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June 22, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 22 June 2014

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General Debate

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Nostradamus

Judith:

Are you seriously telling me that there was an orchestrated email campaign against you? That’s news to me.

I do note, though, that you’re on record as having some kind of personal issue with John Key. Just as a matter of interest, what did he last say or do that you agreed with?
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June 22, 2014 3:12pm
Judith

@ Nostradamus (2,860 comments) says:
June 22nd, 2014 at 3:12 pm

No, there was a bunch of dumwit losers who think that a woman that has an opinion different to theirs should not be allowed anywhere that they can read it. They are a joke – people that behave like that deserve to be as unhappy and miserable as they seem to be.

John Key – I really like his recent handling over the Americas Cup. He is reflecting the wishes of the community, over the desires of the sport (despite the fact I believe the Cup is worthwhile economically in the good media it gives) I respect the fact that he is doing what the people want, and not pampering to a richmans sport demands.

@ johnboy

I don’t really care – I don’t take any of it on board. I realised a long time ago there were people in the world that have to have approval etc. As far as I am concerned, the ticking system is for them. Poor wee insecure souls that they are.
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June 22, 2014 3:19pm
UglyTruth

Putin Advisor Proposes “Anti-Dollar Alliance” To Halt US Aggression Abroad

Glazyev’s set of countermeasures specifically targets the core strength of the US war machine, i.e. the Fed’s printing press. Putin’s advisor proposes the creation of a “broad anti-dollar alliance” of countries willing and able to drop the dollar from their international trade. Members of the alliance would also refrain from keeping the currency reserves in dollar-denominated instruments. Glazyev advocates treating positions in dollar-denominated instruments like holdings of junk securities and believes that regulators should require full collateralization of such holdings.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-06-18/putin-advisor-proposes-anti-dollar-alliance-halt-us-foreign-aggression
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June 22, 2014 3:20pm
Manolo

With friends like him, who needs enemies?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/21/neil-kinnock-ed-miliband-2015
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June 22, 2014 3:22pm
stephieboy

Ugly Truth, what aggression abroad .? BTW did you catch my post yesterday that exposed the misinformation by Erik Rush of the moon bat WND.
He deliberately misquoted from the Guardian claiming the US were training ISIS militants in Jordan .They were in fCt training Syrian rebel groups to combat ISIS militants.
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June 22, 2014 3:31pm
David Garrett

Mikey at 12.24: I have come late to this, so my points may already have been made.

You ask why, if it is not colonization, Maori appear to beat and bash their children at a higher rate that Non Maori. The answer, IMHO, is simply that Maori culture was and remains an extremely violent one. Have you ever read Paul Moon’s “This horrid practice” about Maori cannabilism? Moon – himself a “Maori” by modern definitions – concludes that Maori as a whole lived in a state of semi permanent paranoia, if not full blown psychosis, caused by the constant and all pervasive fear of being bashed to death at any moment.

This is not unique to Maori: Get a book by William Mariner, a cabin boy on a ship called the Port au Prince, which was ambushed in Tonga in 1806 …Most of the crew were killed and many were eaten, but the Chief involved in the attack took a shine to Mariner (let’s not go there…) and ordered him to be spared. Mariner subsequently lived for four years in Tonga, and on his return to England wrote a book about this experiences…It describes a life of subsistence agriculture – much easier in Tonga than here – and endless warfare…He describes captives being bought back to his patron’s village and having “their brains knocked out” on dish shaped stones carved for that purpose, and their bodies eaten.

In addition to Moon’s, numerous contemporary accounts exist of Maori living pre 1840 They all paint a very similar story: a story of depraved and cruel treatment of slaves, both male and female, of cannabilism and infanticide used as a means of population control when resources were scarce.

