General Debate 28 May 2014

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big bruv

“You’re talking about rival tribes there. How many IRA-types invoked Jesus, Mary and Joseph before letting off bombs? And how many UVF-types quoted the Geneva Bible to justify their actions?”

Nice!….making excuses for religious bigots now.
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May 28, 2014 3:30pm
big bruv

Bedwetter

Are you now denying that you once claimed to be agnostic?
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May 28, 2014 3:32pm
mandk

You’re simply exposing your ignorance and naivety, bb.

The Northern Irish conflict is between the republican tribe and the unionist tribe.

Are you saying that Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness would object to protestants joining Sinn Fein?
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May 28, 2014 3:48pm
Judith

@ Elaycee (4,169 comments) says:
May 28th, 2014 at 3:14 pm

There original violence was probably intended for the meat works, but there was an ongoing battle between that group and another of the same religion that had a farm or land up in the Waitakeres. I remember a group of the Waitak’s lot arrriving one day and there was a yelling match in the street, with one group threatening to dispose of the other.

I guess one group were peace loving, the other not. My boss, a guy by the name of Harry Andrews made a complaint to the cops because he worried about the couple of young girls that worked for him and had to catch the bus at the stop that was directly in front of their building. Obviously they didn’t investigate it, because it wasn’t long after the street was full of spagetti.
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May 28, 2014 4:17pm
David Garrett

Judith@ 12.39…I asked for an example of a CHRISTIAN sect…the hare krishnas and any other sect whose members – as opposed to clergy – went about in white robes in the 70’s almost certainly weren’t Christian…your original claim at 10.44 was that there were Christians IN NEW ZEALAND threatening to off each other for deviating from the true path…you have failed to cite an example…

To those – like our leftie friend Milky – who say we have nothing to fear from Muslim immigration, please tell me why on earth we would be any different from any other western country whose Muslim population climbs above 2%? We have less that 1% Muslims and we have seen the first of what will be many internecine struggles between so called moderates and hardliners in the Avondale mosque…across the Tasman the Muslim population is double ours at over 2% and in Oz there are strident demands already for this or that facility to be made available to Muslims only, and low level violence between Muslims trying to enforce their 7th century creed and ordinary Australians…Back in the Home country the Muslim population is 5% plus, and there are whole areas of cities to which even the police wont go…and home grown jihadis blowing things up…

So do tell me Milky, and anyone else who says we have nothing to fear: Why on earth would it be different here??
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May 28, 2014 4:19pm
David Garrett

“the street was full of spaghetti”?? Que??
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May 28, 2014 4:27pm
Judith

@Garrett

Scott (1,632 comments) says:
May 28th, 2014 at 10:32 am
This is what is happening in New Zealand right now among Muslims–

“The right-hand man of a Muslim leader at the centre of an Auckland mosque row has been charged with threatening to kill.

To which I posted:

yeah, like that has never happened in New Zealand before among non-Muslims.

And you came back with:

” Please do point us to the occasion where a member of some faction of a Christian church – any old bizarre sect of cranks will do..”

You changed the terms of reference to Christian, where mine was simply non-muslim. You got your answer based on the terms of reference in my original statement. I did not specify christian, therefore you had no right to ask for a specific example by those terms. I don’t know of any christian related threats, but then I never said I did!

Typical lawyer!
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May 28, 2014 4:32pm
Judith

@ David Garrett (5,440 comments) says:
May 28th, 2014 at 4:27 pm

Two of the victims of the bomb blast were thrown into the air and they came down through a wire mesh fence. The street quite literally was full of stuff that looked a bit like spagetti – I guess they were ligaments or whatever, covered in blood. I remember part of a hand and the fingers looked like they were still moving. Quite a surreal experience.
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May 28, 2014 4:35pm
Kimbo

Two of the victims of the bomb blast were thrown into the air and they came down through a wire mesh fence. The street quite literally was full of stuff that looked a bit like spagetti – I guess they were ligaments or whatever, covered in blood. I remember part of a hand and the fingers looked like they were still moving. Quite a surreal experience.

