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May 8, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 8 May 2014

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hj

”We think population growth is a really good thing for New Zealand,” author Kirdan Lees said, but the flip side was housing pressures.

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/auckland-needs-grow-become-global-city-5958405

2.3 Changing policy expectations
While useful, models do not capture all the effects policymakers expect from immigration.
When New Zealand moved to increase the numbers and skills of immigrants in the 1980s
and 1990s, policymakers appear to have considered that these changes had the potential
to have major beneficial impacts on the New Zealand economy, reinforcing the gains from
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the other liberalising and deregulating economic reforms undertaken during that period.
At that time, it was considered that skills-focused inward migration could: improve growth
by bringing in better quality human capital and addressing skills shortages; improve
international connections and boost trade; help mitigate the effects of population ageing;
and have beneficial effects on fiscal balance. As well as “replacing” departing
New Zealanders and providing particular help with staffing public services (for example,
medical professionals), it was believed that migration flows could be managed so as to
avoid possible detrimental effects (such as congestion or poorer economic prospects) for
existing New Zealanders.

Since then, New Zealand has had substantial gross and net immigration, which has been
relatively skill-focused by international standards. However, New Zealand’s economic
performance has not been transformed. Growth in GDP per capita has been relatively
lacklustre, with no progress in closing income gaps with the rest of the advanced world,
and productivity performance has been poor. It may be that initial expectations about the
potential positive net benefits of immigration were too high.

Based on a large body of new research evidence and practical experience, the consensus
among policymakers now is that other factors are more important for per capita growth
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and productivity than migration and population growth. CGE modelling exercises for
Australia and New Zealand have been influential in reshaping expectations.

7 Conclusion
The macroeconomic effects of immigration in New Zealand are uncertain. There are
plausible arguments but as yet no evidence for large positive or negative impacts of
immigration. Some economists and geographers argue in favour of high rates of
immigration on the grounds that migrants can boost productivity through scale,
agglomeration and innovation. In contrast, some macroeconomists argue that in a low
savings economy, the resource pressures associated with high migration put persistent
upward pressure on real interest and exchange rates, leading to a re-allocation of
resources from more productive tradable sectors to less productive infrastructure, and
reducing productivity growth.

The lack of evidence is not symmetric. New Zealand has had high levels of inward
migration for 20 years now. Arguments for large positive effects invoke the possibility that
there are long lags, or that more positive effects will occur once some higher population
threshold is reached. In this case there is presently no evidence, but a possibility that
positive effects will eventually be reaped. In contrast, stylised facts such as real interest
rates that are high by international standards and a real exchange rate which has not
adjusted to the sustained deterioration in New Zealand’s relative productivity performance
are real and demonstrable, but cannot be definitively linked to migration policy.

http://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/research-policy/wp/2014/14-10
Migration and Macroeconomic
Performance in New Zealand:
Theory and Evidence
Julie Fry
New Zealand Treasury Working Paper 14/10
…………….
Follow The Money
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May 8, 2014 8:01am
martinh

I really hope the latest Roy Morgan poll putting Labour greens ahead aint correct.
National really needs to move on foreign buyers of houses in my opinion
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May 8, 2014 8:03am
hj

NZIER
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOspzgY-Tg0
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May 8, 2014 8:07am
Pete George

There’s a lot of volatility with Roy Morgan polls, except for Labour who seem stuck in the low thirties. National have ranged from 42 to 50 over the last few months.

Details and predictions – Poll volatility
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May 8, 2014 8:07am
SPC

China playing the hegemony card of a regional bully in claiming seas within 200 miles of the coast of Vietnam, Philippines, Indonesia.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-27293314
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May 8, 2014 8:12am
Souvlaki

Espiner on Red Radio is encouragingly objective, compared to his immediate predecessors and certainly Gower et al
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May 8, 2014 8:13am
minus

NZ First MP Denis O’Rourke is facing a police complaint over a fake review posted on the website advertising his classic car hire business.
Parliament’s Speaker, David Carter, is investigating the relationship between the Christchurch-based list MP and his staffer, Stephen James.
They share a home but O’Rourke says they are not in a relationship.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10021245/MP-faces-complaint-over-fake-testimonial

NZ First leader Winston Peters took a swipe at National’s choice for its Clutha Southland candidate, insinuating he is too young for the job.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10021070/Peters-launches-into-Nats-candidate-choice

Age [24 years in this case] may or may not be critical in candidacy for Parliament membership.
But honesty and integrity are, Winston 🙂
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May 8, 2014 8:22am
martinh

good article SPC. Pretty ridiculous how far the chinese claim rights, right up to those countries beaches almost
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May 8, 2014 8:22am
hannity

Jones leaving Labour -hurt them bad.

Labour/ Greens would be 50%+ if Jones stayed

McCully eh- genius.
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May 8, 2014 8:22am
SPC

Putin awaits places focus on the Ukraine Presidential election, saying the Ukraine government needs to be “democratic”.

This may infer a possible outcome – whereby Ukraine enables a form of autonomy (once held by Crimea) to some eastern regions.

Possibly to influence the positions of Presidential candidates and voters.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27314816
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May 8, 2014 8:24am
flipper

The latest Morgan poll is out. He result is very much in line with the trend shown in past
Morgan poll results. The following is the main player table for the past six Morgan polls:

Poll date National Labour Green
16 Feb 48 30 12
2 Mar 48.5 30.5 10.5
16 Mar 45.5 31.5 14
30 Mar 43 32 13
13 Aprl 48.5 28.5 11.5
4 May 42.5 31 14.5

Now, does anyone detect a pattern there ???????

And it seems that Labour is NOT making the headway with voters that it needs. Pity…Oh well, never mind.
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May 8, 2014 8:24am
tvb

The Labour vote is flatlining it is the Greens and National that bounce around a bit. Suggests 5% or so of the National vote is fairly soft. The campaign is vital. Labour at the moment is trying to develop a narrative that National is cosy with certain business men and are granting them special favours/access. This could give them some traction but their vote is stable at 30%.
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May 8, 2014 8:33am
hannity

Now, does anyone detect a pattern there ???????

Yep – National is tanking and Keys’ political future is in Winstons’ safe hands.
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May 8, 2014 8:40am
flipper

As an after thought to the 8.24 post above… the following is the average of those last six (6) polls:

National 46
Labour 30.6
Green 12.6

Says it all, does it not?
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May 8, 2014 8:41am
Cunningham

Anyone know when another poll is due?
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May 8, 2014 8:45am
itstricky

No, not really. I’ve no idea what you mean. Why didn’t you announce that as “National plummet” seeing as they’d only ever dropped 1-2% before now?
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May 8, 2014 8:45am
SPC

Jobs for Moslems, sacrificing animals for meat.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-27313185
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May 8, 2014 8:51am
Keeping Stock

In case there was any doubt that New Zealand First is anything other than Winston First, future MP’s will have to sign a contract promising to resign if they are sacked by Peters from caucus or expelled from the party. They’ll also have to pay $300,000 for breach of contract.

