher to shut out small parties.

A common call is to follow the advice of the Electoral Commission last year and lower the threshold to 4%. Part of the justification for setting this level is majority support and majority submissions.

But this is a case of the majority having vested interests in excluding a minority from representation.

A large majority of voters support National, Labour, Greens and NZ First. If they had a referendum on MMP rules they could have the numbers to shut out all smaller parties. In effect that’s what the 5% threshold does, except for the current coat tail provision.

If we were ruled by referendum where all voters decided law we may have never clamped down on drink driving, we may have no parking or speeding offences. We could vote for much lower taxes and higher Government expenditure.

Our elected representatives see greater good in imposing laws that the majority of us grumble about.

If our Members of Parliament could put their own selfish interests and their party interests aside and decide democratic rights for everybody including minorities they would drop the MMP threshold, not to what a majority decided suited them but to allow everyone proportional representation.

Our current MMP system is criticised a lot, mainly due to distortions through the artificial threshold and coat tail provisions that are exploited by existing parties – and now by the Internet Party.

Dropping the coat tail provision and barely lowering the threshold may please a majority of voters but it would reduce fair proportionality.

Our elected representatives should be able to use their greater knowledge and exercise responsibility for all voters, not just a majority. They should improve our democracy, not shut out a minority from representation because of self interest.

If National wanted to lead on improving our democratic system, if Labour truly wanted a better MMP, they would work together in the best interests of everyone, including a currently excluded minority.

A representative democracy should provide the best possible representation for all voters and not deliberately exclude some votes from counting.

The threshold is undemocratic – especially if the coat tailing provision is dropped.

It’s the threshold that should be dropped, not the coat tail exception.
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June 5, 2014 8:02am
Ryan Sproull

Great piece in First Things on watered-down bandwagon “I hate religion but I’m real spiritual” Buddhism: Hate Religion but Love Buddhism? Buddhism is a Religion Too.
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June 5, 2014 8:03am
Keeping Stock

It’s not often I’ll give a trade union a compliment, but well done to the PPTA for putting aside its traditional beef with National and engaging in negotiations over the Investing in Educational Success (IES) program.

The same cannot be said of EPMU however; their elitism and snobbery over 139 jobs being created by a telcomms company is low-rent stuff.

http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2014/06/two-unions-polar-opposite-reactions.html
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June 5, 2014 8:04am
kowtow

Our elected representatives should represent us.That would be a good start.
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June 5, 2014 8:09am
minus

[Prime Minister John Key] said he had not known the law allowed parties to stand as joint force and then split into separate parties after the election and “it seems a bit of a rort.”
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11264156

Can in fact two parties, Internet and Mana, stand as component party for the Election and the split after it, into individual parties again?

The electorate seat, that allows them in, would obviously be Harawira’s, as it is now, but those [on the Maori Roll] eligible to vote for Harawira may find him listed as Internet / Mana, as will also be the party name on their Party Vote list.
So even at Electorate vote level he may be named under the umbrella party, with no indication of actual Mana support or whether people voting him in do that as an Internet member.

And on General Roll for the Party List the name will be the umbrella party, again with no indication of individual party support, so it is beyond me to see how in a split a court would allocate List seats to individual parties – their would be no indication of that intent.

If Harawira runs under the umbrella party name, that may be what his seat legally becomes, rather than “Mana” which might not individually appear anywhere on the voting paper. No matter either what his majority was last time, since this time round voters favouring Internet may be his majority – who the fuck would know.

Hone may have been very careful on advice setting this up, but I do wonder if they have also looked at how it may [or may not] come apart, despite their contract having a review clause for six weeks after the Election.

Ki tonu taku waka topaki i te tuna 🙂
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June 5, 2014 8:13am
WineOh

TV Coverage of elections in South Korea is obviously the way we need to go, check these out:
http://imgur.com/a/BMTPF
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June 5, 2014 8:18am
kowtow

While the Lame Stream Media concentrate on the Queen’s carriage ,her speech includes cultural marxism in the form of a “Cinderella Bill”. There will no be a law extending abuse to ’emotional neglect”.

In a country where there are gender selection abortions and no action taken by parliament there will be a law that requires some parents to love their children……

……and multicultural Britain ,which claims to celebrate diversity is also passing a law against that diverse and multicultural practise of female genital mutilation.That will cause a bit less enrichment .

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-27693587
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June 5, 2014 8:18am
WineOh

Have there been any opinion polls in Te Tai Tokes since the Inter-Fraud party was formed?
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June 5, 2014 8:24am
peterwn

John Banks decision – scheduled 2.15pm no 7 court Auckland.
http://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/business/calendar/daily-lists/4-National-Court-List-Thursday-05-06-2014.pdf
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June 5, 2014 8:31am
Viking2

kowtow (7,100 comments) says:
June 5th, 2014 at 8:09 am

Our elected representatives should represent us.That would be a good start.
=================================================

True.

So, there are no Catholics nor Maori that represent me nor I suggest any Hindu, Muslim, Viking and many others.