Why are the shadows of that behaviour still present 7 or 8 generations later? I don’t know…I am neither an anthropologist nor a psychologist…I am however a voracious reader of early NZ history, and facts are facts, no matter how inconvenient.
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June 22, 2014 3:33pm
minus

Last week a Herald-DigiPoll survey found the party on 30 per cent, polls the previous week for One News and 3 News had almost exactly the same figures. In a fourth poll, published on Thursday, Labour had dropped to just over 23 per cent.

At what point does Labour’s strike disaster – that they rate less than the other opposition parties combined?
And loose initiative against the others combined?
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June 22, 2014 3:58pm
Judith

minus (112 comments) says:
June 22nd, 2014 at 3:58 pm

At what point does Labour’s strike disaster

Well National hit 21% in an actual election, and they didn’t self-implode and are doing well today, so why should Labour give up, they have National’s example to go by. 🙂
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June 22, 2014 4:15pm
mikenmild

‘Moon – himself a “Maori” by modern definitions – concludes that Maori as a whole lived in a state of semi permanent paranoia’
Um no, he doesn’t. Have you even read that book?
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June 22, 2014 4:32pm
minus

Rex, if colonization could be considered a factor in Maori behaviour, the cumulative effect of the greater experience of earlier life you mention must have been more so, and, as researchers like Dr J Dispenza indicate how genetics may alter in even the individual, pre-colonization Maori would likely be inclined to view life differently to other cultures, faulty as those may have been too, but not constantly afflicted with slavery, cannibalism and infanticide.

Why do the shadows of that behaviour still exist – perhaps not that much really has happened to change genetics – Land Wars, two World Wars, the Depression, urban drift and Rogernomics, won’t have done much to help. Nor a continual negative reiteration of a Maori “tail” in all statistics either, even if true.

And not colonization.
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June 22, 2014 4:35pm
minus

Judith – I just wondered at what point the Greens, with perhaps other support, may grasp the initiative and lead the Opposition?
In which Election was National 21%?
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June 22, 2014 5:06pm
David Garrett

Um…Mikey, not only have I read the book, (“This Horrid Practice”) I own a copy signed by the author…I suggest you read it again, particularly the last couple of chapters. I have also read Mariners account of his time in Tonga cover to cover.

Minus: Well said…and returning to Tonga – a country I can claim more than a little familiarity with – up until the 1970’s Tongans were not permitted to buy alcohol because Queen Salote decided they could not handle it…Now it is freely available, and “murder by bush knife and piss” is a common crime, and gives Tonga a homicide rate more than three times ours.

As I have noted here before, Apirana Ngata was strongly opposed to Maori being able to even enter licenced premises for very similar reasons.

And none of the above is racist or bigoted or any other pejorative word…it is simple fact.
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June 22, 2014 5:22pm
Viking2

Its worth reading Captain Cooks journals where he tells about their time in the sounds.
One Maori family resided there , a man and his wife and daughters. He gave all of them to the sailors for something like and axe and stuff.
That’s pre-colonization.

Plenty of recorded times when they ate one another.
The Pah Rd massacre in Tauranga and the Paeroa Maoris who came to Maketu, took lots of slaves etc and walked back home again with baskets of arms and legs to feast upon.
One of the local Churchmen went walking back with them and recorded it all.
Was published in the BOP times a few years ago.

Have a friend who had a house on the Pah rd site. when digging foundations for a new deck dug up various skulls etc. Before everyone got in to the money for Maori game so just pushed them all back in the hole. Still there today.

Yep they were friendly, quiet, respectful and luved their family and friends. just the kind of people you would invite over for a BBQ. Which limb would you like or would you rather have brain or a piece of a virgin’s fanny.