Peters’ megalomania knows no bounds…

http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2014/05/winston-first.html
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May 8, 2014 9:03am
Nostalgia-NZ

Morning flipper, not sure about the polls. Labour may well have bottomed out when it earlier looked like the bottom might not have been in sight. TVB above hits the nail on the head I think. Despite the claims of victory yesterday in the Parliamentary Debate from what I saw of the clips posted by KS Cunnliffe came across as more settled and I think the anonymous donors thing is probably exhausted itself to the point where it looks like the Nats are desperate to keep it alive.

With the breath of Nats looking after their rich mates in the air I don’t know that the electorate is looking for put downs but rather a measured response. When Key was speaking about the manual he looked collected and came across as reassuring – not so much with the other stuff. Additionally, he has said that the Collins issue hasn’t effected support whereas we now see it may well have. Furthermore, I see the report of Collins speaking from ‘memory’ about a meeting being put of in favour of one with Oravida. If as this point she has no definitive recollection as to her put it off then she’s still up the creek, she claims it may have been foreign affairs. So still wishy washy and on the one hand claiming that she called off a briefing because the dinner was private to now being unaware who called off the Justice meeting.
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May 8, 2014 9:05am
peterwn

Polls and all that. Yes the incidents in the last week have been rattling and upsetting. It is unfortunate that telling barefaced lies seems to paying dividends. The only feasible thing for John Key and his supporters to take stock of the immediate situation and move forward. And remember (although I do not really want to equate John Key with her) the show ain’t over until the fat lady has sung.

Labour has hopeless policies, despite MSM trying to tell us that the ‘Tool’ policy is a ‘winner’, and they cannot even guarantee that they will have the numbers to implement them – their only available tactic is to try and discredit John and co. They long since gave up trying to bully Paula Bennett, now they are targeting Judith Collins. When the campaign kicks in Labour will have to start talking policy, and MSM journos will have to start earning their pay and report and evaluate this.
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May 8, 2014 9:05am
Scott

Ahh the religion of peace strikes again –
“Islamic militants killed hundreds of people in an attack on a border town in Nigeria’s remote northeast, escalating the country’s violent insurrection in which more than 270 schoolgirls have been kidnapped.
In the attack on Gamboru Ngala the militants sprayed gunfire into the crowds of people at a busy market that was open Monday night (local time) when temperatures cool in the semi-desert region, reported ThisDay newspaper.
Nigerian federal Senator Ahmed Zannah said the attack lasted about 12 hours, according to the newspaper. The insurgents set homes on fire and gunned down residents who tried to escape from the flames, reported the paper.

Zannah blamed fighters of Nigeria’s homegrown Boko Haram terrorist network that has claimed responsibility for the kidnapping of 276 teenage girls and is threatening to sell them into slavery.

Boko Haram’s five-year-old Islamic uprising has claimed the lives of thousands of Muslims and Christians. More than 1500 people have died in their attacks so far this year. The insurgents say Western influences are corrupting and they want to impose an Islamic state in Nigeria, a country of 170 million of whom half are Christian.”
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May 8, 2014 9:11am
ShawnLH

Boko Haram Threatens To Sell 165 Kidnapped Christian Girls to Traffickers.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2014/may/boko-haram-threatens-sell-kidnapped-christian-girls-nigeria.html
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May 8, 2014 9:24am
flipper

And good morning to you Nos.

Reading the polls is like reading tea leaves, I guess. Moreover it is sometimes just as accurate.

I suspect you are right about Cunliffe and his trust account. I cannot recall for certain, but my recollection is that the pecuniary interests thing is Parliamentary self-imposed and not prescribed by Statute.
In the end, if the improving economic news continues, and the Nats produce policies as sensible as the $3000 ChCh job offer subsidy, I believe that it will be very hard for labour and its allies (or is it Axis? 🙂 ) to win on Sept. 20.

Collins, the word I have from inner circles is that she is toast and is being protracted only because of the coming GE. Her policy credibility is now (to put it kindly) low. As I mentioned a few days ago, if the HC allows Judicial review of her anti Bain/Bennie plot, that will ensure that she will struggle to make a senior cabinet position in J Key’s next Ministry.
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May 8, 2014 9:27am
wreck1080

Shouldn’t Doug Graham and his other lombard friends just take their conviction on the chin and stop complaining?

One of the reasons cited for massive executive pay checks is to compensate for the increased risk of criminal charges being laid.

I think it is a good result — i think a jail term is over the top but a conviction and fine seems more than fair. Their prospectus was not totally reflecting the business but if they did that then they’d have gone under anyway.

This is the risk they took when taking on the job and they were well compensated for that.
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May 8, 2014 9:27am
flipper

peterwn (2,958 comments) says:

May 8th, 2014 at 9:05 am
******
A very good post!
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May 8, 2014 9:40am
ShawnLH

Did Planned Parenthood help Arizona rapist go free?

“Planned Parenthood Arizona is under fire again for alleged misconduct—but this time, the charges aren’t coming from undercover pro-life activists. The Pinal County Sheriff’s Office alleges that the abortion center intentionally hid a rape involving what turned out to be a serial rapist. Abortion centers must report suspected sexual assaults, but Planned Parenthood never did, police say. According to the Phoenix CBS affiliate, the rapes occurred over a period of about three years. Some of the girls left the state in fear, while another attempted suicide.

This isn’t the first run-in with the law for Planned Parenthood or other Arizona abortionists. Pro-life activist Lila Rose and her undercover investigators from Live Action alleged in 2008 that two Arizona Planned Parenthood centers failed to report statutory rape, coaching the girls on how to get a judge to exempt them from the state’s parental consent law.

Those incidents and dozens of others nationwide are the subject of Live Action’s soon-to-be-released summary of its last six years of undercover operations and reporting. This latest revelation by Arizona police only underscores why Live Action demands in the report that law enforcement subpoena all of Planned Parenthood’s ID-redacted records for minors. Ample evidence exists of a pattern of misinformation and cover-ups at Planned Parenthood, Live Action claims.

