General Debate 5 May 2014

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hj

After 20 years of high immigration (by OECD standards) and it having done us no good:

At that time, it was considered that skills-focused inward migration could: improve growth
by bringing in better quality human capital and addressing skills shortages; improve
international connections and boost trade; help mitigate the effects of population ageing;
and have beneficial effects on fiscal balance. As well as “replacing” departing
New Zealanders and providing particular help with staffing public services (for example,
medical professionals), it was believed that migration flows could be managed so as to
avoid possible detrimental effects (such as congestion or poorer economic prospects) for
existing New Zealanders.

Since then, New Zealand has had substantial gross and net immigration, which has been
relatively skill-focused by international standards. However, New Zealand’s economic
performance has not been transformed. Growth in GDP per capita has been relatively
lacklustre, with no progress in closing income gaps with the rest of the advanced world,
and productivity performance has been poor. It may be that initial expectations about the
potential positive net benefits of immigration were too high.

Based on a large body of new research evidence and practical experience, the consensus
among policymakers now is that other factors are more important for per capita growth
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and productivity than migration and population growth. CGE modelling exercises for
Australia and New Zealand have been influential in reshaping expectations.

http://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/research-policy/wp/2014/14-10

people from grossly over populated places call us racist when we talk of limiting immigration.
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May 5, 2014 8:02am
tvb

Immigration by its very nature is racist otherwise you have no policy and just left everyone in.
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May 5, 2014 8:05am
hj

Labour economic policy tapping into ‘political hotpoint’ of immigration
http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/key-dismisses-labour-idea-cutting-migrants-curb-inflation-5944704
Labour’s rates plan to limit immigration
http://www.3news.co.nz/Labours-rates-plan-to-limit-immigration/tabid/1607/articleID/342193/Default.aspx

The High Priests of Journalism at Radio NZ are silent (“this isn’t a story we would want people to be interested in”).
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May 5, 2014 8:07am
minus

Cunliffe’s secret trust

Rather than face the embarrassment of New Zealanders knowing who his donors are, [Cunliffe] refunded the money.
http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/cunliffe-tries-deflect-criticism-over-his-secret-trust-dc-154060

The New Zealand Labour Party leadership election was held on 15 September 2013
Cunliffe’s secret trust fund was made public around April1, 2014

So Cunliffe accepted the funding donated and held it for at least 6 months before giving some back to undeclared persons who had wished to secretly but successfully influence his position in Parliament.

Is six months use of outside secret funding acceptable under Standing Orders?
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May 5, 2014 8:08am
Pete George

Judith Collins made a bad mistake yesterday.

But – is it the culmination of a predicament of her own making? Or has relentless ongoing media pressure been over the top?

A comment on Firstline this morning was that Collins may be unravelling. Who keeps pulling on the threads?
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May 5, 2014 8:11am
Nostalgia-NZ

How’s that deflection thing going minus? It seems the faster you bale the deeper Judith sinks, is that the plan?
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May 5, 2014 8:12am
dog_eat_dog

Immigration is only OK when people have the same skin colour as me and I don’t hear anecdotes about their different appearance at home auctions GUYS AM I DOING THIS RIGHT
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May 5, 2014 8:13am
OneTrack

Minus – its ok when the left does it. Nothing to see here., move along.
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May 5, 2014 8:15am
hj

International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination

The International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD) commits its members to the elimination of racial discrimination and the promotion of understanding among all races. The Convention also requires its parties to outlaw hate speech and criminalize membership in racist organizations.

The ICERD was adopted and opened for signature and ratification by General Assembly resolution 2106 (XX) of 21 December 1965 and entered into force 4 January 1969. New Zealand ratified the CERD on 22 November 1972.

http://www.hrc.co.nz/international-human-rights-new/new-zealands-international-obligations/international-covenant-on-the-elimination-of-all-forms-of-racial-discrimination/

Because it is “illegal” to discriminate on where people come from, anyone opposing mass migration into countries from crowded basket cases will be called racist.
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May 5, 2014 8:15am
tom hunter

Since I don’t pay much attention to the MSM I don’t know how much of a story the Sterling episode in the US has been here in NZ

Sterling is the billionaire owner of the LA Clippers basketball team who was recently outed making racist comments in recorded conversations with his mistress/handler. The guy has now been banned from attending NBA games and will likely be pressured to sell the Clippers, which all sounds over the top – until you read this article by sports columnist Bill Simmons:

You always heard stories and whispers about how heinous he was. The one that shocked me most: one Clippers player (still on the team) telling a friend of mine that Sterling routinely brought people into their locker room after games, then could be plainly overheard ogling their “beautiful bodies.” Like he was admiring race horses or something. This was a man who heckled his own players during games. This was a man who coldly ended Elgin Baylor’s 50-year association with the NBA, sending him packing with a terse PR statement and nothing else. This was a man who fired Mike Dunleavy, then refused to pay the rest of Dunleavy’s guaranteed contract; Dunleavy actually had to sue Sterling for the rest of his money

Yuk! It’s incredible that someone like this could have survived this long in the NBA, but that’s ownership for you, and the writer does not hesitate in pointing out that everyone – including himself – allowed themselves to be bought by this guy:

Everyone who played for Sterling, worked for Sterling or bought Clippers tickets knew he was slime. We rationalized it in our own ways. Chris Paul pushed his way to the Clippers because he wanted a big market. Blake Griffin passed up free agency because the Clippers offered him an extraordinary amount of money. Doc Rivers abandoned a terrific Celtics organization, and a city that unequivocally loved him, for a chance to turn the Clippers into champions. I bought Clippers season tickets in 2004 because I love going to NBA games. We all knew about Sterling. As Ted DiBiase said, everybody’s got a price.

Read the whole thing.
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May 5, 2014 8:17am
Scott Chris

After 20 years of high immigration (by OECD standards) and it having done us no good:

The study doesn’t say that hj. You’ve completely misrepresented its general thrust.

From the first paragraph of the study’s absract:

New Zealand immigration policy settings are based on the assumption that the macroeconomic impacts of immigration may be significantly positive, with at worst small negative effects. However, both large positive and large negative effects are possible. Reviewing the literature, the balance of evidence suggests that while past immigration has, at times, had significant net benefits, over the past couple of decades the positive effects of immigration on per capita growth, productivity, fiscal balance and mitigating population ageing are likely to have been modest.