When you can decide how we should be represented than let us know. Meanwhile they can all fuck off out of my life.
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June 5, 2014 8:33am
hj

Irelands Bizzare Silence over Dead Babies
http://www.vocativ.com/world/ireland-world/irelands-bizarre-silence-around-800-dead-babies/

There used to be a house on the summit road in Christchurch which was Catholic and had for something to do with having babies?
It’s one of those memories where you don’t know if it was real or you dreamt it (I think it was west of the Sign of The Kiwi)?
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June 5, 2014 8:44am
kowtow

hj

It’s big news there and ministers are already bleating.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/probe-into-mother-and-baby-homes-30329595.html
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June 5, 2014 8:50am
peterwn

minus – there would seem to be nothing in theory stopping a party with list MP’s in the House dividing. One problem would seem to be with electoral law if a list MP dies, resigns, etc. If a Party A list MP seat becomes vacant and the next person on the combined list is a Party B person, then that person would be the successor. The parties could agree that the next Party A person on the list would get the seat, but then the Party B person (or people) ahead of the Party A person would be permanently locked out. The other problem is whether Parliament recognises the split – this has implications for seating, question and speech allocations, accommodation and whether the additional leader is recognised for salary, budget and accommodation purposes.
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June 5, 2014 8:51am
kowtow

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/304771/archibald-baxter-memorial-plan-causes-consternation

Benson Pope supports memorial to conscientious objector.
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June 5, 2014 8:52am
hj

Thought Police Alert

An iwi leader is calling an Asia New Zealand Foundation survey mischievous and subversive for asking Maori to say what New Zealanders think of Asians.
Recent research by the organisation showed 44 percent of Maori polled believed New Zealanders felt less warm towards people from Asia.
Ngahiwi Tomoana, of Ngati Kahungunu, said the answer did not have any value, except to force Maori into a point of view and that he did not know why the question was posed.
Mr Tomoana said Maori had been painted as anti-Asian thanks to media reports on the survey.
However, that was false and while many Pakeha New Zealanders were anti-Asian, the attention had been deflected to Maori, he said.
The Perceptions of Asia report surveyed 1000 New Zealanders, and about 10 percent were Maori.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/246348/asia-foundation-survey-'subversive‘

could be they see their interests threatened? How preposterous!
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June 5, 2014 9:00am
alex Masterley

Kowtow,
I knew Baxter’s son, who like his more famous brother JK, didn’t travel a conventional path. I didn’t know of Baxter senior at all. in the 15 odd years I lived in Dunedin I heard no mention of him at all.
For Benson-Pope to call him famous is a bit rich.
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June 5, 2014 9:00am
igm

Benson Pope is no different to any other Labourite, having supported conscientious objection, desertion, and manipulation, while every other poor bastard was away fighting to defend them. Take a look at “Tojo” Cunliffe, by-product of conshies, apologist for Japan, and an outright example of Chamberlain-type politics. These types defy decency and should be treated as lepers.
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June 5, 2014 9:10am
Bob

An article on Stuff news suggests that New Zealand is now the lucky country. As an Australian who has been here since the 1960s I thought if I waited long enough the move would be worthwhile.

Seriously I think we have a lot to thank the National government under John Key for. I believe the country has been very competently managed for the last six years and I certainly hope they take the next election. To me a government made up of Labour and assorted clowns doesn’t bear thinking about.
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June 5, 2014 9:13am
kowtow

Re Baxter. The academics pushing this are IMHO piggy backing off the 1914 Centenary Commemorations.They know there will be support for this sort of rubbish from our “progressive” council,where there’s very little common sense.

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/299123/public-urged-get-involved-world-war-1-commemorations
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June 5, 2014 9:18am
hj

Nor wester in port hills Bill Sutton
http://www.teara.govt.nz/mi/artwork/10229/norwester-in-the-port-hills
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June 5, 2014 9:20am
mikenmild

So Archibald Baxter can’t be famous because Alex Masterley hasn’t heard of him? LOL. The Baxter story is very well known.
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June 5, 2014 9:22am
thedavincimode

A bit bitchy this morning milky.

Your shout for morning tea?
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June 5, 2014 9:31am
hj

There is no shortage of explanations, and no shortage of solutions. But the problem that lies behind our multiple housing crises is simple and obvious. It is, at root, a failure to tax.
//
The profits are amazing: an average of 16.3% on a buy-to-let mortgage over the past 18 years. Last year, the Daily Mirror introduced us to a man called Charles Gow. He is the son of Ian Gow, a Conservative housing minister who presided over Margaret Thatcher’s policy of selling council houses to their tenants at massive discounts. Charles Gow now owns with his wife at least 40 former council flats on just one estate in south London. When he started buying, in 1996, they were worth £100,000 each. Now they are valued at £300,000 or more, and he rents them out for £1,500 a month.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/02/housing-tax-property-help-to-buy-government-schemes
I bet Charles Gow thinks lifes just peachy! He’d be a NAct voter (and member of Taxpayers Union)!?
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June 5, 2014 9:36am
mikenmild

I’d be delighted to shout you DVM.
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June 5, 2014 9:37am
ciaron

DEBBIE MORA;
Riccarton-Wigram Community Board member,
“The people’s Choice” candidate,
Drives her stickered up Suzuki Swift like a fucking lunatic (speeds, changes lanes without indicating, uses horn for no reason…)

Top Tip: if you’re in a branded vehicle, don’t drive like a C**T!
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June 5, 2014 9:40am
Grendel

Ciaron, i have become a very careful driver since i got my Suzuki Swift signwritten, not being able to let go at people who cut me off, or suicidal cyclists has been a bit sad, but better than being seen in a negative light.

my dad borrowed the car while we were on holiday and told me he never felt so conspicuous, and so he drove much much more careful than usual (which probably pissed people off more to be honest).
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June 5, 2014 10:03am
David Garrett

DVM: I have to support Milky on this one..I believe Baxter’s story is very well known…

I am on record here as being a huge supporter and admirer of our service men and women in both World Wars…I remain in awe of them. But guys like Baxter were courageous too…it cannot have been an easy path to tred, especially in WW II when the cause was so demonstrably just and good

There may well have been “conchies” who just didn’t want to fight; Baxter was not one of them.
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June 5, 2014 10:12am
ciaron

Grendel; you’re not admitting to being Debbie Mora… Are you??
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June 5, 2014 10:13am
SGA

alex Masterley at 9:00 am

I didn’t know of Baxter senior at all. in the 15 odd years I lived in Dunedin I heard no mention of him at all.

