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June 3, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 3 June 2014

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Zapper

I agree Ryan, not every muslim is destined to be a criminal or terrorist. But the fact that so many do end up that way is surely worthy of comment? Unless you claim that being Muslim is not the common link – the Qu’ran would say otherwise though.
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June 3, 2014 3:37pm
Odakyu-sen

On a different note: A wasted driver crashes in Onehunga, bringing down high-tension lines on his car.

Sergeant Paul Simcox was the police serious crash unit officer at the scene and said investigations showed the car was travelling between 118 km/h and 122 km/h when it crashed. Neilson Street has a 50 km/h speed limit.
He told the inquest speed and alcohol were factors in the crash.
Outside the inquest, Mr Tuporo’s mother Glenda Olsen said she hoped the inquest would answer questions she had about her son’s death. “Somebody has to be held accountable,” she said. “I want to see justice for my son.”

Help me out please. Guy (drunk). Crashes car and brings down power lines that pose a danger to rescue services. For this delay in getting the power company to isolate the lines at 4:40 a.m., someone “has to be held accountable” and there has to be “justice for my son.”

Who should be accountable? a) the police? b) the ambulance service? c) the power company? d) rescue service control? Have I forgotten any other party who just might possibly have prevented this death?
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June 3, 2014 3:46pm
Scott

Sure not all Moslems are terrorists. When I was living in Auckland a few years ago we had Muslim neighbours and very nice they were too.

However with 20,000 terrorist attacks by Moslems since 911 I think we can safely conclude that there is a problem right now with Muslim terrorism.

And the fact of the matter is that Islam demands that everybody submit themselves to Allah and if they won’t submit themselves they should be either killed or forced to submit and to live their lives as 2nd class citizens.
So myself and many other people believe that the problem is not with individuals but with the religion they follow. Moslems sincerely believe that Muhamed has given us the definitive guide to life, the Koran, which gives them the right and obligation and duty to destroy every other system of government and every other religion.

It has been this way from the beginning. Islam was always a religion that made converts either by persuasion or by military force.Mohammed was a military leader.
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June 3, 2014 3:49pm
Ryan Sproull

I agree Ryan, not every muslim is destined to be a criminal or terrorist. But the fact that so many do end up that way is surely worthy of comment?

We’ve already established that the fact is, proportionately, exceedingly few do end up that way.

You changed the discussion to “the fact that so many terrorists are Muslim”, which is worthy of comment, and so I commented.

Unless you claim that being Muslim is not the common link – the Qu’ran would say otherwise though.

It reminds me a bit of that line: “That there are no atheists in a foxhole is not an argument against atheism; it is an argument against foxholes.”

Being Muslim is demonstratively not a sufficient condition for someone to become a criminal or a terrorist. A Muslim on planet earth is exceedingly unlikely to be a terrorist. Other conditions or combinations of conditions are obviously required for someone, Muslim or not, to become a terrorist.
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June 3, 2014 3:51pm
Gulag1917

Ryan
hi If I see injustice I am conscience bound to correct it often defined as a sin of omission if no attempt is made. e.g.
Problem; US foreign policy is contributing to the increased persecution of Christians.
Solution stop US foreign interference which is destabilising nations which leads to the persecution.
http://www.infowars.com/why-does-christian-persecution-get-worse-in-every-country-the-u-s-liberates/
The Christian Right in the USA are ironically a major contributor to this. Thankfully Christians in NZ and elsewhere out of the US are often quite resistant to supporting the US in its nation destabilising/remaking. Still a long way to go yet.
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June 3, 2014 3:53pm
Zapper

Ryan, the proportion you should be looking at, instead of violating the laws of statistics, is the proportion of terrorists who are Muslims, not the other way round.
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June 3, 2014 3:54pm
Ryan Sproull

Ryan, the proportion you should be looking at, instead of violating the laws of statistics, is the proportion of terrorists who are Muslims, not the other way round.

I did look at that, and addressed it. Then you said…

not every muslim is destined to be a criminal or terrorist. But the fact that so many do end up that way is surely worthy of comment?

