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June 4, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 4 June 2014

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Fletch

As Fletch rabbits on about gays and associated hysteria lets not forget the Magdalene Asylum system appropriated by the Catholic Church in Ireland that saw thousands of female victims subject to verbal, physical and sexual abuse,

OK, but for the small fact that it isn’t true, according to a report commissioned by the Irish Government.

The publication last week of the Irish government’s McAleese Report on the Magdalene laundries has proved kind of awkward for Catholic-bashers. For if McAleese’s thorough, 1,000-page study is to be believed, then it would appear that those laundries were not as evil and foul as they had been depicted over the past decade. Specifically the image of the laundries promoted by the popular, much-lauded film The Magdalene Sisters – which showed them as places where women were stripped, slapped, sexually abused and more – has been called into question by McAleese. This has led even The Irish Times, which never turns down an opportunity to wring its hands over Catholic wickedness, to say: “There is no escaping the fact that the [McAleese] report jars with popular perceptions.”

In the Irish mind, and in the minds of everyone else who has seen or read one of the many films, plays and books about the Magdalene laundries, these were horrific institutions brimming with violence and overseen by sadistic, pervy nuns. Yet the McAleese Report found not a single incident of sexual abuse by a nun in a Magdalene laundry. Not one. Also, the vast majority of its interviewees said they were never physically punished in the laundries.

As one woman said, “It has shocked me to read in papers that we were beat and our heads shaved and that we were badly treated by the nuns… I was not touched by any nun and I never saw anyone touched.” The small number of cases of corporal punishment reported to McAleese consisted of the kind of thing that happened in many normal schools in the 1960s, 70s and 80s: being caned on the legs or rapped on the knuckles. The authors of the McAleese Report, having like the rest of us imbibed the popular image of the Magdalene laundries as nun-run concentration camps, seem to have been taken aback by “the number of women who spoke positively about the nuns”.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100202781/catholic-bashers-have-embellished-the-truth-about-abuse-in-catholic-institutions-its-time-to-put-the-record-straight/
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June 4, 2014 1:21pm
stephieboy

Fletch , so the compensation payout settlement agreed to by the Dail and the Catholic church of €1.3bn to child abuse victims is somehow illusory made under false pretenses.?,

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/jan/01/childprotection.children
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June 4, 2014 1:33pm
Ryan Sproull

I’m addressing someone who turns his back on those demanding state power to enforce their own beliefs and who starts asking their targets whether they’re not exactly like the racists of yesteryear.

I was curious as to whether Fletch was defending religious freedom or was opposing something that happened to be at odds with his own religious beliefs.

I think that Fletch is opposed to racial discrimination, so I picked that as a hypothetical that would most effectively contrast any support for religious freedom against someone’s right to do something he doesn’t support (stand against interracial marriage), rather than a situation where a stand for religious freedom coincides with a stand for his own religious views.
(stand against same-sex marriage).
This is a forum for discussion, Tom. If you’re not hopping on a plane to the US to stand in solidarity with this baker, then you’re doing no more than I am: agreeing here in this forum that he should be free from the state to refuse to do something that’s at odds with his religious beliefs.
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June 4, 2014 1:36pm
Ross12

This Greenpeace guy thinks the Oil & Gas industry should be banned in NZ. I have a better idea –I think Greenpeace should be banned

https://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/24130660/frack-and-drill-report-reveals-cowboy-approach/
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June 4, 2014 1:39pm
tom hunter

This is a forum for discussion,
Discussions are not helped by using the standard tactic of many leftists in this debate, which is to ask a question that implies that your opposing debater is no better than a racist.
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June 4, 2014 1:41pm
mikenmild

Didn’t believe Ryan’s explanation?
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June 4, 2014 1:45pm
Ryan Sproull

Discussions are not helped by using the standard tactic of many leftists in this debate, which is to ask a question that implies that your opposing debater is no better than a racist.

What would you have picked, in order to test his commitment to religious freedom?

A polygamous wedding cake? He opposes polygamy.

A child bride wedding cake? He opposes paedophilia.

An abortion celebration cake, as he suggested? He opposes abortion.

Someone’s right to refuse to bake a wedding cake for an interracial marriage on religious grounds is the most stark example of something that is A) believable; B) an instance of religious freedom; and C) something that Fletch does not support.