Also note the author’s disclaimer:

The views, opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations expressed in this Working Paper are strictly those of the author(s). They do not necessarily reflect the views of the New Zealand Treasury or the New Zealand Government. The New Zealand Treasury and the New Zealand Government take no responsibility for any errors or omissions in, or for the correctness of, the information contained in these working papers. The paper is presented not as policy, but with a view to inform and stimulate wider debate.
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May 5, 2014 8:21am
hj

People are by nature racist having evolved in small groups where everyone looks like them. The rule applies to all ethnicities allthough sociologists (Professor Paul Spoonley) believes there has to be power involved.

Oxytocin
Results show that oxytocin creates intergroup bias because oxytocin motivates in-group favoritism and, to a lesser extent, out-group derogation. These findings call into question the view of oxytocin as an indiscriminate “love drug” or “cuddle chemical” and suggest that oxytocin has a role in the emergence of intergroup conflict and violence.
To survive and prosper, individuals need groups whose members contribute information and resources. Because contributing resources and information makes oneself vulnerable to exploitation by others, group members need to know who to trust or to distrust, who can be expected to also contribute to the group and to reciprocate cooperation, and who may abuse in-group generosity and free-ride on others (1). A key mechanism facilitating such in-group cooperation is ethnocentrism, the tendency to view one’s own group as centrally important and as superior to other groups. Ethnocentrism manifests itself in positive valuation of (members of) one’s in-group. Such in-group favoritism signals loyalty and positive commitment to the group, thus rendering the ethnocentric individual a reliable and trustworthy partner. Ethnocentrism may also show up in negative valuation of (members of) out-groups. Such out-group derogation signals to in-group members who should be excluded from in-group resources and exchanges, and reduces the probability that in-group resources are inadvertently extended to out-groups (1–6).

If in-group favoritism and out-group derogation have adaptive value and sustain in-group functioning, coordination, and cooperation, it follows that (i) throughout evolution those individuals who displayed in-group favoritism and out-group derogation and who detected such tendencies in others were more likely to spread than individuals lacking these capacities (5–8) and (ii) the human brain may have evolved to sustain ethnocentrism through yet-unknown neurobiological systems

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3029708/

In Victorian England, too, the elite viewed the working class and the rural poor as the racial Other. A vignette of working class life in the Saturday Review, a well-read liberal magazine of the era, is typical of English middle class attitudes:

http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2012/06/04/what-is-wrong-with-multiculturalism-part-1/
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May 5, 2014 8:25am
Ross12

PG @ 8.11

The best thing Judith Collins could do now is not say anything to the media about the issue. Just refuse to answer any questions from them or Robertson & co.
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May 5, 2014 8:26am
igm

The fat fairy from Wellington best concentrate on his own problems before they become public . . . he is a sitting duck, so to speak!
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May 5, 2014 8:28am
Komata

d-e-d

Although you may have written your comment with a somewhat satirical intent, you are to a degree correct. This is because, aside from the matter of ethnicity, there have always been those immigrants who have brought money with them (by various means), and have been able to make large purchases over and above the ‘locals’. There is nothing new in this. Where the problem now seems to be occurring is the situation by which various ‘immigrants’ refuse to integrate / assimilate into our society, and actively resist anyone who believes that they should do so, despite the fact that 99.9000% of the ‘newbies’ have no problem in doing so…

I believe this ‘lack of integration’ is called ‘multiculturalism, with results that are very evident in certain parts of Western Europe.

BTW: It can never be proven, but based on casual observation, I would suspect that many of the so-called ‘poor’ refugees that come into NZ are actually not so, and that various (non-banking) methods can be used to ‘ensure’ funds are available. Squirrels have nothing on such people.

Just a thought….
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May 5, 2014 8:29am
Scott Chris

There’s not a lot of substance to the media persecution of Collins but on the other hand National’s damage control could use some work.

Boils down to this: Collins needs to pull her head in and stfu.
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May 5, 2014 8:30am
Judith

@ Pete George (21,893 comments) says:
May 5th, 2014 at 8:11 am

Yes, Judith Collins is under extreme pressure, and has been targeted.

Should that happen?

In an ideal world, no. An election year should be about the things that matter to make this country reach its full potential, however, part of reaching that target, is having leaders that can guide us through the process in a safe and competent manner. A true leader (including all MP’s) should be strong, able and possess integrity.

Collins is being targeted, perhaps unfairly, but then much of her stress is coming from her own arrogance, and failure to accept that she is answerable to us. They all are. Her arrogance has allowed her to drip feed the truth, something that hasn’t gone down well, and gives the illusion (or not) that she is hiding something.

This behaviour has put her under stress, and now she is making silly and stupid mistakes.

I think she needs a break, a bit of time in the back benches may give her space to relax and rethink her position. She has a tremendous amount of responsibility in her portfolios – probably more than most – and frankly she’s not stood up to it well. Her career aspirations have probably disappeared this year, and so she is going to have to reevaluate where she is going (I think the chances of her ever being PM are gone).

Her arrogance makes her a target – being a target brings more arrogance, and mistakes – something she needs to handle, or pass in the jandal.
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May 5, 2014 8:31am
Keeping Stock

When helen Clark was the leader of the Labour Party, she was proud that immigrants found their home with the Labour Party.

A lot has changed in the last six years. David Cunliffe doesn’t seem to realise that there’s only room for one redneck party of the political landscape, and Winston Peters already has that market sewn up. His attempts to cuddle up close to Peters and blame all New Zealand’s ills on “foreigners” when he really means Chinese migrants are desperate and pathetic.

http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2014/05/compare-and-contrast.html

And full marks to Graeme Edgeler, who put Nanaia Mahuta and David Cunliffe straight yesterday…
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May 5, 2014 8:35am
Judith

@ Ross12 (945 comments) says:
May 5th, 2014 at 8:26 am

I think you are wrong there. Silence will infer more arrogance. Her arrogance is not appealing. I think the best thing Collins could do is play the female! Apologise – confess the pressure has got to her, and promise it will never happen again. Kiwis love the underdog as much as they love to hate the ‘top dog’.

A display of humanity would not go astray in this instance – but Key is also under pressure – he needs to be seen to be a fair, but competent leader who is able to tame the ‘naughtiest school girl’.

Tricky for all – Collins needs to front up in a soft manner and scrap the arrogance, or she will be gone.
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May 5, 2014 8:37am
hj

Scott Chris (5,712 comments) says:
May 5th, 2014 at 8:21 am

The study doesn’t say that hj. You’ve completely misrepresented its general thrust.
….
One of us has read it and it isn’t you.