“The fact that so many do end up that way” is suggesting that a high proportion of Muslims are terrorists, rather than that a high proportion of terrorists are Muslims, which we’ve agreed is not true.
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June 3, 2014 4:00pm
Odakyu-sen

“Let’s say you met 375 Muslims and they were all just awful people and you decided on that basis that all Muslims are terrible. Statistically, that’s the equivalent of meeting just one awful New Zealander and deciding that all New Zealanders are awful.”

Actually, n=375 is a pretty good sample size. You can get up to all kinds of mischief with a sample that large.
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June 3, 2014 4:03pm
Gulag1917

Kiwiblog should get in the action and start its own political party.
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June 3, 2014 4:04pm
mikenmild

Want to make a start on some political principles you think all Kiwibloggers would subscribe to?
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June 3, 2014 4:16pm
Ryan Sproull

Want to make a start on some political principles you think all Kiwibloggers would subscribe to?

Nationwide ban on arguments about God or 9/11.
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June 3, 2014 4:17pm
Gulag1917

mikenmild
That would require some true diplomacy.
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June 3, 2014 4:18pm
wikiriwhis business

“Kiwiblog should get in the action and start its own political party.”

As opposed to the National Party which accepts Chinese bribery???????????
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June 3, 2014 4:21pm
Left Right and Centre

Sugar nazis strike !!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/10101772/Obesity-fight-sees-lollies-banned-at-hospital

Here’s some ideas to trial: (1) Sugary drinks in their own vending machine hooked up to a treadmill. When you hit 5kms – Ga-doosh !! You get your nasty evil sugar concoction.

(2) Trained staff assess physical state of customer before a sale of product kept locked behind counter. Yep – you’re ok – here’s your Fanta you skinny little stick man – enjoy !!

(3) Vending machine hooked up to scales.

(4) Swipe cards for healthy weight range people.

These idiots scare me . . .

Martin Gallagher said the changes to what was stocked in the machines would soon be accepted and it would likely not be long before the wider community followed suit.

“It’s like smoking in pubs. I think we are making a good start.

“This is just like the fluoride issue. It’s about what’s good for the public’s health,” Gallagher said.

“It’s about prolonging lives and potentially saving lives.”

No – it’s not like smoking in pubs. I’m not blowing soft drink in someone’s face. No – it’s not like fluoride. You can buy one soft drink while in hospital and that’s fine. Wider community ? Like – all the shops that sell soft drink and make how much money out of it ? Yeah – they don’t mind making less money I’m sure. Good one clowns.
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June 3, 2014 4:35pm
Odakyu-sen

I put it to you that for terrorism to happen, you need more than one risk factor. What could some risk factors be?

1. A religion that says “a righteous man does _____” / “If you do ______ you will be rewarded in paradise.” / ______ are unclean.” etc
2. A political ideology that says “______ are the bad guys” / “it is okay to _____ in order to achieve ______, etc.
3. A culture in which your society and the people in your family enthusiastically support factors 1 or 2 above (or both)
4. A culture that sanctions the kind of behavior advocated in 1 or 2 or both.

In the West, although Christians have risk factor 1 in their Old Testament, their cultural values (it’s not nice to kill people/must obey the law of the land) will generally prevent them from going any further.
Individuals in a culture that treats some of its members as chattels or believes outsiders are sub-human animals probably don’t have the “inhibiting factors” holding them back from carrying out extreme religious/political acts.

Any thoughts?
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June 3, 2014 4:41pm
wikiriwhis business

National accepts Chinese bribery fraudulence
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June 3, 2014 4:42pm
wikiriwhis business

“Nationwide ban on arguments about God or 9/11.”

No argument. 9/11 was an inside job.

2 planes, 3 buildings
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June 3, 2014 4:44pm
Ryan Sproull

I don’t think that’s an exhaustive list, Odakyu-sen, but I think it’s heading in the right direction, for sure.

I think a certain level of desperation is a risk factor too.
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June 3, 2014 4:45pm
Ryan Sproull

“Nationwide ban on arguments about God or 9/11.”

No argument. 9/11 was an inside job.