You’ll note that he has answered that he would oppose the state forcing someone to bake such a cake in such a situation, demonstrating that he supports religious freedom even when it’s the freedom to do something he personally opposes.
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June 4, 2014 1:47pm
Albert_Ross

Does freedom from being forced to do something by the state only apply to activities that an individual objects to on religious grounds? What about an atheist baker who didn’t like gays, for example, should they be allowed to refuse to bake a cake to celebrate a gay marriage, or would they only be allowed to do that if they could show that they were a practicing religious and that their objection to gay marriage derived from their religion?
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June 4, 2014 1:50pm
stephieboy

tom hunter,

does not some of the problems and confusion stem from the fact that Libertarians like you and Ron Paul argue that statutes against racial discrimination and racism infringe your personal liberties ,

Point 4 from the link below,

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/darren-hutchinson/five-reasons-why-ron-paul_b_947004.html
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June 4, 2014 1:50pm
Ryan Sproull

Does freedom from being forced to do something by the state only apply to activities that an individual objects to on religious grounds? What about an atheist baker who didn’t like gays, for example, should they be allowed to refuse to bake a cake to celebrate a gay marriage, or would they only be allowed to do that if they could show that they were a practicing religious and that their objection to gay marriage derived from their religion?

For me, freedom from being forced to do something by the state does not apply only to religious grounds, but religious grounds are the most stark examples of it because of how passionately those values are held by individuals.
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June 4, 2014 1:56pm
tom hunter

does not some of the problems and confusion stem from the fact that Libertarians like you and Ron Paul argue that statutes against racial discrimination and racism infringe your personal liberties

See what I mean Ryan!

And anarchists too stephieboy:

Read up, Tom. I don’t think the state should compel people to bake same-sex or interracial wedding cakes against their religious beliefs.

Raaaacist, raaacist, raaacist. 😉
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June 4, 2014 2:09pm
Ryan Sproull

See what I mean Ryan!

Yes. Well, there are two possible explanations.

The first is that people like Stephieboy genuinely believe that anyone who supports someone’s freedom to be racist is themselves racist. They’re wrong about that, but it’s understandable, especially given that actual racists also support people’s freedom to be racist.

The second is that people like Stephieboy know that you’re not racist, but because they support in principle the use of state power to punish racism and you do not, they opt for tarring your views with the Racist brush in an attempt to undermine your position without addressing it head on.
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June 4, 2014 2:19pm
tom hunter

I suspect the latter Ryan – but somehow I doubt the likes of Stephieboy will ever be stalking you through this blog!!
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June 4, 2014 2:22pm
cricko

How much more news like this do we need to read before we all wake up to
the fact that importing more and more muslims into New Zealand is insanity ?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10118134/Killed-terrorists-radicalised-in-Christchurch

Can someone/anyone complete this sentence, and explain where i have got this wrong.

“muslim immigrants are good for New Zealand because…………”
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June 4, 2014 2:25pm
Fletch

stephie, that has nothing to do with the laundries.
You’re confusing different things now.
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June 4, 2014 2:26pm
mikenmild

…because we refuse to discriminate against immigrants on the basis of religion?
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June 4, 2014 2:27pm
Grant

Can anyone think of something that has happened at least twenty times today that taxpayers paid for?
G
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June 4, 2014 2:34pm
Ryan Sproull

There’s a thought.

How many Kiwis have been killed by British and Australian immigrants driving drunk?
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June 4, 2014 2:35pm
cricko

Thanks for trying mikenmild,
however, your thinking is a little skewed up. Your answer does not address the question at all.
Surely you can do better than that. Try again.

How does the fact that currently we refuse to discriminate on the basis of religion explain why muslim
immigrants are good for New Zealand ?
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June 4, 2014 2:37pm
mikenmild

It illustrates that you have it all backwards. We can exclude people from immigrating here if there are security concerns. So the question that needs to be asked is what criteria we apply in making such decisions. My contention is that it is not so straightforward as identifying an immigrant’s religion.
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June 4, 2014 2:40pm
Ryan Sproull

How does the fact that currently we refuse to dicriminate on the basis of religion explain why muslim
immigrants are good for New Zealand ?