Luvely 😆
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June 22, 2014 5:26pm
mikenmild

I don’t think anyone is disputing that Maori were cannibals, are they? But are we really going to go with an explanation along the lines that Maori are still wedded to a violent, pre-contact culture? Or David’s one – they just can’t handle the drink?
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June 22, 2014 5:39pm
lilman

Mildandmike,your comment is fair.
But whats not fair is trying to say pre-colonial,Maori were a peaceful loving society,because that’s just a lie.
Maori lived and died by conquest,so why are the government giving recompense to Maori when the basis of their existence before settlers arrived was strength based.
Dont see Taranaki Maori demanding money and an apology from the Waikato tribes.
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June 22, 2014 5:50pm
David Garrett

Did I say those hypotheses of mine were mutually exclusive? In addition to the other things I am not, I am also not a geneticist…I do not know how many generations of “socialization” are needed to breed out fundamental traits…I have however been present numerous times when Tongan guys I knew well, and got on well with, would change personality between their second and third can of VB…and anyone who has lived in the Islands – as opposed to going to Raro and watching an ersatz cultural show with coconut shell bikinis – will tell you similar things.

But you wont have lived in the Islands Mikey, in fact you probably haven’t lived outside Welly. I think I can say for absolute certain that you never spent any time in a “Flying Jug” pub…You do realise beer jugs weren’t always plastic don’t you?
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June 22, 2014 5:50pm
David Garrett

Oh, and it is by no means universally accepted that Maori were habitual cannibals…When Moon’s book came out I recall a great deal of florid commentary to the effect that he had grossly exaggerated what occurred…especially from other Maori academics…

Before you make a further fool of yourself Mikey, perhaps I should reveal that although we have never met, Dr Moon and I exchange irregular e-mail correspondence on aspects of early NZ history, about which he is in my view the pre-eminent authority now…
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June 22, 2014 5:54pm
Judith

@ minus (114 comments) says:
June 22nd, 2014 at 5:06 pm

I don’t think the Greens ever will, because they suit a particular kind of voter and are therefore limited. At the moment they maybe collecting some of the swinging vote, who is disappointed with Labour but not prepared to go with National, or their partners. They are also benefiting from the ‘fashionable’ vote – Green being the new black, in that its not seen to be supporting the unions, but has great shock value when you want to be an upper class rebel.

PS – 2002
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June 22, 2014 5:55pm
mikenmild

But I don’t think I have made a fool of myself, David. I’m just engaging in some constructive debate. You appear to be saying that Maori have some genetic disposition to violence, shades of Belich’s ‘red Maori’ trope. Is that really your position, that we can’t do anything about it, except, of course, lock the offenders away?
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June 22, 2014 6:00pm
Fletch

The Associated Press has issued a correction of their “septic tank” story…

DUBLIN (AP) — In stories published June 3 and June 8 about young children buried in unmarked graves after dying at a former Irish orphanage for the children of unwed mothers, The Associated Press incorrectly reported that the children had not received Roman Catholic baptisms; documents show that many children at the orphanage were baptized. The AP also incorrectly reported that Catholic teaching at the time was to deny baptism and Christian burial to the children of unwed mothers; although that may have occurred in practice at times it was not church teaching. In addition, in the June 3 story, the AP quoted a researcher who said she believed that most of the remains of children who died there were interred in a disused septic tank; the researcher has since clarified that without excavation and forensic analysis it is impossible to know how many sets of remains the tank contains, if any. The June 3 story also contained an incorrect reference to the year that the orphanage opened; it was 1925, not 1926.
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June 22, 2014 6:21pm
big bruv

Labour have said they are delaying the release of their party list because of this weeks Donghua Liu revelations.

I simply don’t buy this. I suspect that the caucus has notified the president of the Labour party that there may well be a leadership challenge this week and that to release the party list might be a tad premature.

It is simply not credible to claim that Donghua Liu is the reason for this delay, Labour are desperate to change the narrative, desperate to get the attention off its corrupt image, the release of the party list would have taken some of the heat off Cuntliffe.

