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April 27, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 27 April 2014

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big bruv

Has Len Brown resigned yet?

Has Penny Bright paid her rates yet?
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April 27, 2014 8:03am
Colville

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9981554/RBNZ-to-get-one-big-new-tool-under-Labour

Labour want to give a big tool to the Reserve bank ?

Well Cun*liffe is the biggest tool they have so…
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April 27, 2014 8:04am
peterwn

big bruv – I bet that Penny Bright has paid the rates but is not going to admit it. If she has not, the cost to her will explode in pretty short order and some lawyer will be able to buy a new Bimmer by the time legal costs mount up.
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April 27, 2014 8:13am
holysheet

Please please please can we today not have any mention about global warming or religion. Frankly, it is tedious and boring reading the same comments day after day from the same idiots who argue amongst them selves.
For once think about others before you post your usual crap arguments.
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April 27, 2014 8:14am
Kea

Note it was holysheet who first mentioned “global warming or religion” today.
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April 27, 2014 8:15am
Kea

holysheet, how about we add politics to your list of forbidden subjects ? … If it is okay with you of course !
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April 27, 2014 8:18am
Komata

…And said in a caring way…
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April 27, 2014 8:23am
Nostalgia-NZ

Parker won in a fight in which he didn’t look to dominate with his left jab from the beginning. Couple of cuts, knocked around early in the 6th? but finished decisively with a the ref stopping the fight. For all the denial about his power and plaudits about his hand speed it’s clear he has both. It looks like Barry sent him in looking for an early knockout rather than building off his jab and hand speed, risky.
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April 27, 2014 8:26am
Reid

Fraser’s called for a debate in Aus over choosing between the US and China and Buchanan says we should consider the same.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/9981959/NZ-warned-as-US-and-China-raise-stakes

It’s a bit more important than what flag design we have.
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April 27, 2014 8:34am
kowtow

Frasers’ call……..

A military dictatorship which will collapse in the coming years causing chaos or a 200 year old constitutional democracy that saved our bacon from the Imperialist Japanese.

What choice?
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April 27, 2014 8:43am
MT_Tinman

I haven’t noticed any comments from Wellington supporters about how they want Hammett to go (now) recently.

I wonder why that is?
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April 27, 2014 8:46am
Yoza

holysheet (198 comments) says:
April 27th, 2014 at 8:14 am

Please please please can we today not have any mention about global warming or religion. Frankly, it is tedious and boring reading the same comments day after day from the same idiots who argue amongst them selves.
For once think about others before you post your usual crap arguments.

Two birds, one stone!

Eliason: Senator, we’re going to talk about your book for a minute, you state in your book which by the way is called The Greatest Hoax, you state in your book that one of your favorite Bible verses, Genesis 8:22, ‘while the earth remaineth seed time and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease,’ what is the significance of these verses to this issue?

Inhofe: Well actually the Genesis 8:22 that I use in there is that ‘as long as the earth remains there will be seed time and harvest, cold and heat, winter and summer, day and night,’ my point is, God’s still up there. The arrogance of people to think that we, human beings, would be able to change what He is doing in the climate is to me outrageous.

You just can’t make this shit up! Lunacy, … of biblical proportion.
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April 27, 2014 8:47am
allgoodal

Is there a sea change occurring inside the PI vote?
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April 27, 2014 8:49am
griffith

holly shit

please please please can we have no more post like that.

There hasn’t been a significant global warming posts for weeks.

The entire time I have been on here post in denial run around four to one to those who acknowledge the findings of science yet for some unknown reason the complaints are always against those who support the science of AGW.

Is this because of the cognitive dissonance generated when wingnut denial stupidity is exposed?

have an absolute crap day 😆
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April 27, 2014 8:52am
Viking2

Tent family ‘have themselves to blame’ – landlord

The landlord who evicted a Christchurch family now living in a tent says if they had not trashed his house they would not be in the position they are now.

Cosmo Jeffrey owns the Hills Rd property that Taurua Houia and his family lived in before they moved to Spencer Beach Holiday Park to pitch a tent.

Houia, his wife Sonia, and the three children living with them are priority A on the Housing New Zealand waiting list, and are desperate for somewhere to go before winter sets in.

Houia said the family had fallen behind in rent before but were not “bad people”. He said he had told his story to highlight issues for low-income families in Christchurch, not to draw sympathy from the public.

Jeffrey’s four-bedroom property was his first go at being a landlord. He charged the Houias $500 a week. Houia’s mother-in-law initially viewed the property, gave references and paid the bond. She told Jeffrey she would have other family members live with her. Three weeks into the tenancy, she moved out and Houia and his family remained at the property. They quickly fell weeks behind in rent, and soon owed Jeffrey $2000.