Because the alternative would be to discriminate based on religion, and therefore throw out one of the essential principles of democracy?
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June 4, 2014 2:40pm
Grant

Make that at least 21 times today.
G
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June 4, 2014 2:41pm
Viking2

Can’t email this for captions but be funny .

http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1401752265/737/10113737.jpg

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/local-papers/hutt-news/10113734/What-a-day-for-a-hill-climb
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June 4, 2014 2:48pm
wikiriwhis business

“Fletch , so the compensation payout settlement agreed to by the Dail and the Catholic church of €1.3bn to child abuse victims is somehow illusory made under false pretenses.?,”

800 children found buried in septic tank in Ireland

In a town in western Ireland, where castle ruins pepper green landscapes, there’s a six-foot stone wall that once surrounded a place called The Home. Between 1925 and 1961, thousands of “fallen women” and their “illegitimate” children passed through The Home, run by the Bon Secours nuns in Tuam.

Many of the women, after paying a penance of indentured servitude for their out-of-wedlock pregnancy, left The Home for work and lives in other parts of Ireland and beyond. Some of their children were not so fortunate.

More than five decades after The Home was closed and destroyed – where a housing development and children’s playground now stands – what happened to nearly 800 of those abandoned children has now emerged: Their bodies were piled into a massive septic tank sitting in the back of the structure and forgotten, with neither gravestones nor coffins.

“The bones are still there,” local historian Catherine Corless, who uncovered the origins of the mass grave in a batch of never-before-released documents, told The Washington Post in a phone interview. “The children who died in The Home, this was them.”
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/10117345/800-children-found-buried-in-septic-tank-in-Ireland

The horrors of Catholicism. Not to mention the Spainish Inquisition.
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June 4, 2014 2:51pm
wikiriwhis business

“wiki, why we shouldn’t take the ravings and rants of Christopher Greene of amtv too seriously,”

We can certainly take Big Brother very seriously. The list of the state surveillance syndrome is endless.

From space to the cities to the streets and state surveillance laws of the Patriot Act.

Homeland Security is in fact a term borrowed from Nazi Germany.
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June 4, 2014 2:57pm
Lucia Maria

wikiriwhis business,

There a number of comments already made today addressing the story that you have re-posted at 2:51, in particular one by Kowtow. I suggest going back and reading them.
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June 4, 2014 2:57pm
stephieboy

wiki, well i for one do not take Christopher Greene’s raves and ramblings seriously, notable of more recent times, Flight 370 the biggest conspiracy since 9/11.
Yes by all means lets take the dangers of the surveillance state and big bother etc seriously but that it needs to be based on reasoned and rational analysis , not speculative conspiracy theories.
“Homeland Security is in fact a term borrowed from Nazi Germany.” ??
Document the that please.?
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June 4, 2014 3:06pm
mikenmild

Yes Lucia, kowtow’s apologia which essentially read ‘but abortion is so much worse’.
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June 4, 2014 3:08pm
kowtow

milky

It’s called context you daft twat.
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June 4, 2014 3:11pm
mikenmild

Yes, and your ‘context’ was to wail about something completely different.
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June 4, 2014 3:18pm
kowtow

You really are a twat.

You pretended you cared about callous disposal. I posed the question of disposal of unwanted today, as opposed to 60 years ago.Not a wail and not completly different.

“For as long as they have existed ,orphanages have always had alarmingly high death rates”. There is nothing unusual in the case of Tuam that you ,and your anti Catholic band wagon mates have jumped on.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/20/russia-orphanage-adopt-children-opinions-columnists-medialand.html
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June 4, 2014 3:31pm
mikenmild

Was there really nothing unusual about the orphanage dumping corpses in an old septic tank?
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June 4, 2014 3:36pm
kowtow

Covered that already, twat.
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June 4, 2014 3:39pm
mikenmild

Would that be the bit where you compared the septic tank to a catacomb? Nice ‘context’ that. Made it sound like the bodies were reverently put to rest.
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June 4, 2014 3:44pm
Odakyu-sen

“The horrors of Catholicism.”

In a tough, unforgiving environment, there are going to be casualties. That’s the price you pay for a society with a clearly defined code of what is right and what is wrong; a good heaping of “shame,” and without a welfare net or support for single mothers.

To play the Devils advocate, how would the numbers of single mothers and their children have grown in the 40-odd years from 1926 to 1961 if Ireland had had a welfare safety net? Would there have been 100,000 more children in solo-parent families drawing off the state? (Look how the welfare roles in NZ grew since the 1970s).

Although fear of the consequences without a social safety net will cause the smarter ones to fall into line, the misfortunate, hopeless, stupid and feckless will still conceive out of wedlock. In the grim years from the 20s to the 60s in Ireland, these children were cast on the scrapheap. But how many births more would have been encouraged under a NZ-style welfare scheme?