Conclusion
The macroeconomic effects of immigration in New Zealand are uncertain. There are
plausible arguments but as yet no evidence for large positive or negative impacts of
immigration. Some economists and geographers argue in favour of high rates of
immigration on the grounds that migrants can boost productivity through scale,
agglomeration and innovation. In contrast, some macroeconomists argue that in a low
savings economy, the resource pressures associated with high migration put persistent
upward pressure on real interest and exchange rates, leading to a re-allocation of
resources from more productive tradable sectors to less productive infrastructure, and
reducing productivity growth.

The lack of evidence is not symmetric. New Zealand has had high levels of inward
migration for 20 years now. Arguments for large positive effects invoke the possibility that
there are long lags, or that more positive effects will occur once some higher population
threshold is reached. In this case there is presently no evidence, but a possibility that
positive effects will eventually be reaped. In contrast, stylised facts such as real interest
rates that are high by international standards and a real exchange rate which has not
adjusted to the sustained deterioration in New Zealand’s relative productivity performance
are real and demonstrable, but cannot be definitively linked to migration policy.

The complexity of causality means it may not be possible to settle these arguments
empirically in New Zealand. The most robust available evidence points to migration having
small effects, some of which are positive (such as improving fiscal balance) and some
negative (such as labour market competition for the higher skilled). The large productivity
benefits hoped for when the scale and skills focus of migration were increased in the early
1990s have not been realised. Why not?

etc
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May 5, 2014 8:40am
iMP

Note fromthe Labour party War Room to TVNZ Labour Rainbow Branch and Gallery Unit…

“Judith Collins sneezed today. Some of the flem landed on a rich Asian businessman who once brushed past a senior National politician who had read the same book. The two men have the same numeral in their respective phone numbers. GO FOR IT TEAM!!
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May 5, 2014 8:41am
hj

Keeping Stock (9,812 comments) says:
May 5th, 2014 at 8:35 am

When helen Clark was the leader of the Labour Party, she was proud that immigrants found their home with the Labour Party.

A lot has changed in the last six years. David Cunliffe doesn’t seem to realise that there’s only room for one redneck party of the political landscape,
…….

While immigration played a key role in house inflation in the three years after 2001 (Reserve
Bank 2007), it is unknown to what extent on-going immigration continued to drive price rises.
The housing boom has meant good profits for many New Zealand companies supplying
materials and building services, but it implies investors would rather invest in their country’s
homes rather than its businesses (Bollard 2005). The high returns for property has attracted
finance and reduced the capital available for productive investment (Moody, 2006). The
consequence is investment is going in to industries with limited capacity to increase per capita
incomes. For example, real estate and building are domestically bound and do not have the
market potential of export industries. They also have less opportunity to increase productivity
through new processes and products. The irony is, as these sectors grow, they have incurred
skills shortages which in turn has increased demand for skilled immigrants. The Department
of Statistics ‘Long Term Skill Shortage List’ of 28/3/2006 includes carpenter/joiner, plumber,
electricians, fitter and turners, fitter welders; all indicative of a nation building its
construction/property sector.
There is a danger that a sector of the economy is being augmented that is totally reliant on a
small domestic economy. Not only do these industries have limited potential for per-capita
growth but ‘deriving growth via factor inputs such as labour places pressure on infrastructure
such as transport and land supply, and ultimately have a further negative impact on growth
(ARC 2005). Finally, as the sector gets larger, it gains in lobbying/political strength and can
lobby for immigration regardless if it is the best interests of the economy as a whole. *This
could be seen in Canada where the development industry has lobbied hard for high sustained
immigration levels (Ley and Tutchener 2001). </blockquote
Dr Greg Clydesdale
Growing Pains

*Shaaaaame National (Self Interested Weasels)
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May 5, 2014 8:44am
Dave Mann

OK… so a male ‘NZ leader’ has a son who has been caught by the police for committing robery. Why is his name being kept a secret? Do we not live in a free society anymore where people are openly held to account for their actions? This name suppression bullshit HAS to STOP.
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May 5, 2014 8:47am
Keeping Stock

@ hj – as I said, your man Winston has the redneck market cornered. There’s no room for “Winston” Cunliffe’s xenophobia as well.
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May 5, 2014 8:52am
Ross12

Judith @ 8.37

You maybe right, but people like Robertson will then just say she is being a wimp or something similar.

The only plus from this issue is that it just show Labour is out of ideas ( except for their macro economic policy the other day). The more they go on about it the more they will alienate voters –perhaps ,especially women.
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May 5, 2014 8:53am
kowtow

Sterling may be a “heinous” person”.So what? How many people pass the nice person test? And by whose standards. He may have attitudes/or opinions of other people that don’t match our own.How unusual is that?

Fact is he had a private conversation with a second party,that was released into the public domain.How nice is it to secretly record conversations and release them to the media? Where’s the international vilification for that? Where’s the media analysis of the morality of that behaviour?

He owns a business and now there are calls to force him to sell his private property interest because of a privately held and expressed opinion.

We live in very totalitarian times.

The over reaction to this is simply ridiculous.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/wp/2014/05/03/john-mccain-would-probably-change-redskins-name/

Talking of over reacting ,both TV 1 and 3 sports and news commentaries did weigh in with their views condemning Sterling.

We should now follow suit.

Crusaders is offensive to Muslims.
Highlanders is offensive to Scots who support the English monarchy.
Chiefs is offensive to descendants of Maori slaves.
Blues is offensive to people who like Red.
Sharks to victims of fish.
Hurricanes to people who have lost their homes
Rebels to constitutionalists

etc

Fascinating (not)
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May 5, 2014 8:53am
mandk

@ David Mann

The father doesn’t want name suppression. It’s the son’s lawyer who wants it.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/10008001/Leaders-son-off-the-rails

Good on the dad.
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May 5, 2014 8:54am
Scott Chris

Silence will infer more arrogance. Her arrogance is not appealing.

That’s a reasonable point, but it’s the best way forward for her. I’d be inclined to coach her on how to employ a more conciliatory and appeasing vocal inflection.

Perhaps Key should propose a formal independent enquiry into the Oravida affair and stand Collins down in the meantime to take the heat off her.
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May 5, 2014 8:55am
twofish

… good luck to Labour explaining to South Auckland voters that their new “big tool” policy is going to be used to rape their already thin wallets even further.