I would wager that the numbers are being run, that there are some very nervous people inside the Labour party and that Cuntliffe may well be ousted as leader by the end of the week.
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June 22, 2014 6:25pm
David Garrett

No No Mikey…You accused me of falsely representing what Moon as said about Maori as a people becoming paranoic if not psychotic because of the constant fear of violence…do you have a copy, or do I need to go and find mine and give you some chapter references for that conclusion?

When I called you on Moon’s hypothesis, you moved the goal posts…

What’s a “trope”>?? This appears to be a word unknown to the editors of my Concise Oxford
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June 22, 2014 6:28pm
Longknives

http://www.nzgeographic.co.nz/archives/issue-95/darwin

Mr Darwin’s observations of early Maori kind of destroy Mikey’s theories that ‘Colonialism’ is always to blame…
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June 22, 2014 6:36pm
Griff

An actual hard copy dictionary how quaint DG
The concise oxford is obsolete and no longer being published

Trope (literature) – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trope_(literature)
A literary trope is the use of figurative language – via word, phrase, or even an image – for artistic effect such as using a figure of speech. The word trope has …
‎Fantasy tropes – ‎TV Tropes – ‎Literary topos – ‎Antanaclasis
Trope – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trope
Trope or tropes may refer to: Trope (literature), the use of figurative language in literature; Trope (mathematics), an archaic geometry term for a tangent line or …
‎Trope (literature) – ‎TV Tropes – ‎Trope (philosophy) – ‎Trope (music)
Trope – Merriam-Webster Online
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trope
a word, phrase, or image used in a new and different way in order to create an artistic effect. Full Definition of TROPE. 1. a
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June 22, 2014 6:41pm
David Garrett

But to answer your question Mikey, yes, I think there is probably a very large component of genetics behind the fact that Maori are many times overrepresented in our prison population…14% or so of the population, 60+% of the prison population..

Greg Newbold has made the point that if we removed Maori from the population, our rate of offending – and our rate of imprisonment – would be a fraction of what it is…That is a terribly un PC conclusion, but it is one Newbold is on record as making, and sustaining over many years.

This also of course has implications for the “lets all be like Norway” brigade…Prisons like motels where the guards and prisoners address each other by their first names…Quite apart from the fact that this has been tried here before, there are no Maori in Norway, and it is in fact one of the most homogenous populations in Europe…unlike its neighbour Sweden which has been a haven for refugees since the Vietnam war, and now has serious problems with a vocal and increasingly violent Muslim minority…but that’s a whole other story…
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June 22, 2014 6:41pm
OneTrack

bb – “Labour have said they are delaying the release of their party list because of this weeks Donghua Liu revelations.”

But, but, David Cunliffe himself said that the Liu issue is nothing, possibly a minor accounting issue. He wouldn’t make …. up,would he?

Or, is the problem that their internal polling is now telling them that they are so low, that in order to meet the ideological requirements of the #manban, Jacinda is now #1 on the Labour list and Cunliffe himself is #13?
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June 22, 2014 6:47pm
Griff

Fuck if we remove Maori we would go back to near the top of the oecd rankings in nearly everything.
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June 22, 2014 6:49pm
mikenmild

So David, I understand you have children with your Tongan wife? Will you expect them to fulfill thier genetic heritage and go to jail too?
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June 22, 2014 6:51pm
big bruv

Griff

I think it was John Banks who said that if you removed Maori crime then NZ is the safest place in the world to live.

It remains to this very day a statement of fact.
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June 22, 2014 6:51pm
big bruv

mikenmild

Once again you show your ignorance. Whilst Murri kids are the most in danger from their parents it is also a statistical fact that PI kids are the safest.

When the new broke of the murder of the Henderson shopkeeper I made the statement at the time that the scum who killed the shopkeeper would be

1. Maori

2. Gang related.

Somebody (I cannot remember who) said that they thought it would be Maori or PI, my reply was that I would have been shocked if it was PI kids.