That’s the thing. Personal responsibility is fine and dandy if you can do it, but some people just can’t. What is the humane way to deal with those who simply cannot be responsible? The Irish example is one end of the spectrum.
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June 4, 2014 3:48pm
kowtow

No one knows exactly how the bodies were put out to rest yet.

Given the Ireland of it’s time ,and as the DM story relates the child will have been placed in a burial shroud and I have no doubt some care will have been taken.

But they won’t have been “dumped in an old septic tank” as you so disparaging and dishonestly put it.But that’s the angle you insist on because you are a trolling piece of leftist shit.
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June 4, 2014 3:52pm
Nukuleka

I know no-one much is interested in my personal dealings with Christchurch Libraries BUT I am reporting that I received a reply to my email enquiry about why they celebrate Matariki but don’t much celebrate Christmas and ignore Easter.

It seems that they have an OBLIGATION under THE TREATY OF WAITANGI to celebrate Matariki (my library correspondent actually spelt it ‘Martariki’ which under the circumstances I thought rather fun.) She implied that it actually said they had to in THE TREATY!! (Go on, I dare anyone to hunt through THE TREATY and see if they can find the magic word ‘Matariki’)

Funny that most of us grew up never having heard of this mythical New Year celebration. The media and Christchurch City Libraries are determined to put that right, however.
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June 4, 2014 3:52pm
kowtow

It wasn’t a scrap heap. They were there pending adoption or fostering. Many other countries were similar.And had similar stigma around illigitimacy.

And ody, not too many countries had “advanced” welfare systems around that time either.Great depression ,WW2 etc.
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June 4, 2014 3:56pm
Nukuleka

There’s more to this story than meet the naked eye! Usual MSM anti Catholic beat-up. Come on, if Catholic nuns were involved they would have eaten the babies and not buried them in a septic tank.
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June 4, 2014 4:04pm
kowtow

nukeleka

I’m interested ,and good on you for taking the arseholes to task. There aren’t enough concerned citizens like yourself around to force these rates wasters to their senses.Keep at the bastards.
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June 4, 2014 4:06pm
kowtow

nuku

Nuns?They’d have thrown the children onto a fire using pitch forks personally blessed by the Satan of Rome!
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June 4, 2014 4:08pm
cricko

Ryan Sproull thanks for having a try too.

Sadly, you fell at the same point mikenmild did, you failed to address the question.

Shall we try another question, maybe this will help you focus.

“muslim immigration has proved to be a success in………….”

Insert name of any western country, if you can.

( i could have added, ‘ because’ after …………but i’m not even being that tough on you.)

Just the name of a country will be fine.

Or, if that is too hard for you, try to complete this,

“New Zealands experience with muslim immigrants will be different than any other western country because…….”

Not just Ryan, anyone can have a go.
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June 4, 2014 4:11pm
Odakyu-sen

“And ody, not too many countries had “advanced” welfare systems around that time”

I hear that the National Socialist German Workers’ Party had a pretty comprehensive welfare program in the 30s.
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June 4, 2014 4:15pm
Pete George

This headline could be a bit unfair: Cricket: Black Caps batting contenders fail to impress

Read through to the last paragraph:

The three contenders to open the batting for the Black Caps have failed to make an impression in New Zealand’s final warm-up match ahead of the first test against the West Indies.

Peter Fulton, Tom Latham and Hamish Rutherford have scored two, eight and 10 respectively in the second innings of the three-day match against a Jamaican XI in Trelawny.

New Zealand’s struggling at 65 for seven at stumps on day two, an overall lead of 146 runs.

A new pitch will be used for the final day’s play, with the previous pitch deemed too dangerous.

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/853604769-cricket–black-caps-batting-contenders-fail-to-impress
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June 4, 2014 4:25pm
Ryan Sproull

Ryan Sproull thanks for having a try too.

Sadly, you fell at the same point mikenmild did, you failed to address the question.

No, I didn’t. You’re asking us to evaluate the outcomes of banning or not banning the immigration of Muslims to New Zealand as positive or negative, and to explain what would be positive about not banning Muslim immigration.

My answer remains: the positive outcome of not banning Muslim immigration is that New Zealand gets to continue to be a democracy, rather than some other kind of state that does not respect freedom of religion.

