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June 11, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 11 June 2014

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General Debate

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kowtow

Hey bigots,this is happening today in secular modern Aotearoa…….let’s have some of your false compassion for the deceased and anger hatred and bile for the owners of the institution.

Oops ,no point, it’s not run by dirty filthy vicious Catholic nuns. Nothing to see here ,move along please.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/10142190/Rest-home-strep-A-infection-kills-five
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June 11, 2014 3:10pm
SPC

kowtow, public health officials praised management for quickly providing vaccinations to the residents of the rest home to contain the outbreak.
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June 11, 2014 3:13pm
kowtow

milksop…..don’t come the grammar fascist.None of us are fucken Dostoyevskies,makes you appear a bigger prick than you already are.

Ryan. Not alcohol. I’m talking about the introduction of foreign and specifically drug culture. Alcohol being part and parcel of our culture.Drugs more of a sixties innovation.
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June 11, 2014 3:13pm
kowtow

SPC

Ah that makes the 5 deaths OK then?
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June 11, 2014 3:14pm
mikenmild

Sorry kowtow, I was mainly commenting that your point about increasing violence was nonsense. Pointing out your infelicity was just an aside.
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June 11, 2014 3:16pm
SPC

DG, our government has a focus on rehabilitation and the crime rate is falling here too. Ending drug addiction and enabling work is the surest way.
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June 11, 2014 3:17pm
kowtow

Len Brown engaging with Maori wardens in his response to that murder. Bit of a hint as to the accused,wouldn’t you say Watson?
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June 11, 2014 3:17pm
Komata

Dirty Harry:

From memory, klark spent approximately NZD 14 Million of our money (possibly even more), ‘currying favour’ (aka ‘donating’ to the UN ‘on behalf of the people of New Zealand’, who knew nothing about it) over the years of her reign in NZ. Nothing was ever said, of course, cos’ it’s different when labour do it. These ‘donations’ only emerged after she had left to take up her ill-gotten posting. IMHO Mr Cunnliffe really should be very careful when he starts asking these questions; boomerangs have been known to return to those who throw them . . .
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June 11, 2014 3:22pm
dime

“You made allusion to those on the DPF through their so called enablers.
LIke Paula Bennett.?
Am glad to see unlike Manolo you don’t prejudge the issue suggesting they must be PIs or Maoris.
Good stuff.!
Or do you.?”

Dime is no Paula Bennett fan. Happy shes made some inroads into getting people off the DPB. Still not impressed she let that violent thug live at her house instead of being in prison on remand.

As for what these 2 youngsters are.. Willie Jackson said hes pretty sure he knows who they are and that they are maori.

When i hear of crimes like this, if Dime was placing a bet it would be in that direction simply because the stats tell us so.

Just like when a plane explodes i think “POS mOslem”
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June 11, 2014 3:29pm
Longknives

“Len Brown engaging with Maori wardens”
“Willie Jackson said hes pretty sure he knows who they are”

Those TAB odds are shortening by the minute lads! Reckon any chance of a humble apology from Stephieboy and co??
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June 11, 2014 3:33pm
kowtow

The words Humble and stephieboy don’t belong in the same sentence together.
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June 11, 2014 3:53pm
Fletch

Why the ‘babies-in-a-septic-tank’ story is more than likely a media hoax –

http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingleton/2014/06/09/that-story-about-irish-babies-in-a-septic-tank-is-a-media-hoax/
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June 11, 2014 4:02pm
Manolo

Stephie is just another feminist do-gooder with his head firmly stuck in the sand.
The result of many years of illiberal “education”.
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June 11, 2014 4:09pm
kowtow

No way fletch

As the bigot nasska said the other day ,Corless and the Irish Times must have been leant on by the Church ( where does he get his info from) to retract. Now obviously some dark mysterious evil catholic organisation must be exerting its world wide conspiratorial tentacles and influence to ensure the truth is hidden.

I’m beginning to think an albino must have gone to Bishop Selwyn Home and poisoned the elderly there.You just can’t trust a left footer.
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June 11, 2014 4:11pm
Chuck Bird

There is a good chance that the one charged with murder may get convicted of manslaughter under New Zealand law.
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June 11, 2014 4:11pm
SPC

No one plays the victim better than those claim to be the source of Western Christendom. Nor so quick to gather together and identify someone or some group to target as a threat … A heroic martyr complex, but a paranoid heroic martyr not ready to carry any cross themselves.
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June 11, 2014 4:13pm
RightNow

“Pointing out your infelicity was just an aside.”

I was in Felicity once. Well, more than once actually.
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June 11, 2014 4:17pm
David Garrett

SPC: (re your earlier post, not the 4.13) You wont hear any argument from me against rehab programmes for young and first time offenders…the reality for repeat offenders is though – sadly – NOTHING that has been tried here has worked for them, and that is also the picture internationally.

That famous avuncular grandfather Kim Workman got the go ahead to try HIS “love them and they will become good” theory in the early 90’s. Read the result in Greg Newbold’s paper “Another one bites the dust: Recent initiatives in Correctional Reform in New Zealand.” ‘Australian and New Zealand journal of Criminology’ Vol. 41 3 2008

Newbold is the only criminologist worthy of the name in New Zealand. All the rest are just apologists for criminals, or seek to make us believe life in the 1950’s was no less dangerous than now. Newbold is of the firm opinion that rehabilitation of second or subsequent offenders will be very rare, and will only happen when the offender really wants to reform. No rehab programme for those offenders will be worth a damn Newbold says.

That is of course why we structured three strikes as we did: You get two chances and two warnings….if you offend again in the same manner you go to jail for a long time…(at least 7 years, up to life if the third strike is murder or manslaughter)
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June 11, 2014 4:24pm
SPC

I wonder if anyone is reading anything into the fire alarm going off at the Australian High Commission after Abbott claimed to be a leader of an anti GW movement that included New Zealand without consulting us first?