2 planes, 3 buildings

What have I doooooooooone!?
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June 3, 2014 4:46pm
mikenmild

I think Odakyu-sen is trying to imply that Christians are unlikely to engage in terrorism.
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June 3, 2014 4:48pm
wikiriwhis business

“What have I doooooooooone!?”

Someone denying 3 buildings did not go down on 9/11 when 3 buildings did go down.
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June 3, 2014 4:50pm
wikiriwhis business

The National Party accepted Chinese bribery
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June 3, 2014 4:52pm
hj

I tink there is a case for not allowing religious freedom. Take Islam: I saw on a discussion where a Muslim was decrying someones quoting some of the worst bits of the Koran. He said that that written when going into battle and they were special circumstance and so didn't apply. O.k so clarify the text before your religion is allowed, or you are allowed to immigrate.
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June 3, 2014 4:54pm
aquataur

Another contender for a Darwin award

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11266767

His mother ‘wants justice for her son’ – I think he did get justice – if any-one was to die, I am glad it was him that passed away – not an innocent bystander !
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June 3, 2014 4:54pm
Ryan Sproull

I think Odakyu-sen is trying to imply that Christians are unlikely to engage in terrorism.

He’s right. Almost no Christians engage in terrorism.

All of this, of course, is contingent on one’s definition of terrorism.
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June 3, 2014 5:00pm
mikenmild

As the occasional protesters in front of Parliament remind us, ‘War is Terrorism’.
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June 3, 2014 5:11pm
hj

I think Odakyu-sen is trying to imply that Christians are unlikely to engage in terrorism.
….
I think Islam has more overt calls to violence against non believers. You can find the same in Christianity but mainly in the old testament.
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June 3, 2014 5:12pm
Ryan Sproull

As the occasional protesters in front of Parliament remind us, ‘War is Terrorism’.

Certainly, though even if you don’t agree to that definition, there’s always, “Christians are more likely to illegally invade foreign countries resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians.”
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June 3, 2014 5:17pm
Ryan Sproull

Now, most Christians don’t illegally invade foreign countries resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians, but the people who do are extremely likely to be Christian, and that demands an explanation.
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June 3, 2014 5:23pm
Odakyu-sen

Ryan,

It’s just something I cobbled together.

Mikenmild (do you prefer the lower-case “m”?) (I can’t help myself. Capitalization matters to me. Japanese doesn’t have capitalization. Sorry, I digress.)

Mikenmild. Depends which Christian group you are referring to. If Rwandan Christians, then cultural factor 3 could come into play in some massacres. (Also depends on your definition of “Christian”.) Similar variation will exist in the muslim populations, ranging to relatively bell-pepper mild (say, 1,000 units on the Scoville scale for Turkish muslims) all the way to Saudi Wahabi Wasabi of 350,000 heat units) (we’re talking Habanero territory here, son).
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June 3, 2014 5:24pm
Odakyu-sen

Here’s something silly (albeit spicy).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSzgNRzpjo8
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June 3, 2014 5:29pm
Ryan Sproull

That is very silly. I feel silly for laughing at it.
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June 3, 2014 5:32pm
Odakyu-sen

Totally silly.

The best part is the chorus that starts at 0:47. Sing along with me, now: “It burns, burns, burns, ….
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June 3, 2014 5:46pm
hj

Islam and Violence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_violence

Hacks me off when commentators start by praising “true” _. As if relegions (might not be) the product of a demented raver.
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June 3, 2014 6:07pm
Lucia Maria

Ryan,

I never said that all Muslims are saints. I never said that Muslims never commit crimes. And I never said that Pakistan, Sudan, etc., were delightful places to live.

All I am saying is that it is unfair to describe all Muslims as “vile” and “foul” by virtue of the actions of some Muslims when there are clear examples of people who are Muslim and are not vile and foul.

Actually, you’ve said quite a lot more than that, however, I would agree with your premise that it is unfair, if that was the extent of the original commenter’s knowledge of Muslims, as I originally said when we two started interacting on this topic.

I personally think that Islam is vile and foul, with enough good stuff to attract people. Most Muslims can’t help being Muslim, as they are born into the faith, and apostasy is more or less, depending on the country, punishable by death. Often by family members, if the state isn’t interested. Any religion that punishes apostasy as part of it’s creed by death, is vile and foul.