Hmm. Based on current trends, a good warning for what is likely to be left at the first meeting of the Labour Party caucus after September 20?
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May 28, 2014 4:43pm
Judith

@ Kimbo (521 comments) says:
May 28th, 2014 at 4:43 pm

Spagetti in the streets? That would indicate they had some guts – something which is yet to be proven! 😉

Or were you meaning the result of any possible rioting? I suspect people will be too busy boarding airplanes to riot. One would want a pretty quick exit should labour when the election on their own. It will mean either extreme corruption, or the second coming.
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May 28, 2014 4:46pm
Manolo

The fantasist from Karori is shitting on NZ again:
Sue Moroney still has the numbers to pass her paid parental leave bill despite the government’s budget decision to increase it from 14 to 18 weeks. The Labour MP’s member’s bill would increase it to 26 weeks.

It won’t become law because the government is going to use its financial veto to kill it on its third reading.

But it’s still on parliament’s agenda and could come up for its second reading on Wednesday night – unless government MPs run a filibuster. Everyone in parliament outside National and ACT support Ms Moroney’s bill, which gives her 61 votes against the government’s 60.

The single vote majority is coming from United Future leader Peter Dunne, who usually votes with the government. He confirmed on Wednesday he was still supporting the bill.

http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8851765/moroneys-bill-still-has-the-numbers
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May 28, 2014 4:55pm
Elaycee

I think some folk are being a bit harsh on the two blokes who blew themselves up….

Maybe they had just followed the instruction of their leaders to ‘spread their message far and wide’… 😯

PS: Was the other ‘faction’ the Ananda Marga? IIRC, they were up to mischief during the 70’s.
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May 28, 2014 4:56pm
David Garrett

Judith: Touche…You are right, you did not specify “Christian” maniacs…so a tactical regrouping and a rephrasing: OTHER THAN the case of some obscure sect 40 years ago, when did any kind of serious violence (where blood was shed) between Christian sects – or Christian sect on some other group – in New Zealand occur?

A bit convoluted, but I think my meaning is clear…And you have already said you don’t know of any, so I suppose I am addressing my question to anyone who might know of such an outrage…I don’t recall anything about the incident in 1976, but then I was working in the North Sea at the time…
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May 28, 2014 5:04pm
stigie

“The thing is, with Bigot Bruv and Narskissa, it probably isn’t that they were molested that upsets them. Its more likely to be the discovery that they enjoyed it.”

Hes back again folks, doing what he does best to most of the Kiwibloggers here who want to comment without abuse !
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May 28, 2014 5:19pm
big bruv

mandk

Clearly you are an apologist for religious murder.

Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness committed murder in the name of their church, as did Johnny Adair, Michael Stone and Billy Wright (look them up, I know you will have never heard of them) in the name of their religion.

What made me sick about the entire thing is that it was sectarian violence, violence and hatred inbred into young people by their churches and religious leaders. Once group of sky fairy followers wanted the right to rule over the other and force them to live by their religious laws.

You can make apologies for your religion if you like but please don’t tell lies or attempt to paint things as they are not.
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May 28, 2014 5:21pm
nasska

He’s a sad case stigie.
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May 28, 2014 5:26pm
Judith

@ David Garrett (5,442 comments) says:
May 28th, 2014 at 5:04 pm

I can’t think of any cases, unless you include the old Catholic couple across the road from where I lived as a kid. They went to different Catholic churches because she hated being seen in public with him. She was always threatening to do him in!

I haven’t been in a church for anything other than funerals, marriages and christenings for thirty years. The last church I was a member of (much to my Anglican parents disgust) was the Baptist Church Rev. Bridges preached at (Simon’s Dad). I was an active member of the Youth For Christ organisation, and used to hang out at the Lighthouse, a Christian nightclub in the inner city – and I don’t remember any fights – but it was when I was young, stupid and easily fooled. Christian guys used to be the cutest.
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May 28, 2014 5:38pm
nasska

….” Christian guys used to be the cutest”….

What drugs were you taking Judith? 🙂
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May 28, 2014 5:41pm
Judith

@ nasska (9,967 comments) says:
May 28th, 2014 at 5:41 pm

That was 1975-76. The second stage of my rebellion started in 1977 when I discovered the joys of sinning! 😉
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May 28, 2014 5:43pm
stigie

….” Christian guys used to be the cutest”….