Is ASIO investigating a breach of their security by … ?
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June 11, 2014 4:30pm
Griff

fletch
You keep bringing up the fact that 796 kids remains are dumped on that site in an unknown location .

Is not a hoax its a headline over exaggeration typical of the msm.

The 20 or so kids remains found In a disused and unmarked septic tank is what started the woman looking into the death certificates of children who died in the place.

It brought up the fact that there is no official record of a burial site for 795 children.of any kind.

Where are the remains? Probably dumped on that site somewhere in mass graves including those in the shittank.

Or

Did they practice cannibalism or run the boiler on the bits? is that why there are no graves ?

Such sickness shouldn’t surprise in a cult that eats a dead persons flesh and drinks his blood as part of its weekly brainwash and shame sessions.
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June 11, 2014 4:31pm
stephieboy

The words intelligence and kowtow ( and Manolo ) don’t belong in the same sentence together.
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June 11, 2014 4:33pm
Viking2

Big upset in US politics

US House Majority Leader Eric Cantor has lost in his Republican primary election to a little-known economics professor, a stunning upset for the No. 2 Republican in the House and a major victory for the ultraconservative tea party movement.

Cantor, viewed as a possible successor to House Speaker John Boehner, was taken down by a political novice with little money named Dave Brat. His win marked the biggest triumph this year for tea party supporters who until a few years ago backed Cantor, a former state legislator who rose to Majority Leader in 2011.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/10145170/Big-upset-in-US-politics
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June 11, 2014 4:37pm
SPC

DG, most will accept that rehabilitation is not an all inclusive approach, for how long it is seen as viable an option as to the extent of recidivism is where there are differences of opinion. I don’t think an insurance type approach to risk management would find a balance where at three strikes the rehabilitation would so soon be discarded. It’s just that for some types of offending the risk to public safety is too high.
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June 11, 2014 4:38pm
Fletch

You keep bringing up the fact that 796 kids remains are dumped on that site in an unknown location .

And I keep on bringing up the fact that no such number has been found. Neither have they been dumped. The 796 is the number of birth certificates for children who may have died while staying there.
Have you even read the article?

Today the Irish Times has published a reader’s letter that has further undercut the story. Finbar McCormick, a professor of geography at Queen’s University Belfast, sharply admonished the media for describing the children’s last resting place as a septic tank. He added: “The structure as described is much more likely to be a shaft burial vault, a common method of burial used in the recent past and still used today in many part of Europe.

“In the 19th century, deep brick-lined shafts were constructed and covered with a large slab which often doubled as a flatly laid headstone. These were common in 19th-century urban cemeteries…..Such tombs are still used extensively in Mediterranean countries. I recently saw such structures being constructed in a churchyard in Croatia. The shaft was made of concrete blocks, plastered internally and roofed with large concrete slabs.

“Many maternity hospitals in Ireland had a communal burial place for stillborn children or those who died soon after birth. These were sometimes in a nearby graveyard but more often in a special area within the grounds of the hospital.”

For anyone familiar with Ireland (I was brought up there in the 1950s and 1960s), the story of nuns consciously throwing babies into a septic tank never made much sense. Although many aforesaid nuns might have been holier-than-thou harridans, they were nothing if not God-fearing and therefore unlikely to treat human remains with the sort of outright blasphemy implied in the septic tank story.

[…]

At the end of the day, the verifiable facts that have emerged so far amount merely to a strong story for the media of one small country. The one “fact” that turned all this from a disturbing national story to a screaming global sensation is one that is almost certainly false.

So it isn’t a septic tank. it was more than likely a communal burial site, which was quite common, and which, yes, you would expect to find skeletons in.
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June 11, 2014 4:41pm
David Garrett

SPC: If I could understand you I might even agree…have another crack at it…
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June 11, 2014 4:44pm
Viking2

Microsoft fights US warrant for user emails

Microsoft, one of the world’s largest email providers, is resisting a government search warrant to compel the firm to turn over customer data held in a server located overseas.

In what could be a landmark case, the Redmond, Washington, company is arguing that such a warrant is not justified by law or the Constitution. Microsoft and other tech firms also fear that if the government prevails and can reach across borders, foreign individuals and businesses will flee to their non-US competitors.

The materials sought by the government are emails held in a Microsoft data centre in Ireland and connected to a drug-trafficking investigation.

more..http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/60098183/microsoft-fights-us-warrant-for-user-emails.html

It just keeps on getting worse doesn’t it.
Won’t need a new cable to the states soon. Better to have one to china or India. Why would anyone trust the US anymore.

The battle, which began in December when a magistrate judge in New York issued the warrant, also raises significant economic and diplomatic issues for US companies that store mounds of data for others as part of the burgeoning cloud computing industry, which has been battered in the wake of revelations about its co-operation with US spy agencies conducting broad surveillance.

“If the government’s position prevails, it would have huge detrimental impacts on American cloud companies that do business abroad,” said Michael Vatis, a lawyer who co-authored a friend-of-the-court brief for internet service provider Verizon, which operates data centres overseas and which filed its brief Tuesday in support of Microsoft.

Microsoft’s efforts to push back against the government in this and other cases, company officials say, predate the disclosures by former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden about the reach of US surveillance. But the revelations, which began a year ago, “certainly put a premium on demonstrating to people that we are fighting,” said one Microsoft official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorised to speak for the company.

The legal issues are novel – a classic example of how technology has lapped the law. Only a few years ago, US email providers held their data in the United States, so there was no issue of whether a court had jurisdiction to issue a warrant for the data.

more..http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/60098183/microsoft-fights-us-warrant-for-user-emails.html
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June 11, 2014 4:48pm
Viking2

No Petone stadium for Wellington Phoenix

The Petone Arena plan is dead after Hutt City councillors voted unanimously to drop the proposal this afternoon.