Alex, there’s a recent TV movie made concerning those WWI objectors –
http://tvnz.co.nz/field_punishment_no1/video
Not seen it myself, so no guarantees concerning the quality or accuracy.
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June 5, 2014 10:29am
Brian Smaller

The Archibald Baxter story is well known to anyone with an interest in NZ and WWI. Less well known is that when I was a lad my Mum had a restaurant in Wanganui and when JK came down from up the river he used to have a huge steak and chips, two eggs and mushrooms and a pot of tea.
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June 5, 2014 10:33am
Grendel

Ciaron, no, i have no idea who she is, but she clearly did not learn the lesson i did for how to drive in a branded car.
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June 5, 2014 10:37am
cha

Tank Man – 5/6/89.

.

Twenty-five years ago, before the Tiananmen massacre, my father told me: “Son, be good and stay at home, never provoke the Communist Party.”

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/jun/03/tanks-people-tiananmen-square/
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June 5, 2014 10:40am
Paulus

I see that TVNZ are advertising for people to tell them what they want to hear.
Blatant Electioneering as we will see –
This is not what TVNZ are for and should try and report the news not make it.
But what can you expect from them
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June 5, 2014 10:41am
David Garrett

Brian S: Old Hemi didn’t claim to be a vegetarian did he?? He would have needed to keep his strength up for “counselling” all those young gels who made their way to Jerusalem and enlightenment…

He died of a heart attack from memory…It was of course his personal choice to eat those cholesterol laden breakfasts, and no reflection at all on your mother…
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June 5, 2014 10:48am
cricko

“I knew it was going to be bigger than the rest, but when I pulled it up I couldn’t believe it.”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2647125/Britains-biggest-tiddler-Angler-catches-biggest-stickleback-Britain-second-year-three-grams-heavier-one-caught-year.html

“My wife filleted it and skinned it then pan fried it and we ate it with little one millimetre long chips.”

You gotta love those Poms.
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June 5, 2014 11:00am
stephieboy

Archibald Baxter wrote about his experiences as a conscientious objectorin his book “We Shall not Cease ” It’s available online as an e book ,free from the link below.A marvelous read both harrowing , sad but with some humor as well. Apparently at the during f his ordeal ordinary soldiers ended up regarding him with huge respect for standing and holding onto his beliefs,

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-BaxWeWi.html

More background on Baxter and his book is here,

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/biographies/3b19/baxter-archibald-mccoll-learmond
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June 5, 2014 11:01am
Jack5

In Pete George’s 8.02 post:

If we were ruled by referendum where all voters decided law we may have never clamped down on drink driving, we may have no parking or speeding offences. We could vote for much lower taxes and higher Government expenditure.

Our elected representatives see greater good in imposing laws that the majority of us grumble about.

Switzerland is better governed than NZ, and extensively uses and accepts referendums (or referenda if you prefer). The Swiss economy is twice as successful as NZ’s, and the Swiss system gives the country exceptional political stability. With pressure for further fragmentation of NZ’s party system, NZ’s political system could well be far from stable within ten years.

Germany, the home of MMP, has recently warned the Swiss about their direct democracy, which has seen citizens impose immigration limits. The Germans, to draw the country’s war fangs, have been indoctrinated by peaceniks and Redbaiters’ Progs. As a result, German politicians don’t have the balls to put their own immigration policy to a referendum. This issue is relevant to NZ, where politicians are overseeing the biggest ethnic restructuring of NZ since the Treaty of Waitangi – without political debate or voter participation. Clearly, our politicians regard NZ’s citizens as children unable to choose what is best for themselves.

The high-handedness of our political elites is bolstered by NZ media being overwhelmingly foreign owned, with a far smaller sliver owned by the State. Thank goodness for the Internet!

http://direct-democracy.geschichte-schweiz.ch/switzerlands-system-referendums.html
http://www.democracy-building.info/switzerlands-political-system.html
http://www.euractiv.com/sections/global-europe/german-president-cautions-swiss-direct-democracy-301340
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June 5, 2014 11:20am
cricko

Not all conchies are gutless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Doss

Read his citation.
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June 5, 2014 11:27am
stephieboy

cricko, I suspect that the citation of Desmond Doss like Archibald Baxter and others will not convince many on our rabid right who are happy to label and demonize them as “commies ” , l”eftiies” etc
Never mind an appeal to reason , rationality. good judgement and sense .
Many of them are simply not normal people.
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June 5, 2014 11:39am
OneTrack

Pete – “The threshold is undemocratic – especially if the coat tailing provision is dropped.

It’s the threshold that should be dropped, not the coat tail exception.
”

No, it’s MMP that is a crock. Time for a new system, something that is a little bit harder to rort by losers trying (and apparently succeeding) to game the system.