I would imagine you would be to experienced for those dudes Judith !~
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May 28, 2014 5:46pm
publicwatchdog

Here you go Kiwibloggers, a bit of light reading 🙂

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10092943/White-collar-criminals-hiding-in-cracks

High time for NZ to ratify the UN Convention Against Corruption (UNCAC) and establish a genuinely Independent Commission Against Corruption.

While we’re at it – where’s National’s review of ‘corporate welfare’?

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1111/S00095/wheres-nationals-corporate-welfare-reform.htm

(Seems there is a link between corporate welfare and corruption?

What are the connections between those awarding the contracts and those to whom the contracts are awarded?

Seen this?

https://at.govt.nz/about-us/procurement/awarded-contracts/

Awarded contracts

Auckland Transport is committed to ensuring its procurement activities are undertaken in an ethical and transparent manner.

The attached lists detail all of the contracts awarded in the previous six months that are valued over $50,000.00. Details include:

the contract number,
the contract name,
the supplier, and the
award value.

View the latest awarded contracts list (PDF 52KB)

(https://at.govt.nz/media/353833/AwardedContracts.pdf )

Disclaimer: we endeavour to list all contracts awarded above the value of $50,000.00 in the previous six months. Whilst all possible care and effort has been taken to ensure accuracy in this list, we accept no responsibility for any errors or omissions. Accordingly, this list should be used for reference only.”

Now check for links between ‘contracts issued’ by Auckland Transport, and member companies for the Committee for Auckland:

http://www.committeeforauckland.co.nz/membership/member-organisations

(You may note that in a truly ‘transparent’ way – the Committee for Auckland membership list now no longer gives the NAMES of those who represent their companies?

Gosh – I wonder why that is???

Now look for that ‘devilish detail’ on the Auckland Council website regarding ‘contracts issued’?

http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/EN/Pages/default.aspx

Looking forward to the considered opinion of the ‘Taxpayers Union’ on these matters …..

Penny Bright
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May 28, 2014 5:48pm
stigie

We dont expect you to pay yours rates Penny !~
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May 28, 2014 5:50pm
big bruv

Penny

When can I come and view the house?
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May 28, 2014 5:53pm
nasska

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sx456qe1favekkt/Cuckoo%201.jpg
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May 28, 2014 5:54pm
David Garrett

Penny: Serious question…do you take regular medication? ( I ask in a caring and sharing way you understand…)
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May 28, 2014 6:02pm
stigie

Well, if it looks like that Nasska, i would rather live in a ‘P’ house ole chap !~
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May 28, 2014 6:03pm
Judith

@ stigie (715 comments) says:
May 28th, 2014 at 5:46 pm

Sheesh, I was an angel when I first got involved – when I departed I had more in common with the devil! 😉
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May 28, 2014 6:10pm
UglyTruth

Be under absolutely NO illusions: Islam don’t care about you or me or anyone;

And We have sent you (O Muhammad ) not but as a mercy for the ‘Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).
Quran 21:107

it only cares about the establishment of a Second Caliphate which to them equate with the return of Jesus Christ.

In the Quran the caliphate refers to David, not to Christ.

O Dawud (David)! Verily! We have placed you as a successor on earth, so judge you between men in truth (and justice) and follow not your desire for it will mislead you from the Path of Allah.
Quran 38:26

To accomplish this, Muslims will lie and deceive (with permission of the koran BTW), and do all and anything to achieve this.

And whenever you give your word (i.e. judge between men or give evidence, etc.), say the truth even if a near relative is concerned, and fulfill the Covenant of Allah, This He commands you, that you may remember.
Quran 6:152

In addition, the ‘West’ is seen as decadent and has to be destroyed. The koran says so.

So many fuckwits, so little time.
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May 28, 2014 6:14pm
stigie

And now Judith, you could fit in quite well with Johnboys way of life perhaps ?
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May 28, 2014 6:16pm
David Garrett

Christ…another one who needs medication…

Me? regular lithium carbonate keeps the head chemicals on a fairly even keel….a certain double killer can put things out of whack though…
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May 28, 2014 6:18pm
Judith

@ stigie (716 comments) says:
May 28th, 2014 at 6:16 pm

Johnboy has a life?
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May 28, 2014 6:19pm
Johnboy

I’m a tad fussy about the Ewe’s I share my home paddock with stigie!