Public feedback had been overwhelmingly negative on the idea, which would have seen a 12,000-seat stadium for Phoenix football club built over half of the Petone Recreation Ground.

Loss of green space, loss of playing fields for local sports clubs, and lack of parking were the most common complaints.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/10145482/No-Petone-stadium-for-Wellington-Phoenix
====================
so the Hutt Councillors continue with their stirling efforts to keep rates under control and debt low.

Great Stuff.
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June 11, 2014 4:52pm
kowtow

stehpie ,you just put kowtow and intelligence in the same sentence but said they didn’t belong together in the same sentence.How intelligent was that?
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June 11, 2014 4:56pm
mikenmild

Yes V2, the Petone Arena was a dog of a proposal. If your problem with Westpac Stadium is that the crowds are too small, you don’t solve it by going and building a smaller stadium.
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June 11, 2014 4:57pm
Griff

Kow tow going about drug culture is his usually standard
😆
Alcohol is not relevant as a drug because its part of his conservative culture.

It fulls the jails, courts psychiatric units, and hospitals with piss soaked idiots as a result of alcohol attributable self harm and harm to everyone around them.

We would save a fortune if all we have to do is pay a few tens of thousand of vague excessive stoners and junkies the dole instead.

Alcohol is a drug and is also a recreational drug that you chose to take and us such should be judged like any other recreational drug.

Its level of sanction should be proportional to the harm it does.

Especially the harm it does to those around the drunkards of society.

——————————-

DG is right the Chardonnay socialists and many of the better off have absolutely no idea of the depravity of these family’s who create feral monster kids.

They are not just exposed to violence and depravity they are funkin deliberately trained in it by their whanua
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June 11, 2014 5:00pm
kowtow

‘Alcohol is part of his “conservative” culture.’

Not sure it’s got anything to do with conservatism,but too right it’s deeply ingrained in our culture ,so keep your fucken hands off it.
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June 11, 2014 5:09pm
kowtow

Cantor gone and immigration is a big part of that.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/06/10/TOP-8-CONSEQUENCES-OF-CANTORS-DEFEAT
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June 11, 2014 5:10pm
SPC

During prohibition in the 1920’s USA, Republicans made a big issue of Smith the Democratic Presidential candidate being Catholic and … a likely drunk.
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June 11, 2014 5:12pm
Chuck Bird

I read that the accused supporters are yelling out, “I love you” and “stay strong”. What is wrong with the judge. They should be tossed in the cells for a while and then apologize to the the victims family and the Court. If they don’t leave in for a few day for contempt of court.
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June 11, 2014 5:12pm
kowtow

SPC

And your point is……..
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June 11, 2014 5:14pm
SPC

The Republican Tea Party patriot WASP’s opposing “wet” Catholic migrants to the USA, what has changed?
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June 11, 2014 5:15pm
Griff

Not sure it’s got anything to do with conservatism,but too right it’s deeply ingrained in our culture

😆
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism
Conservatism as a political and social philosophy promotes retaining traditional social institutions. A person who follows the philosophies of conservatism is referred to as a traditionalist or conservative. Some conservatives seek to preserve things as they are, emphasizing stability and continuity, while others, called reactionaries, oppose modernism and seek a return to “the way things were”

Q.E.D
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June 11, 2014 5:17pm
kowtow

The legal status of the migrants?The wetbacks are illegal immigrants. Religion doesn’t matter.If that’s what you’re alluding to.
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June 11, 2014 5:19pm
SPC

The Republican WASP fear of becoming a demographic minority, and the European Catholics who take their side … – meanwhile the Pope clears Europeans out of the Vatican one post at a time.
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June 11, 2014 5:24pm
nasska

The link provided by Fletch @ 4.02pm leads to an article by, ” Eamonn Fingleton Contributor A sharp eye on media bias, official propaganda, and globaloney”, included under the “business” section of Forbes…..for reasons that so far escape me.

Predictably the besieged Papists, both here & Ireland, are trying desperately to frame the debate. 796 bodies weren’t found at Tuam…….the structure wasn’t a septic tank but a “shaft burial vault”. Should the spin continue it will have become a foundation for an abandoned cathedral come Friday.

Regrettably for the Godaddled I could care less whether the bodies were buried or ground up for fertiliser as was probably the case. Contrary to those who take the supernatural seriously when you’re dead you’re dead & no amount of chanting, incense or blessings is going to make any difference to the fact.

What, as I indicated yesterday, concerns me is the cruel treatment meted out to the unwed mothers & their wretched babies by the religious arseholes who were supposedly charged with their welfare.

It stinks to the high heavens you fantasise about.
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June 11, 2014 5:27pm
SGA

Fletch at 4:41 pm

He added: “The structure as described is much more likely to be a shaft burial vault, a common method of burial used in the recent past and still used today in many part of Europe.

Maybe he’s right, but it doesn’t sound as though he’s even seen a photo of it, let alone been there, so it’s hard to place too much confidence in his opinion at this point.

Be that as it may, the good ol’ days weren’t necessarily so.
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June 11, 2014 5:27pm
stephieboy

Griff , the quote about “conservatism”needs revising and updating to include the embracing of conspiracy theory and racial bigotry.
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June 11, 2014 5:29pm
Lucia Maria

Dime,

Much earlier in the day, you were asking about “Moslems”. It’s an old fashioned way of spelling “Muslims”. Probably means the people using it have been reading some history.
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June 11, 2014 5:33pm
David Garrett

Nasska: I tend to agree…and this “shaft burial vault” as apparently found in Croatia sounds more than a little suss to me…In behind my house out here I have a structure than sounds very similar to what 20 or 420 or 796 baby skeletons were found…a square concrete tank buried in the ground with a small concrete hatch on top…It is used very time I take a poo or have a shower…Ireland is not Croatia…

Mind you, as someone said above, the God fearing Nuns would have had some trouble throwing any body into a septic tank…But then these were cursed babies born of fallen women, and still bearing the stain of original sin…
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June 11, 2014 5:41pm
Lucia Maria

I’m reading the thread backwards now, and I see why I didn’t notice SPC’s 2:29 comment when I searched for “Moslems” – should have searched “Moslem” instead! Sorry about the redundant comment, this one and the previous one.
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June 11, 2014 5:42pm
nasska

On the same day the Catholic spin machine reached full revs the Washington Post agreed that the number of skeletons were less than first reports claim. Fair enough, but it too starts looking further into the story:

….”So it’s all a big misunderstanding?