The report details video and audio investigations of Planned Parenthood workers coaching sex traffickers of minors, lying about fetal development, facilitating sex-selective abortions of girls, and accepting donations from investigators posing as white supremacists who want to encourage African-American abortions.”

http://www.worldmag.com/2014/05/did_planned_parenthood_help_arizona_rapist_go_free
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May 8, 2014 9:41am
hj

NZ First MP Denis O’Rourke is facing a police complaint over a fake review posted on the website advertising his classic car hire business.
….
Not a big deal to do that in the big scheme of things but it shows how national is out to discredit any party which opposes migration policy (landlords, developers and etc)
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May 8, 2014 9:47am
Nostalgia-NZ

I agree flipper, measured and reassuring confidence from the Government about the economy. The controversy is best nipped in the bud as it has largely been with Williamson, Oravida keeps on benefiting a look that isn’t great. Perhaps the tactics that will be scrutinised during the JR is what has given JC a false impression of her power – the concept of ‘Mercy’ is not to be treated in a ruthless or underhand way and that Judgement, if it eventuates, will most likely sit along side K v Parker and Purkiss, Lundy and the much anticipated Pora PC Judgement as important safe guards against misuse of process.

Best Regards.
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May 8, 2014 9:50am
griffith

The pattern flippy.

The Greens have taken votes of National……

Plot the worms ……
——————————————————()()…………………………………
The banning of legalhighs will lose national some of the youth vote.

I would expect enough formerly non voting among the disaffected young to respond to social networking generated efforts to punish national for its conservative knee jerk on druuugs..

legalize pot ffs ..The research has been done…… its less harmfull than alcohol….
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May 8, 2014 9:57am
minus

NZ First radically changes its rules
New Zealand First leader Winston Peters says a new plan to fine its MPs if they leave the party but stay on in Parliament will help ensure fairness for voters.
The party is changing its constitution to stop its MPs staying on in Parliament after they have resigned or are expelled from caucus.
The new constitution states that any new member who agrees to become a New Zealand First candidate will have to sign what’s intended to be a legally enforceable contract.
That stipulates that if they resign from, or are expelled from, the New Zealand First parliamentary caucus, they must quit their seat in Parliament within three days. If that contract is broken, the new rules say the member would be liable for $300,000 in damages.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/243707/nz-first-radically-changes-its-rules

It is right that some measure should be taken so voters do not see “waka jumping” by a candidate they have put in Parliament.
But surely that should be covered by a law-change that effects all of Parliament.

How it should NOT be done is by one party placing a $300,000 bondage on the integrity of its members.

This morning Cameron Slater slates Kim Dotcom for proposing paying Internet Party candidates from the moment Kim selects them and points out this is an offence, Treating –
217.2 (b) for the purpose of procuring himself or herself to be elected]
but Winston’s proposal is may actually be the clause before that –
(a) for the purpose of corruptly influencing that person or any other person to vote or refrain from voting –
with their feet

I can understand NZ First slipping a clause into their Constitution seems a good way to go – to have Parliament consider the matter as a whole would require discussion, and that would highlight New Zealand First pre-eminence in waka jumping.
Better to use blackmail and stealth than honesty and daylight?
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May 8, 2014 10:10am
flipper

Nostalgia-NZ (4,733 comments) says:

May 8th, 2014 at 9:50 am
****

Yep, Yep and Yep.
All bests
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May 8, 2014 10:17am
Nookin

“Not a big deal to do that in the big scheme of things …”

Lying with intent to deceive and to gain financially is not a big deal? Could have fooled me.
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May 8, 2014 10:29am
Fletch

For those who don’t know, Monica Lewinsky has just written a column for Vanity Fair, after being silent for 18 years. And what happens? All the liberal women attack her (eg, a female columnist, Andrea Peyser of the New York Post saying Lewinski should “shut up and go away”). MSNBC host Joe Scarborough went apoplectic, rightly criticizing these so-called “feminists” who defend Bill Clinton (who got a free pass) and for some reason attack Lewinsky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1u_pjZ15HKw
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May 8, 2014 10:48am
Viking2

Another nail in the Nats. coffin.
allowing race based control of NZ. encouraged of course by the left.
Oh hang on they are the left.

http://www.rotoruareview.co.nz/#folio=6
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May 8, 2014 10:56am
stephieboy

Boko Haram which in the local Hausa dialect means ” Western Education is Forbidden ” will surely help keep Islam chained to the dark ages .Thus far no Nobel Prizes are forth coming from the Religion of Peace. Boko Haram like their Taliban , Al Qaeda and militant Shia partners in crime , seem determined to keep it that way.
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May 8, 2014 11:00am
kowtow

Don’t worry about the Nats losing votes of the feral dope /shit smokers.

Judging by the dregs and dross I saw interviewed on TV3 concerning the sensible banning of that rubbish ,those fuckers won’t be registered to vote, will never register to vote and actually should never be allowed to vote.
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May 8, 2014 11:07am
Kea

katie, so how do you really feel about dope smokers ? 🙂

I advise you to sit in on a Court list day. Dope smokers are only there for smoking dope. Alcohol drinkers are there because they caused harm, damage or risk. Even users of hard drugs rarely get violent, unless booze is involved.

Personally booze is my drug of choice. But I know its very dangerous.
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May 8, 2014 11:12am
Kea

no Nobel Prizes are forth coming from the Religion of Peace

stupidboy, Your violent black warmonger Obama got one. As did the communist terrorist Mandela. So why not an Al Qaeda leader ?

Seems unfair to me.
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May 8, 2014 11:16am
stephieboy

Fletch, most interesting to see Monica Lewinsky breaking her silence in Vanity Fair and Feminist and Liberals allegedly attacking her disclosure .
We also await a similar kind of disclosure by Geroge W Bush’s and his cocaine sniffing and snorting not to mention is wild boozing before seeing the light .Actions that the Conservative and right media have tried assiduously to avoid and downplay.A Vanity Affair disclosure would not go amiss with similar kinds of denunciations directed towards him by the far right , inclimfpg no doubt you.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-seery/the-bush-cocaine-chronicl_b_37786.html
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May 8, 2014 11:21am
UglyTruth

Boko Haram which in the local Hausa dialect means ” Western Education is Forbidden ” will surely help keep Islam chained to the dark ages

Islam doesn’t forbid any kind of education, in fact it encourages it.
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May 8, 2014 11:21am
Fletch

stephie, I have no idea about Bush and cocaine, though it sounds unlikely. As for alcohol abuse, he came clean about that in his book, Decision Points. He quit drinking after his 40th birthday – went cold turkey.

BTW, New Zealand doesn’t seem to have much of a problem with Nigella having used cocaine, from what i can see.

ps, substance abuse is different from a 50-something old man preying on a 22 year old girl.
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May 8, 2014 11:28am
ShawnLH

“Your violent black warmonger Obama got one.”

Not that your into hyperbole Kea. 🙂

Obama hasn’t actually started any wars.
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May 8, 2014 11:40am
ShawnLH

“.Actions that the Conservative and right media have tried assiduously to avoid and downplay.”

Stephie you know that’s not true. Bush’s fight with alcoholism and his success in that fight is public knowledge and I have seen it mentioned on conservative media more than once.