What do you think is so great about getting rid of democracy?
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June 4, 2014 4:38pm
Lucia Maria

Ryan,

Banning Muslim immigration would not stop us from being a democracy. However, I agree with you that we should not ban Muslim immigration. A couple of days ago I ago I had a conversation about what I would do instead, which is to make it difficult to be a ratbag Muslim here, and give precedence to refugees who are persecuted religious minorities from Islamic countries.

But, not banning Muslim immigration might lead to the type of situation that has just been experienced in London, a story posted here by someone (I can’t remember who, either Kowtow or Hj), namely Stolen election in the heart of London. Now, that’s how you get rid of democracy – fake the votes and keep counting until you get the results you want!
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June 4, 2014 5:14pm
mikenmild

Ideally, we should make it difficult to be any kind of a ratbag here, but I suppose we could start with specific religions if you really want.
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June 4, 2014 5:17pm
Albert_Ross

Would it be fair to say that Ryan Sproull’s position is that the risk of importing undesirable terrorist-advocating activity is a price worth paying to remain a democratic freedom-respecting state?

Alternatively put, that the cost of banning immigration by Muslims – that New Zealand ceases to be a democratic freedom-respecting state, and denies itself access to a pool of talented, well qualified and hard working people (for the Muslim community does include such) – is too great to justify the benefit – that a small risk is reduced to a very small risk?
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June 4, 2014 5:17pm
Albert_Ross

Why would we start with specific religions? Ratbags should be pursued and dealt with (if they’re here) and not let in if they want to come here, non-ratbags who meet the immigration criteria should be welcomed and left to go about their business. Why would you bring religion into that?
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June 4, 2014 5:21pm
Ryan Sproull

Would it be fair to say that Ryan Sproull’s position is that the risk of importing undesirable terrorist-advocating activity is a price worth paying to remain a democratic freedom-respecting state?

I would consider that fair to say, Albert.

Why would we start with specific religions? Ratbags should be pursued and dealt with (if they’re here) and not let in if they want to come here, non-ratbags who meet the immigration criteria should be welcomed and left to go about their business. Why would you bring religion into that?

Hell, why start with immigration? Let’s sterilise anyone who looks like they might raise kids who drink and drive, if we’re serious about protecting ourselves from credible threats.
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June 4, 2014 5:26pm
Longknives

A Sad Day for Rock….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7kYVjL2lps
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June 4, 2014 5:29pm
publicwatchdog

Justice Wylie to give his verdict on the John Banks electoral fraud case tomorrow, Thursday 5 June 2014 in the Auckland High Court at 2.15pm.

Will ‘justice be done and be seen to be done’?

We shall see ………

Penny Bright
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June 4, 2014 5:30pm
stigie

When is the Auction Penny ?
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June 4, 2014 5:35pm
Elaycee

More bad news for the current tenant at Coatesville today, with the news four Music studios have joined the legal action against him. Reports named the four studios as Warner Music Group, UMG Recordings, Sony Music Entertainment and Capital Records.

Unlucky.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/60089586/music-studios-join-dotcom-fight.html
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June 4, 2014 5:37pm
RightNow

Gee Penny, with Dotcom, his wife and his accountant all telling different versions of their stories I’m not sure the outcome you’re hoping for is “justice”. What a shame you couldn’t just throw Banks in the river and find him guilty if he didn’t drown.
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June 4, 2014 6:00pm
nasska

….”It wasn’t a scrap heap. They were there pending adoption or fostering”…..

If they survived the care of the Church. You might have passed over the part of the Daily Mail article that mentioned the “neglect” of the orphans. Regardless of the austerity of the time the physical & emotional neglect of a toddler is about as low as the human species goes.

And just in case you find a way to worm your wretched church out of the “Tuam” instance have a read of: http://netk.net.au/AbuseCases/GoodwoodTracey.asp

Then if you still don’t get it try Googling “acts of cruelty by nuns”……when I did it produced 50,500,000 hits.
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June 4, 2014 6:03pm
Lucia Maria

Nasska,

I was whacked on the palm of the hand by a ruler wielded by a nun when I was 7. I can’t remember what I did – maybe talked when I shouldn’t have. Do you think I should be adding my pain to that list of acts of cruelty by nuns?

Though, I wouldn’t be surprised if a great number of those hits are actually porn sites – seems to be a thing, this obsession with nuns. Even Californication did it. Not that I watch such a disgusting show.
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June 4, 2014 6:10pm
nasska

…..” Do you think I should be adding my pain to that list of acts of cruelty by nuns?”…..

After what we have read today your experience would probably border on the trivial Lucia.