Not so fast. No one is challenging Corless’s archival research, which appears to show that nearly 800 babies and children died at the home over a period of 40 years, without burial records. Locals believe that they are buried in an unofficial graveyard at the back of the building, where they have built a small grotto and placed flowers. One expert on health and mortality in Ireland believes that the death rates are much higher than they ought to have been and deserve further investigation. Contemporary debates in Ireland’s parliament reveal that children born out of wedlock in Ireland in the 1920s had a mortality rate five times higher than normal, in part because of semi-deliberate neglect. In some years in some institutions, the mortality rate for such children seems to have been above 50 percent.”….

Lovely.

Ref: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/06/09/the-truth-behind-irelands-dead-babies-scandal-five-questions/
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June 11, 2014 5:49pm
Floyd60

The NZ Herald provides a rare glimpse in to the scripted nature of Key’s interactions with media. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11271474

We now know that when he says “The information I have is that …” he really means it because that’s all he has been told by his handlers. I guess he preserves plausible deniability if he needs it in the future.

“The briefing email warned Mr Key TV3 had been filming 11 UN diplomats and support staff given a free trip from New York to Queenstown – a potential source of embarrassment because the Government said it would not throw money at its bid for a UN Security Council seat.

Mr Key appeared to be told to downplay the visit by saying it was “focused on sustainable agriculture”.

TV3 later revealed the UN group had been taken sightseeing, shopping and on a Shotover Jet ride.

The Prime Minister told reporters the cost of New Zealand’s bid was dwarfed by the amount spent by Australia and other countries.

The briefing email suggested New Zealand had been caught unawares by Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott’s proposal to form an international coalition of centre-right Governments – including New Zealand – to oppose United States plans for stricter climate change policies.

Mr Key was advised to say: “I’ve not talked to Tony Abbott about this” and to emphasise New Zealand’s record on climate change policies.

One of his talking points was: “This Government takes climate change seriously.”

The briefing notes also warned Mr Key not to get involved in a battle between the Bay of Plenty Regional Council and community groups over whether the wreck of the Rena is to be left on Astrolabe Reef.

“It’s … likely to be a contentious decision … and quite likely to be the subject of legal appeals, so essentially stay as far removed as possible from it,” the notes said.”
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June 11, 2014 5:57pm
kowtow

Opposing Obummer.That Tony Abbott comes across better by the day!
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June 11, 2014 6:05pm
Lucia Maria

Nasska,

Predictably the besieged Papists, both here & Ireland, are trying desperately to frame the debate. 796 bodies weren’t found at Tuam…….the structure wasn’t a septic tank but a “shaft burial vault”. Should the spin continue it will have become a foundation for an abandoned cathedral come Friday.

Regrettably for the Godaddled I could care less whether the bodies were buried or ground up for fertiliser as was probably the case. Contrary to those who take the supernatural seriously when you’re dead you’re dead & no amount of chanting, incense or blessings is going to make any difference to the fact.

Interesting that you don’t care how the bodies were buried … yet, your previous paragraph is a critique of what you consider an attempt to frame the debate – never mind that the whole thing has been blown out proportion in the first place, which you should agree with, given that you don’t care how the bodies were buried.

What, as I indicated yesterday, concerns me is the cruel treatment meted out to the unwed mothers & their wretched babies by the religious arseholes who were supposedly charged with their welfare.

Finding that hard to believe. It seems that this story gives you a cudgel that you otherwise wouldn’t have to then put in a couple of whacks about the supposed cruel treatment of the unwed mothers and their babies – which was society wide at the time. Everyone was religious in that society – atheists were rare, and probably ostracised in the same way or worse than unwed mothers.

It stinks to the high heavens you fantasise about.

I wasn’t going to comment anymore, but I’ve realised your paragraph above makes no sense. What stinks to high heaven – the way the children were buried, which you apparently don’t care about?

If those children were born into a pagan society, such as Ancient Rome, to unwed mothers, a large proportion of them would have been left out to die. In New Zealand, those babies who are not wanted by their mothers are being killed by abortion, as has been mentioned on GD a number times now. In pre-Waitangi Treaty, Maori society, those babies very likely would have been eaten.

Is it your contention that a society whereby unwed mothers and their babies were looked after by nuns so that at least had a chance, is worse than abortion and worse than death by exposure? Or is it that you expected nuns 100 years ago to be .. what? Abortion doctors? Or maybe you would have preferred they gave the unwed mothers money to live on as we do now, via the DPB? I’m just wondering what you expected of them. The government of the time wasn’t handing out money to unwed mothers as we do now. What did you expect of the nuns? What is this “cruel treatment” you keep mentioning?
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June 11, 2014 6:05pm
kowtow

“What, as I indicated yesterday, concerns me is the cruel treatment meted out to the unwed mothers & their wretched babies by the religious arseholes who were supposedly charged with their welfare.”