I do know Muslims that are very nice people. Not many, granted, but enough to know that Muslims as a whole are not vile and foul. But, everyone knows that there is always an exception to the rule. To stake your claim in the group over the some, many or all argument is silly, I think, because it doesn’t allow for acknowledgement of genuine threat from people of a particular belief system.

I see the thread has moved on into terrorism. Yes, terrorism is relatively rare, I agree, but it does strike fear into populations, and the terrorism we are all hearing about right now is Islamic terrorism. Our airport security has increased because of Islamic terrorism. It’s not an insignificant threat – if you follow the news, you’ll see various foiled plots of Muslims to attack various places. A sign that our intelligence agencies are alert to who is a threat, even though at airports, they like to pick people like me to scan for various bomb making equipment.

I think there would be no harm from Islamic immigration if our faith in the West was strong, and conversion rates from Islam to Christianity were high. Because where else should it be safe for Muslims to convert?

Anyway, I asked about the number of Catholic priests who might exist, if there was any correlation in numbers between Islamic suicide bombers and other types. But there’s no correlation – it’s a stupid comparison. That was really my point in response to this comment of yours:

Another statistical analogy. Tarring all Muslims with the actions of a group of 3570 Muslims is the equivalent of tarring all Catholic priests with the actions of one.

As for your question:

I hear what you’re saying. You use “Western” and “Muslim” as if they’re mutually exclusive terms. Do you have any experience of Muslim Western men?

No, I don’t.
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June 3, 2014 6:23pm
Manolo

The minimum wage will ruin this city: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/03/seattle-council-passes-15-minimum-wage/
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June 3, 2014 6:51pm
Fletch

How well can you spell? I got 85% – I think some simple things do trip me up 🙂

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/lifestyle/spelling-bee/
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June 3, 2014 7:06pm
wiseowl

Ryan S.
For some more balance on climate matters.
climatedepot.com or nzclimatescience.net.nz
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June 3, 2014 7:18pm
Steve (North Shore)

Geez Kiwiblog died at 7.18.
It is now 9.12.
I did not get an invite to the party you all went to – shame
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June 3, 2014 9:12pm
wat dabney

“I personally think that Islam is vile and foul, with enough good stuff to attract people. ”

And exactly the same for Christianity of course.

A theocracy truly based on biblical principles would be as vile as any Islam theocracy.

There would be stonings in every town in the land every weekend.
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June 3, 2014 9:23pm
Ryan Sproull

How well can you spell? I got 85% – I think some simple things do trip me up 🙂

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/lifestyle/spelling-bee/

Boom! 100%!

But I guessed on gist/jist.
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June 3, 2014 9:34pm
Ryan Sproull

Anyway, I asked about the number of Catholic priests who might exist, if there was any correlation in numbers between Islamic suicide bombers and other types. But there’s no correlation – it’s a stupid comparison.

It seemed an awful lot like you thought that if the same rates of suicide bombers among Muslims were applied to Catholic priests, there would be a number greater than 1, and we could all point to that as an example of how Muslims are so terroristy, given that there are no Catholic priest suicide bombers.

I actually had no idea that the number would be so low when I started doing the comparison. I was getting ready to find out if any Catholic priests were involved in IRA bombings and getting ready to talk about how there aren’t whole populations of Catholic priests under occupation by foreign invaders, etc.

I personally think that Islam is vile and foul, with enough good stuff to attract people.

That’s a different thing from saying that Muslims are vile and foul. You said at 12.15 that it’s only bigotry if Muslims’ beliefs are being disparaged, rather than the people. I’m inclined to think the opposite. By all means, believe and express that Islam is vile and foul. But I was originally responding to someone who, on the authority of 10 days in Thailand, declared all Muslim people vile and foul.

And we know that Islam doesn’t make people vile and foul, as you and I both know Muslims who are perfectly lovely. And we know that Islam isn’t required for someone to be vile and foul, as you and I both know non-Muslims who are horrible arseholes.