No coat-tailing and no miniscule single issue parties wagging the dog.

And as a side benefit we would only need half as many MPs on their luxurious salaries. What do the Green Party, Labour Party and Mana MPs currently do anyway (apart from whine interminably about glasses of milk that the voting public of New Zealand obviously don’t care about)? Maybe if parliament was a bit less like some sort of country club for them, we might get something done.
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June 5, 2014 11:46am
Fletch

Antarctic sea ice setting more records. The largest extant since measurements began in 1979. So tell me again how it’s melting.

Antarctic sea ice has set a new record for May, with extent at the highest level since measurements began in 1979. At the end of the month, it expanded to 12.965 million sq km, beating the previous record of 12.722 million sq km set in 2010. This year’s figure is 10.3% above the 1981-2010 climatological average of 11.749 million sq km.

http://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2014/06/04/antarctic-sea-ice-continues-to-blow-away-records/
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June 5, 2014 11:49am
Ed Snack

Hmmm, there does seem to be a firestorm brewing in the USA over the prisoner swap deal with the Taliban. Obama’s historic series of complete blunders carries on. To me what really stands out is not the story, whether Bergdhal was a deserter or even a collaborator or any of that, it is the complete mis-reading of the likely reaction by Obama and his advisers.

They made this a “hold the front page” full welcome in the Rose Garden and sent Susan Rice of Benghazi “fame” (or notoriety would be more accurate) to state in the full glare of national TV that Bergdhal “served with honour and distinction”. Surely they must have known the doubts that exist, after all they have full access (unlike the Senate committee that by a law he himself signed into being should have but doesn’t) to the confidential file on Bergdhal, and by all accounts it is a significant file. This is one case at least where Obama can’t claim to have learned of this from the newspapers !

So why did they think this would play in their favour. As it is currently unfolding it could be the worst received action in a presidency marked by sheer incompetence and stupidity, and may generate a rare degree of bi-partisan condemnation.

But I guess that Obama though can still depend on the majority of the mainstream media, TV and print, to keep carrying his water and not to give this story any real prominence. I can see the NYT putting a 1 paragraph story on page 19 on the whole affair. But it’s out beyond that now and I doubt that the lid can be kept on.

I wonder what it will take for people to recognize just how terrible a president Obama has been and is.
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June 5, 2014 12:14pm
Nukuleka

Auckland Council has made a grant- albeit a small one- to a gay forum on polyamory, the ‘Poly Panel, Discussion around Queer Polyamory’. I wonder really whether the majority of ratepayers would applaud their rates being spent in such a way. Three way, four way, any way marriage?

It is a truism that every time the line in the sand is shifted, in this case with firstly with same sex civil union and then same sex marriage, the debate lurches even further towards lunacy. This is why I will never agree to the call for the legalisation of voluntary euthanasia. It will start with all sorts of rules and regulations around it to supposedly avoid abuse. But once such legislation is passed then there will be, as in Belgium, the call for its extension to include children. Next up the handicapped and so on and on.

The Conservative Party only needs to draw its own line in the sand on these issues and it will have my vote. Sadly we can’t expect such firmness from the National party.
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June 5, 2014 12:19pm
Harriet

Well said Nukuleka.
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June 5, 2014 12:30pm
RRM

Well, today’s the day I might be forced to take my hat off to Penny Bright, if John Banks goes down… 😐
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June 5, 2014 12:32pm
nasska

….”The Conservative Party only needs to draw its own line in the sand on these issues and it will have my vote. “…..

They will be relieved to hear that I’m sure…..three months out from the election & already they have the support of the selfish, the Godaddled & those who would prefer to die screaming sewn up.

Another thousand or two & Colin the Crazy may get his deposit back.
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June 5, 2014 12:35pm
SGA

Pete George at 8:02 am

The threshold is undemocratic – especially if the coat tailing provision is dropped.
It’s the threshold that should be dropped, not the coat tail exception.

I’m not sure that there is such a beast as the perfect electoral system, but I don’t think that dropping the threshold all together would be a good idea. You can’t simply extrapolate from the situation now – it changes the whole playing field. For example, I’d guess that we’d see some splintering of the current parties – a party like the Greens might calve a stronger Legalise Cannabis Party (they bounce around 1% as it is) and/or a Animal Rights Party. Similarly, who knows what sort of redistributed ACT / Libertarion / Conservative / Christian groups might emerge as people followed their particular issues. Why not a Sensible Sentencing Party?
There are horse-trading and compromises that must go on within parties now to attempt the 5% threshold – I’d worry that all of these would be played out through even more tortuous coalition deals than we see now, and in parliment itself.
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June 5, 2014 12:41pm
Harriet

“…….Another thousand or two & Colin the Crazy may get his deposit back…..”

More likely NZ will get it’s sanity back! 😎
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June 5, 2014 12:54pm
stephieboy

Ed Snack of the “reputable ” and the chronic know it all of Birther fame, along with their 220 plus failed court actions and petitions , both at courts of first instance right through to the US Supreme Court.
All the Birther petitions , , claims and appeals struck out , found as been either without any merit , frivolous or vexatious ,

http://tesibria.typepad.com/whats_your_evidence/BIRTHER%20CASE%20LIST.pdf

That latest May 14th 2014 rejected Alabama Supreme Court 7-2 majority,.

http://www.mrconservative.com/2014/04/39027-supreme-court-rules-on-obamas-birth-certificate-in-landmark-decision/

Note the typical conservative and birthed hysteria describing Obama as tyrant.I suppose next Ed Snack will be telling us that the President is the Anti Christ as per Alex Jones and Infowars.?