It turns out that I was right.
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June 22, 2014 7:00pm
mikenmild

BB
It was David who brought up the Tongan murder rate. I just wondered how he saw that playing out in his own family…
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June 22, 2014 7:04pm
Judith

@ big bruv (12,771 comments) says:
June 22nd, 2014 at 6:51 pm

Considering that there is not one person who is 100% Maori living in New Zealand, then how can you confirm that it is the Maori part of their heritage that is causing the violence? The one thing most of our violent criminals have in common, is some degree of European heritage!!

In two days time it is the 700th Anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn. Have you ever read the accounts of the violence of that battle? Queen Elizabeth I was recorded as having people killed so she could drink their blood – which they presume made her feel better because she was suffering from iron deficiency. During the second world war, extreme violence and inhumane practices, including torture was carried out by – WHITE people.

It appears to me that Europeans, and in fact most races have a propensity to violence. It is innate in the human species. That violence is recorded in varying extremes depending on the social conditions at the time.
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June 22, 2014 7:04pm
Dom Knots

Dear god. The lead topic on tv one’s ‘Sunday’ program is the wife of some reporters boring alcoholism. poor me, poor me, poor me – oh pour me a drink. Is this really the best they can do.
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June 22, 2014 7:07pm
Manolo

Is David Bain part-Maori? 🙂
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June 22, 2014 7:07pm
Longknives

Have you been at the Cooking Sherry again Judith?
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June 22, 2014 7:10pm
OneTrack

Dom Knots – I saw who it was and changed the channel.
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June 22, 2014 7:10pm
mikenmild

‘Queen Elizabeth I was recorded as having people killed so she could drink their blood’
LOL – you quite sure about that, Judith?
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June 22, 2014 7:14pm
Longknives

Dom Knots I just had a look at Sunday- Some lefty slanted article which you just know is going to lead towards a conclusion from some ‘Academic’ that “We need to double the price of booze”!
Fuck the wowsers! I wish I could drink more often…(Alas I am too busy working hard and paying my taxes to support New Zealand’s feral pothead underclass)
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June 22, 2014 7:14pm
Longknives

Judith has her wires crossed a little. I think she means-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_B%C3%A1thory

As opposed to Elizabeth 1..
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June 22, 2014 7:17pm
Longknives

And Bannockburn might have been a bit before Elizabeth’s time- Go have a wee lie down Judith…
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June 22, 2014 7:19pm
Judith

Sorry yes meant Elizabeth one,and of course it wasn’t at the same time as Bannockburn, idiot. They were examples of violence etc. Nice to see you still I obsess over brain. Poor thing, don’t have the ability to think beyond one topic.
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June 22, 2014 7:25pm
Longknives

Keep going dear- This is priceless!
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June 22, 2014 7:26pm
Judith

Sorry sitting with a two year old on my knee so typing is restricted, but either way you need to be sure your own heritage is perfect before you pick on the habits of others, especially when those others share some of your heritage.
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June 22, 2014 7:31pm
nasska

Out in the Wild West, Jesse James’s gang forces a train to stop, and
Jesse climbs on board. He bursts into a passenger car, pulls out his
guns, and fires. Blam! Blam!
“All right!” he yells. “I’m going to screw all the men and kill all the
woman!”

Blam! Blam!

“That’s right!” he growls. “I’m going to screw all the men and kill all
the women!”

A guy in the front row says, “Uh, Mr. James, I think you’ve got it
backwards.”

Suddenly a high pitched man’s voice in the back calls out,
“Excoose me, but Mr. James is robbing the train!”
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June 22, 2014 8:00pm
cricko

You ever needed to see what a prat mikenmild really is read the exchanges between
him and D Garrett above.

All this prat mikemild does is ask questions. The great “Yes, but?” tactic.
Wankers like mikenmild can keep that sort of shit up ad nauseum.
Why would you engage with such a prat other than to mock him ?