“A Vanity Affair disclosure would not go amiss with similar kinds of denunciations directed towards him by the far right , inclimfpg no doubt you.”

In general parlance “far right” means fascists and neo-Nazis. So who exactly are you referring to?
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May 8, 2014 11:44am
stephieboy

Birdbrain, sorry I was thinking of physical and biological sciences Nobel Prizes.Your Islam is totally out of the running there.
President Obama is not a war monger and e..g has nor started or invaded another Iraq and equivalents. Nor has he intentionally or willfully aided your Militant Islamic Jihaddists mates in Syria. The US e.g has refused to supply the Rebel coalition with air to surface missiles least they fall into the hands of the militant Jihaddists .Thus gives another mate of yours, Basher al Assad, an important military advantage.
Yes Mandela in his early days may of been a communist Terrorist, but proved to be very magnanimous to the whites post apartheid, chhoosing reconciliation over the real chance of a blood bath and civil war.
BTW food for thought.! Jews who represent 2% of the world’s population but have gained 22 % of the Nobel prizes where they really matter , the physical and biological sciences Your Religion of Peace has some real catching up to do.?
Yes.?
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May 8, 2014 11:46am
ShawnLH

“BTW food for thought.! Jews who represent 2% of the world’s population but have gained 22 % of the Nobel prizes where they really matter , the physical and biological sciences Your Religion of Peace has some real catching up to do.?”

Sssshhhh….

Don’t tell UglyTerroristSupporter that, he’ll claim it’s a Zionist/Satanic lie or a conspiracy to take over the world for the reptilian shape shifting lizard people. 🙂
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May 8, 2014 11:57am
mandk

@ ShawnLH (9.41)

Bravo!
Planned Parenthood is an utterly vile pro-death organisation, whose degenerate practices need to be exposed and stopped.
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May 8, 2014 11:59am
Fletch

The US e.g has refused to supply the Rebel coalition with air to surface missiles least they fall into the hands of the militant Jihaddists

Yet that is exactly what they did in Libya with $500 million of weapons, which most likely aided in the Benghazi attack. Those weapons are also likely in Syria now.

It’s treason.

The Citizens Commission on Benghazi, a self-selected group of former top military officers, CIA insiders and think-tankers, declared Tuesday in Washington that a seven-month review of the deadly 2012 terrorist attack has determined that it could have been prevented – if the U.S. hadn’t been helping to arm al-Qaeda militias throughout Libya a year earlier.

‘The United States switched sides in the war on terror with what we did in Libya, knowingly facilitating the provision of weapons to known al-Qaeda militias and figures,’ Clare Lopez, a member of the commission and a former CIA officer, told MailOnline.

She blamed the Obama administration for failing to stop half of a $1 billion United Arab Emirates arms shipment from reaching al-Qaeda-linked militants.

‘Remember, these weapons that came into Benghazi were permitted to enter by our armed forces who were blockading the approaches from air and sea,’ Lopez claimed. ‘They were permitted to come in. … [They] knew these weapons were coming in, and that was allowed..

‘The intelligence community was part of that, the Department of State was part of that, and certainly that means that the top leadership of the United States, our national security leadership, and potentially Congress – if they were briefed on this – also knew about this.’

The weapons were intended for Gaddafi but allowed by the U.S. to flow to his Islamist opposition.

‘The White House and senior Congressional members,’ the group wrote in an interim report released Tuesday, ‘deliberately and knowingly pursued a policy that provided material support to terrorist organizations in order to topple a ruler [Muammar Gaddafi] who had been working closely with the West actively to suppress al-Qaeda.’

‘Some look at it as treasonous moves,’ said Wayne Simmons, a former CIA officer who participated in the commission’s research. ‘And our men and women had to follow what many purport as, qualify as treasonous moves.’

Retired Rear Admiral Chuck Kubic, one of the commission’s sources, told reporters Tuesday that those weapons are now ‘all in Syria.’

‘Gaddafi wasn’t a good guy, but he was being marginalized,’ Kubic recalled. ‘Gaddafi actually offered to abdicate’ shortly after the beginning of a 2011 rebellion.

‘But the U.S. ignored his calls for a truce,’ the commission wrote, ultimately backing the horse that would later help kill a U.S. ambassador.

Kubic said that the effort at truce talks fell apart when the White House declined to let the Pentagon pursue it seriously.

‘We had a leader who had won the Nobel Peace Prize,’ Kubic said, ‘but who was unwilling to give peace a chance for 72 hours.’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2610598/Group-US-switched-sides-War-Terror-facilitating-500-MILLION-weapons-deliveries-Libyan-al-Qaeda-militias-leading-Benghazi-attack.html
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May 8, 2014 12:04pm
publicwatchdog

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/john-armstrong-on-politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=1502865&objectid=11251436

John Armstrong: Red hot PM hits back in withering style

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

BY TELLING ‘RED HOT’ LIES TO PARLIAMENT?
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

http://polity.co.nz/content/key-lies-parliament-proof#.U2qlNplmZ4B.twitter

Key lies to Parliament: The proof

ROB SALMOND | 8TH MAY 2014 | 0 COMMENTS

Yesterday, John Key lied to Parliament. He made a very specific claim about a set of official documents, and those same documents show clearly that the claim was false.

First, here’s Key’s statement in Parliament, in response to a question from Labour’s Grant Robertson:

The [MFAT] paperwork shows right through this that not only did the Minister have a very busy programme, which the member wants to gloss over, all on judicial and justice issues, but, secondly, all the way through it talks about a private dinner.

I added the underlining to the critical phrases, in which Key assures Parliament that there was complete consistency throughout the planning process for Collins’ visit, and that the now infamous dinner with Oravida and the mystery Chinese border official was always intended to be private.

Well, let’s go to the tape, provided by those very same documents, as I summarized yesterday:

8 October
Collins specifically requests that MFAT invite Stone Shi and Julia Xu to whatever official event [redacted] attends1.

This document shows Collins attempting to engineer an official meeting between herself, Oravida, and [redacted Chinese Border Official].

15 October
MFAT officials learn2:

It appears Stone Shi has organised directly for the Minister to meet with a [redacted] (do they mean [redacted]) on Sunday evening. She would like you [NZ Ambassador to China] and Connie to attend.

Collins’ office directly requests briefing for the dinner, and also asks for Ambassadorial attendance3.

This document shows Collins not only arranging an official dinner for herself, Oravida, and [redacted Chinese Border Official], but requesting the New Zealand Ambassador to China attend, giving it even more official clout.

16 October

Collins’ office demands MFAT explain “why the Sunday dinner with [redacted] has not been included in the visit programme.”4

This document is utterly damning. It shows Collins wanted the dinner to have official status so badly that she question’s MFAT’s decision to leave it off the official programme.