Now how could the vast majority of the learned judges right to the Supreme court of the U S be so wrong and Ed Snack so right .?
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June 5, 2014 1:00pm
dirty harry

Banks is gone…he’s history..he knew
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June 5, 2014 1:15pm
Don the Kiwi

Re Global warming.
I have a friend who is presently touring Canada and the USA. Last week he sent me an e-mail, which included this statement:

“Lake Louise was almost completely iced over something we did not expect which was unusual for this time of year.”

He mentions his friend, who had lived in that area for 20 something years, had not seen this before at the beginning of summer.

Yep, that’s global warming alright. Goes along with what Fletch posted re Antarctica.
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June 5, 2014 1:15pm
mike tan

I strongly oppose any warrant-less spying on NZ citizens/residents however am finding it very annoying that the IP and their followers can’t seem to see that the GCSB has a functional role. I have no issue with the GCSB conducting operations against foreign nations (and coordinating with NZ allies) for the simple reason that every nation has a spy agency and its foolish to leave ourselves exposed by opting out of “the game” that everyone else is playing based on some moral principle.
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June 5, 2014 1:20pm
Jack5

Re Conchie 11.27 and stephieboy at 11.46:

Who could question Archibald Baxter’s courage as a pacifist dragged to the front in World War 1, or the barbaric treatment of conscientious objectors then? However, they weren’t the only ones to suffer. The four NZ soldiers shot by firing squads are an example of the mood of the times.

On the other hand, it is useful to distinguish between pacifists like Baxter, and the many other pacifists like Desmond Doss who served at or near the fronts either as field medics or ambulance drivers, putting their lives at much as risk as soldiers did. Wouldn’t Baxter have made his political point in a more pragmatic way, if he had just as bravely served as a front-line medic? The latter seems to me a far more humanitarian and effective way to reject taking up arms.

Meanwhile, the Dunedin academics’ move to put a memorial garden to Baxter amid memorials to World War 1 soldiers is provocative. Baxter may merit a memorial, but surely not there. No wonder the Dunedin RSA is upset.

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/304771/archibald-baxter-memorial-plan-causes-consternation
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June 5, 2014 1:27pm
cha

Too funny – people who accused Obama of abandoning Bergdahl the hero changing their tune and deciding Bergdahl is a traitor.

https://twitter.com/MattBinder
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June 5, 2014 1:27pm
Jack5

Cha, Obama fucked up on Bergdahl. We bring our heroes home, yeah.
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June 5, 2014 1:33pm
cha

This is getting funnier by the hour.

https://twitter.com/Thinking_Helps/statuses/474355691063607296
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June 5, 2014 1:36pm
Ed Snack

Stephieboy, you really, really, need to learn to read boyo. You have this strange fixation with me as birther, something I don’t subscribe to at all. That should be clear from my posts on the subject !

But you seem to be in some sort of denial loop. The whole birtherism meme started with the Clinton campaign, and I provided sources. There were for some time possible if not terribly credible reasons to be able to assert that *maybe* Obama wasn’t qualified under the constitutional rules, to be president. Those possible doubts were effectively utterly squashed by the release of the long form birth certificate and the attestation of its authenticity in 2012.

However the majority of the decisions (and just for your info, the Alabama State Supreme Court is not SCOTUS) like the Alabama one above have not ruled on any evidence at all, in all the cases I know of the courts have ruled that nobody has any standing to bring an action, hence the courts simply reject the case without hearing anything of substance. So there’s been no court determined ruling on Obama’s eligibility; only rulings that so far, no-one can challenge that eligibility, which is rather a different thing. Not, mind you, I think that if a court did hear such a case that they would be at all likely to find him ineligible.

I also opined that I find credible the suggestion that Obama left the details of his eligibility deliberately slightly obscure as a tactical device; and in general that worked. It proved something of a lightening rod for kooks mostly, but it did snare Donald Trump.

As for Obama being the anti-christ or some other fanciful notion, bejesus are you scraping the barrell now. Why not just claim I dislike because he’s “black” and label me a racist with it ?

Nope, I dislike him because he’s a genuine A grade phony, and incompetent narcissist who imagines himself to be “the most intelligent man in the room”, as a consequence he’s caused serious damage to the US economy and its political standing. He’s also well versed in the “Chicago way”, a political school that believes that no action is illegal or impermissible if you use it for personal political gain and you are able to keep it from become generally known. Thus crooks who raise money for the democrats are left unprosecuted, to the detriment of the rule of law and natural justice. He’s become part of the 1% and promotes their interests at the expense of those who vote for him, secure in the knowledge that like you, Stephieboy, they’re so trapped by their biases that they are blind to the real impact of his administrations incompetence.

Obama ranks to me as probably the worst US president ever. Worse than Carter, Nixon, Bush II, and all those others I’ve been around to observe.

However Obama is good at one thing, campaigning. He and his team are undoubtedly an A grade campaigning machine.