Mikenmild seems to have developed a lifetime experience in that craft.
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June 22, 2014 8:12pm
JeffW

Re the Maori debate, it seems to me that a contributing factor might be that welfare destroys mana.
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June 22, 2014 8:38pm
David Garrett

Mikey: Back after feeding and seeing my children in bed…That is a perfectly reasonable question.. and the answer is No, I don’t see any “traditional Tongan” traits of violence in my own son…

There have been times when he as punched others in rugby games, and my response is always “Who punched first?” So long as it is not my Charlie, then I am OK about him hitting back…the bottom line – I hope – is that he understands that being the first to resort to violence is a very bad thing…but responding in kind is OK…Thus far that seems to be working…He is a boy who protects the weak at school, and looks after the new kids…The fact that he is about twice the size of his peers perhaps makes that “mediator/regulator” role easier…thus far at least, it appears the values his Dad is teaching him is overcoming anything else…time will tell I guess…
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June 22, 2014 8:48pm
mike tan

David,

With respect, I think the “hitting back is ok” strategy could lead to problems for your son, given the legal system will only tolerate it in a case of self defense. Perhaps it is wiser to stress that violence is only okay in a situation of self defense
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June 22, 2014 8:51pm
cricko

JeffW
Great point.
And when you consider that the three cornerstones of Maori culture are mana, tapu and utu,
welfare (aimed at Maori in particular) fucks them up more than any other New Zealanders.

Either option leaves them with zero mana.

Give them free money because they are just poor harddoneby Maori. or
We are just hard done by Maori, we deserve free money.

Not going to help.
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June 22, 2014 8:53pm
cricko

mike tan
isn’t that exactly what Garrett said ?
Duh!
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June 22, 2014 9:02pm
Reid

People who think a person’s race is a causal factor in an individual act like do I commit a crime or do I save someone from drowning or anything else, seem to me, to be a bit mental.

I mean, it’s not rocket science, is it. I didn’t become a criminal because I had loving parents who gave enough of a shit about me they sacrificed themselves to give me and my siblings a good education plus they didn’t beat the hell out of me and that’s basically more or less the upbringing that most people who aren’t criminals had and basically more or less the opposite of the upbringing that most people who are criminals had. Right?

Chinese, African, European, Maori, who cares. You apply that formula to them and you get the same outcome. Don’t you.

Sure, there are outliers on both sides, crims who had a loving upbringing and good citizens who had the hell beaten out of them but in general, the above is the formula. Isn’t it.

Like I said, not rocket science.
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June 22, 2014 9:05pm
mike tan

Maybe i just read it incorrectly. But i interpreted him as saying that once the first punch is thrown, hitting back is fair game, this isn’t the same thing as self defense (e.g. the instigator could have started the fight but the threat could be neutralized for whatever reason, which would lead to a bad situation if the kid fought back anyway).

I understand the point of view that you dish what you receive, but out of purely selfish reasons, i would instruct my own to avoid violence at all possible costs (except self defense), given how easy it is for something serious to happen (like the other guy falls down and cracks his skull) which could lead to serious trouble for my kid.
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June 22, 2014 9:05pm
cricko

mike
you read it correctly.
Hard for someone with your experience to understand.
Your example is pure bullshit.

The bullshit promoted by your lecturer wont pass the bullshit sniff test here.
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June 22, 2014 9:14pm
mike tan

You disagree that a single punch can by chance lead to an outcome where the other guy is seriously damaged, and this has serious legal repercussions?
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June 22, 2014 9:16pm
Harriet

‘…..Sure, there are outliers on both sides, crims who had a loving upbringing and good citizens who had the hell beaten out of them but in general, the above is the formula. Isn’t it…..”

Reid, there was an old time safe cracker in the 80’s in ch-ch who was interviewed by the Press, he also happened to be Maori. He said he didn’t have the best of upbringings ect ect but he did say something like this, which has always stuck in my mind:

“Society may take you to the door of the building you want to rob, but it is you who decides to go in.”

I agree with him where most crime is concerned.

