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May 12, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 12 May 2014

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Kea

SOURCE: Times of Israel

Israel guilty of ‘bleak’ and ‘severe’ human rights abuses, local NGO asserts

Civil rights group’s report decries situation in the West Bank, among the Bedouin, and relating to African migrants in Tel Aviv

Israel is guilty of “particularly severe” human rights violations, both in the Palestinian territories and Israel proper, according to a scathing new report by one of the country’s premier rights organizations.

According to the 2012 report of the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, the situation in Israel is “bleak” in almost every category of human rights, particularly housing

“The prevalent attitude toward African asylum seekers in Israel in 2012 was one of racism and xenophobia,” the report asserts. “Over the course of the year, Israeli citizens burned, beat, cursed and looted on a scale and in a manner never seen before. Molotov cocktails were thrown at the homes of asylum seekers and at a kindergarten in the Shapira neighborhood of Tel Aviv.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-guilty-of-bleak-and-severe-human-rights-abuses-report-asserts/
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May 12, 2014 12:32pm
stephieboy

mollyhawk, Blacks in Israel.? Treated appallingly .? In other Islamic countries as well ,?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_Arab_world

He is without sin cast the first stone…
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May 12, 2014 12:33pm
Fletch

stephie, the thing is, what we call slavery is not the same as what was practiced in the ancient world.

The “slavery” in the ANE (Ancient Near East) is not the same as the kind of slavery as in the Americas.
In the ANE, people even used to sell themselves into slavery to pay off a debt, or parents used to sell their children into slavery – this was the most common. And it was not the slavery with chains and being locked up; it was more akin to being a servant and living in the same house as the master.

“Scholars do not agree on a definition of “slavery.” The term has been used at various times for a wide range of institutions, including plantation slavery, forced labor, the drudgery of factories and sweatshops, child labor, semivoluntary prostitution, bride-price marriage, child adoption for payment, and paid-for surrogate motherhood. Somewhere within this range, the literal meaning of “slavery” shifts into metaphorical meaning, but it is not entirely clear at what point. A similar problem arises when we look at other cultures. The reason is that the term “Slavery” is evocative rather than analytical, calling to mind a loose bundle of diagnostic features. These features are mainly derived from the most recent direct Western experience with slavery, that of the southern United States, the Caribbean, and Latin America. The present Western image of slavery has been haphazardly constructed out of the representations of that experience in nineteenth-century abolitionist literature, and later novels, textbooks, and films…From a global cross-cultural and historical perspective, however, New World slavery was a unique conjunction of features…In brief, most varieties of slavery did not exhibit the three elements that were dominant in the New World: slaves as property and commodities; their use exclusively as labor; and their lack of freedom…” [NS:ECA:4:1190f]

See http://christianthinktank.com/qnoslave.html if you want to know more.
And also http://christianthinktank.com/qnoslavent.html

As far as the Bible, from what I understand, only theives and enemies could be made slaves, and the slaves must be treated well.

Thus theives and enemies of the Jews could be made slaves,(cf. Ex 22:2; 2 Chr 28:8-15) but a Jew who arbitrarily took a slave would be punished by death.(Ex 21: 16)

Nevertheless, we in our slavery to sin cannot imagine there being so harsh a punishment as the loss of freedom and forced labor over the course of years. This is why life in many of our prisons in the western world has become so comfortable -indeed luxurious- in comparison with the life our poor and middle classes live. A criminal can obtain university degrees, watch television, get good meals, have water and plumbing looked after, and enjoy other comforts without having to pay a thing. Not long ago, it was the norm that a criminal was truly and justly deprived of his freedom, of his family, of comforts, and forced into unpaid labor for years. That is to say, a vile criminal was made to be a slave to society. Our justice system, then, as far as it remains, is seen to support and insist upon this slavery, and quite rightly so from the point of view of real justice. For this reason, Scripture is seen to operate within justice, in making real criminals slaves.

The Law of the Jews, as the laws of our prisons, afforded the slave certain rights and corresponding protections. The master of a slave would, according to the Law, be punished for killing him (the manner and degree of which is unspecified in written tradition).(Ex 21:20) If a master caused a woman slave to miscarry, there would be a fine determined by the woman’s husband, and “If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”(Ex 21: 22-23) Slaves would rest on the sabbath day (Ex 20: 8-11) and be restored to freedom after six years of servitude (except for non-Jews, which shall be discussed later). In these things, then, the Jewish Law on slavery is quite comparable to the slavery with which criminals in our society have been and still are frequently punished.

As the quote points out, don’t we make slaves of modern day criminals? Yes, we have cozy prisons now, but it wasn’t so long ago that prisoners were forced to make licence plates or crack rocks. That really isn’t much different. Holding a criminal against their will and making them work is basically the ‘slavery’ of the OT.
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May 12, 2014 12:40pm
stephieboy

Racism the Arab’s dirty little secret,

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/opinion/10iht-edeltahawy.1.18556273.html?_r=0

Disturbing indeed.!
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May 12, 2014 12:45pm
Kea

“stephie, the thing is, what we call slavery is not the same as what was practiced in the ancient world.”