Apologies to other readers of Kiwiblog for one more “Birther” redux, courtesy of Stephie.
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June 5, 2014 1:37pm
Paulus

I can only hope that Team New Zealand abstains from any further participation in the so called Americas Cup.
As expected the new US rules are entirely slanted towards Oracle, and any US team.
This is normal US practice in many walks of business.
Having once worked for 5 years for a large group of US financial organisations there is only one rule – if the rules are not in our favour get them changed – our Lawyers will see to it.
As a very small financial supporter in previous cups challenges I am now financially and morally out of any support of this fiasco.
I will be very disappointed if any of my tax money is put to supporting TNZ.
Typical US practice, and I have seen a lot of it in the past.
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June 5, 2014 1:44pm
mike tan

The IP has floated the idea of decriminalization of cannabis in one of its feedback platforms. I think that this may be an issue that could increase the voter turnout and appeal to youths. Decriminalization would conform with a socially liberal ideology (and for this reason, i think libertarian parties like ACT should back it).
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June 5, 2014 2:03pm
Peter

Seen the latest Roy Morgan?

http://www.roymorgan.com/morganpoll/new-zealand/voting-intention-summary
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June 5, 2014 2:13pm
kowtow

Mike Tan

Drop kick young dope heads don’t vote.They’re not even registered.So it won’t increase turnout.Anyway the water melons have that covered so at most it will cannibalize them, which would be good.
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June 5, 2014 2:21pm
ciaron

I can only hope that Team New Zealand abstains from any further participation in the so called Americas Cup.
As expected the new US rules are entirely slanted towards Oracle, and any US team.

It has ever been thus, ever heard the saying Britannia rules the waves, but America waives the rules?
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June 5, 2014 2:22pm
goldnkiwi

Scalp to Dotcom
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June 5, 2014 2:25pm
Colville

Yip Banks guilty.
I didnt expect that.
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June 5, 2014 2:26pm
ross411

Paulus (2,395 comments) says:
June 5th, 2014 at 10:41 am
I see that TVNZ are advertising for people to tell them what they want to hear.
Blatant Electioneering as we will see –
This is not what TVNZ are for and should try and report the news not make it.
But what can you expect from them

I was watching One News last night, and I think Shane Jones came on. The editorialising voice said something along the lines of “National invented a position for him, to undermine Labour”. Perhaps it wasn’t those exact words, but it was close. It wasn’t framed as what Labour accused them of, but rather that that was exactly what they did. This was terrible quality reporting, and should not feature in a news show. I have no idea if National invented the position, but I don’t feel like TVNZ can claim they did and prove it.

The only thing worse was when Collins outed the reporter who tried to get her to do a favour, and the news community went feral. I made the mistake of watching Three News that night, and whomever was doing the voice over basically said all sorts of nonsense like how she puts on an act, and so forth. The voice over went for perhaps 30 seconds, punishing her for singling out one of their own. Terribly unprofessional.

And I only watch the news maybe twice a month! I have to wonder what’s going on.
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June 5, 2014 2:32pm
ross411

Peter (1,531 comments) says:
June 5th, 2014 at 2:13 pm
Seen the latest Roy Morgan?

http://www.roymorgan.com/morganpoll/new-zealand/voting-intention-summary

National gain at expense of NZ First, Greens and Internet Party. Well, let’s hope it’s representative.
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June 5, 2014 2:38pm
goldnkiwi

I hope Banks appeals the decision.
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June 5, 2014 2:45pm
cricko

Hi stephieboy,
maybe i should have made my 11.27 effort clearer.

Doss was a noncombatant who served as a medic and was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honour
in recognition of his bravery despite refusing to carry arms because of his religious convictions.

There is a world of difference between Doss and Baxter.

Doss was also honoured in several ways in his home town and rightly so.

The same cannot be said of Baxter. There is no honour in what Baxter did at all.
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June 5, 2014 2:53pm
Pete George

A significant lift for National in the latest Roy Mrogan poll. Labour is still struggling to impress but more surprising is Greens dropping to their lowest support since September 2011 )before the last election).

National 52.5% (+7)
Labour 29% (-1.5)
Greens 9% (-4.5)
NZFirst 4.5% (-1.5)
Maori Party 1.5% (+0.5)
Conservatives 1% (no change)
Act 1% (+0.5)
Mana 0.5% (-0.5)
Internet 0.5% (no change)
United Future 0% (no change)

Mana and the Internet Party are still shown as separate parties and haven’t made any inroads.
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June 5, 2014 2:54pm
kowtow

……..Greens drop. Surprising ? Delightful.
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June 5, 2014 2:58pm
kowtow

In other good election news.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/06/bashar-al-assad-re-elected-syrian-president-20146419457810751.html

Now if only Obummer, Camoron and Hollandaise would butt out of Assads affairs.
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June 5, 2014 3:01pm
stephieboy

Ed Snack, yes there was an attempt by supporters of the Clinton faction in the 2008 Presidential Primaries to raise questions about Obama’s birth credentials but they failed naturally to make it stick. As the link bellow shows ( useful summary ) the claims actually went beyond that with the smear that he was a “crypto -Muslim “back in 2004.
But the facts are it was t the deluded Birther movement and the likes of you that took the matter much , much further giving it a life of its own.But as the article concludes more reasoned and saner Republicans observe, “it makes us look sick , troubled.. demented and not suitable for civilized company”
I
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0411/53563.html

In terms of the fiasco of Birther courts actions the facts ,legal or otherwise,speak volumes as this learned judge clearly shows, in respect of the worthlessness of the Birters case against the President.,

http://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=File:Court_ruling_regarding_case_against_Obama.pdf&oldid=578041

It maybe that the President is the very worse one in US history. That is a matter of mere opinion and debate.But it has to be said no President has come under such intense critical scrutiny at every move . at every turn.But however he is judged ,historically or politically ,its my view that that he will be absolved from the bunk and baseless claims by the bankrupt Birthers with their abysmal trail of failed and worthless suits and petitions eetc.