I also agree with what you have said, and if i can add : the biggest indicator of crime is a fatherless neighbourhood.
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June 22, 2014 9:23pm
cricko

mike @ 9.16
No. I don’t disagree with that.
But WTF has that got to do with the subject at hand ?
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June 22, 2014 9:23pm
mike tan

Do you understand that there is a difference between “once the first punch is thrown, it is completely fine to hit back” and what the law accepts as a legitimate use of force in self defense?.

Reflecting, David is well aware of this and i likely misinterpreted what was written (in which case, i apologize to you David).
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June 22, 2014 9:26pm
Harriet

mike tan#

Read you comment somewhere about khan academy ect. I use some maths sites and totaly agree with you in that education should also be framed around internet sites, webineers, ect and not ‘soley around one teacher’. Discrete maths was taught at high school level in the former USSR and I understand that they still do so along with other former eastern block countries – as it applys to computing, finance, statistics, economics, markets, social science ect. Whereas calculus mostly applys to engineering – for a manufacturing based economy. As I understand it they don’t currently teach discrete maths in NZ schools – but still teach calculus.

With the internet – kids could then be given the choice of either – based upon the choice of industry that they want to enter into.
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June 22, 2014 9:40pm
cricko

hey mike tan
get real.
Nobody is saying that if someone slaps you in the face that it is OK to blow them away with
an AK47.
That is a bullshit construct you have promulgated.
Your argument is…..what ?
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June 22, 2014 9:41pm
mike tan

Cricko,

I do not know where you are getting this intentional use of disproportionate force scenario from, given you agreed to what i said here:

“You disagree that a single punch can by chance lead to an outcome where the other guy is seriously damaged, and this has serious legal repercussions?”

Note where i say “by chance”.
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June 22, 2014 9:43pm
mike tan

Harriet,

I am glad you enjoy using those types of sites, I do too. I think it is the future of learning, i note that they also tap into the competitive nature of children with stuff like medals, achievement goals etc. Because the child is competing with the computer (and therefore him or herself) you also remove the negative aspect of some children being looked at as winners, and others losers. You also remove the risk of exposing the child to bullying and allow the child to learn at his or her own pace, as opposed to the pace being dictated by class averages/other factors. It is also more “fun” in the sense that lots of graphics are used, it is quite interactive and some of the internet based tutors take a “making it interesting” approach to their commentary. I would like to see an approach that is more inclusive of technology (which still leaves an important role for human direction). It is interesting to look at the IP from this perspective, as this is arguably a conflict of their platform, on one hand you have the internet revolutionizing teaching, and on the other you have it potentially taking jobs away from teachers, which would be unpopular with the left.
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June 22, 2014 9:50pm
cricko

mike
note where I ask, “How many faries can dance on the head of a pin ?”

Jeez mate, stating what you assume to be the point of the opponents argument and then
refuting that wrong assumption is just friken pathetic.

Is that a tactic that your lecturer taught you ?
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June 22, 2014 9:57pm
mike tan

Cricko,

I get the interpretation that you aren’t interested in engaging given that i have acknowledged that i may have misinterpreted the text above.

Cheers
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June 22, 2014 10:13pm
cricko

Jeez, oh dear,
Just read mike tan @9.50

What utter P.C. puke. And some idiot even gave it a thumbs up.
Go figure.
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June 22, 2014 10:13pm
Harriet

Mike tan#

I don’t think it would take jobs away as the teacher would still be needed to direct and oversee 30 kids.

“……internet based tutors take a “making it interesting” approach to their commentary. I would like to see an approach that is more inclusive of technology (which still leaves an important role for human direction)…..”

Yep. I believe that kids who have an idea of what industry/profession they want to enter into can then base all their education around that industry/profession. And it’s object orientated learning, where kids who want to ‘be a mechanic, police, nurse, accountant’ can then start to go down that path from an earlier age, or at the least get a more broader or deeper understanding of their choosen field at an earlier age.