“I felt sorry for them, and they kept promising they’d pay,” Jeffrey said. “They said they were sure they could pay it. He was saying he had two jobs and then the next thing I know he was on ACC and she was on a benefit of some kind.”

Jeffrey asked the family to leave after they fell even further behind in the rent. He said the house was left covered in faeces and vomit. The walls were damaged and neighbours complained of parties and noise issues at the property.

Jeffrey approached the Tenancy Tribunal to retrieve rent arrears and cleaning and repair costs totalling $4795. He halted proceedings after finding out the family was now in a tent. “They might be living in a tent now, but they need not be,” Jeffrey said. “If they’d managed things differently, they could still have a nice home. I feel sorry for their kids.”
=================================

Yep, that’s some tenants for ya.
Do not deserve anything but a hedge to live under.
Got rid of some like that before Xmas. Plenty of taxpayers money wasted on them. Never ever going to change.
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April 27, 2014 8:58am
SGA

Yoza at 8:47 am
After a quick read of his bio, Inhofe would provide material for a week’s KB. Although even he’d probably turn out to be a knuckle-dragging prog in some quarters.
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April 27, 2014 9:00am
Viking2

It’s a wonderfully Kiwi thing that National Party honcho Sir Wira Gardiner financially supported Shane Jones’ bid to become Labour leader. It’s even more so that Sir Wira’s wife is Education Minister Hekia Parata.

Jones’ purpose was to knock her and every other minister out of office. That didn’t bother Sir Wira. He supported Jones anyway.

There is, though, one disturbing aspect to all this and that’s Sir Wira’s reason for supporting Jones’ campaign. It was because Jones is Maori. He says he donated to “encourage Maori leadership”.

That has to be a stupid and chilling reason. It’s not because Jones has the skill and qualities of leadership and would be good for the country. No. It’s because of something that Jones played no part in and can do nothing about: he was born Maori.

So how is it that a National Party man – the husband of a National Party cabinet minister and a knight of the realm – can so casually donate to Jones precisely and solely because of his race?

The chilling part is not that he donated but that his reason for doing so is so readily accepted without the outrage and condemnation it should provoke.

What if I had donated $1000 to Cunliffe’s campaign? That would generate news and attention. But imagine if I said I did so because Cunliffe is European and I want to encourage European leadership.

The reaction would be swift and decisive. I would be slammed and properly branded a racist. Cunliffe would be handing back my money and running a mile – and rightly so.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11244832
=========================
Couldn’t agree more. Its an Irish, Catholic, Maori thing you see.
Time for some white supremacy again. The alternative will be that Asians will beat the Maori out. That’s what frightens Peters.
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April 27, 2014 9:02am
Reid

10 years ago kowtow I would have said no question. These days its less clear to me. One thing I’m pretty sure about, is that the debate won’t be looking forward projecting into the future but rather will consist mostly of looking back at historical records that may or may not be predictive of future behaviour. We humans are funny like that.

Still the way things are going maybe we won’t need the debate because things are very unstable both economically and politically and a conflict may arise soon that will make the question redundant.

It was because Jones is Maori.

So presumably you object to AIPAC in the US and the Business Roundtable here as well V2? Or is that different?
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April 27, 2014 9:07am
igm

Viking: Maybe these tenants are related to the ferals in Maraenui!
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April 27, 2014 9:07am
itstricky

What a load of clap. There’s no reason to ‘need’ to encourage European leadership seeing as it is pretty much ubiquitous. Argument is nullified. In one step. Rodney obviously having a slow day thought he’d trot out the Pakeha Party Brash lines to get white hoods like Viking out and riled.
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April 27, 2014 9:09am
kowtow

Houia told his story to draw attention to the plight of low income familiies.

See this is a big part of the problem with what passes for “poverty” in Aotearoa.

Cunning, conniving ,work shy ,lying cheats living off the taxpayer and the goodwill of decent people.

Welfare is the problem not the solution.

If parents are prepared to allow their children to grow up surrounded bu shit they should be in goal as abusers.

Sue bradford would have good parents gaoled for bringing up ones children well, but this family she’d give even more money to and claim it was colonialism’s fault.

There’s something very rotten in the state of Aotearoa.
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April 27, 2014 9:13am
Kea

What choice?

Tell ya what you god-addled bigot. How about you choose to stop using Chinese products from this point forward ? You can lead by example.

No more internet for kowtow.

The biggest single threat to world peace at this time is the USA.
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April 27, 2014 9:16am
Kea

recognition of the natural rights or life and liberty

Ugly, no such thing as “rights”.

There is only what we make. To test this how about every body does nothing and simply waits for their “rights” to be given. Who will confer those “rights” ?

Hint: No one.
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April 27, 2014 9:20am
griffith

Double standard alert

let’s have a white kiwi only party

The only policy of this party will be to place kiwi white mans culture first

Special white kiwi only government-funded support.