These documents clearly contradict Key’s statement to Parliament not once, not twice, but three times. He was referring specifically to these documents in his statement. He lied.

If Key is anywhere near Wellington today, he simply has to come to the House to correct his answer. Deeply embarrassing that may be, but he cannot allow such blatant untruths to stand uncorrected.

They say its never the crime that gets you, it’s the cover up. How wretched must Judith Collins feel now that she has reduced the Prime Minister to lying in Parliament on her behalf, all in order to conceal an obvious and ugly truth.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

In my considered opinion, I predict that the longer Prime Minister John Key continues to defend the indefensible Judith CORRUPT Collins, by lying about the FACTS of her now infamous ‘increasing the public profile of Oravida’ (the company owned by her CLOSE personal friend (Stone Shi) , of which another CLOSE personal friend (Julia Xu) , plus her husband David Wong Tung are Directors ) – then the more National will continue to plummet in the polls.

Then again, I guess that ex-Wall Street bankers like John Key, don’t have much idea about serving the public or the public interest, thus can’t really be expected to ‘lead from the front’ when it comes to following the ‘highest ethical standards’?

How is lying to Parliament and the public exhibiting ‘the highest ethical standards’ Prime Minister John Key?

http://cabinetmanual.cabinetoffice.govt.nz/files/manual.pdf

Conduct of Ministers

2.52 A Minister of the Crown, while holding a ministerial warrant, acts in a number of different capacities:

(a) in a ministerial capacity, making decisions, and determining and promoting policy within particular portfolios;

(b) in a political capacity as a member of Parliament, representing a constituency or particular community of interest;

(c) in a personal capacity.

2.53 In all these roles and at all times, Ministers are expected to act lawfully and to behave in a way that upholds, and is seen to uphold, the highest ethical standards. Ultimately, Ministers are accountable to the Prime Minister for their behaviour.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

What happens when it is the PRIME MINISTER who does not ‘uphold or is seen to uphold, the highest ethical standards’?

What is HE going to do about that?

Sack himself?

An unlikely turn of events.

Seems we will have to leave that to the public on 20 September 2014……

Penny Bright

‘Anti-corruption /anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’
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May 8, 2014 12:12pm
UglyTruth

Don’t tell UglyTerroristSupporter

I see you’re still the same lying hypocrite, ShawnLH, just like your cult leader Paul.
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May 8, 2014 12:13pm
Viking2

https://www.facebook.com/235623266577320/photos/a.235682906571356.1073741828.235623266577320/400509693422009/?type=1
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May 8, 2014 12:20pm
ShawnLH

Your a supporter and apologist for Islamic terrorism against Israel Ugly, that is not a lie.

And coming from someone who thinks the ‘Protocols of the Elders of Zion’ is telling the truth, hypocrisy and lies are your speciality.
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May 8, 2014 12:23pm
Kea

stupidboy, Yeah the muzzies have not covered themselves with glory recently. There was a time when they led the world in science, literature and philosophy, while your ancestors sat around the fire dressed in decaying animal skins picking lice out of their beards 😉
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May 8, 2014 12:24pm
Kea

Penny, Because Kea Cares 🙂

http://www.findsomeone.co.nz/
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May 8, 2014 12:25pm
Viking2

Adam Bennett
Adam is a political reporter for the New Zealand Herald.

Email Adam
@AdDeville

Speaker clears O’Rourke over employee allegations
Updated 11:55 AM Thursday May 8, 2014

Stephen James

Parliament’s Speaker David Carter says he has had to accept that New Zealand First MP Denis O’Rourke is not in a relationship with his taxpayer funded employee and housemate Stephen James.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11251769
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May 8, 2014 12:27pm
ShawnLH

“There was a time when they led the world in science, literature and philosophy, while your ancestors sat around the fire dressed in decaying animal skins picking lice out of their beards”

Er…not really Kea.

The so-called Islamic golden age was about the same time as the high middle ages in Europe, which could hardly be described in the way you do.
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May 8, 2014 12:32pm
Kea

Planned Parenthood is an utterly vile pro-death organisation, whose degenerate practices need to be exposed and stopped.

boydik, thinks randomly knocking out kids, your circumstances do not allow you to provide for, is life affirming. While providing and planing for your childrens future is pro-death !

A remarkable and counter intuitive position to hold. To be expected when you take directions from burning shrubbery and other halucinations. 🙂
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May 8, 2014 12:33pm
Kea

ShawnLH, Sorry mate but the Europeans were one of the last on the scene. The Arabs, Indian and Chinese were developed cultures well before the illiterate barbarians were.
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May 8, 2014 12:35pm
Judith

@ Viking2 (10,835 comments) says:
May 8th, 2014 at 12:20 pm

Happy Viking Day – may your day be full of what ever it is that makes a Viking Happy. Sorry but its been a very long time since anyone published a list of ‘things to impress a viking with’ – so I’m am not sure what to wish for you.
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May 8, 2014 12:37pm
UglyTruth

Your a supporter and apologist for Islamic terrorism against Israel Ugly, that is not a lie.

You are full of shit, ShawnLH. I do not support any form of terrorism.
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May 8, 2014 12:38pm
UglyTruth

And coming from someone who thinks the ‘Protocols of the Elders of Zion’ is telling the truth…

I don’t know if the ‘Protocols of the Elders of Zion’ is the truth about Zionists or not.
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May 8, 2014 12:44pm
Ross12

Poor old Russell , green with envy he cannot get his rich supporters to go to dinner with him. Stick with the pot-luck dinners with the party faithful Russell ( $20/head I see on your website)

https://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/23323655/key-needs-to-put-a-figure-on-cabinet-club-meetings-greens/
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May 8, 2014 12:58pm
Kea

ShawnLH, Ugly is as mad as a cut snake, but he is not an apologist for terrorists, nor is he anti Jewish. We all enjoy a good insult on KB, but you need some new material. Its funnier if it contains a bit truth btw.
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May 8, 2014 12:59pm
publicwatchdog

FYI Kiwibloggers ………….. 🙂

7 May 2014

‘Open Letter’ /OIA request to Prime Minister John Key :

“Why has New Zealand STILL not yet ratified the UN Convention Against Corruption (UNCAC)?”

Dear Prime Minister,

Please be reminded that according to the 2013 Transparency International ‘Corruption Perception Index’, New Zealand, (along with Denmark) is ‘perceived’ to be the least corrupt country in the world.

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/

However, New Zealand is still one of a handful of countries which has STILL not ratified the UN Convention Against Corruption (UNCAC).