But then you could get extended maternity leave or $60 a week for a new baby … but not both at the same time.
However that applies only to babies born after April 1, 2016 … yes, two thousand and fucking sixteen.

Maybe don’t vote with the “big tool”. Labour’s slogan I’M IN may not be such a good idea 🙂
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May 5, 2014 8:59am
Nostalgia-NZ

‘A comment on Firstline this morning was that Collins may be unravelling. Who keeps pulling on the threads?’

Herself. She’s making wild accusations as she tries to deflect pressure from herself when her only course is to front up with the truth. A classic is her attacks on Katy Bradford and Robertson both of which are now shown to have no substance, it looks like there is another concerning a NZ First politician that is also unravelling. She has justified this as a response to the criticism of Williamson, well hello – Williamson resigned because he accepted he had crossed the boundaries. Someone above says that JC should simply shut up, good advice in the normal routine of things – but this is a Minister of high office who seems intent on ‘holding on’ what ever the cost might be to the election campaign. She is effectively taking the importance of an improving economy off the front page without sufficient cognizance to appreciate what her own crap is doing to National and undermining the record of Key’s leadership. In some respects this is a revelation of how somebody like JK without a political background can play with a straight bat while life long political veterans lack practical common sense and revert too easily to cronyism.
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May 5, 2014 8:59am
Ross12

WhaleOil has a good piece on the Collins issue with Bradford comparing it to Williamson’s problem. I think Cam makes some very valid points.

http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/05/bradford-didnt-want-favours-ask/#more-135081
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May 5, 2014 9:01am
wreck1080

John Key wants to open the immigration floodgates.

Methinks it is a mistake having seen what happened in the UK.
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May 5, 2014 9:03am
radvad

Collins has lost the plot. National has a fantastic story to tell but sideshows like her and Williamson are preventing it fron being told. Time for her to step down and take a break and ZIP IT.
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May 5, 2014 9:04am
dime

Dime has been a busy boy and is out of the loop.

Ive managed to piece together this.

Worst hair & accent in NZ history since her mother, bradford, married a loser. the guy couldnt get into the police force (guess hes a mall cop now). so comrade bradford threw her morals out the window and went to collins for help. collins said no.

now collins is the bad guy for mentioning it?
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May 5, 2014 9:07am
Ryan Sproull

Submitted without comment.

Satanists’ statue design for Oklahoma Capitol: ‘Sit on the lap of Satan’.
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May 5, 2014 9:09am
Dave Mann

@mandk: Yes, I agree… good on the father, but the scrote wants the name suppression and he shouldn’t be granted it, in my opinion. There are far too many instances of criminals having their names suppressed and its about time we put a stop to it.
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May 5, 2014 9:10am
Judith

@ Ross12 (947 comments) says:
May 5th, 2014 at 9:01 am

I don’t think it is a good piece at all. Whale makes lots of assumptions and over looks the fact that women tend to speak to other women about such things, even if they are only acquaintances. Sure a man might not reveal such a problem to another man, but women regularly seek the opinions of others, especially if one is deemed to be able to offer advice.

Collins has since made it clear there was no asking for any favours by Bradford. To keep implying their was, despite Collins saying no, appears to imply that the Whale does not believe Collins – does the whale think Ms Collins is a liar now?

He’d be better to not try and mud rake this one – it was a conversation between two females, the kind of conversation that goes on in many venues everyday between women – as 50% of the electorate, he is better off letting people think that is the case – Collins, under stress used that conversation as an example, and shouldn’t have – end of story.

However, I would think no one would want Whale to be right, because then it implies that should any member of the electorate seek advice from an MP, they risk having the details of that advice made very public on national Television. Something I am sure would send shivers down many peoples spines – “we cannot trust our MP’s to keep confidences”.
Nah, that is a look that needs to be carefully managed to ensure the electorate do NOT think that is the case!
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May 5, 2014 9:11am
Judith

@ dime (8,845 comments) says:
May 5th, 2014 at 9:07 am

So you also think Collins is a liar when she said that no favours were asked for? Wow! Dime is changing teams? 😉
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May 5, 2014 9:14am
peterwn

Dom-Post billboard – ‘Pressure mounts on Collins’ – from whom? Journalists as far as I can see. They are supposed to be reporting news, not making it. Is it any wonder that the spotlight is being turned on mainstream journalists and they hate it.

While the hard left would love to see Judith go, her departure would be extremely unsettling to other prospective electors.
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May 5, 2014 9:16am
dime

@judith –

“Dime has been a busy boy and is out of the loop.

Ive managed to piece together this.”

i thought that was enough to suggest that im not up to play with what happened.

i will try and be more clear for the elderly.

Dime has only heard a few soundbites and read a few tweets alluding to this collins/bradord thing.

Dime is asking what the actual problem is.
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May 5, 2014 9:18am
Judith

@ peterwn (2,954 comments) says:
May 5th, 2014 at 9:16 am

Collins is not a stupid woman. Arrogance is her biggest fault. She did not target Bradford by mistake – it would have been a well calculated act, but one committed only because of the pressure she has been under.

Bradford being a member of the media has very little to do with this.

The reported conversation was not part of Bradford’s media duties, but instead a private conversation. The implications of Collins publishing the details of that conversation, in a manner that implied a favour was asked for (something she has since clarified as not being the case) was extremely dangerous.

The message is very clear on the surface – talk to a National M.P. about your troubles and you risk having them announced on nation wide T.V.

That is how many New Zealanders will perceive the act – they are not going to look at the politics behind the move or any other such thing than Collins (the bully) was ‘hitting’ Sue Bradford’s daughter out of spite.

Collins HAS to be seen to show a feminine and soft side on this one – she has to back down, and the last thing any of you National supporters need to do now is continue the arrogance – take this one on the chin, and it will blow over – and Collins may come out on top playing the ‘stressed’ card – but play it any other way and its not going to be pretty.
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May 5, 2014 9:25am
Ross12

Judith

I think the key point Cam is making is that Bradford, by mentioning the situation, it was implying she wanted help just like journalists have said that MW ringing the Police it was implying pressure was put on the Police. That is Cam is saying it is hypocrisy to not to treat the situations the same. He is also saying , I think, in both situations it is stupid to make an issue of them , which I would agree with. ( and I think you are saying the same , so we all agree !!)
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May 5, 2014 9:26am
Judith

@ dime (8,846 comments) says:
May 5th, 2014 at 9:18 am

Only one problem Dime – its election year and the games have begun.