Presumably you had a loving home to seek emotional shelter in…..the Tuam kids were at the mercy of those deranged women charged with looking after them. No escape or respite from the cruelties.

I accept that there are some things I’m not fated to understand & how you as a Christian woman can excuse & support such vermin is one of them.
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June 4, 2014 6:21pm
kowtow

What cruelties?What neglect?

Where is the evidence?

Easy to sling shit in support of ones bigotted obsession.Evidence is what counts.
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June 4, 2014 6:26pm
Steve (North Shore)

Where is crazy Judith? Did she get the bullet? Demerits say 60 and she was having a minor meltdown
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June 4, 2014 6:28pm
Lucia Maria

Nasska,

I’ve read enough refutations of cruel treatment by nuns to be incredibly wary of reports, the Madelene Laundries being the most extreme example. And yet, that example shows up again and again and again, showing the power of a negative story released to the gullible public ready to believe it. I personally have known a number of nuns, having gone to school and been taught by them from age 5 to 16. None were cruel. How many have you known in your life, that you could believe what you do of them?

Yes, I know this comment will open me up for attack in regards to what I said yesterday about Muslims. But I’m ready.
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June 4, 2014 6:34pm
cha

Bugger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqyuIb9EFRY
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June 4, 2014 6:40pm
Lucia Maria

Steve,

I don’t know. We don’t tend to coexist on the blog that well, so I don’t keep track.

Maybe she just needs a break? I tend to do that, go away to spend more time doing things like re-siliconing the shower or mowing the laws, or just full on cooking.

Not much time for lounging around commenting all the time. Otherwise dinner could be late, like tonight! Though, I seem to be managing so far – potatoes are in the oven, all is progressing.
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June 4, 2014 6:41pm
Viking2

A jury has accepted that a Christchurch man could have given consent for a sex act with another man while suffering from alcohol-induced amnesia.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10118997/Drunk-man-consented-to-sex

So what happened in Mirimar then?
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June 4, 2014 6:43pm
Lucia Maria

Viking,

Well, if the sex act had been performed on a woman, then the prevailing opinion is that drunk women can’t consent, therefore it’s rape. Be interesting to see what will happen here.
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June 4, 2014 6:46pm
nasska

kowtow

From the reference in my 11.18am.

….”And from the comments section of the article:

….”I spent the first three years of my life in one of these homes and yes the nuns were very cruel seeing them cots brought it back to me we used to be kept in theme cots all day and when we cried the used to just keep hitting us”…..

Please define cruelty…..it’s been nearly fifty years since I left school & the meaning may have changed.

And from my earlier link:

….”I vividly remember being told that I was not worthy and than no one wanted me. This has stayed with me my whole life. This statement was said to me every day. It was drummed into me how worthless I was and that no one would ever want me. I don’t remember a day whilst at the orphanage when those things were not said to me. “……

And

….” The nun would stand over me and yell and scream at me to clean up my mess. The nun used to make me feel so ashamed because I had been sick in front of everyone. It made me feel so bad. I could not understand why they kept force feeding me all those things when they knew how sick it would make me. Maybe they just enjoyed humiliating me all the time, I don’t know. “…..

And

….”All I remember is getting hit very hard for wetting my bed. But worse was to come, because the girl who had helped me really got hit over and over again. To this day, I have never forgiven myself that the lovely girl who helped me got beaten so badly, all because she helped me”…….

What cruelties?What neglect? …….you need help.
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June 4, 2014 6:46pm
Lucia Maria

I’ve been reading more about this apparent, ‘stolen election’ in London. The journos from The Telegraph are gunning for the guy: Lutfur Rahman adviser: there will be street violence unless people stop complaining about Tower Hamlets election . Scary that the police found evidence of fraud in the previous election, but didn’t gather enough evidence to be able to do anything about it. Maybe they need help from our police force here in NZ, given that they’ve taken John Banks to court.
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June 4, 2014 6:49pm
kowtow

I need help?

No n’arse you need help with your obsession.
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June 4, 2014 6:57pm
mikenmild

What about your obsession with absolving the curch of any crime?
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June 4, 2014 7:00pm
cha

What cruelties?What neglect?

One child died every two weeks for decades and that’s your reaction. You’re sick at heart – a despicable sack of shit.
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June 4, 2014 7:11pm
Lucia Maria

Cha,

One child died every two weeks for decades…

Out of how many children?
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June 4, 2014 7:15pm
SGA

Lucia Maria at 7:15 pm

Out of how many children?