Bullshit. It’s just another chance for you to gleefully expound your bigotry.
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June 11, 2014 6:10pm
Griff

Under the microscope
Must of the catholic care institutions have a justly applied name for varying degrees of depravity…
.
.
Catholic school girls spring to mind.
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June 11, 2014 6:12pm
mikenmild

Nice apologetic Lucia. Totally unconvincing though.
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June 11, 2014 6:16pm
David Garrett

Lucia: Well, I was born with the mark of the Papists…actually I suppose more accurately I should say I still bear the mark of the Papists…and whatever Nasska may think – according to you – I care very much how these poor innocents were treated, both in life and in death./…And it doesn’t really matter if it was 20 babies, 120 or the 800 odd that is the upper estimate.

But you are the doctrinal one so educate us: Would poorly educated religiously indoctrinated Nuns care where the bodies of children born of unwed mothers were buried? Better be careful with your answer…
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June 11, 2014 6:21pm
nasska

….”Is it your contention that a society whereby unwed mothers and their babies were looked after by nuns so that at least had a chance, is worse than abortion and worse than death by exposure?”….

A quick death or a slow one seems to be the difference. Coin tossing territory.

But you miss my point…..there wasn’t any need for those kids to die. The government/state were miserly with their funding but it was still between one pound & ten shillings per baby per week. Nothing was offered for free to the mothers…..they could have the baby & walk out with it if they could stump up a hundred pounds….an absolute fortune at the time.

Alternatively they could work it off in the laundry & look after their babies until they could be adopted out. Before this could happen they signed over full rights to adopt out the kid to the church.

Therefore the so called underfunded institutions had revenues from the state, the women were working for them for peanuts for years while they charged commercial rates for their labours. Then they sold the toddlers to adoptive parents in the USA while charging the adopters for the services they provided up until that time.

It was a racket pure & simple conducted without charity or morals.
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June 11, 2014 6:25pm
mikenmild

Baby racketeering and exploitation of the most vulnerable people at hand. Bury the kids in the garden if they die.
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June 11, 2014 6:28pm
Griff

This tells me a lot about the mindset and lack of deep thought behind the good sisters missive.

Everyone was religious in that society – atheists were rare, and probably ostracised in the same way or worse than unwed mothers.

The place was a corrupt festering shit hole because the church was setting behavioral standards.
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June 11, 2014 6:30pm
David Garrett

I should add that when this scandal first became public, I was very impressed that the current bishop of the Diocese has said the whole thing is a disgraceful stain, and there needs to be a full public enquiry…that is certainly a considerable advance on the Holy Mother Church’s usual reaction when disgraceful revelations are made…
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June 11, 2014 6:32pm
Lucia Maria

David,

But you are the doctrinal one so educate us: Would poorly educated religiously indoctrinated Nuns care where the bodies of children born of unwed mothers were buried? Better be careful with your answer…

I would assume so. Though, maybe they were also concerned with the living, so being able to put bodies to rest in a makeshift crypt would have been better than spending the time digging graves. I’ve dug a grave for a cat before, and it takes a while to dig deep enough.
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June 11, 2014 6:36pm
David Garrett

Where have you gone Lucia? Getting advice on what to say from Fr. O’Flaherty??

Ah, I see you are back…so you believe a Croatian style burial vault – which just happens to closely resemble a septic tank – was built out the back of this particular nunnery? Really?

and of course you are right…lifting the lid and shoving into the septic tank would indeed have been much easier than digging a grave…let alone hundreds of them
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June 11, 2014 6:37pm
kowtow

You bigots find it very easy to point the finger at disgusting catholic Ireland,but every country has had its problems,to a greater or lesser degree and I invite comparative statistics for deaths in similar instituions ,secular or otherwise.It is a fact that orphanages had vastly disproportionate death rates from the rest of the population. This was not unique to Catholic Ireland.

And in relation to adoption/shame and unmarried mothers……

“Australia, Canada, the United States and New Zealand all had similar postwar adoption practices, related to the stigma attached to being an unmarried mother. (Else, 1997)”

From
http://www.originsnsw.com/mentalhealth/id2.html
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June 11, 2014 6:42pm
Lucia Maria

Mike,

Nice apologetic Lucia. Totally unconvincing though.

Unconvincing of what?

I have family members hastily buried in Kazakhstan. My uncle, a number of years back, took a trip there to put up a memorial over the grave, some 60 years or so after my grandmother and uncles and aunts were buried there, because he cared enough and had the means to do so. Where are the family members of the children of the unwed mothers?
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June 11, 2014 6:42pm
David Garrett

..And bring me up to speed with the current doctrine Lucia…IIRC the souls of unbaptized babies would go to Limbo…but I understand Limbo has been abolished – perhaps as long ago as Vatican II… no, I think it was later than that…so what happens to such souls now? Cant be purgatory just because the poor little buggers still bear the stain of original sin, surely?

Kowtow: I find it very easy to believe that the death rates at orphanages – particularly in cold countries like Ireland at the beginning of the 20th Century – were much higher than now….that is an entirely different issue from how the bodies of the poor little mites were treated..

Lucia: You cant be fucking serious…its the FAMILIES’ fault?? Its the deaths and the burials we are asking about…
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June 11, 2014 6:45pm
nasska

….” Where are the family members of the children of the unwed mothers?”…..

Probably sitting in the same houses they kicked their pregnant daughters out of.

Kicked them out because of the moral teachings of the Catholic church.

The teachings to the effect that being raped & then pregnant was a mortal sin the girl should have to bear.
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June 11, 2014 6:48pm
kowtow

http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/20/russia-orphanage-adopt-children-opinions-columnists-medialand.html
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June 11, 2014 6:48pm
Lucia Maria

David,

and of course you are right…lifting the lid and shoving into the septic tank would indeed have been much easier than digging a grave…let alone hundreds of them

Yep, that’s what happens when death rates are high. Niceties go out the window.