While Judith sounds like a possible contender, being less than 1.65m in diameter, just let me be the final judge of her suitability old chap! 🙂
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May 28, 2014 6:21pm
stigie

By the sounds of it Judith, its suppose to be quite spectacular ?
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May 28, 2014 6:23pm
Johnboy

Would you consider your lips to be Cascade, Electrolux or Dyson Judith? 🙂
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May 28, 2014 6:23pm
mikenmild

Johnboy’s life consists of more than posting on Kiwiblog and ‘worrying’ sheep.
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May 28, 2014 6:24pm
Johnboy

Im very ‘worried’ about how you reluctant Catholics will fare in the Hardham Cup milkey! 🙂
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May 28, 2014 6:28pm
mikenmild

HOB will not be in the Hardham Cup.
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May 28, 2014 6:29pm
mandk

@ bb,
I am familiar with Adair, Stone and Wright.
They are all ultra-right wing thugs who hate Catholics.
That doesn’t make the Protestant or any kind of Christian.
When did they do anything in the name of their Lord Jesus Christ?
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May 28, 2014 6:30pm
Johnboy

“HOB will not be in the Hardham Cup.”

Noted that you left the “M” for “Marist” off milkey! 🙂
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May 28, 2014 6:34pm
mikenmild

‘Keep religion out of rugby’ remains one of my mottos.
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May 28, 2014 6:35pm
SGA

mikenmild at 6:35 pm

‘Keep religion out of rugby’ remains one of my mottos.

Is rugby one of few (only?) sports where a “united” Ireland traditionally competes?
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May 28, 2014 6:40pm
mikenmild

Wikipedia is so helpful:
‘In Ireland, hockey, rowing, cricket, rugby union, are organised in an all-island basis, with a single team representing the whole of Ireland in international competitions. Other sports, such as soccer and netball, have separate organizing bodies in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.’
I think the gaelic sports might be organised Ireland-wide also.
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May 28, 2014 6:43pm
PhilP

I have often wondered where Redbaiter sits on the political spectrum. He’s a CC sympathizer but seems to me he would be a good fit for ACT, with his views. What do you think?
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May 28, 2014 6:56pm
mikenmild

I think he belongs in a sheltered asylum.
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May 28, 2014 7:00pm
nasska

PhilP

As far as Baity is concerned ACT & the CCCP are dirty, socialist communists & probably homosexual, progressive scum.

He’s far further to the Right of the political spectrum.
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May 28, 2014 7:02pm
SGA

mikenmild at 6:43 pm

Wikipedia is so helpful: …

Danke shun.
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May 28, 2014 7:03pm
Johnboy

Red has one redeeming feature…He hates Catholics milkey! 🙂
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May 28, 2014 7:04pm
PhilP

nasska, he must be so sad and lonely.
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May 28, 2014 7:09pm
big bruv

mandk

Adair, Wright and Stone are Protestants, they murdered innocent and no so innocent Catholics for years. In return you had the same equally odious scum who killed in the name of the Roman Catholic church, the most visible of these low life were McGuiness and Adams.

What annoys me is that you are well aware of these facts, yet because you are an apologist for religious terrorism you try and muddy the waters by claiming they were not real men of your god.

Even a simpleton can understand that religion is at the heart of Irelands problems, even as late as the 1990’s divorce was illegal in Eire, this was due to the evil influence of the Roman Catholic church yet these same Catholics were more than happy to take over the north via terror (against the wishes of the Protestants) and enforce their religious law on all citizens of Ireland.

Those of us who are keen to keep reminding others about the evil of Islam would do well to remember that our own superstitions are far from perfect when it comes to blowing people up or murdering innocent individuals.
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May 28, 2014 7:09pm
mikenmild

I’m not overly fond of them myself, Johnboy.
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May 28, 2014 7:09pm
Johnboy

Do the Priests ever shout at the HOBM clubrooms milkey?
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May 28, 2014 7:11pm
Redbaiter

Want to know why Milky tends to classify anyone who challenges left wing conventional wisdom as insane?