Advice from the elderly: –

Purchase lots of popcorn, a box of tissues, and a bottle of your favourite liquor – do up your seat belt, and don your 3 D specs – it’s going to be rough entertainment! 😉
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May 5, 2014 9:27am
Judith

@ Ross12 (948 comments) says:
May 5th, 2014 at 9:26 am

Yeah, I am sort of saying the same thing – but adding that this has the potential to get ugly – unfairly ugly for Collins.

I don’t like Collins, that is no secret – but I believe she has a tough portfolio, and has been placed under stress – with the media circling like hyenas ready to pick up the smell of blood from any of the MP’s its an impossible situation.

It worries me that Collin’s arrogance will inflame the situation – she has to pull her head in, and Key has to be seen to ‘disciplining’ her in some manner – if the general public (most who do not bother to understand the politics involved) are to take this as anything other than just a hiccup.

I didn’t think I’d very say this, but I actually feel sorry for all involved – and as I say everyday – where are the policies – I’m sick of the personalities!
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May 5, 2014 9:33am
ShawnLH

Labour has policies Judith. Let’s see…

1. Allow inflation to spiral out of control.

2. Put more middle class people on welfare

3. Keep the Yellow people out.

4. Spend as much money as possible.

Policies for a better future!
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May 5, 2014 9:39am
David Garrett

The media pressure on Collins has been relentless…I have some idea just what that’s like…and now they are starting to get a reaction I fear for her…I think she would do well to keep the hell off the moronic “twitter”… What possible advantage can that be? Does anyone know if Key is on it? I seriously doubt it..In fact does anyone know how many Ministers are on the stupid thing?

For a poli – or any public figure – anything which allows you to instantly put something out there, without time to reflect on what you are saying, is dangerous…
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May 5, 2014 9:42am
muggins

http://yournz.org/2014/02/18/katie-bradford-on-political-affiliations/

They look alike, don’t they?
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May 5, 2014 9:44am
Judith

@ ShawnLH (2,271 comments) says:
May 5th, 2014 at 9:39 am

No, that is your interpretation of their policies – I don’t particularly like them either – but the point is the MEDIA are not telling us about the policies – they are telling us about the personalities, the bitch fights, and so on.

Sadly a very large number in the electorate will vote on that garbage. And in doing so, all we will become is a rubbish tip!

I’m disgusted with the whole bloody lot of them – they all need to pull their heads in (MPs and Media) and start telling us why voting for them will make this country a better place. I don’t care if Bradford spoke to Collins, if Cunnliffe lives in a house in Herne Bay, or Key has 47 bathrooms in his house – but I do care if my grandchildren can’t get the education they need to become competitive in their chosen careers.
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May 5, 2014 9:45am
Ryan Sproull

The media pressure on Collins has been relentless…I have some idea just what that’s like…and now they are starting to get a reaction I fear for her…I think she would do well to keep the hell off the moronic “twitter”…

Why the scare quotes? Are you suggesting that Twitter is actually something else?

For a poli – or any public figure – anything which allows you to instantly put something out there, without time to reflect on what you are saying, is dangerous…

So are cars. Doesn’t mean they’re not worth driving.

I think NZ politicians engaging with NZ citizens via Twitter is great. Brave move by those politicians who don’t have spin doctors running their accounts for them.
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May 5, 2014 9:46am
muggins

IF BRADFORD DIDN’T WANT ANY FAVOURS WHY DID SHE ASK THEN?
by Cameron Slater on May 5, 2014 at 8:30am
The media are talking up a war with them and Judith Collins, because of a comment by Collins about Katie Bradford asking about the ex-husband’s application to police for a job.

The media have made much of an MP asking Police about an investigation but it appears that they feel free to get ministers to do such favours for them.

Judith Collins has made a rare apology after she earlier claimed a Press Gallery journalist came to her for help for a family member wanting to join the police.

According to TV3, Collins made the claims about TVNZ journalist Katie Bradford, while the Justice Minister being interviewed at the Nation raised the matter in an interview in which she was being questioned about.

Collins later challenged a TV3 journalist to do a story about the claims on Twitter, saying that she had not taken the matter further but felt it was unusual.

“I thought it was very odd and wrong.”

A short time ago Collins issued Bradford an apology.

“Yr example came to mind. Reflected on that. Shouldnt [sic] have.sorry” Collins Tweeted.

So far Collins has not responded to repeated requests for comment.

It is strange and wrong, it isn’t like Bradford is a friend of Judith Collins, so why even mention it unless the implication was for a favour to be done. This is the same argument that the opposition and media have been making against Maurice Williamson…that he was a minister so there was an implied threat.
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May 5, 2014 9:49am
David Garrett

What are “scare quotes”?? I put the word in quotes to indicate I think it is a moronic forum…140 characters, often literally of utter crap…only slightly less moronic than facebook…

You would think it’s “great” (Is that a scare quote too??) Ryan, firstly because you are never likely to be in a position when an unguarded comment is going to do you harm, and secondly because you are an idiot…But good on you if your handle is actually your real name..I dont believe you have ever said…
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May 5, 2014 9:54am
Judith

@ Ryan Sproull (6,670 comments) says:
May 5th, 2014 at 9:46 am

Why the scare quotes? Are you suggesting that Twitter is actually something else?

twitter
ˈtwɪtə/Submit
verb
(of a bird) give a call consisting of repeated light tremulous sounds.
“sparrows twittered under the eaves”
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May 5, 2014 9:54am
dime

“What are “scare quotes”?? I put the word in quotes to indicate I think it is a moronic forum…140 characters, often literally of utter crap…only slightly less moronic than facebook…”

you angry old man lol
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May 5, 2014 9:57am
Judith

I have to agree with David Garrett on this one.

The main reason I dislike Twitter, apart from it being instant and unrecoverable, is because a ‘sender’ has no control over how the message is interpreted by the receiver. In fact, they don’t even know who many of the receivers will be.

The short nature of the messages does not allow much definition or prescribe complicated meanings. People are left to determine the meaning behind them based on their own particular mood/values – which maybe very different to what the message was meant to portray.

Sure use it for ‘happy birthday’ messages – but for political statements – eeeekkk!!!
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May 5, 2014 9:58am
muggins

No-one that I know uses twitter and very few people I know use facebook. I have never used twitter and never will and I only rarely use facebook.
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May 5, 2014 10:00am
Ross12

Does anyone have an NBR online sub. ? What is behind the headline ” Bombshell leaks may wreck NZ election- security analyst ”
Something from Buchanan.
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May 5, 2014 10:00am
Ryan Sproull

What are “scare quotes”?? I put the word in quotes to indicate I think it is a moronic forum…140 characters, often literally of utter crap…only slightly less moronic than facebook…

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/scare-quotes

Not familiar with the use of quotation marks to indicate stupidity.