Yeah along with the rape, murder and torture in the bible. FFS listen to you people !
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May 12, 2014 12:45pm
cha

Islam brought slavery to the West.

And 0800 – labour supplied the workers who built the Appian Way, Coliseum, Pont du Gard and Notre Dame.
//
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May 12, 2014 12:48pm
Kea

stephieboy (1,370 comments) says:

May 12th, 2014 at 12:45 pm

Racism the ~~Arab’s~~ Jews dirty little secret,

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-guilty-of-bleak-and-severe-human-rights-abuses-report-asserts/

Disturbing indeed.!
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May 12, 2014 12:49pm
publicwatchdog

Seen this Kiwibloggers?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11253498

Key promises public apology if Peters is right

10:24 AM Monday May 12, 2014

Prime Minister John Key will make a public apology if new information about Justice Minister Judith Collins emerges and forces her out of the job this week.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Is PM John Key now practicing swallowing dead rats the size of elephants?

We shall see ……….

Kind regards

Penny Bright
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May 12, 2014 1:00pm
griffith

kea squawking crap
‘
how unusual.

😆
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May 12, 2014 1:04pm
UglyTruth

A British Islamist leader has outlined how an “Islamic State” should humiliate Christians to encourage them to convert to Islam. Abu Waleed, who follows the hard line Salafi branch of Sunni Islam, quotes from the hadith (Islamic writings outside the Koran) to demonstrate how Christians and Jews should be treated if they do not convert to Islam.

Salafism is not typical of Muslim belief and is favoured by corrupt states like Saudi Arabia.
The main problem with Salafism is the overemphasis on the Hadith, since the Quran itself does not give Mohammad any special status as a prophet.
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May 12, 2014 1:07pm
cha

Peter Hammond, in his book, Slavery, Terrorism and Islam

Oh look, Fletch cites a gun running sniper and defender of apartheid who got his jollies driving around shooting kids with a paint gun.

http://allafrica.com/stories/199909230152.html

http://mg.co.za/article/2005-12-01-evangelist-charged-after-counterhalloween-incident
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May 12, 2014 1:08pm
ShawnLH

Al Qaeda tries, fails to kidnap 2 U.S. Embassy staff in Yemen.

“Two al Qaeda gunmen tried to kidnap two U.S. Embassy employees in Yemen last month but were shot and killed by one of the Americans, a Yemeni government official told CNN on Saturday.
The attempted kidnapping was carried out by two armed men with al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) on April 24, and the fatal shooting occurred near a Yemeni barbershop “where many foreigners and diplomats go to get their hair cut,” the Yemeni official said.”

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/10/world/meast/yemen-qaeda-kidnapping-attempt-us-embassy/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
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May 12, 2014 1:10pm
ShawnLH

“kea squawking crap”

Nothing new. At least he’s not making excuses for child slavery and rape.

Oh, wait a minute……….
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May 12, 2014 1:12pm
Kea

shorn, how terrible.

Mossad Kidnaps Gaza Engineer

Disappeared on a Ukraine train: Mossad snatches Gaza’s power plant boss

http://www.globalresearch.ca/mossad-kidnaps-gaza-engineer/23877
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May 12, 2014 1:13pm
Kea

At least he’s not making excuses for child slavery and rape.

You mean like this ?

Ultra-Orthodox Shun Their Own for Reporting Child Sexual Abuse

The first shock came when Mordechai Jungreis learned that his mentally disabled teenage son was being molested in a Jewish ritual bathhouse in Brooklyn. The second came after Mr. Jungreis complained, and the man accused of the abuse was arrested.

Keeping to Themselves

The New York City area is home to an estimated 250,000 ultra-Orthodox Jews — the largest such community outside of Israel, and one that is growing rapidly because of its high birthrate. The community is concentrated in Brooklyn, where many of the ultra-Orthodox are Hasidim, followers of a fervent spiritual movement that began in 18th-century Europe and applies Jewish law to every aspect of life.

Their communities, headed by dynastic leaders called rebbes, strive to preserve their centuries-old customs by resisting the contaminating influences of the outside world. While some ultra-Orthodox rabbis now argue that a child molester should be reported to the police, others strictly adhere to an ancient prohibition against mesirah, the turning in of a Jew to non-Jewish authorities, and consider publicly airing allegations against fellow Jews to be chillul Hashem, a desecration of God’s name.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/10/nyregion/ultra-orthodox-jews-shun-their-own-for-reporting-child-sexual-abuse.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
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May 12, 2014 1:17pm
ShawnLH

Kea and Ugly desperately trying to excuse militant Islamists and trying to outdo each other in who can Sieg Heil the loudest. 🙂

“NO, NO, DON’T LOOK AT THE ISLAMIC TERRORISTS, IT’S THE EVIL JEEEEEWWS!!!”
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May 12, 2014 1:17pm
UglyTruth

http://www.punchng.com/news/boko-haram-was-sponsored-to-smear-islam-jingir/

May 12, 2014 by Jude Owuamanam and Friday Olokor

The National Chairman of the Izalla sect, otherwise known as Jama’atul Izalatul Sunnah, Sheik Sani Yahaya Jingir, has dissociated the sect from the activities of the dreaded Islamic sect, Boko Haram, saying that the sect was being sponsored to smear the Islamic religion.

http://news.naij.com/62230.html
19 March, 2014

An incriminating phone call made on Tuesday has revealed that Turkish Airlines allegedly shipped weapons to unknown groups in Nigeria.