Kids need to use webineers ect to learn what they are already currently being taught; an area of maths for example could be taught from a physics or finance point of view rather than the single example that a ‘physical teacher’ would give. Some kids like physics others like finance.
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June 22, 2014 10:23pm
Harriet

Mike, cricko is usually ok, but sometimes he turns up drunk. That used to happen under his old name – Beryl.
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June 22, 2014 10:25pm
mike tan

Harriet,

I upticked out of general agreement, but i think that the teaching force could potentially become much slimmer, because the internet based learning takes up so much of the labor involved in teaching, the content and all the related expenses is already there, only a directive, supplementary role would be required. The individualized nature of the learning may even get to a point where it is no longer necessary to have a daily meeting place to learn together. This brings with it its own set of ethical questions, for example, is school only about learning the curriculum? How valuable is the social element (do the risks outweigh the positives?) etc

Assuming that it does get to a spot where the classroom is not needed anymore, this would free up a lot of capital expenditure which could be redirected into the new system of assistance rather than production.
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June 22, 2014 10:30pm
cricko

Harriet,

and when unable to attack the argument, attack the messenger.

What a truley pathetic article you are.

Goodnight, and good luck to your family.

PS. mike tan has a brain, but he needs morons like you springing to his defence like he needs a hole
in his head.
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June 22, 2014 10:34pm
Gulag1917

Iraq was invaded for the sake of “Israel and oil.”
Dick Cheney

“it’s more dangerous being America’s ally than its enemy.”
Henry Kissinger

The Iraq War cost over $1 trillion – financed by loans from China and Japan.
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June 23, 2014 6:06am
Northland Wahine

Up early and skimming thru last night posts and having a wee chuckle…

I’m the first to advocate that Maori has to step up and acknowledge the negative stats where we are over represented and do something positive to turn them around.

However here’s something so that do many choose not to acknowledge when dismissing the whole Maori race. What has changed from 50 years ago when they think Maori were happy? Some say full employment…some say there wasn’t any benefits back then. I believe both play a huge part to our negative stats. Realistically we are better educated now because 50 years ago we left school to work in factories, railway, forestry and roadworks en mass. But the white elephant in the room is… We are less Maori blooded than we were 50 years ago. I don’t believe that so called Maori warrior gene is that strong that it over dominates our white peaceful blood (she says with tongue so firmly in her cheek.)

I saw the same sense of entitlement in the UK 10 years ago amongst the white Europeans there who lived in slums, on benefits and bugger all employment. Violence towards each other was and is high, just like we see with Maori.

And I doubt very few acknowledge the common denominator…
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June 23, 2014 6:50am
mikenmild

I’m not sure that gets us much closer to an answer. You are basically saying that welfare entitlements breed crime. If we were to accept that as a premise, then surely the next question to follow is why Maori are disproportionately represented on the welfare rolls?
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June 23, 2014 7:37am
Griff

CULTURE
Mike and no its not the pre contact one its a bastardized one that has evolved since
Entitlement.
You honkeys owe us
Insulated
We are separate Maori first
Violence
We are warriors violence is something to be proud of.
Irresponsibility
Act indiscriminately the “government” not us pays .

Encouraging them, as many of their leaders do. to act under these cultural imperatives reenforces the decline of Maori into the festering crap lives they live and the damage they inflict on us as a society.
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June 23, 2014 8:01am
Northland Wahine

Better educated doesn’t equate to better skilled for employment and times have changed so have to adapt to this. Our family dynamics have changed partially due to unemployment, and where as once upon a time, if your girl got hapu, you embraced that child with open arms, not a thought given to the cost. Now? Get her down to winz and go on the bene. Are our girls more promiscuous than others? I really don’t think so, probably less careful…

Seriously Mike, I see lots of things we can do differently but all need to be tackled, not just one.
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June 23, 2014 8:09am

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