You would think it’s “great” (Is that a scare quote too??) Ryan, firstly because you are never likely to be in a position when an unguarded comment is going to do you harm,

Unguarded comments can do anyone harm. I’ve used my real name since I joined Kiwiblog seven years ago and since I joined Twitter four years ago precisely to remind myself that I am accountable for my words.

Unguarded comments by public figures can obviously do them more harm, which is why I said it’s brave of politicians to use social media. I think it’s great that they do so because it gives more of the public access to their representatives without going through so much of the filter of public-relations spin. (Still there, of course, along with media training.)

and secondly because you are an idiot…

Jesus, dude, I just disagreed with you about Twitter. Take a pill.

But good on you if your handle is actually your real name..I dont believe you have ever said…

It is. I didn’t realise I was supposed to announce that at some point.
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May 5, 2014 10:01am
Peter

I used to think Collins was quite good. She now looks like a liability displaying poor judgement, arrogance, and seeming inability to grasp the big picture.

Perhaps spend some time on the back bench. Come back after some reflection.
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May 5, 2014 10:09am
ShawnLH

“No, that is your interpretation of their policies”

I thought that was obvious.
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May 5, 2014 10:09am
David Garrett

Ryan: My apologies for calling you an idiot….and this thing gives you unlimited to time to consider your comment before pressing “send” and then four more minutes to reflect further….

Very glad to hear you are one of the very select few who believe one should only share one’s opinions if you are also prepared to stand by them by using you own name…
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May 5, 2014 10:10am
ShawnLH

David G,

bit cranky this morning?

Ryan can sometimes be sensible, though he does tend to lose it when it comes to using drones to fight terrorists.
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May 5, 2014 10:11am
Ryan Sproull

Ryan can sometimes be sensible, though he does tend to lose it when it comes to using drones to fight terrorists.

That reminds me, Shawn. Did you ever get around to confirming that you think the Geneva Conventions apply to drone strikes, due to them being part of a war?
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May 5, 2014 10:13am
Ryan Sproull

Ryan: My apologies for calling you an idiot….and this thing gives you unlimited to time to consider your comment before pressing “send” and then four more minutes to reflect further….

No worries. I actually am an idiot.
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May 5, 2014 10:13am
All_on_Red

Judith
Have you met Collins? Well I have and I found her to be charming and witty. I don’t think she is arrogant at all. Sure she is strong willed , has a back bone of steel and having been a lawyer has a sharp wit which she can use to devastating effect on critics. But arrogant? – no.
You are right in that she does have a tough job and regretfully being a woman and the perceptions which come with that , probably makes it harder.
I think she has withstood quite a bit over the years and the left have tried on many times to get a hit on her and failed.
Now she has been exposed a bit, I see them taking the opportunity to really put the boot into her over something which really is petty and minor. I mean really, why shouldn’t she support her husband by having dinner with his work colleagues. It would probably be taken as offence if she didn’t. And that applies to all of us who help our partners careers. Does Cunliffe go to dinner at his wife’s Environmental legal practice? Of course he does.Given the level of nastiness being poured on her by the media and left I would observe that in contrast Julia Gillard would have played the misogynist card by now and I do wonder if we are seeing that now.
By all accounts she has done a good job for our country.I reckon she should take a week off and go and sit in the sun. Call it stress leave if you like.The media need to look at themselves too.
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May 5, 2014 10:14am
Kea

prepared to stand by them by using you own name…

I would be happy to, but my employment conditions prevent it. Unless I wrote comments about the Weather and the sort of tepid commentary PG provides 😉
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May 5, 2014 10:17am
ShawnLH

Ryan,

The GC does not ban the use of bombs or missiles in war, and that’s all a drone is.
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May 5, 2014 10:18am
muggins

I know of one Judith who is arrogant but her name isn’t actually Judith.
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May 5, 2014 10:18am
Tom Jackson

Have you met Collins? Well I have and I found her to be charming and witty.

You would have to have been raised by the Exclusive Brethren to find Collins charming and witty.
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May 5, 2014 10:19am
All_on_Red

This from the man who thinks Hillary Clinton is the smartest female politician in the US bwahahahaha
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May 5, 2014 10:20am
Ryan Sproull

The GC does not ban the use of bombs or missiles in war, and that’s all a drone is.

Certainly. But you do confirm that you believe that actions in what you call a declared war on al-Qaeda can be evaluated in terms of international definitions of war crimes?
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May 5, 2014 10:20am
ShawnLH

“But you do confirm that you believe that actions in what you call a declared war on al-Qaeda”

It’s not my personal opinion. The US is at war with al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda themselves declared it.

“can be evaluated in terms of international definitions of war crimes?”

I have no idea, and I don’t particularly care. International law, including the GC did not anticipate assymetric warfare, and so the current rules are anachronistic.
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May 5, 2014 10:24am
Tom Jackson

This from the man who thinks Hillary Clinton is the smartest female politician in the US bwahahahaha

You should read more carefully. I said that she is the pre-eminent female politician of her generation, inside or outside of the US. Yes, she is very clever, and a formidable politician, but that’s not quite the same thing as being the smartest.

Can you name one female politician in the US who has a higher profile than Hillary Clinton, who has been first lady, Senator of the most important state in the union, and Secretary of State?
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May 5, 2014 10:26am
Kea

It is not just hyperbole to remark that the US is in breach of international law and conventions with its various military actions. I used to be very pro US, but the more I learn the less that is the case. The US does not live up to the standards it demands of others and nor do some of its allies. I now regard Obama as the biggest single threat to world peace in the modern era. It is not about what is coming, it is about what has already begun.
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May 5, 2014 10:27am
Ryan Sproull

It’s not my personal opinion. The US is at war with al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda themselves declared it.

The application of the legal definitions of war to a relationship with a non-state organisation is not a simple thing. You brought it up as a justification for actions that may be illegal under the rule of law (assassinations) by claiming that these are acts of war, and are therefore legitimate.

“can be evaluated in terms of international definitions of war crimes?”

I have no idea, and I don’t particularly care. International law, including the GC did not anticipate assymetric warfare, and so the current rules are anachronistic.