In a tape posted on YouTube, Mehmet Karatas, an assistant executive of the airline, allegedly tells Mustafa Varank, an advisor to Erdogan, that he feels guilty over national flag carrier’s arms shipment to Nigeria.

“I do not know whether these (weapons) will kill Muslims or Christians. I feel sinful,” Karatas is allegedly heard saying.

However, the Turkey’s national carrier had denied the allegations.

“Turkish Airlines, in accordance with company policy, does not ship arms to countries where there is a power vacuum or conflict,” the airline said in a statement sent to the media.

“There have been no arms shipments from Turkey to (Nigeria),” it added.
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May 12, 2014 1:17pm
RightNow

Haha, the real “Wolf of Wall Street” is currently “in Australia to lecture real estate agents on the importance of business ethics.”

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/world/10035507/Wall-of-Wolf-St-Jordan-Belfort-storms-from-interview

Perhaps next he should give the lecture to MSM “journalists”
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May 12, 2014 1:18pm
Judith

@ Kea (11,431 comments) says:
May 12th, 2014 at 12:13 pm

My grandfather, the wisest man I’ve ever known used to tell me this :-

If you believe in every comment you make, and stand by it, then own it – and own the criticism of it. Reply by proffering your opinion but to reply by attacking the messenger instead demonstrates a weakness of conviction.
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May 12, 2014 1:20pm
cha

Gone.

Prime Minister John Key will make a public apology if new information about Justice Minister Judith Collins emerges and forces her out of the job this week.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11253498
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May 12, 2014 1:25pm
Kea

Judith, WTF you bloody hypocrite !!! I post facts and get attacked daily. Get your head together woman. Your comment is nothing more than a personal attack in its self. If I have made factual errors then point them out to me and I WILL retract them.

-My grandfather, the wisest man I’ve ever known used to tell me this :-

You know what happens when cowards group together ? You get more cowardice.
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May 12, 2014 1:25pm
Kea

ShawnLH, you accused me of excusing Islamic terrorists. Show me where I did that so I can retract my statement.
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May 12, 2014 1:27pm
Judith

@ Kea (11,433 comments) says:
May 12th, 2014 at 1:25 pm

I think you took that the wrong way, it was more a comment about the criticism you get thrown at you. Never mind.
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May 12, 2014 1:27pm
Yoza

ShawnLH (2,401 comments) says:
May 12th, 2014 at 1:10 pm

Al Qaeda tries, fails to kidnap 2 U.S. Embassy staff in Yemen.

Apparently the CIA agent and the Special Forces operative had just popped out for a haircut, by themselves. Despite, as Eric Schmitt observes,

“In high-risk countries like Yemen and Pakistan, American diplomatic personnel are often tightly restricted in where and when they can travel outside the embassy walls, and are typically accompanied by armed security personnel.”
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May 12, 2014 1:28pm
RightNow

Cha: “Gone”
Nah, Winston will only go if he’s dragged out feet first.
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May 12, 2014 1:28pm
Ryan Sproull

If I have made factual errors then point them out to me and I WILL retract them.

Couched quietly amidst a tirade of unnecessary and unwarranted insults.
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May 12, 2014 1:28pm
wikiriwhis business

Super for rich has $570m price tag

Lets villify the wealthy for once they deserve it

Tax Bill tax evasion also.
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May 12, 2014 1:29pm
Kea

Judith I have just looked back up the tread to see why you would address that comment to me. I am forced to conclude you are lower than slug shit.

Ryan, same for you. Or is your browser not showing shorns and stupidboys comments ?
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May 12, 2014 1:31pm
Judith

@ cha (3,583 comments) says:
May 12th, 2014 at 1:25 pm

A bit like the show down at the OK Corral – between what appears to be the two strongest personalities in this years ‘battle’.

I’ve got no problem seeing the back end of Collins but I do want the fight to be a fair one. I don’t believe she is good for Key, or New Zealand.

If Winston has the proof, lets see it – cards on the table time – (or will they wait for budget day – and attempt to overshadow it?)
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May 12, 2014 1:32pm
griffith

Kea I have seen you quote crap and double down on the dishonesty when called on it soooo often I just take it as normal for you.