I still want to get my dad’s body moved from Makara. What seemed ok many years ago when I wasn’t Catholic, just doesn’t sit rightly with me anymore. One of these supposedly reusable graves. Gives me the heebie jeebies now. It was what the family could afford 20 odd years ago. Anyway, it’s on the list.
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June 11, 2014 6:53pm
kowtow

DG

The septic tank issue has already been covered.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393?page=3
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June 11, 2014 6:54pm
nasska

Arrrh & begorrah!….it’s the old “but look over there…..he’s done it too” defence.
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June 11, 2014 6:55pm
David Garrett

What, is your late father among PROTESTANTS?? Yep, you’d better get that fixed PDQ…God knows what penance he is doing in the meantime because you didn’t bury him in the right place…
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June 11, 2014 6:56pm
nasska

You should do stand up DG. 🙂
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June 11, 2014 7:03pm
David Garrett

Kowtow: I read that link (thank you)…Frankly my reading of it is that it raises more questions than it answers: how big was the “sewage tank”? A tank designed to take the shit and grey water from an institution would be very much larger than the still fairly large tank out the back of my place…there is no mention in that story of the mythical “Croatian style burial vault”…that appears to have been an “explanation” for a few days, but has now quietly died…

But please tell me your doctrinal position…I know Lucia is a hair shirt wearing (at least mythically) Catholic, but I don’t take enough notice of the religious threads to remember your position on the spectrum…
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June 11, 2014 7:04pm
Lucia Maria

Nasska,

Arrrh & begorrah!….it’s the old “but look over there…..he’s done it too” defence.

Nope, it’s not.

Are you arguing for a standard of care? If so, comparisons and norms of standards of care have to be made.

We are not comparing like with like here. A modern wealthy NZ will put any country to shame.

Love your hit and run (and little support) comments, btw. Make the apologist’s work hard.
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June 11, 2014 7:04pm
big bruv

” so being able to put bodies to rest in a makeshift crypt ‘

A makeshift crypt????? they were tossed into a septic tank.

FFS! Lucia, is there nothing that you will not excuse the evil catholic church for?

You really are one nasty piece of work.
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June 11, 2014 7:07pm
Lucia Maria

David,

What, is your late father among PROTESTANTS?? Yep, you’d better get that fixed PDQ…God knows what penance he is doing in the meantime because you didn’t bury him in the right place…

As from what you’ve said, your father was a God-fearing man, even though he was a Protestant. Forget whatever you’ve been told as a child -Heaven is not denied to Protestants. However, our prayers for our deceased do help. I still pray for my dad – you need to pray for yours.
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June 11, 2014 7:07pm
Griff

Go back to the old times when the church and its morel teachings led society. A time when systematically sodomizing young boys. raping your wife . beating you servants to death was not considered a crime and when the compassion of the church meant you could be incarcerated with enforced to labor for life just for being raped.
Lovely and you blame progressives for ruining society by changing this paradigm,.
😆
else id fucken cry
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June 11, 2014 7:09pm
David Garrett

Still waiting on the answer to the “where do the souls of unbaptized babies go?” Lucia…is Fr. busy??

There must be a website: http://www.currentcatholicdoctrine.com or something similar, surely??

Forget my prayers for my father Lucia…Answer the many questions you have been asked…where do the souls of the babies who used to go to Limbo before it was abolished is the one I’d really like to know…If you don’t know, then say so…but you seem to have appointed yourself’s KB’s resident expert on things Catholic…
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June 11, 2014 7:10pm
Longknives

Oh it’s Catholic Bashing night is it??
I will glove up- Bring it on!
Bottle of Scotch in one hand and Rosary Beads in the other….
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June 11, 2014 7:16pm
nasska

Faith be upon us! 🙂
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June 11, 2014 7:18pm
David Garrett

‘Knives: No, at least on my part it is not “Catholic bashing night”…But Lucia – and it seems Kowtow – have stated their positions as defenders of the Catholic church…surely it is therefore incumbent upon them to either answer the questions they have been asked or at least say “I don’t know the answer” ??
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June 11, 2014 7:19pm
Lucia Maria

Sorry, David.

I’m alternating between here and dishes and dinner at the moment. I’d need a clear evening to answer everything clearly.

I don’t know where the souls of unbaptised babies go when they die – theologians have been debating that for centuries.

It is the 30th anniversary of the suicide of my best friend today. Always ties in with when Muldoon called that snap-election. She was unbaptised as far as I know and she killed herself. Only recently I realised that God was not bound by time, therefore I could still pray for her soul. For years I thought that she was completely lost, so I had to put her out of my mind completely. But it seems the Church is always re-evaluating what is possible and likely with God, and even now suicides are not condemned to Hell because it’s dependent on whether they were totally in their right mind or not at the time.
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June 11, 2014 7:20pm
goldnkiwi

Floyd60 (71 comments) says:

June 11th, 2014 at 5:57 pm

Does it also not say that they were also going to the Fieldays? Sounds like a sustainable agriculture component to me, with a bit of tourism thrown in. What a good minister of Tourism the PM is, pragmatic and multi faceted visits.
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June 11, 2014 7:28pm
Pete George

I know it’s something you have strong beliefs on Lucia but what you have said about how you’ve handled your friend’s suicide seems very strange to me.

If I wasn’t baptised and obviously haven’t killed myself do you have to put me out of your mind completely?

I might have been token baptised. I might have attempted suicide. I don’t know what difference any of that should make if there was a god.
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June 11, 2014 7:31pm
David Garrett

goldnkiwi: Wherever the souls of unbaptized babies go, I’m pretty sure its not to Fieldays…

Lucia: No dear..you cant have listened to those “On becoming a Catholic” lectures very carefully…Where the souls of dead babies go hasn’t been debated “for centuries”…in fact for centuries the answer was “Limbo…which is not purgatory but not Heaven either”…Its only been a matter for debate since it was declared (God knows how) that there actually was no Limbo after all…which happened sometime between Vatican II in 1965 and the 70’s… do keep up…we rely on you here to have the answers to such matters…
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June 11, 2014 7:37pm
Pete George

“God-fearing” is a very strange term, especially when those who use it also seem to talk about love of their god as well. Fear and love of the same thing seems incompatible.
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June 11, 2014 7:41pm
big bruv

“I don’t know where the souls of unbaptised babies go when they die – theologians have been debating that for centuries.”