I think that bigotry is closely linked with prejudgement. If I make judgements about someone based on knowledge of some characteristic that is not essentially causally linked with my judgement, I’m being unfair on them. Whether they’re Muslim, Christian, atheist, Maori, gay, a Nat, a cop, a prostitute, whatever – if I believe some kind of blanket judgement about all people of that “type” without learning the facts of the individual, I’m being unfair.

That doesn’t stop it being very possible that almost every man from a given country’s culture has views of women that are jarringly at odds with modern Western political correctness. I apologise if I appeared flippant regarding that earlier.

I think there would be no harm from Islamic immigration if our faith in the West was strong, and conversion rates from Islam to Christianity were high. Because where else should it be safe for Muslims to convert?

Obviously, I’m not worried about how many Muslims do or do not convert to Christianity. But in general, when I think about immigration, I think of the immigrants’ kids, growing up Kiwi. They don’t have to convert away from their religion to be shaped by our culture as they grow up here, possibly very different from the culture of their parents’ countries of origin.

As I said, there are Western Muslims, just as there are Western Christians. And there are non-Western countries whose cultures give rise to what we would consider very sexist Christian men indeed.
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June 3, 2014 9:58pm
kowtow

Yep those sons of Muslim immigrants make the best, most integrated citizens……..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2644895/The-British-Bin-Laden-House-Fraser-trainee-unmasked-sadistic-Al-Qaeda-killer.html

Good night.
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June 3, 2014 10:09pm
Ryan Sproull

I have more faith in the integrative power of Kiwi culture than in that of British culture, Kowtow.
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June 3, 2014 10:14pm
SGA

wat dabney at 9:23 pm

There would be stonings in every town in the land every weekend.

Is now Wat, every day in fact 🙂
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June 3, 2014 10:35pm
Left Right and Centre

I have more faith in the integrative power of Kiwi culture than in that of British culture, Kowtow.

Same weirdos, different country.

They see it as ‘planet muslim’ mate. They don’t give a fuck about ‘NZ’.
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June 4, 2014 5:33am
Manolo

Hero or traitor?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2647397/Revealed-Bowe-Bergdahl-left-note-comrades-telling-leaving-start-new-life-Army-general-says-faces-desertion-charges.html
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June 4, 2014 7:13am
Ryan Sproull

Same weirdos, different country.

They see it as ‘planet muslim’ mate. They don’t give a fuck about ‘NZ’.

Even if that were true, it wouldn’t be true of the children who grow up in NZ schools with NZ friends.
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June 4, 2014 8:31am
Left Right and Centre

Ryan – What I see in NZ and a lot of other countries is people coming in who separate off into their own little communities and that’s it. I know exactly what you’re saying – and I’ve seen that too. It’s a sliding scale and some become very kiwi and some don’t – and some it’s a deliberate attempt to remain and retain their own identity while rejecting as much as possible that of the country they’ve moved to. They’re not interested in NZ some of them – they just happen to be here.

I often here PIs saying ‘that’s the way we do things’ etc – hello ? They’re not in the fuckin islands anymore. What happens when big numbers come in is that they don’t need to bother with ‘outsiders’.

I just don’t want to hear this cultural harmony horsecrap – that’s all.

I hear Asian parents speaking with their kids – in Mandarin. In their own language. You wonder if they’re migrants or colonists ? These nice white dipshits are going to let us have more of planet earth – cool !! You’ll notice more and more ‘Asianisation’ of Auckland.

I’ve never understood why NZ wanted to bring in Asians en masse . . . ???? If I loved Asian fobs I’d fuck off to Asia, wouldn’t I ? So that I could be a white fob surrounded by zillions of them. I don’t remember voting for Auckland and Wellington to be stacked high with fobs. I’ll be honest – I don’t enjoy walking around Wellington CBD when every second humanoid now is a weirdo fresh as a daisy five minute fob. Lydia Ko ? Remote is in my hand and it’s a race to flick the channel when she comes on the sports news. She aint a fucking kiwi. Like some of these import rugby players struggling to speak English at the level of a five year old. Yeah – terrific.

The Maori didn’t have any choice about whites taking over. Whites did have a choice who comes in. So – which ones are the mugs ?
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June 5, 2014 3:22am

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