Birtherism is a movement that has snowballed, captured by a vexatious , paranoid and petulant far right , who simply can’t stand the thought of a black man being their head of state.

That is the nub of it . Nothing but the truth and the whole truth so help me God.!
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June 5, 2014 3:11pm
stephieboy

kowtow , the so called ‘elections” were held only in areas under Assad’s control and conducted, I understand, under his direct supervision.
Any opposing candidates .? I don’t think so.
it will be a propaganda victory of sorts as is the case with Dictatorships.
cricko read my links and especially Baxter’s book. I think if you do you’ll think differently of him.
The two cases are not comparable. Different war, time and place.
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June 5, 2014 3:24pm
Fletch

I still don’t believe the long form birth certificate that Obama released is the real deal. It had been cobbled together in Adobe Illustrator, for sure. If they’d just released a .jpg, maybe people would have considered it, but the PDF with multiple layers with editable sections being able to be turned on and off – I don’t believe it, to be honest.

Whether or not that makes him eligible or ineligible is a point of debate. The real question is why release such an obvious fake? And why hide documents to do with his past – including school and college records, etc etc? The guy paid a lot of money to hide his past – the real question is why?
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June 5, 2014 3:53pm
Fletch

As far as the Bergdahl thing, it kind of reminds me of the movie Wag The Dog and the campaign to free prisoner-of-war Willy Schumann (to divert attention away from another White House scandal). There is no such person of course, so they get someone in to play the part Schumann who turns out to be a psychotic nutcase (played in the movie by Woody Harrelson) who ends up being killed before he can be “brought home”.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v4ZLwevXAI

The Bergdahl thing has backfired in a major way as well. The Obama Admin thought it would be a HUGE PR coup, but it didn’t turn out that way – and they were shocked that it didn’t.

http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/chuck-todd-white-house-stunned-negative-reaction-taliban-deal
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June 5, 2014 4:04pm
cha

The Bergdahl thing has backfired in a major way as well

Shouldn’t we wait until one of the released detainees is implicated in an act of terror.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/former-guantanamo-detainee-implicated-in-benghazi-attack/2014/01/07/c73fdf78-77d5-11e3-8963-b4b654bcc9b2_story.html

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BpUJXIcIcAAhRCO.jpg:large
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June 5, 2014 4:41pm
wikiriwhis business

Gwyneth Paltrow: Yelling at water hurts its feelings

In her lifestyle newsletter, Paltrow wrote about her fascination with the power of words and energy.

She cited a study into the energy of words by Japanese scientist Masuru Emoto that involved speaking, yelling and playing music to water to discover if it had any molecular impact.

“In his experiments, Emoto poured pure water into vials labelled with negative phrases like ‘I hate you’ or ‘fear’. After 24 hours, the water was frozen, and no longer crystallised under the microscope: It yielded grey, misshapen clumps instead of beautiful lace-like crystals.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/celebrities/10123082/Gwyneth-Paltrow-Yelling-at-water-hurts-its-feelings

Make of this what you will. Maybe we can scare the rain away this winter with a national bark at the sky to freeze the clouds.
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June 5, 2014 4:43pm
Lucia Maria

For everyone who was concerned about the steak last night, it turned out perfectly done.

It’s slow cooked beef sausages in a red wine and pepper broth tonight, with mashed potatoes and vegetables. Already delivered some of it to a family that’s just had a baby. Hope they like it!
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June 5, 2014 6:52pm
mikenmild

We’re having fish!
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June 5, 2014 6:54pm
Lucia Maria

And it’s not even Friday, Mike! Not that you’d be limited in such a way of course, but fish and Friday go together for me.
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June 5, 2014 7:05pm
cha

Corned beef with carrots, mashed spuddies and brussel sprouts with proper Edmond’s cookbook mustard sauce!.
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June 5, 2014 7:06pm
thedavincimode

Corned beef with carrots, mashed spuddies and brussel sprouts with proper Edmond’s cookbook mustard sauce!.

[quiver font] Food porn. That sauce … uuhhh.
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June 5, 2014 7:10pm
Lucia Maria

LOL, Davinci!

Sounds great, Cha.

I actually have that Edmunds cookbook. I saw it on sale a few years back and just had to get it. I’ve even made a couple of things out it, but the only thing I remember is carrots and parsnips in a honey and butter sauce. Maybe lemon juice as well.
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June 5, 2014 7:13pm
Steve (North Shore)

Eco Greens.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bjnlmdidf450p05/grass%20is%20greener.jpg
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June 5, 2014 7:17pm
wikiriwhis business

According to MSN, the Columbia City Council unanimously approved the plan, creating special police patrols, that would enforce “quality of life” laws, involving loitering, public urination, and other crimes not necessarily restricted to the homeless population.

Those officers would then offer the homeless a choice:

Go to jail for their homelessness or be shuffled to a 240-bed, 24-hour shelter on the outskirts of town, which they wouldn’t be allowed to easily leave.
According to the Activist Post, the Columbia South Carolina plan is already complete with an urgent Emergency Homeless Response report. And that report includes information about hauling the homeless away in transport vans to an already stationed shelter with workers, phone number for townspeople to report “the person in need,” an officer stationed to control foot traffic, public feeding moved there, more foot patrol officers for the city to keep out the homeless. Oh, and the homeless can’t walk off the premises!