Still hanging in the ihc van dribbling on the windows wingnut?
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May 12, 2014 1:33pm
Kea

grief, sorry if I misled you and left you thinking I wrote the bible, human history and write for the Times of Israel along with working for an Israeli human rights group. My bad.

I am sorry [again] but I missed your comment on the topic. Can you kindly direct me to it ?
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May 12, 2014 1:37pm
Judith

@ Kea (11,435 comments) says:
May 12th, 2014 at 1:31 pm

Whatever Kea – you don’t come across as someone that even tries see any alternative messages, you just like to dive in, boots and all, only seeing the negative – and then you fire away without engaging your brain… slug shit aye? I don’t dwell low enough to notice what that is like, so I’ll take your word for it.
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May 12, 2014 1:38pm
wikiriwhis business

“What do you think Drone strikes do Tom Hunter, drop the people milk and cookies?”

Exactly. The US never has money for milk and cookies but armaments are literally thrown at countries.

On top of that the US industrial military complex wants more!
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May 12, 2014 1:38pm
RightNow

Two comments from you today griff, both demonstrating your usual erudite wit.
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May 12, 2014 1:40pm
griffith

Talking shit is your mainstay wingnut

The sooner you get a terminal ban the better for KB.

You fail to add anything but gross stupidity.
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May 12, 2014 1:40pm
Ryan Sproull

Ryan, same for you. Or is your browser not showing shorns and stupidboys comments ?

I’m referring to your hours of accusing me the other day of believing in God, not answering your questions, and asserting that “Jews are filthy liars”. And when called on to back up your assertions, your apology was along the lines of “you’re all fuckwits and I get fuckwits mixed up sometimes“.
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May 12, 2014 1:41pm
Kea

Judith, NO DON’T take my “word for it”. ctrl F, Kea. Then ShawnLH…. Then explain why you directed that comment to me ?

Until then:

I apologise for my comments re slugs. To the Slugs I may have offended.
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May 12, 2014 1:43pm
Kea

Ryan, OH so it was residual butt-hurt you were referring to. I thought we cleared that up. Time to move on.

[and asserting that “Jews are filthy liars”.]

Show where I said that ? I asked if that was YOUR position after YOU called into question something I posted written and taught by JEWS. So you simply lied, okay I see how this works. My turn.

The other day you said child sex is an accepted part of ultra orthodox culture and can not be condemned in the same way as Muslims doing it, as it does not harm the kids. My question is; Do you think our laws unfairly target orthodox Jews as a result ?
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May 12, 2014 1:50pm
RightNow

griff, you must take your meds. You might think you’re doing fine without them but I can see at 1:40 that you’ve started talking to yourself again.
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May 12, 2014 1:54pm
Tom Jackson

The difference between Pete George and everyone else here is that he has political ambitions, and we have ambitions to be ornery arseholes.
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May 12, 2014 1:54pm
Ryan Sproull

Show where I said that ? I asked if that was YOUR position after YOU called into question something I posted written and taught by JEWS.

You asked me my position, and I repeatedly (well, twice) agreed with you that, in the story, Jewish people were responsible for Jesus’ death. You continued to claim that I was saying otherwise. I never disagreed on this point with the Jewish writings you were citing, and yet you accused me of saying that they were lying or incorrect.

That is what I was challenging you to back up. A fact that would have been obvious if you’d just taken a breath and read what I’d actually said.
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May 12, 2014 1:58pm
Pete George

What are my ambitions Tom?

And how do you know what the ambitions are of “everyone else here”?
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May 12, 2014 1:59pm
ShawnLH

“ShawnLH, you accused me of excusing Islamic terrorists. Show me where I did that so I can retract my statement.”

Boko Haram are an Islamist terrorist group. You made excuses for the kidnapping of over a hundred children who will likely be sold into slavery, claiming that it’s just the way things are and we should not be concerned. Which, to put it bluntly, is seriously sick.

Also, whenever the subject Islamist terrorism comes up you dredge something about the Jews.

In fact, the issue of religion would not even have come up today if you had not brought it up and decided to make a debate about the kidnapping another excuse for your tiresome rants about Jews.

And before you trot on your “I’m just opposed to oppressing any group” lie, Islamists and mainstream Islam are not the same thing

I have no issue with Islam in general or peaceful Muslims.

“The other day you said child sex is an accepted part of ultra orthodox culture and can not be condemned in the same way as Muslims doing it, as it does not harm the kids.”

I seriously doubt Ryan said anything like that.

And I’m still waiting for a shred of evidence for your claim that child abuse is endemic amongst Jews as a whole.

Liar.
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May 12, 2014 1:59pm
Tom Jackson

What are my ambitions Tom?

To secure the hand of Peter Dunne in a gay marriage? 🙂
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May 12, 2014 2:04pm
Tom Jackson

To post centrist drivel that is the political equivalent of dried tofu?

To annoy the owners of every single blog in the NZ blogosphere?