He’s an old style Marxist/ Leninist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union
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May 28, 2014 7:14pm
nasska

He hasn’t been himself today PhilP. Last night he reached out for the Vaseline and picked up Vicks Vaporub by mistake. 🙂
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May 28, 2014 7:14pm
stigie

No PhilP, he does have his muscle car you know, just to piss off us progs !!~
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May 28, 2014 7:16pm
mikenmild

Don’t know Johnboy, I’m not that much of a club man. Went to the centenary bash a few years back, but didn’t notice any priests in evidence.
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May 28, 2014 7:17pm
mikenmild

Aw Reddy, it’s not an abuse of psychiatry if you have a genuine mental illness. Just follow the doctor’s instructions and it’ll turn out okay.
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May 28, 2014 7:18pm
Johnboy

So you weren’t even there to see the lovely little girly Ref disallow the non-try then milkey?
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May 28, 2014 7:19pm
mikenmild

Missed that one
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May 28, 2014 7:20pm
Johnboy

Best looking Ref I’ve ever seen! 🙂
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May 28, 2014 7:21pm
nasska

His cock may be eight inches shorter than the average woman’s dildo but Baity’s got the wheels.

He Da Man! 🙂

Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/z5q02xwx9i4czmb/Wankstain%201.jpg
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May 28, 2014 7:28pm
stigie

Thought he was trading back to a Skoda Nasska, the muscle car being too showey ?
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May 28, 2014 7:32pm
mandk

bb
Ok, find me a statement from any of the people you mentioned that shows they did what they did in the name of their Lord Jesus Christ.

The difference between Adair et al and Islamic terrorists is that the latter really do commit atrocities in the name of their god. Islamic terrorists are fighting what they regard as a holy war.

Republican and Unionist terrorists in Northern Ireland are equally despicable, but they are not faith-driven.
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May 28, 2014 7:42pm
kowtow

bigot bruv is proving himself to be the bigot he is.

None of the IRA killing was ever done in the name of the Roman catholic church,it was done in the name of the Irish Republic. To this day that tradition recalls the United Irishmen of 1798 ,the leaders of which were protestants inspired by the American and French revolutions.

The RC church was always and from the outset opposed to republican violence,vehemently so and to the extent of denying the gunmen the sacraments.Most of the early victims of their violence were Irish Catholic policemen,some of whom were shot coming out of and on the steps of Church.

http://irishmedals.org/r-i-c-d-m-p-k-i-a-.html
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May 28, 2014 7:49pm
nasska

I was invited to a Muslim wedding yesterday. To be honest, the reception was not much different from a regular bash, with kids running riot & sliding across the dance floor on their knees.

All of a sudden, Mohammed gets up & gives a young girl of about eight who was rolling about the floor a smack, tells her to behave & to go sit with her mother. “That was a bit harsh” I said, “In NZ, we expect kids to be a bit lively at a wedding reception”

“Maybe so” he growled, “However, in Islam we expect a bit more decorum from the bride.”
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May 28, 2014 8:00pm
kowtow

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1985-03-04/news/8501120692_1_northern-ireland-irish-republican-army-gunmen-royal-ulster-constabulary-officers
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May 28, 2014 8:03pm
big bruv

mandk & kowtow

I am amazed that you two are so furiously trying to rewrite history, your attempts are almost up there with the very best of our left wing politicians.

The violence was (and remains) of a sectarian nature. Of course it does have other elements however the main dividing line which remains to this day is drawn down sectarian lines.

The pair of you are a disgrace, you are nothing more than religious apologists who will stop at nothing to hide the evil committed in the name of your god.
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May 28, 2014 8:37pm
big bruv

Moroney’s paid parental leave bill set to fail as Flavell is not in the house.

Not only is this fucking hilarious but it is a win for the tax payer.
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May 28, 2014 8:57pm
mandk

bb,

Sorry, but that’s a feeble response.
I’m not an apologist for anything, and I explicitly condemned the atrocities done by Adams, Adair et al.
I invited you to demonstrate that what the terrorists in N Ireland have done was in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Still waiting.
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May 28, 2014 9:07pm
Kimbo

@ big bruv

Even a simpleton can understand that religion is at the heart of Irelands problems

Then kindly explain to this simpleton, if you don’t mind, why Irish Catholics and Protestants lived in peace together, wherever they immigrated in the world – England, Scotland (with the exception of Celtic vs Rangers, & Hibs vs Hearts), Canada, USA, Australia, and New Zealand.

Ulster is a localised feud, with religion as the initial cause some 350 years ago, but it has long subsided into the excuse for the ridiculous conflict.