(UN Convention Against Corruption (UNCAC)

http://www.unodc.org/documents/treaties/UNCAC/Publications/Convention/08-50026_E.pdf

(Signatories to the UN Convention Against Corruption

https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/treaties/CAC/signatories.html

__________________________________________________________________________________________

In a letter to Transparency International New Zealand (TINZ), dated 7 August 2013, your Minister of Justice Judith Collins stated:

“New Zealand ratification of the United Nations Convention Against Corruption

Thank you for your correspondence of 31 May 2013 to myself, Hon Murray McCully, and Hon Tim Groser regarding New Zealand’s ratification of the
United Nations Convention Against Corruption.

Like you, I also believe that ratifying UNCAC would be advantageous. Ratification of the Convention is important to ensure New Zealand retains its international reputation for transparency, integrity, and trustworthiness, which can have flow-on economic benefits for the country.

It is for these reasons that I have announced a package of legislative reforms that will allow New Zealand to ratify UNCAC. the reforms will be progressed as part of an Organised Crime and Anti-Corruption Bill which I intend to introduce into Parliament later in 2013.

As you may be aware, it is the policy of the New Zealand Government that binding treaty actions such as ratification is not taken until New Zealand’s domestic law is compliant with the treaty obligations. As you state in your letter, only minor amendments are necessary to bring New Zealand into compliance with the UNCAC obligations.

The Organised Crime and Anti-Corruption Bill will contain the required amendments. After the Bill is passed and the changes are enacted, officials will promptly take steps to deposit New Zealand’s instrument of ratification of UNCAC.

Yours sincerely,

Hon Judith Collins
Minister of Justice.”
____________________________________________________________________________________________

NZ Organised Crime and Anti-Corruption Legislation Bill

http://www.transparency.org.nz/docs/2013/Hon-Judith-Collins-Minister-of-Justice-Letter-to-TINZ.pdf
____________________________________________________________________________________________

Your Minister of Justice Judith Collins’ press release of 18 October 2013:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1310/S00301/bill-supports-zero-tolerance-for-organised-crime.htm

Bill supports zero-tolerance for organised crime

Friday, 18 October 2013, 10:03 am
Press Release: New Zealand Government
Hon Judith Collins

Minister of Justice

18 October 2013 Media Statement

Bill supports zero-tolerance for organised crime

Justice Minister Judith Collins says the Government’s comprehensive approach to fighting all forms of organised crime will help safeguard New Zealand’s economy, international reputation and public safety.

This month a number of international bodies are evaluating New Zealand’s compliance with international standards related to financial crimes – including the OECD, which will report on New Zealand’s compliance with an international convention to combat bribery of foreign public officials.

“I welcome the release of these reports.

This Government takes all forms of organised crime and corruption very seriously,” Ms Collins says.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

http://www.3news.co.nz/New-laws-to-fight-organised-crime/tabid/1607/articleID/317781/Default.aspx

New laws to fight organised crime
Friday 18 Oct 2013 10:33a.m.

The Government will bring in a bill before the end of the year to strengthen laws against money laundering, identity theft, human trafficking and corruption.
Justice Minister Judith Collins says she intends to have a comprehensive set of laws in place to fight all forms of organised crime.

“It’s important to consider bribery and corruption within the big picture of organised crime, which undermines public safety, national security, economic development and good governance,” she said today.

“This bill will help ensure New Zealand maintains its reputation as a responsible international citizen and that our domestic law enforcement agencies have the tolls they need to fight all forms of organised crime.”
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Unfortunately, it is now May 2014, and your Minister of Justice Judith Collins’ Organised Crime and Anti-Corruption Bill, has STILL not been presented to Parliament:

http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/legislation/bills/?Criteria.Keyword=Organised+Crime+and+Anti-Corruption+Legislation+Bill%2C&Criteria.Timeframe=&Criteria.Parliament=-1&Criteria.DocumentType=&Criteria.Status=&Search=Go

Legislation
Bills
This section lists bills before the House and its committees, and provides access to more detailed information about each one. You will also find the schedule of divided bills and progress of legislationhere. To find out more about bills before select committees, see the committee business summary.

Close Bills search
Keyword
[ ]
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No documents were found
________________________________________________________________________________________________

OFFICIAL INFORMATION ACT REQUEST:

Please provide the information which explains why Minister of Justice Judith Collins’ ‘Organised Crime and Anti-Corruption Bill’, has STILL not been presented to Parliament.

Yours sincerely,
Penny Bright
‘Anti-corruption / anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’
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May 8, 2014 1:14pm
doggone7

publicwatchdog

Mr Key is allowed to lie to Parliament – he is the Prime Minister after all. Maybe one of the serious political journos will question him about it. He would probably make himself available to Rachel Glucina. I see Judith Collins, unavailable for interview with the major public media, was happy to be interviewed by Glucina and the headline Woman’s Weeklied in another propaganda move.
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May 8, 2014 1:17pm
RRM

Penny;

You haven’t paid your rates for years and yet you had the gall to stand for election as the chief servant of the ratepayers.

Nothing you have to say about the integrity / corruption of other politicians or would-be politicians is worth shit, because your hypocrisy is absolute.
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May 8, 2014 1:18pm
UglyTruth

Mr Key is allowed to lie to Parliament

Permission to lie is irrelevant. In commerce, the truth is sovereign.

Seriously, Key should come clean and stop defending Collins.
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May 8, 2014 1:26pm
muggins

flip .old bean.
It won’t make one iota of difference if the High Court rules that those documents should be released.
Binnie’s report ain’t going to be resurrected. If Bain wishes to continue to pursue his claim for compensation he is going to have to front up again. The question is will he be willing to do that, now that the lies he told in his interview with Binnie have been exposed for all to see?
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May 8, 2014 1:33pm
Kea

Permission to lie is irrelevant. In commerce, the truth is sovereign.

WTF ???? 🙂
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May 8, 2014 1:34pm
Judith

@ doggone7

Ms Collins isn’t fooling anyone, but the already foolish.

As any 50 year old plus woman can tell you – just living at that age is a health scare in itself. Routine medical checks result in your boobs being squashed between heavy plates, and some metal object being shoved up your whatsit. Simply standing naked in front of a mirror and noting things that once pointed north, are now headed south, is enough to bring on a heart attack. Then there is the problem of the sneaky donut you have for morning tea, that once used to disappear when swallowed, but now finds its way through your body, and reappears stuck to your butt!

We vote our MP’s into parliament because we expect them to be intelligent and wary enough to know that when they are having a ‘health scare’ that they take time off from their duties and attend to it. Having a health scare does not give you licence to misled anyone – especially the house, or the public of New Zealand, and it certainly does not give you license to think and act as if you are more superior than anyone else, and therefore do not have to explain your actions to those who pay your wages (and overseas trips).