Okay. What if the US used chemical or biological weapons in a strike on al-Qaeda? Would that be legal? And if not, by which standards are you making that evaluation?

Secondly, if this is a war, can you confirm that you would consider it similarly acceptable for al-Qaeda to use missiles or bombs to strike US leadership in civilian areas?
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May 5, 2014 10:30am
Judith

All_on_Red (1,022 comments) says:
May 5th, 2014 at 10:14 am

Have you met Collins?

Yes I have, both professionally and socially – and no, in person she does not come across as arrogant, and can at times come across as a very caring and feminine woman – so I can understand why Katie discussed the problem she had with her. I don’t think too much should be read into the fact they had that discussion – many women have confided in people like Collins (seeking counsel from the older wiser woman is an old feminine tradition).

However, no matter how nice she is on a personal level – she does come across as arrogant, both in the house and under pressure in public. That is not leader material. Whilst I could never do her job, and would probably tell the media where to stick themselves, I am not running for parliament.

She has to be able to stand the pressure – or give it up. The one thing the past month or so has proven, is she is not PM material. I think some had high hopes for her, but her inability to take the exposure and stress, and her fault of reverting to arrogance in times of pressure has worked against her, especially given her latest opportunistic err.

She will be lucky to survive this – she has to back down and fast, and Key has to find some way to punish her that is acceptable but doesn’t destroy her. If he does nothing, he risks the electorate perceiving him as weak against her arrogance. It’s only a minor mess, but one with potential to get way out of proportion.
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May 5, 2014 10:32am
All_on_Red

Tom
Hillary just trades on name recognition. Despite all her positions can you name any of her achievements?
I mean seriously , what has she ever done. Oh that’s right, Benghazi.
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May 5, 2014 10:34am
All_on_Red

Judith- I agree she does not have the touch needed to be leader. Certainly not the ability Key has. Must go.
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May 5, 2014 10:35am
ShawnLH

“The application of the legal definitions of war to a relationship with a non-state organisation is not a simple thing.”

Agreed.

“You brought it up as a justification for actions that may be illegal under the rule of law (assassinations) by claiming that these are acts of war, and are therefore legitimate.”

Legitimate morally. I don’t care if they are legal according to current IL.

“Okay. What if the US used chemical or biological weapons in a strike on al-Qaeda?”

There would be no reason to do that in the first place.

“Secondly, if this is a war, can you confirm that you would consider it similarly acceptable for al-Qaeda to use missiles or bombs to strike US leadership in civilian areas?”

Moral equivalence is never a good argument. One could argue that the Nazi’s were technically allowed to use bombs and cary out military actions, but nobody (who is not morally confused or a Nazi themselves) would argue that the intentions of Hitler were good.

I know it’s an old fashioned pov, but this really is about good vs evil.
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May 5, 2014 10:37am
ShawnLH

“It is not just hyperbole to remark that the US is in breach of international law and conventions with its various military actions.”

Possibly Kea. Possibly not. There is a lot of debate about that amongst lawyers so it’s not as clear cut as some believe. But as I said, I don’t actually care. International law and the GC did not anticipate asymmetric warfare. We are in very new territory, and the US gov’s first responsibility is to defend it’s citizens and prevent another 911.
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May 5, 2014 10:41am
Chris2

Maurice Williamson appeared on TV3’s “The Nation” on Saturday, and that night on the TV3 news it made a story, and showed footage of how he apparently needed help getting up and standing after that interview.

Williamson appeared on TV One’s “Q+A” on Sunday and the presenter twice drew attention to his taking some Panadene beforehand and that his hands were shaking so much as he struggled to put on his watch.

I think it outrageous of the media to even mention this sort of thing and to make a story out of it. It really demonstrates how low the media has stooped in this country.
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May 5, 2014 10:41am
Kea

Secondly, if this is a war, can you confirm that you would consider it similarly acceptable for al-Qaeda to use missiles or bombs to strike US leadership in civilian areas?

I did not expect that one to be answered and it was not.

Most of the casualties from drone attacks are in fact civilian.
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May 5, 2014 10:42am
ShawnLH

Kea, I did answer it. It’s intentions that matter, and Al-Qaeda’s intentions are evil.

Most of the casualties from drone attacks are terrorists.
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May 5, 2014 10:43am
Tom Jackson

Hillary just trades on name recognition. Despite all her positions can you name any of her achievements?

Are you high?

Go look her up.

If she hadn’t married Bill Clinton, she would have had an even more stellar career. She gave up a lot of her own ambitions for love.
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May 5, 2014 10:46am
Tom Jackson

Maurice Williamson appeared on TV3′s “The Nation” on Saturday, and that night on the TV3 news it made a story, and showed footage of how he apparently needed help getting up and standing after that interview.

I thought that was appalling.
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May 5, 2014 10:47am
Kea

“Moral equivalence is never a good argument. ” followed by “Kea, I did answer it. It’s intentions that matter, and Al-Qaeda’s intentions are evil.”

See the problem ShawnLH ?

As for civilian casualties; I will put my faith in proper reports ahead of propaganda statements. Though I read both with a grain of salt.
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May 5, 2014 10:51am
Ryan Sproull

Legitimate morally. I don’t care if they are legal according to current IL.

If you didn’t care about legality, why go to the trouble of defending allegations of illegality with “it’s war”? Just say, “Assassinations without trial are okay when you’re assassinating evil people, whatever the legal situation – war or otherwise”.

“Okay. What if the US used chemical or biological weapons in a strike on al-Qaeda?”

There would be no reason to do that in the first place.

If there was a reason to do so that you’re not aware of. Perhaps it’s less expensive than a drone strike, or more effective. Again: What if the US used chemical or biological weapons in a strike on al-Qaeda?

Moral equivalence is never a good argument.

Neither is the consistent avoidance of questions. If drone strikes on al-Qaeda leadership in civilian areas are okay because they’re missiles/bombs in a war, and if al-Qaeda is one of the warring parties, then are al-Qaeda missile attacks on US leadership in civilian areas okay? And if not, why not?

One could argue that the Nazi’s were technically allowed to use bombs and cary out military actions, but nobody (who is not morally confused or a Nazi themselves) would argue that the intentions of Hitler were good.

I’m not questioning intentions. I’m questioning tactics. Someone could use nerve gas with the very best of intentions.

I know it’s an old fashioned pov, but this really is about good vs evil.

Evil is as evil does. The moral authority of liberal democracies to use force has always rested on the rule of law and accountability to the electorate. That is what distinguishes a UN peacekeeping force from the unilateral invasion by a dictator. When you take that out of the equation, as you are doing, you don’t have right and wrong, you just have sides.