To make such a statement Lucia you are either a liar, or incredibly uneducated about matters to do with your thoroughly evil church.

The Catholic church used to teach that the souls of unbaptized children were suspended in limbo, goodness knows how much torment this put the parents of these babies through, if it was not enough to have lost a child they also has the fucking Catholic church adding to their misery with this type of mental torment.

Only comparatively recently (in our lifetime) has the Church changed its position on this, only now do they at least offer the grieving parents the “solace” that their dead child is supposedly in heaven.

Mind you, don’t thank the Church for this, remember these are the scum who allow Cardinal Bernard Law to carry on living in Rome in church provided accommodation, the same Bernard Law who systematically covered up thousands of cases of child abuse.
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June 11, 2014 7:42pm
stephieboy

I saw a remarkable Polish film today Ida.Absolutely stunning and beautifully shot in monochrome capturing the austere still but luminous winter Polish rural landscape. It explores the life of eighteen year old Anna a novice at a convent where she has orphaned as child. during the war The film is set in 1962.

Through her Aunt Wanda they begin a voyage of discovery learning the fate of her true parents ,Jews who perished in the Holocaust . Her Aunt happens to be a Public prosecutor with the Communist regime but becomes disillusioned with her work.Together they uncover Anna’s real identity,Ida and what became of her parents.The quest also examines the conflict ‘Ida ” must resolve between the world outside , the truth about herself and the Convent that saved her.Her dilemma is
poignantly and sensitively handled including the role of the Catholic church during the dark period of the Holocaust . The film did justice to the moral complexity Ida faced . Also there were many Catholics and poles who did the decent think for Jews who were hunted down by the Nazis and SS.

Some didn’t of course but one needs to realize the penalty for harboring and hiding Jews was death for the whole family or religious communities.

Five stars and a highlight for this year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXhCaVqB0x0&feature=kp
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June 11, 2014 7:46pm
goldnkiwi

No DG I was replying to the UN delegates in Queenstown or thought I was.

I have been to the Fieldays and it isn’t that sort of hell.
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June 11, 2014 7:47pm
publicwatchdog

PRESS RELEASE: Epsom Independent candidate ‘Anti-Corruption Whistleblower’ – Grace Haden
To all MPS
11 June 2014
PRESS RELEASE: Epsom Independent candidate ‘anti-Corruption whistle-blower’ Grace Haden
_______________________________________________________
“I have decided to stand as an ‘Independent’ candidate in my home electorate of Epsom. I am seeking accountability from government and to achieve this I will be campaigning for an Independent Commission Against Corruption and the Ratification of the United Nations Convention Against Corruption (UNCAC)”), says ‘anti-Corruption whistle-blower’ Grace Haden. (https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/treaties/CAC/

“I believe that a by-election in Epsom is essential to keep the public spotlight on the corrupt practices surrounding the resignation of ACT MP John Banks, but also shine it on the reality of the widespread corruption which is becoming more and more evident in New Zealand.

“The harsh reality is that New Zealand’s “least corrupt country in the world “tag line is not reality but a perception and as such ,the perception is a false illusion a façade . The perception index (http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/) is frequently misquoted and does not correlate with the fact that we are one of a small handful of countries which have not ratified the United Nations convention against corruption.

“(https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/treaties/CAC/signatories.html)

“Despite New Zealand claiming to be “the least corrupt “ , I , a former long-serving Police officer, (and Police prosecutor), now a licensed Private Investigator, have found it impossible to get corruption investigated in New Zealand by any of the so called public watch dogs. I have discovered that we do not have corruption because we do not define it and turn a wilful blind eye to it, as occurred in the John Banks case. “

“8 years ago, I questioned serious public corruption, provided facts and evidence to support my allegations, but so far, to no avail. I have discovered that Corruption does ruin lives – It tore my family apart.”

“Enough is enough. No one else should have to go through what I have had to endure. Lessons need to be learned from the past and solutions found for the future. Cancer cannot be treated without a diagnosis and this is also true with corruption. Ignore corruption and like cancer it will consume us.

“New Zealand desperately needs an Independent Commission Against Corruption, and I am pleased to report that I now have an MP who will present a petition which I initiated, seeking

“That the House legislate to set up an independent Commission against Corruption, tasked with the prevention, education, detection and prosecution of corruption in New Zealand.”

I have a well-established background in fighting and exposing corruption in New Zealand, these are documented on the following web sites http://www.civiljustice.co.nz/, http://www.transparency.net.nz/, http://www.anticorruption.co.nz/

Grace Haden

………………………
visit us at http://www.transparency.net.nz
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June 11, 2014 7:47pm
David Garrett

goldnkiwi: I was making a joke.

BB: Are you sure the soul of the unbaptized child is in Heaven?? I could be wrong (God knows I have been before!) but I thought they had declared Limbo (I’m sure it had a capital “L”) not to have existed, but they weren’t quite sure where in fact such souls went…making all due allowance for dishes duty chez Lucia, I think she might be right that it is “being debated”…

Oh no…is it full moon again?

So Penny…how did your new acolyte separate from the Police? did she PERF? Resign while suspended on full pay awaiting an ERA hearing??
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June 11, 2014 7:51pm
mikenmild

Penny has a clone.
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June 11, 2014 7:51pm
goldnkiwi

To me the reports re the orphanage sounded like the septic tank was akin to an offal hole on a farm. Hardly a Christian funeral and I do not think of the Catholic Church as poor either, hardly preaching the ethos.
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June 11, 2014 7:54pm
nasska

A suicide bomber blows himself up and finds there is no Allah but Karma is the law of the universe.