Having a health scare when you are intelligent, means you accept your health is your best asset and you withdraw yourself from harms way (and that is harm both ways – both to yourself, and others). You do not, if you are in one of the highest and most senior positions in this country, use your ‘health scare’ as licence to attack someone over a four year old incident that you conveniently banked in your memory to use at some opportune moment, when you needed to score points because you were ‘behind’ in the game.

Ms Collins can give all the interviews she likes to any number of women’s mags, but she will not fool her fellow sex, in the slightest – we know about health scares and we know all about using such things in mind games – we are experts at it by time we hit 50.

There is only one sentence this nations needs to hear from Ms Collins, and only one sentence that may save her butt and that is:
Mr Speaker, I would like to apologise to the house and the people of New Zealand for my recent misjudgment …… etc etc.
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May 8, 2014 1:39pm
UglyTruth

Maxims of commercial law:

1. A workman is worthy of his hire
2. All are equal under the Law
3. In Commerce truth is sovereign
4. Truth is expressed by means of an affidavit
5. An unrebutted affidavit stands as the truth in Commerce
6. An unrebutted affidavit becomes the judgment in Commerce
7. A matter must be expressed to be resolved
8. He who leaves the field of battle first loses by default
9. Sacrifice is the measure of credibility
10. A lien or claim can be satisfied only through rebuttal by Counter-affidavit point-for-point, resolution by jury, or payment
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May 8, 2014 1:41pm
Kea

“Maxims of commercial law:”

In which ~~country~~ Planet ?

It is certainly not planet Earth, unless you delve into the alternate reality of the “freemen” freak show.
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May 8, 2014 1:45pm
UglyTruth

You haven’t paid your rates for years and yet you had the gall to stand for election as the chief servant of the ratepayers.

The mayor is not the servant of the ratepayers. A servant has to do what he or she is told, ratepayers can not do this.
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May 8, 2014 1:47pm
ShawnLH

Kea,

“ShawnLH, Ugly is as mad as a cut snake,”

Undoubtedly.

“but he is not an apologist for terrorists,”

Yes, he is. He promotes on the internet vile, filthy anti-Jewish and anti-Israeli lies which are identical to those promoted by Islamic terrorists. He thus gives aid to them, and thus to the enemies of the West.

“nor is he anti Jewish.”

Yes, he really is. He tries pathetically to get around this by defining Jews in a way that excludes the vast majority of Jewish people from being Jews at all, but that in itslef is profoundly anti-Jewish

Ugly is no different and no better than the Nazi SS, and he is cut from the same cloth.
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May 8, 2014 1:51pm
cha

Vladimir’s showing his totalitarian slip.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/07/world/europe/russia-quietly-tightens-reins-on-web-with-bloggers-law.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/06/world/europe/russia-swearing-law/index.html?sr=sharebar_twitter
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May 8, 2014 1:52pm
UglyTruth

It is certainly not planet Earth, unless you delve into the alternate reality of the “freemen” freak show.

Ask any lawyer, they’ll tell you that I’m right.

http://hebrewuniversity.tribesofaboriginalnations.com/mod/page/view.php?id=169
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May 8, 2014 1:55pm
Kea

Ugly is no different and no better than the Nazi SS, and he is cut from the same cloth.

No ShawnLH Ugly is not at all like that, but you are:

1. You do not regard Jews in the same way as other people.

2. You persecute and villainize people who are not part of your favoured group.

3. You support extreme violence and death against a particular religious group.

4. You support a religious group being separated from the rest of society and their movements restricted.

5. You believe that your favoured group is superior to all others.

It is little wonder Jews often regard Christians with utter contempt. They totally reject your religion and do not trust you. And for very very good reason. Your hate is fickle and you can not be trusted. Jews learnt that the hard way.
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May 8, 2014 1:59pm
Kea

File photo of ShawnLH, (or at least a similar good Catholic boy)

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtBNdfC7UmrF8sko_7mZK5Oo7_g0U3JSWizMdgty5fhC8_IFco
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May 8, 2014 2:02pm
griffith

kea he is a angle can

idiot.
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May 8, 2014 2:03pm
mandk

Kea: “boydik”

Penis envy?
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May 8, 2014 2:07pm
Kea

ShawnLH,

do you agree with the Toledot Yeshu that Mary was raped and produced the bastard Jesus, who was a little scum bag ? Or do you think the Jews lied ?

Do you agree with the Toledot Yeshu that Jesus was anally raped by Judis, or do you think the Jews lied ?

Why do YOU think Jews spit on you people and welcome the Islamification of Europe ?
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May 8, 2014 2:08pm
Kea

“Kea: “boydik”

Sad.”

Don’t worry little fella it will grow. Just keep pulling on it 🙂
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May 8, 2014 2:09pm
lilman

Ugly,you rational thinker you.

2 plu 2 = 27 by your rational.
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May 8, 2014 2:11pm
Kea

Ask any lawyer, they’ll tell you that I’m right.

Errrrrrrrrr LOL 🙂

How come I only find those Maxims on freeman conspiracy sites Ugly ?
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May 8, 2014 2:22pm
cha

boydik

Wrong boi.
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May 8, 2014 2:23pm
UglyTruth

“but he is not an apologist for terrorists,”

Yes, he is. He promotes on the internet vile, filthy anti-Jewish and anti-Israeli lies which are identical to those promoted by Islamic terrorists. He thus gives aid to them, and thus to the enemies of the West.

You are a lying sack of shit, Shawn Lee Herles. You can’t quote anything that I’ve posted which supports your allegation.

What I’ve posted are facts about the Zionists, for example:

The Lavon Affair (Operation Susannah).
The Attack on the USS Liberty.
The Sabra and Shatilla massacres.

“nor is he anti Jewish.”

Yes, he really is. He tries pathetically to get around this by defining Jews in a way that excludes the vast majority of Jewish people from being Jews at all, but that in itslef is profoundly anti-Jewish

Your own Bible speaks of false jews, you stupid fuck.
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May 8, 2014 2:26pm
UglyTruth

How come I only find those Maxims on freeman conspiracy sites Ugly ?

Because universities like you to pay for their courses?
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May 8, 2014 2:27pm
Kea

Forgive him Ugly. Surveys have proven conclusively that atheists and Jews have the greatest bible knowledge… in that order. Mainstream Christians had the worst bible knowledge, by far. 🙂

Debating religion with ShawnLH is like debating law with you buddy 😉
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May 8, 2014 2:35pm
stephieboy

Fletch (5,778 comments) says:
May 8th, 2014 at 12:04 pm,

behind the allegations of $500 million worth of missiles there is a litany of misinformation about the Libyan War peddled and pushed by both the far left and the same nefarious elements of the US Right with their Benghazi Conspiracy myth.
Of course various attempts have been made to pin all blame on Qaddafii’s over throw on Obama and subsequent events.
This ignores some salient facts such as The UN Resolution 1973 that sanctioned the actions against the Colonel and his regime . The resolution was unanimous with interestingly China and Russia abstaining but not vetoing as might of t expected them to. Why was that.?
The Resolution furthermore was unanimously supported by the Arab League and also NATO..The resolution in effect asked that Libyan Citizens be protected frothier murderous government.When the protests began in wake of those in Tunisia Qaddafi was outraged calling them “cockroaches” with a total blanket unwillingness to negotiate. He was not a man of compromise. Dictators usually are not.