What you are saying is that the actions of the US government are exempt from the rule of law because a) this is a war, so peacetime laws don’t apply; and b) it’s a special kind of war, so wartime laws don’t apply.
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May 5, 2014 10:51am
ShawnLH

It should be noted that when the allies bombed Germany civilians died as well, possibly mostly civilians.

This is the problem assymetric warfare presents. The very nature of a stateless enemy that often hides amongst civilian populations presents major problems.

But, and this is a point often forgotten, allowing terrorists to simply carry on, without any military intervention, would certainly result in far more civilians being killed by Al-Qaeda and it’s various offshoots.
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May 5, 2014 10:53am
dime

Hillary – just a horrible bug eyed bitch.
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May 5, 2014 10:53am
David Garrett

Chris2: The vermin we call “the media” will be enjoying every second of the terrible toll their relentless pressure is taking on both Collins and Williamson. Their aim quite simply is to destroy them – they are not really the least interested in the rights or wrongs of either case.

I am perhaps the only commenter here who has any idea how it feels to be the harried fox with the baying hounds behind…But I only had it for a week or so; Minister Collins has had unrelenting pressure for a month or more.

The worst example was year or two ago when the mongrels bailed up Nick Smith at Wellington airport…Smith was on his way to resign, and everyone knew it…they literally chased him through Wellington airport until, in desparation, he turned and asked them to show him some humanity…They completely ignored him, in fact they closed in, hoping no doubt that he would sink to the floor in abject despair and lose it completely….

I have nothing but contempt for most of them…Gower and that little Indian looking one on TV3 in particular…they are simply scum. Several of the radio political journos are alright…
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May 5, 2014 10:55am
tom hunter

If she hadn’t married Bill Clinton, she would have had an even more stellar career. She gave up a lot of her own ambitions for love.

This.

This is how comedy is done.
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May 5, 2014 10:56am
Kea

The vermin we call “the media”

DG, why so complimentary are you going soft ? 😉
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May 5, 2014 11:00am
dime

Bruv – just for you:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11209382
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May 5, 2014 11:01am
ShawnLH

“Perhaps it’s less expensive than a drone strike, or more effective.”

It would not be more effective.

“Neither is the consistent avoidance of questions.”

I’m not avoiding them, I’m just not answering them the way you want, because I’m not playing your particular ideological game.

“If drone strikes on al-Qaeda leadership in civilian areas are okay because they’re missiles/bombs in a war, and if al-Qaeda is one of the warring parties, then are al-Qaeda missile attacks on US leadership in civilian areas okay? And if not, why not?”

Al-Qaeda is evil

“Evil is as evil does.”

Only partly. Evil is also about intentions.

“The moral authority of liberal democracies to use force has always rested in the rule of law and accountability to the electorate.”

The moral authority of the US rests with US law and accountability to it’s own people, not international bodies.

“When you take that out of the equation, as you are doing, you don’t have right and wrong, you just have sides.”

That rests on your assumption about “liberal democracies” an assumption I don’t share.

“What you are saying is that the actions of the US government are exempt from the rule of law because a) this is a war, so peacetime laws don’t apply; and b) it’s a special kind of war, so wartime laws don’t apply.”

International law does not apply. US law does.
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May 5, 2014 11:01am
ShawnLH

Whether or not drone strikes violate international law in the first place is a matter of opinion. There is debate about that because the law is not clear. So long as the US gov believes they do not, that is good enough for me.
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May 5, 2014 11:06am
Ryan Sproull

“Perhaps it’s less expensive than a drone strike, or more effective.”

It would not be more effective.

If there was a reason for the US to use chemical or biological weapons in a strike on al-Qaeda, by which standard would that action be evaluated, if not the law?

I’m not avoiding them, I’m just not answering them the way you want, because I’m not playing your particular ideological game.

You’re not answering them at all. And they’re some pretty straightforward questions.

Shawn, if drone strikes on al-Qaeda leadership in civilian areas are okay because they’re missiles/bombs in a war, and if al-Qaeda is one of the warring parties, then are al-Qaeda missile attacks on US leadership in civilian areas okay? And if not, why not?

“What you are saying is that the actions of the US government are exempt from the rule of law because a) this is a war, so peacetime laws don’t apply; and b) it’s a special kind of war, so wartime laws don’t apply.”

International law does not apply. US law does.

US law includes obligations to international laws to which the US is a signatory.
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May 5, 2014 11:06am
Ryan Sproull

Whether or not drone strikes violate international law in the first place is a matter of opinion. There is debate about that because the law is not clear. So long as the US gov believes they do not, that is good enough for me.

Why make this point when you have stated that you do not care about the law?

And whence is derived your reliance on the authority of this state to determine for you the legitimacy of its own actions?
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May 5, 2014 11:10am
ShawnLH

“You’re not answering them at all.”

Sorry Ryan, but yes I have. My answers just do not fit your notion of laws and right and wrong.

“Shawn, if drone strikes on al-Qaeda leadership in civilian areas are okay because they’re missiles/bombs in a war, and if al-Qaeda is one of the warring parties, then are al-Qaeda missile attacks on US leadership in civilian areas okay? And if not, why not?”

Al-Qaeda is evil. Their actions and intentions are evil. That is a clear and simple answer. If your confused by that, that’s your problem.

“US law includes obligations to international laws to which the US is a signatory.”

That is arguable to say the least. There is reasonable opinion that the US signing international law violates the constitution, and are thus illegitimate.

My view is that the US constitution is all that matters.
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May 5, 2014 11:10am
Kea

ShawnLH, are you aware that the oppossing side sees the US as an evil and immoral society that offends God and decency ?

Both sides claim the moral high ground. This is the problem with your position. That is why we have rules around these sorts of actions. Those rules are not based on what is considered “evil” by the opposing side.
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May 5, 2014 11:12am
ShawnLH

“Both sides claim the moral high ground. This is the problem with your position.”

Both sides in WW2 claimed the moral high ground. Was the Nazi claim more or less legitimate than the allies, and how would you evaluate that?
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May 5, 2014 11:15am
Kea

The moral authority of the US rests with US law and accountability…My view is that the US constitution is all that matters.

Wrong, but lets play with it….The US is in breach of many of its own laws in the War On Terror… Do you accept other countries claiming moral authority based on their laws ?
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May 5, 2014 11:18am

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