#petegeorgeambitions
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May 12, 2014 2:06pm
Samuel Smith

Looks like Collins could be gone by tea time.
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May 12, 2014 2:06pm
UglyTruth

“ShawnLH, you accused me of excusing Islamic terrorists. Show me where I did that so I can retract my statement.”

Boko Haram are an Islamist terrorist group. You made excuses for the kidnapping of over a hundred children who will likely be sold into slavery, claiming that it’s just the way things are and we should not be concerned. Which, to put it bluntly, is seriously sick.

As usual, ShawnLH is unable to quote what Kea actaully said, but continues with more slander. Kea did not say that “we should not be concerned”.
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May 12, 2014 2:07pm
UglyTruth

Looks like Collins could be gone by tea time.

Don’t leave us hanging, Samuel, what’s the scoop?
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May 12, 2014 2:09pm
Kea

Ryan Sproull , I explained that I had mistakenly attributed views to you that had not been expressed. I simply became confused by the mass attack of fundamentally religious. I have plently of real targets without having a go at the innocent.

ShawnLH, I simply pointed out that slavery has been part of Muslim African relations for centuries. I did not, and do not, excuse it on that or any other grounds. I am still waiting for your link to where I indicated otherwise ????

“I seriously doubt Ryan said anything like that.”

Or course Ryan did not say that ! Nor did I say the things he accused me of.
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May 12, 2014 2:10pm
Pete George

It’s just as well you can say that from a position of being so popular with “everyone else” Tom.

But you’re wrong. It only seems to be left leaning blogs that get particularly tetchy about their messages being questioned, and proven wrong. That’s if you can get through their censorship.

It’s not a great advertisement for their politics.
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May 12, 2014 2:10pm
Tom Jackson

Don’t leave us hanging, Samuel, what’s the scoop?

Probably misdirection. Can’t find anything on Twitter.
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May 12, 2014 2:11pm
Samuel Smith

Winston Peters holding a media conference at 4pm.
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May 12, 2014 2:13pm
Tom Jackson

It’s just as well you can say that from a position of being so popular with “everyone else” Tom.

Hardly. I pride myself on getting more downticks than anyone else. My only fear is that Len Brown starts posting here.

Anyway, I’m calling shenanigans on that. You annoy people, so they ban you. It’s go nothing to do with the content of your posts, but because you piss them off. Trolls everywhere marvel at your ability to get banned. 😉
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May 12, 2014 2:14pm
Tom Jackson

Winston Peters holding a media conference at 4pm.

Cheers for the info.

Might be about KiwiRail, though.
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May 12, 2014 2:14pm
ShawnLH

“Looks like Collins could be gone by tea time.”

I have always liked Judith Collins, but both her and Williamson have become liabilities that National cannot afford.
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May 12, 2014 2:15pm
Ryan Sproull

Ryan Sproull , I explained that I had mistakenly attributed views to you that had not been expressed.

Yes, you did, amidst further unwarranted insults, which is all I was saying at 1.28 today.

Or course Ryan did not say that ! Nor did I say the things he accused me of.

You said it right here.
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May 12, 2014 2:15pm
Pete George

Hilarious:

@GCSBIntercepts

“It looks like Winston is still after Judith and we’re running out of things to lop off the ferries to distract him.”
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May 12, 2014 2:19pm
Tom Jackson

I have always liked Judith Collins, but both her and Williamson have become liabilities that National cannot afford.

With Collins, they are fucked either way.
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May 12, 2014 2:19pm
Samuel Smith

Why is Peters’ interested in KiwiRail?

Doesn’t the Crown already own it after Cullen purchased it back?
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May 12, 2014 2:19pm
ShawnLH

“Anyway, I’m calling shenanigans on that. You annoy people, so they ban you. It’s go nothing to do with the content of your posts, but because you piss them off.”

I don’t always agree with Pete but he has never said anything here that would get him banned on any reasonably run and fair blog.

If he is banned at the Stranded that is because it is run by a bunch of Stalinists who despise free speech and ban anyone who critiques the Left.

Give Pete a break. I find the whole centrist position too much like weak tea myself, but Pete is scrupulously fair in his critiques of both sides of the political spectrum.
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May 12, 2014 2:20pm
Kea

Ryan, Oh I see. You think I wrote the Toledot Jeshu. Was that before or after I wrote the bible ? LOL 🙂

Dear oh Dear Ryan, try and keep it together mate !

And another point. How about we start each day afresh and not conflate all previous slights into an ongoing unresolvable wrong in order to sustain the animosity ? (Or in other words; Get over yourself.)
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May 12, 2014 2:21pm
Judith

Samuel Smith (274 comments) says:
May 12th, 2014 at 2:13 pm
Winston Peters holding a media conference at 4pm.