Bigots come in many guises, religious, agnostic and athiest, with their doctrine and ideology causing, shaping but also justifying the baser aspects of their existing human nature. Get rid of religion and you may get some localised reduction of the problem in some cases…but you can be very sure people will soon find another quasi-religious reason to start another feud.
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May 28, 2014 9:39pm
big bruv

Kimbo

Your claim that Catholics and Protestants live together peacefully in Scotland is laughable. I lived in Scotland for nearly seven years, the religious divide in Glasgow in particular is still as strong and still as vicious.

“Ulster is a localised feud, with religion as the initial cause some 350 years ago, but it has long subsided into the excuse for the ridiculous conflict.”

Thank you for admitting that I was right. I do take issue with you however that the religious element has subsided. When you have religion indoctrinating its young to hate the other side then there will always be violent young men (as Adams, McGuiness, Adair and co all are) willing to take up the fight. If anything they use their religion as some sort of shield to hide behind, however one should never forget that the root cause of the problems (as you have admitted) is religion.
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May 28, 2014 9:51pm
Kimbo

But other than a few loaclised pockets in Glasgow and Edinburgh (which I acknowledged in my original post, and where the Protestants are Scottish, rather than Orangemen) we are in agreement this Irish Catholic/Protestant sectarian violence is NOT an issue in New Zealand (which was the original locus of discussion), or Canada, USA, and Australia…

If not…why not?
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May 28, 2014 9:57pm
big bruv

Kimbo

You really need to stop digging. All over Scotland there are orange march’s, it is not an uncommon thing at all to see them. It is just about a bloody requirement to obtain a Rangers FC season ticket that one is also an Orangeman.

Now, to the question you posed. (Which is really nothing more than a diversionary tactic given that this debate started by somebody making the ridiculous assertion that there were very few conflicts of religious origins)

The reason so many live in peace in the countries you name is self evident, by and large NZ, Aus and Canada are secular nations and while the USA is a country that is fucked up by religion it is at least free from religions evil influence because of the constitution.
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May 28, 2014 10:07pm
big bruv

mandk

“I’m not an apologist for anything, and I explicitly condemned the atrocities done by Adams, Adair et al.”

You are an apologist if you refuse to admit that these atrocities were committed in the name of your god.

You speak as if religion is some sort of force for good in the world when clearly all the evidence proves that it is not.
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May 28, 2014 10:10pm
mandk

“If anything they use their religion as some sort of shield to hide behind”

So we’re agreed, bb, it’s not actually religious.

It’s tribal.

btw, I lived in Scotland longer than you did, and sectarianism is now but a shadow of its former self. The vast majority of Scots have no time for it. The Orange Order is looked upon as a joke, and all but a few blue-nosed Rangers fans are happy that Catholics play for the club.
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May 28, 2014 10:19pm
mandk

“You are an apologist if you refuse to admit that these atrocities were committed in the name of your god”

Yes, I do refuse to admit that, and I have invited you to prove me wrong.

I’m still waiting for you to show me that the atrocities related to the NI conflict were committed in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
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May 28, 2014 10:22pm
SPC

So a day on GD, of attack of Moslems, Marxists and feminists – as Christians, without mentioning their own religion, attack those not subservient to their own order of rule.
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May 28, 2014 10:34pm
mandk

SPC, Christians (me included) prefer to call it contending for the faith.
We gave up using thumb screws and the rack on heretics and non-believers ages ago 🙂
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May 28, 2014 11:10pm
Odakyu-sen

Just got back from fishing out on the Hauraki Gulf, off the northeastern side of Waiheke. Got 3 snapper and 5 large slimy mackerel. The only fish with glazed eyes swimming around in circles was one small Marxist yellow-tailed mackerel that the skipper used as live Redbait for kingfish (which wouldn’t touch it).

I spent about an hour on the back deck this evening, scaling, gutting and filleting my catch. (I eat what I kill.) I tried a bit of the mackerel as sashimi, and it was delicious!

I tell you, we are lucky indeed to be able to enjoy the outdoors here in New Zealand!
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May 29, 2014 12:15am
Manolo

The Pope denies being a Catholic: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2641713/Im-NOT-WEAK-Obama-hits-foreign-policy-critics-vows-ramp-support-Syrian-rebels.html
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May 29, 2014 6:04am
Kimbo

@ big bruv

Now, to the question you posed. (Which is really nothing more than a diversionary tactic given that this debate started by somebody making the ridiculous assertion that there were very few conflicts of religious origins)

The reason so many live in peace in the countries you name is self evident, by and large NZ, Aus and Canada are secular nations and while the USA is a country that is fucked up by religion it is at least free from religions evil influence because of the constitution.