10 Top myths about the Libya War,

http://www.juancole.com/2011/08/top-ten-myths-about-the-libya-war.html

and UN Resolution 1973 background,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Re
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May 8, 2014 2:38pm
Kea

stupidboy, so you are ok with radical Jihadists being promoted and sponsored by Obama ? This is not about freedom of the people. It is about weakening and destabilising Israels neighbours.

I really do wish you would do a little bit of reading before you start typing. It would save you this daily embarassment.
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May 8, 2014 2:42pm
UglyTruth

Forgive him Ugly.

Forgiveness is for those who abandon evil.

ShawnLH is a liar like Paul:

For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Romans 3:7

ShawnLH is also a hypocrite like Paul:

But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men [and] brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
Acts 23:6

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.
Luke 11:44
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May 8, 2014 2:44pm
Viking2

Waikato Times

Men who are reluctant to don togs in the company of women could be catered for with male-only swim sessions – if demand exists. The suggestion follows the news that Hamilton City Council was working on a proposal to introduce twice-weekly women-only swimming sessions at the Gallagher Aquatic Centre:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/10018867/Male-only-pool-sessions-on-the-cards
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May 8, 2014 2:50pm
UglyTruth

Debating religion with ShawnLH is like debating law with you buddy

Both subjects usually involve faith, either faith in some religious doctrine, or faith in the supremacy of man.

For example according to the NZ state, the parliament is sovereign because it is accountable to the people, and yet the legal meaning of sovereignty is that there is no accountability (amongst other things). So in reality there is no rational basis for the claim that the NZ parliament is sovereign, it’s just a fiction used to hide the constitutional mess that you get when you try to run a common law country with a civil government.
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May 8, 2014 3:04pm
SPC

Ugly Truth, the entire bible is posed as the word of God, including Paul’s writings. All a lie, or none of it is a lie.

Who lied more than the writer of the Torah? The entire law code was invented by men, it did not come from God. Posing it as the work of Moses just gave the world someone to blame, when we found out it was all myth.

There was no flood as an act of God, no destruction of cities as an act of God, and the laws men cited when killing other men did not come from God – nor the sanction to kill. Also no evidence of a conquest of Canaan either.

It was all untrue. A creation myth of, by and for, the covenant nation.

Thus it is fitting that it concludes with Revelation – a bit replay of the flood, a bit plagues falling on Egypt, a bit conquest of the world as per Canaan (the bowls of judgement), a prophecy of future events bringing in a Christian throne ruled world based on the creation myth lies of the Torah.
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May 8, 2014 3:08pm
stephieboy

Its important to get some background on who is this “Citizen’s Committee” that claimed the US allowed $500 million dollars worth of weaponry to flow to Al Qaeda who opposed the Libyan Dictator, punished in the Daily Mail and elsewhere .

The panelists consist of a group of individuals well known for their Birther, General Conspiracy and Benghazi theorists as well as virulently anti i Islamic views .

“The Citizens’ Committee on Benghazi is organized and supported by Roger Aronoff’s fringe conservative group Accuracy in Media (AIM). AIM is responsible for promoting many conspiracy theories over the years, and is also well-known for extreme anti-gay views and hate speech.”,

http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/04/23/meet-the-conspiracy-theorists-behind-the-new-be/198991

and Accuracy In Media,

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Accuracy_in_Media
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May 8, 2014 3:11pm
SPC

Ugly Truth, sovereignty was once associated with lack of accountability, because rule was top down and all were accountable to the unaccountable Crown.

However the Crown was made accountable by successful rebellion. And once the principle of accountability (Magna Carta) was established – the principle was developed further – see Declaration of Arbroath.

Now the people are sovereign, and the Crown is now a tool of their parliament and thus accountable to them each election.
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May 8, 2014 3:17pm
Kea

stuuuuupidboy, you really are intellectually feeble. Attacking the source is not a valid argument. What on earth have their views on gays and jews got to do with the matter at hand ?

If you had anything of substance to counter the claims you would have gleefully presented it to us. You have nothing coming even close to a rational and valid argument.

Do you think telling fibs, character smears and making stuff up will secure you a place in heaven with “God Chosen” ? The fact you consider it might is very revealing of your biblical knowledge.
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May 8, 2014 3:19pm
stephieboy

But birdbrain the so called Citizen’s committee have made allegations of $500. million dollars of weapons falling into the hands of Al Qaeda. There allegations just like your’s ,suggesting the Obama is administration is deliberately targeting military aid to militant . Jihadist Al Qaeda Sunni rebels in Syria.
Poppycock ! and as explained earlier in the day !
The political biases and affiliations of the “Citizen’s committee “is fundamentally important .its to do with credibility,but of course ,non partisanship and impartiality are unimportant to you and biases and prejudices are everything.
Again you would be interested to learn the same Syria Al Qeada rebel faction receive the support of Hamas in Gaza and the Obama administration using Drone attacks agains them in the Yemen.
Hmmm….!
Welcome to Birdbrains’ world of newspeak and double think.!
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May 8, 2014 3:39pm
UglyTruth

Ugly Truth, the entire bible is posed as the word of God, including Paul’s writings. All a lie, or none of it is a lie.

In the original text the phrase “word of God” referred to prophetic insight. Only a small part of the Bible is about such insight.

Who lied more than the writer of the Torah? The entire law code was invented by men, it did not come from God.

Ivan Panin’s mathematical patterns suggests otherwise.

There was no flood as an act of God, no destruction of cities as an act of God

Ron Wyatt’s sulphur balls suggest otherwise (brimstone = sulphur).
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May 8, 2014 3:40pm
SPC

Ugly Truth, even you can only find a suggestion of credibility to their offerings, which is to have their contributions damned with faint praise indeed.

That those of religious faith want to believe that God has acted and will act to kill humans is the saddest part.
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May 8, 2014 3:49pm
Kea

stupidboy, Obama himself claims he is funding those groups. It is widely reported in media. Personally I just wish you people would stop the killing and destruction. SPC’s last line goes for me too. I do not care if you believe in god. I disagree, but that is not a problem for me. All I want you to do is stop letting your faith distort your mind and lead to bloodshed and suffering. Of course you twist this to mean I am pro-Muslim extremists and hate Jews !
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May 8, 2014 3:59pm

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