So we wait with baited breath for news from the the NZ1 camp…

Rabbit: I’ve got a splendid idea! Now listen: we’ll take Tigger (PM) for a long explore, see, somewhere he’s never been before. And we’ll lose him there!
Winnie the Pooh: Lose him?
Rabbit: Oh, we’ll find him again next morning, and mark my words, he’ll be a humble Tigger, a small and sad Tigger, and a “oh, pooh, am I glad to see you” Tigger. And it’ll take the bounces out of him, that’s what! Now, all in favor, say ‘aye’.
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May 12, 2014 2:22pm
Tom Jackson

Why is Peters’ interested in KiwiRail?

Says the Govt is covering up accidents.

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/interislander-problems-covered-up-winston-peters-5969424
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May 12, 2014 2:23pm
ShawnLH

Kea (11,440 comments) says: “Well they said they did, but SPC and Ryan reckon Jews are filthy liars”
May 9th, 2014 at 9:13 pm

Yup, he said that, and it’s a statement not a question.

“And another point. How about we start each day afresh”

I’m sure you would find that very convenient. Don’t like being held to account do you.
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May 12, 2014 2:24pm
Pete George

Trolls everywhere marvel at your ability to get banned…

…by left wingers with political agendas frustrated as hell that all their abuse isn’t working in the polls.
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May 12, 2014 2:24pm
Tom Jackson

I don’t always agree with Pete but he has never said anything here that would get him banned on any reasonably run and fair blog.

It’s cumulative annoyance.

If he is banned at the Stranded that is because it is run by a bunch of Stalinists who despise free speech and ban anyone who critiques the Left.

No. I think most of it is that Lynn Prentice is just a bit of a dick.
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May 12, 2014 2:25pm
Samuel Smith

@Tom Jackson

Thanks, I thought NZ ferries crashing was old news. It seems to constantly happen.
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May 12, 2014 2:25pm
RightNow

I think your 2:19 was one of your more insightful comments Samuel Smith:

Why is Peters’ interested in KiwiRail?

Doesn’t the Crown already own it after Cullen purchased it back?

Of course I took it to mean there’s no point Winnie being interested in something he can’t promise to buy back.
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May 12, 2014 2:26pm
Tom Jackson

…by left wingers with political agendas frustrated as hell that all their abuse isn’t working in the polls.

Seems to be working this week.

To be honest, I think it’s because you are clueless.
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May 12, 2014 2:26pm
Andrei

Obama’s fascist goons shoot people to prevent them exercising their democratic right

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW-vO8FC8YA
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May 12, 2014 2:27pm
Tom Jackson

How you find out about the press conference SS?
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May 12, 2014 2:28pm
twofish

stuff.co: Ferry incidents ‘covered up’ – Peters

Bugger – it’s InterIslander ferry, not Peters coming clean on Denis O’Rourke and Stephen James.
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May 12, 2014 2:28pm
ShawnLH

” You think I wrote the Toledot Jeshu.”

The entire Jewish population did not write it, but that does not stop you from using “the Jews” like most Jew haters tend to.
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May 12, 2014 2:29pm
Ryan Sproull

Ryan, Oh I see. You think I wrote the Toledot Jeshu. Was that before or after I wrote the bible ? LOL 🙂

Read a bit more carefully, Kea. I never said that the Toledot Jeshu is incorrect, or that you were incorrect in citing it.

I said that you were incorrect to say that I disagreed with it (and you) on that point about the story.

That was when your tirade of insults began.
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May 12, 2014 2:31pm
ShawnLH

“Obama’s fascist goons”

Their Ukrainians Andrei, not Americans. Get a grip.

And I seem to remember your preferred Ukrainian leader shooting protesters.
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May 12, 2014 2:32pm
Kea

Ryan, I can not dumb this down anymore for your benefit. You got unfairly caught in the cross fire of my battle with the zealots. Lay down with dogs…
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May 12, 2014 2:34pm
Kea

“The entire Jewish population did not write it…”

shorn, But the ENTIRE Muslim population wrote the Hadiths, condone suicide bombs, subjugation of women, etc ?

As we hear every-single-day on KB with not a word of protest or moderation from you.
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May 12, 2014 2:37pm
ShawnLH

“You got unfairly caught in the cross fire of my battle with the zealots”

You are a zealot. And bullshit, you use a scatter gun approach all the time.
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May 12, 2014 2:37pm
Pete George

Labour’s pre-Budget announcement:

– If elected, unemployment would drop to 4 percent after 3 years.
– Says to meet this target they need to create 20k new jobs.
– Cunliffe says Labour govt will stay in surplus – unless there is I’national downturn or domestic disaster.
– Cunliffe says on projections National will take unemployment to 5 per cent.
– David Parker says he’s absolutely confident policies are “job rich”
– Cunliffe says the focus won’t be on creating govt jobs, but on innovation.
– Denies Labour riding on the improving economy under National and being opportunistic by announcing unemployment target.
– Cunliffe confirms there is going to be increase in top tax rate – but not saying (yet) what it will be.
– Also not revealing surplus targets today- but will resume contributions to Cullen fund when books back in black.