“What is going to become of me?” he said to the floating shimmering shape.

“What you have done is pure evil and you must suffer,” said the shape.

“Oh dear,” said the bomber, “how are you going to make me suffer?”

“Well, it’s been decided to send you back and to make you spend a life of misery, loved by nobody and universally hated by everyone. You’re going back as a Muslim again.”
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June 11, 2014 8:07pm
stephieboy

goldnkiwi ,

I suggest go and see the film , read a bit more about Poland during the WW2 and view life as rather more complex than you hitherto have ever thought.!
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June 11, 2014 8:08pm
ShawnLH

“To make such a statement Lucia you are either a liar, or incredibly uneducated about matters to do with your thoroughly evil church.”

Actually Small Sis, Lucia is right. There has never been a theological consensus in the RC regarding that issue, and the idea that unbaptised children go to Hell is simply not mainstream Christian doctrine.

“The Catholic church used to teach that the souls of unbaptized children were suspended in limbo, goodness knows how much torment this put the parents of these babies through,”

None I suspect, as the old (unBiblical) idea of limbo was that it was just a temporary place of rest.

The Atheists on KB should be banned from discussing Christianity of any sort until they can prove that they are not deeply ignorant on the subject.

But. let’s turn this around. BB suddenly cares about how parents grieve for their lost children. Yet atheism has no comfort for them at all, as it has nothing to offer grief except nihilism, despair and meaningless.

Telling parents that God loves all children and all children are saved is far, far more comforting (and true) than telling them that they have no hope, no meaning, no comfort, just cold death and nothingness.

That is why atheism is such a tiny, tiny little movement. From a market pov, it has nothing at all to offer people, no comfort for the suffering, no hope for reunion with our beloved death, no meaning for anything.

Atheism is the religion of nihilism, and nihilism does not sell.
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June 11, 2014 8:12pm
David Garrett

Stephie: And I suggest you stop trying to divert the discussion onto some filim you have seen, and let’s get at some answers about the fate of the souls of dead babies…according of course to the Holy Mother Church…but I see Lucia is AWOL again…

Shawn: You are a fuckwit and a presumptuous one at that…Plenty of us – especially those of us subjected to the indoctrination of the Catholic church (even now I feel compelled to use a capital ‘C”) are more than qualified to debate this and related issues…And I didn’t notice anyone – certainly not me – suggesting that the place of repose of the souls of the unbaptized was hell…
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June 11, 2014 8:15pm
nasska

….” From a market pov, it has nothing at all to offer people, no comfort for the suffering, no hope for reunion with our beloved death, no meaning for anything.”…

Right….I’ve gotcha Shawn.

You finally now see that religion is a load of pudding…..a feel good sop for the masses.

I beat you by over six decades but it doesn’t matter….you got there in the end. 🙂
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June 11, 2014 8:22pm
David Garrett

It’s a cold day in hell when I agree with PG…but his 7.41 seems pretty well said…I have always found myself squirming a bit when that phrase “God fearing” was used…particularly since it’s supposed to all be about love…
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June 11, 2014 8:24pm
Don the Kiwi

Garrett.

Sadly, your extreme bigotry against the Catholic Church that you have displayed over the past few days on the issue of the dead babies in Ireland has wiped out any respect i have had for you – you being the one who, in your ignorant youth, stole the identity of a dead baby. Hypocrisy anyone?? The fact that you have deliberately abandoned the faith that you were raised in is also and indication of your poor decisions of your youth.

But to the question in hand, concerning the Catholic (and other mainstream Christian Churches) teaching on Limbo.
Limbo was simply a possible explanation of the destiny of unbaptised infants when they died, because they were totally innocent – being not of the age of reason, and therefore unable to commit sin . Limbo was described as a place of perfect happiness, except that they did not enjoy the presence of God.

Limbo was never a doctrinal teaching of the Church – Catholic or Protestant. The teaching today – but not declared yet as a confirmed doctrine that I am aware of – is that because unbaptised infants, either through death by natural causes, or murdered through abortion, because they are totally innocent, receive what is known as Baptism of Desire – that is, if they were able to make a decision, and being totally innocent, they would desire Baptism. So they are in Heaven in the presence of a loving and merciful God.

Hope that clarifies things for you WRT the terriblr Catholic church and its teachings.
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June 11, 2014 8:25pm
goldnkiwi

Re the unbaptized babies, I insisted on my faith baptising my daughter before she had an operation (just in case). They tried to tell me that I should probably attend more and that she should take lessons.

I replied with a, ‘your congregation is dying, you should just be pleased that someone wants to give you a possible relevance’. Or words to that effect.

I have never felt the same since they changed the Lord’s Prayer. There should be constants in life that you can come in and out of and I believe ones religion should be one of those.

Stephieboy, all I think is dignity before expediency. A plague situation? Expediency. Inconvenient truth? Not so much.

As for unwed mothers, the men that impregnated them were well aware of the fate they condemned the women and children to. I know who I think should have been damned. Those that sprayed and walked away!!! Mind you marriage was no blessing if you take Angela’s Ashes as representative of Irish life.
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June 11, 2014 8:27pm
Steve (North Shore)

‘filim’
That’s a good word, makes people double take, yep he did it on purpose.
There are films and filims. ssshhh now, Lucy is reading and wondering
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June 11, 2014 8:27pm
Johnboy

Jesus nasska my mum and dad were Free Church of Scotland. Those folk made the Rev. Ian Paisley look like a Papist!

I married my wife (a Catholic) 43 years ago. I had to wait till my folks were back in Scotland before I dared! 🙂

So the wife could have a church wedding I promised to bring the future kids up as Catholics.

Needless to say neither the wife, nor I, nor the sprogs have ever entered the doors of a Catholic church again!

And Shawn dares to lecture us old bastards that have been there done that…The arrogance of youth!! 🙂 🙂
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June 11, 2014 8:32pm

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