250ish from memory.
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June 4, 2014 7:18pm
mikenmild

Yeah, keep a sense of proportion, cha. There might have been thousands in that orphanage and so one every two weeks would be a miniscule death rate.
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June 4, 2014 7:18pm
kowtow

Fuck you cha.Another bigot.
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June 4, 2014 7:19pm
kowtow

Some 300 died in 3 years between 43 and 46. Very easily explained by the malnutrition,TB and other massive problems associated with the deprivations of WW2 and a relatively poor country.

but hey let’s blame the evil nuns.Easy.
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June 4, 2014 7:23pm
kowtow

Milky

Absolved of what crime, specifically at Tuam?
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June 4, 2014 7:25pm
cha

Yes, must keep sense of proportion..
//

.

Expect the usual Defenders of the Faith to trot out their well-practised ”few bad apples” lines. ”The vast majority of Catholic institutions did great good for Irish children,” they’ll tell us. They’ll wring their hands and drip sincerely that times were different then and nobody knew how bad it was, but the simple truth is they’ll be wrong, perhaps wilfully wrong, to say nobody knew.

We knew. We just didn’t care.

In 1946, Ireland’s culture of cruelty and indifference to the most vulnerable was condemned by the most famous priest in the world and we ignored him.

The internationally-acclaimed hero of “Boys Town”, Roscommon-born Father Edward Flanagan, visited the land of his birth and was horrified by what he saw here, denouncing Ireland’s treatment of children in Church and State care as “a scandal, un-Christlike, and wrong”.

Flanagan, a reluctant celebrity since the 1938 film starring Spencer Tracey had immortalised him, had founded Boys Town in 1917 as a centre of education and shelter for poor and neglected boys in Omaha, Nebraska. His philosophy was simple and powerful: “There is no such thing as a bad boy”.

Father Flanagan treated those in his care with compassion and respect and his kindness showed such success that he became known as “the world’s foremost expert on boys’ training and youth care.”

Flanagan told a public meeting in Cork’s Savoy Cinema: “You are the people who permit your children and the children of your communities to go into these institutions of punishment. You can do something about it.” Calling Ireland’s institutions “a disgrace to the nation,” he said “I do not believe that a child can be reformed by lock and key and bars, or that fear can ever develop a child’s character.”

Nobody listened.

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/mass-grave-galway-tuam-1494001-May2014/
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June 4, 2014 7:25pm
Lucia Maria

Sorry, I’ve lost track. Are we talking about Ireland or Nasska’s link from Australia? Or are they all just getting merged into this great big pot of all catholic nuns are evil and too many kids die in their orphanages?
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June 4, 2014 7:25pm
nasska

The “bigots” keep piling up!

You’d go along with putting an end to bigotry by criminalizing any dissenting point of view I presume kowtow.
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June 4, 2014 7:27pm
nasska

Lucia Maria

Yes.
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June 4, 2014 7:28pm
SGA

kowtow at 7:23 pm

Some 300 died in 3 years between 43 and 46. Very easily explained by the malnutrition,TB and other massive problems associated with the deprivations of WW2 and a relatively poor country.

Again from memory, that was of the “one report even claimed that” variety rather than the evidence from the death registry wasn’t it?
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June 4, 2014 7:29pm
Lucia Maria

Nasska,

I’m cooking dinner. Steak is now on. Brain is half here and half making sure things aren’t burning. I have no idea what your yes means!
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June 4, 2014 7:30pm
SGA

Lucia Maria at 7:25 pm

Sorry, I’ve lost track. Are we talking about Ireland or Nasska’s link from Australia? Or are they all just getting merged into this great big pot of all catholic nuns are evil and too many kids die in their orphanages?

I’m not actually on an anti-nun crusade, I’m more in “the good ol’ days weren’t necessarily so” camp.
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June 4, 2014 7:32pm
Viking2

Talking road safey.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlTA3rnpgzU
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June 4, 2014 7:33pm
nasska

Lucia

Don’t cremate the steak….that is sacrilege!

By “yes” I meant the topic has widened out. Abuse is abuse regardless of it’s geographical position.

It would appear that the 1930’s to 1960 were hazardous times to be an orphan.
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June 4, 2014 7:37pm
kowtow

Some reflection on the issue ,rather than just the usual bigotted Catholic bashing shite that goes on here.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/victoria-white/its-not-just-the-state-that-needs-to-say-sorry-to-magdalene-survivors-221865.html
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June 4, 2014 7:43pm
SGA

nasska at 7:37 pm

Don’t cremate the steak….that is sacrilege!