Details: https://www.labour.org.nz/jobs-and-surplus-targets
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May 12, 2014 2:39pm
ShawnLH

“shorn, But the ENTIRE Muslim population wrote the Hadiths, condone suicide bombs, subjugation of women, etc ?”

I have never said anything like that.

“As we hear every-single-day on KB with not a word of protest or moderation from you.”

That’s because you see only what you want to see. I have in fact critiqued that position. Yesterday I made a post linking to an article saying that not all Muslims groups are violent or do not want peace. The day before that I posted a link about pro-Israeli Muslims. And about a week ago I argued against the claim that militant Islam is a threat in NZ because of the local Muslim population.

But you tend to put everyone into your tiny little boxes and proceed from there.

As I said, you lack even the most basic debating skills, and do not bother to take the time to find out what other people actually believe before slagging them off.

You had me in your “Rapture believing, anti-Asian, pro-White” box yesterday.

Your a lazy debater, to put it mildly.
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May 12, 2014 2:44pm
Kea

“But you tend to put everyone into your tiny little boxes and proceed from there.”

So you really think I am a Nazi shorn ? 🙂

The strongest reactions I get on KB come not from my words but the words of the bible and Jews, cut n’ pasted with supporting links. Very revealing isn’t it ?
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May 12, 2014 2:45pm
ShawnLH

I think Kea that anyone who constantly uses phrases like “the Jews” is suspect. You don’t make distinctions, but try to tar all Jews with the issues of a minority.

So yes, when I hear rhetoric like that my Nazi radar tends to go off.

Perhaps if you improved your rhetoric and chose your words more carefully then I would not be suspicious about your motivation.
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May 12, 2014 2:48pm
Andrei

And I seem to remember your preferred Ukrainian leader shooting protesters.

He wasn’t my “prefered” leader Shawn, he was elected and was up for re election in 11 months and could have been replaced via the ballot box in the normal and constitutional manner.

And if this procedure had been followed then none of this grief would have followed
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May 12, 2014 2:49pm
Ryan Sproull

Ryan, I can not dumb this down anymore for your benefit. You got unfairly caught in the cross fire of my battle with the zealots.

So we’re back to, “I did say what you’re claiming I said, and I was mistaken.” Good to hear.

Lay down with dogs…

You keep saying that, like it’s out of the question that you might be able to distinguish between different people addressing you on different points.

It seems more like the best way to avoid being the subject of a lengthy tirade of insults followed by a perfunctory and half-arsed admission of fault is to never engage with you at all, but what fun would that be?
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May 12, 2014 2:49pm
Ryan Sproull

I think Kea that anyone who constantly uses phrases like “the Jews” is suspect. You don’t make distinctions, but try to tar all Jews with the issues of a minority.

It’s not a defence, but Kea’s right that many people do the same thing with Muslims.
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May 12, 2014 2:52pm
ShawnLH

“The strongest reactions I get on KB come not from my words”

Yes, they are. It’s how you use the links that you post that gets the reaction, and the rhetoric you post along with the links, not the links themselves.

Your not big on personal responsibility are you?
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May 12, 2014 2:54pm
ShawnLH

“It’s not a defence, but Kea’s right that many people do the same thing with Muslims.”

Yes, I know. But Kea seems to think I’m in that camp, which I’m not. Yesterday he had me pegged as anti-Asian, when I have almost never posted on the subject of Asian immigration, and the one time I have it was supportive.

Like I said, it’s a scatter gun approach which is bound to get him in trouble more often than not.
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May 12, 2014 2:57pm
Kea

Ryan, I am not a defender of wrongs by Muslims. I have in fact stated my position that Jews are collectively my most prefered group (of the desert cults) due to their strong intellectual culture. Though I am against religion generally.

What you see me doing is not attacking Jews, but attacking the suspension of logic based on religious bias and the vilification of a particular religious group. A point many Jews would support me on ! The thing that annoys me most though is the double standards and hypocricy.

My position is simply that I am opposed to ALL wrongs by All groups. I do not invoke special pleading for a prefered group while minimising their wrongs. That is ShawnLH’s and stupidboys trick.
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May 12, 2014 3:01pm
UglyTruth

I think Kea that anyone who constantly uses phrases like “the Jews” is suspect.

You mean like the translators of the books of Kings, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Jeremiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Acts?

Anglicans everywhere must be rolling their eyes in disbelief…
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May 12, 2014 3:01pm
Kea

UglyTruth, you are on dangerous ground accurately reporting on the clear words of the bible 😉
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May 12, 2014 3:05pm
Kea

Special pleading is a formal logical fallacy where a participant demands special considerations for a particular premise of theirs. Usually this is because in order for their argument to work, they need to provide some way to get out of a logical inconsistency — in a lot of cases, this will be the fact that their argument contradicts past arguments or actions. Therefore, they introduce a “special case” or an exception to their rules.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special_pleading
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May 12, 2014 3:07pm
Ryan Sproull

Yes, I know. But Kea seems to think I’m in that camp, which I’m not. Yesterday he had me pegged as anti-Asian, when I have almost never posted on the subject of Asian immigration, and the one time I have it was supportive.