Hmm. Cheers. Interesting post.

Your problem with that analysis is that neither Canada, Australia, nor New Zealand were secular countries at their inception – when Catholics and Protestants were living side by side, forging a nation. Instead, through legislation like Emancipation of Catholics in the UK in the 1820s, a religious country legislated itself due to religious motivations (equality and justice for all before the law) into a non-sectarian nation. And colonial societies which drew its settlers from that homeland reflected that arrangement (although obviously bigotry remained at a social level, just like it remained towards black Americans after the Civil War. “Haters gonna hate”!)

But “non-sectarian” is actually NOT the same as “secular”. And constitutionally New Zealand remains non-sectarian, rather than secular. There is not much between the two of them, but I would have thought non-sectariansim is a pragmatic approach, compared to, say, France, which tears itself apart every couple of generations, trying to impose a purist and unworkable secular Utopia on its citizens.

Nevertheless, you make a good case that legal safeguards are required to keep freedom from religion, and the almost unstoppable desire of its adherents to control others in place.
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May 29, 2014 8:15am
Kimbo

@ big bruv

Also, just to be pedantic, the initial discussion was not framed by “the ridiculous assertion that there were very few conflicts of religious origins”. Instead, it was kicked off by David Garret’s invitation in response to a discussion about religious conflict IN NEW ZEALAND, and it was Scott Chris, mandk, and yourself who went wandering off the reservation, as follows: –

Judith (6,305 comments) says:
May 28th, 2014 at 10:44 am
Scott (1,632 comments) says:
May 28th, 2014 at 10:32 am
This is what is happening in New Zealand right now among Muslims–

“The right-hand man of a Muslim leader at the centre of an Auckland mosque row has been charged with threatening to kill.

yeah, like that has never happened in New Zealand before among non-Muslims.

David Garrett (5,450 comments) says:
May 28th, 2014 at 11:00 am
Judith: Please do point us to the occasion where a member of some faction of a Christian church – any old bizarre sect of cranks will do – was charged with threatening to kill a member of a rival faction…Just in your own time…I am off to run errands…back in a couple of hours…that should give you plenty of time..

Scott Chris (5,757 comments) says:
May 28th, 2014 at 2:18 pm
point us to the occasion where a member of some faction of a Christian church – any old bizarre sect of cranks will do – was charged with threatening to kill a member of a rival faction

Umm, Protestants vs Catholics in Northern Ireland for starters.

mandk (776 comments) says:
May 28th, 2014 at 3:18 pm
Scott Chris: “Protestants vs Catholics in Northern Ireland for starters”

You’re talking about rival tribes there. How many IRA-types invoked Jesus, Mary and Joseph before letting off bombs? And how many UVF-types quoted the Geneva Bible to justify their actions?

big bruv (12,513 comments) says:
May 28th, 2014 at 3:30 pm
“You’re talking about rival tribes there. How many IRA-types invoked Jesus, Mary and Joseph before letting off bombs? And how many UVF-types quoted the Geneva Bible to justify their actions?”

Nice!….making excuses for religious bigots now.

—————————-

And away we went…

I DON’T dispute for a moment that religion can and does cause conflict, although I don’t think invariably. And neither is it necessarily the primary cause. Nonetheless you’ve given your reason why it doesn’t occur on New Zealand – secularism.

Mind you, since when does passing a law make something so, especially at asocial level?! Maybe, even though they had a violent past, there was something inherent WITHIN Protestantism and Catholicism that opened them up to significant and lasting reform (pockets of Ulster and Glasgow aside – which others have argued is no longer primarily religious in nature. Sure, religious language is used, as you would expect when religion is the excuse).

Whereas Islam, which in its purist and natural form DEMANDS a fusion of mosque and state, is destined for inevitable conflict with non-Muslims. That is the argument. Not that I necessarily agree, as Turkey, a Muslim country has had a secular constitution and government for nearly 100 years…
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May 29, 2014 9:19am

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