If they want to leave, they must get permission, set up an appointment and be shuttled by a transport van. A patrolman will guard the road leading in to make sure homeless don’t wander off downtown.

Ex-prisoners will be shuttled there unless someone picks them up from the county jail. No foot traffic allowed, only shuttle van arrival. The plan is a city plan and not a federal government plan.

But this is not the only area making it a crime for being homeless. It turns out that since 2011, the city of Boston is moving its homeless out of the city into what they call “Home Base”, near Salem, away from the city. People in Southern California, were getting concerned from homeless disappearing off the streets.

Most of the homeless in places like Sacramento, are taken and driven out of town in tent cities of their own. They have made it a crime to be homeless, and round them up and move them there. They are guarded, and people have hotlines to call if they spot a homeless person. They ship them out and place them in these camps. They are not permitted to leave, and they are not permitted to wander the streets of the bigger cities without a permit. If that is not a determent camp, I don’t know what is.

They are moving to make it a crime to be homeless in Miami as well. Where are they putting the people from these “round ups”?

This is almost like the 19 40’s rounding up of the undesirables, happening right before our very eyes. The only thing different is, that this is the United States, and not Germany.

Now we have the cutting of EBT, and Food Banks by 5 Billion. Unemployment continuing to sky rocket, and over 3.5 million homeless with the numbers growing daily. We have 18.5 million vacant homes, and homes in Detroit, that are being sold for a dollar, but we can’t find places to house people other then FEMA camps? I think we all know what happens from here, if we continue to let it.

When the people of bigger cities wake up to find that all the homeless have disappeared over night, you actually know where they are. The question is, are you next?

In closing, I want to remind you all that there are 3.5 million homeless in the US, and 18.5 million vacant homes. So, can anyone tell me why do we keep voting, if politicians can never fix any of the real problems of our society? This system is corrupt and obsolete, and it has to go!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGYIXsIevGI
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June 5, 2014 7:24pm
Viking2

Paddy and Colleen were making passionate love in Paddy’s minivan when suddenly Colleen, being a bit on the kinky side, yells out, “Oh big boy, whip me, whip me!”

Paddy, not wanting to pass up this unique opportunity, obviously did not have any whips on hand, but in a flash of inspiration, he opens the window, snaps the antenna off his van and proceeds to whip Colleen until they both collapse in ecstasy.

About a week later, Colleen notices that the marks left by the whipping are starting to fester a bit so she goes to the doctor. The doctor takes one look at the wounds and asks, “Did you get these marks having sex?”

Colleen, a little embarrassed that she has slept with Paddy (let alone that she allowed the kinky boy to whip her) eventually admits that, yes, she did.

Nodding his head knowingly, the doctor exclaims, “I thought so, because in all my years as a doctor, you’ve got the worst case of van aerial disease that I’ve ever seen!!!!.”

😆 😆
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June 5, 2014 7:52pm
nasska

Two mothers are having a conversation about their children
one day.

“How do you get your Marvin up so early on school mornings?”
asks Joan.

“Oh, that’s easy,” replies Marianne. “I just throw the cat
on his bed.”

“Why does that wake him up?”

“He sleeps with the dog!”
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June 5, 2014 8:00pm
Viking2

Next these foodies will be turning GD into a FB page.
Still better than warming muslims and skyfairy wars.
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June 5, 2014 8:01pm
SGA

Viking2 at 8:01 pm
The missing comma in your last sentence threw me for a second 🙂
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June 5, 2014 9:23pm
Left Right and Centre

A fly just landed on the top middle of my keyboard right above the F7 key. For two-three seconds I sat thinking look at this little fuckwit and then annihilated said fuckwit with a tissue.

I’ve been waiting a long long time to be able to kill a fly for the cost of zero effort. Flies owe me a few zero effort kills after all they’ve ever put me through. Fuck me – didn’t even have to stretch or change body position or sitting position – one small arm movement and it just stayed still there waiting obediently to be terminated. There’s a good insect. Even for a fly that’s dumb. This is my theory – they only live a short time and that was probably an ‘old age’ fly that can’t fly much or do anything anymore – like a lot of old people. Old people where the last thing to stop working is their vocal chords and the ability to call a phone number, sit patiently for 20-40 minutes waiting and talk cluelessly over a talkback host for 30-60 seconds while I sit at home dreaming of putting them out of their misery with a special giant tea towel swatter.
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June 6, 2014 4:14am
Left Right and Centre

Lucy – it’s an iconic kiwi name – it’s Edmonds. Not ‘Edmunds’. How on earth does someone get that wrong, huh ? Edmonds mate. Edmonds. With an o.

Oh well – I suppose Lucy also supports the ‘Ill Blacks’, likes ‘busy bees’ and enjoys an ice cold ‘P&Q’.

cha got it right and you read that comment. Weird.
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June 6, 2014 6:47am
nasska

….”while I sit at home dreaming of putting them out of their misery with a special giant tea towel swatter.”…..

Come September you’ll be able to identify the geriatric fools. They’ll be lined up at the Tardis stop wearing girly light blue rosettes, eagerly waiting their trip back in time to the halcyon 50’s. 🙂
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June 6, 2014 7:58am
noskire

So, if Labour/Greens/Internet/Mana cobble together a Government at this year’s election, will New Zealand be a representative democracy, or an oligarchy?
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June 6, 2014 8:22pm

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