Like I said, it’s a scatter gun approach which is bound to get him in trouble more often than not.

I think if the last 12 months of Kiwiblog have taught us anything, it’s that there’s a lot of variety in some people’s views. That’s a relatively new thing on Kiwiblog, I think. For a long time, you could generalise fairly accurately about “left” and “right” here.

But now, some very mixed views.

Like, Stephieboy is a big fan of Obama, so you think “liberal left”, but he’s a cheerleader for drone strikes and Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians, which makes you think “conservative right”.

Kea’s a proponent of Palestinian rights, so you think “liberal left”, but he’s fiscally conservative (I think?).

You’re about as stereotypically hard-right conservative as it gets on many things, but then you’ll be battling away about the effects of colonialism on indigenous peoples, which bucks the stereotype.

Reid’s… Well, Reid’s Reid.
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May 12, 2014 3:08pm
ShawnLH

“I do not invoke special pleading for a prefered group while minimising their wrongs. That is ShawnLH’s and stupidboys trick.”

Bullshit. Again.

I’m happy to discuss wrongs done by specific Jewish individuals, or reasonable critiques of Israel. The reason I don’t agree with you is because you use those issues in a dishonest way and you do try to tar all Jews, as in your claim that child abuse is endemic in the entire Jewish population. And you repeatedly misrepresent Jewish religious beliefs, such as in your claim that they consider themselves a “master race.”

Despite your denial, you clearly have issues with Jews as a whole.

Fighting one prejudice by engaging in another is like screwing for virginity.
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May 12, 2014 3:11pm
igm

“Tojo” Cunliffe says Labour would have 4% unemployment. That would be correct, he would have public servants slithering down Lambton Quay just like Clark. It was an exercise during their 9 years, passing these sloths as they jaywalked down Featherston Street and Lambton Quay, all times of the day, or else got under one’s feet puffing on cigarettes in doorways. Then there were the ones that had greased into a higher level of employment and had car parks all around the place. Also Cunliffe, do you not realise, under Labour, there are a lot more unemployable, sickness, and ACC recipients, due to your hopeless and wasteful administration.
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May 12, 2014 3:13pm
Ryan Sproull

Ryan, I am not a defender of wrongs by Muslims.

Yes, I know. I just meant that “others do it” isn’t a defence against accusations of generalising.

I have in fact stated my position that Jews are collectively my most prefered group (of the desert cults) due to their strong intellectual culture. Though I am against religion generally.

What you see me doing is not attacking Jews, but attacking the suspension of logic based on religious bias and the vilification of a particular religious group. A point many Jews would support me on ! The thing that annoys me most though is the double standards and hypocricy.

My position is simply that I am opposed to ALL wrongs by All groups. I do not invoke special pleading for a prefered group while minimising their wrongs.

Yes, I recognise that, Kea. You often make very good points about double standards, different measures applied to different groups and peoples. And it’s very possible that it’s the contrast of your views with the Kiwiblog norm (of varying degrees of anti-Muslim sentiments) that makes you stick out like a sore thumb.
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May 12, 2014 3:14pm
ShawnLH

Anyway, I’m done with this topic.

Good point about the diversity on KB Ryan. It does make things interesting!
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May 12, 2014 3:16pm
Kea

“That’s a relatively new thing on Kiwiblog, I think. For a long time, you could generalise fairly accurately about “left” and “right” here.

But now, some very mixed views.”

Ryan, good observation. I have noticed that too. One point, I have never mentioned Palestinian rights. Its redundant when you defend everyones rights.

“Fighting one prejudice by engaging in another is like screwing for virginity.”

I would not knock it until I tired it 😉
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May 12, 2014 3:17pm
cha

Seems Boko Harum have bitten off a little more than they’ll be able to handle.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.590045

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayeret_Matkal
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May 12, 2014 3:17pm
Ryan Sproull

Good point about the diversity on KB Ryan. It does make things interesting!

It really does. It’s nice when positions on issues aren’t predictable, and that you can be agreeing with someone on one issue and disagreeing on another. I think it encourages and appreciation for other perspectives when you’re arguing with someone who was arguing alongside you the day before.
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May 12, 2014 3:18pm
wikiriwhis business

Bill Gates Admits Vaccines Are Used for Human Depopulation .

At the heart of Gates’ address lies the central Global Warming dogma, which dictates that Co2 emitted by human beings are the primary culprit for the unwanted heating of the globe. Since this artificial alleged human-induced heating effect allegedly stands to devastate the planet if left unabated, Global Warming dogma proponents therefore argue that human Co2 emissions must be drastically reduced. As Gates casually addresses the issue, he goes on to state that one way to accomplish this goal is to reduce the global human population.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WQtRI7A064
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May 12, 2014 3:19pm

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