How that was overlooked in Leviticus, I’ve never understood.

It would appear that the 1930′s to 1960 were hazardous times to be an orphan.

Unlike, say, Dicken’s England 😉
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June 4, 2014 7:48pm
nasska

I read the Irish Examiner article.

Nice deflection…..an atrocity shared with the community is an atrocity halved I always say. 🙂
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June 4, 2014 7:56pm
nasska

….”Unlike, say, Dicken’s England”…..

We didn’t really see much change until the ascendancy of the dreaded “progs” SGA. 🙂
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June 4, 2014 7:58pm
Viking2

No wonder so many despise the Catholics.
History of genocide no better than the Muslims.

And some want to excuse their behavoir so I say unto you, show us where the Bible tells you to treat another human being in this way.
No wonder you have to fill the plate each week.

Worse we have now another one going to be elected to our Parliament.
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June 4, 2014 7:59pm
SGA

nasska at 7:58 pm

….”Unlike, say, Dicken’s England”…..
We didn’t really see much change until the ascendancy of the dreaded “progs” SGA. 🙂

Dicken’s was probably a dreaded “prog” himself. He was a shit to his wife, so there you go.
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June 4, 2014 8:01pm
nasska

….” He was a shit to his wife”…..

She probably burnt his steak SGA. 🙂
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June 4, 2014 8:04pm
kowtow

Not just the Church .Debated in parliament in 1934.So the problem was openly discussed and everyone was therefor aware.See Registrars report of 1 in 3 illigitimate births resulted in death within the year ,1924.

So all the high dudgeon and anti Catholic bullshit from all and sundry is hypocrisy.

Not deflection n’asrehole.The bigger picture.Courts sent people to those places.Protestants too.

Blaming evil nuns is too easy.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail1934020700036?opendocument
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June 4, 2014 8:09pm
cha

Blaming evil nuns is too easy.

Indeed, we can blame the Bon Secours nuns, the brides of Christ, for dumping the bodies of the 800 children who died in their care in a septic tank.
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June 4, 2014 8:12pm
SGA

kowtow at 8:09 pm

Not just the Church .Debated in parliament in 1934.So the problem was openly discussed and everyone was therefor aware.See Registrars report of 1 in 3 illigitimate births resulted in death within the year ,1924.

And still nothing was done – by the state or the churches.

Courts sent people to those places.Protestants too.

Not only the courts, I think. If I’m remembering correctly, if a poor woman was sent there, she was expected to stay and work there for a year, then leave without the child. They provided a slightly different service for the more well-to-do. For a cash sum, the mother could turn up, discretely have the unfortunate “accident”, and leave as soon as she was able. (Happy to be corrected if I’ve misremembered)
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June 4, 2014 8:21pm
Johnboy

When I had a bit of trouble with my septic my tank pumper told me to toss toss in some roadkill possums and to chuck in some brewers yeast!

Worked a treat no odour, looks pinkish like it should.

Wonder if the Nun’s got some Guinness yeast to add to theirs? 🙂
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June 4, 2014 8:25pm
nasska

A professor was delivering a lecture on Philosophy at the University.

“By the year 2100, religion will disappear from the civilised world,” he said to the students.

A Muslim bloke stood up.

“But professor, currently Islam is spreading and will increase even more by then,” he said.

“Abdul,” said the lecturer, “I was talking about the civilised world.”
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June 4, 2014 8:26pm
Johnboy

My wife burnt the steak once. It was back in 1985. I gave her a right bollocking about it.

She told me I could fucking cook it from then on so I have.

I get to eat lovely steak since then, cooked to perfection by me the master.

I get to cook the steak and the spuds and the veg and do the dishes while she watches TV.

Taught the bitch who’s boss alright! 🙂
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June 4, 2014 8:44pm
big bruv

Johnboy

Good man, I hope you told her that any more of her shit would mean that she had to make the bloody bed on her own.
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June 4, 2014 9:00pm
Yvette

1985, Johnboy, I remember that.
We could see the smoke from Avalon Tower Block and to start with thought it was the Taita Cemetery again.
Then nothing much happened that was newsworthy until John Banks cut Sam Brackenov off Radio Pacific one morning in 1997 🙂
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June 4, 2014 9:18pm

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