Skin heads to get funded to encourage the rights and needs of only the white kiwi culture.

Schools to teach this separate from the mainstream with no oversite of the Government funding by anyone but white kiwis

special treatment of kiwi whites in the courts education sector and the government.

If you find this offensive you are of course

RACIST..
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April 27, 2014 9:22am
wat dabney

‘There’s no reason to ‘need’ to encourage European leadership seeing as it is pretty much ubiquitous. Argument is nullified.‘

By implying that there is a need to encourage leadership from certain races you miss the point entirely, which is that race should not enter into it at all.
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April 27, 2014 9:25am
stephieboy

This is a good way to begin the day 9/11 Truthers squabbling amongst themselves , Controlled Demolition of the WTC Towers versus mini nukes . I would like to included the Thunder Birds are Go , Particle beam / energy directed beams of Dr Judy Woods Infamy. Here arch 9/11 Truther Dimitri Khalezov takes issue with Gordon Duff of the largely one man band” Veterans Today” an important advocate of the absurd mini nukes theory explaining the destruction of the WTC.
Khalezov produces evidence that Duff is in fact is a disinfo agent working tirelessly to discredit the equally absurd controlled demolition theory. Could it be that they all are.? Anyhow Khalezov is correct about Duff who has himself proudly asserted that about 40% he disseminates on Veteran’s Today and elsewhere is essentially false . But that figure of 40% is greatly understated.
But here Ugly Truth and Reid and 9/11 Truth more of yours , ” panoply of the absurd.”

http://www.takeourworldback.com/wtcnukeddisinfo.htm

P S Don’t people think there are interesting parallels between Creation Theory and 9/11 Truth.?
Just asking.!
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April 27, 2014 9:28am
wat dabney

‘Who will confer those “rights” ?‘

It’s not a question of who confers rights, but who takes them away.

I have the right to the fruits of my own labours, and will receive that benefit until someone threatens violence or uses actual violence to steal them.
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April 27, 2014 9:28am
igm

Disgusting to see Fairfax, APN, Newstalkzb, TVNZ, and Radio NZ all vying to give Lecher Len top priority in news coverage, along with the scum supporting him. Come on Aucklanders, don’t let this reprobate off the hook.
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April 27, 2014 9:32am
calendar girl

Viking2@9:02am – I agree with Rodney Hide’s comments on Gardiner’s motives, but what’s your own reference to this being an “.. ..”Irish, Catholic, Maori thing” all about?

Your personal prejudices at play, I presume?
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April 27, 2014 9:33am
UglyTruth

Ugly, no such thing as “rights”.

Human rights are fictional, natural rights are real.

Right. As a noun, and taken in an abstract sense, means justice, ethical correctness, or consonance with the rules of law or the principles of morals. (Black’s 5th)

Don’t even start with your bullshit arguments, Kea, you can’t even live up to you own standard of applying reason to religion.
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April 27, 2014 9:36am
stephieboy

Five ways 9/11 Truthers are like Creationists ,

http://buffalobeast.com/5-ways-911-truthers-are-like-creationists/

and,

http://adamkemp.newsvine.com/_news/2008/07/10/1652771-debate-methods-of-creationists-and-911-truthers?lite

Hmmm…!
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April 27, 2014 9:36am
MT_Tinman

wat dabney (3,481 comments) says:
April 27th, 2014 at 9:28 am
‘Who will confer those “rights” ?‘

It’s not a question of who confers rights, but who takes them away.

I have the right to the fruits of my own labours, and will receive that benefit until someone threatens violence or uses actual violence to steal them.

First on the list is the tax man.
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April 27, 2014 9:39am
adze

Just watching Q+A. I don’t normally comment on the appearance of politicians but Jesus H. Christ, the Labour Party President is wearing a Jacket that eclipses anything Meteria Turei wears in sheer loudness. It looks like someone sprayed whoopie-string over a plus-sized Devo jacket from the 80s.
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April 27, 2014 9:42am
MT_Tinman

Viking2 I don’t agree with Rodney Hide that NZ happily embraces “reverse racism”.

Reverse racism is a non-term invented to hide the truth.

What Rodney describes is racism.
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April 27, 2014 9:43am
UglyTruth

This is a good way to begin the day 9/11 Truthers squabbling amongst themselves

For this squabble to have any relevance whatsoever, it implies the acceptance of the underlying premise of controlled demolition:

From stevieboy’s link:

The fact that the Twin Towers and WTC7 (Building 7) were destroyed in a series of controlled demolitions is not in doubt; more than 1,400 architectural and engineering professionals have called for a new, truly independent investigation and cited evidence of controlled demolitions at all three collapsed WTC steel-framed high-rises. A plethora of evidence for controlled demolitions includes numerous reports of molten steel and molten metal found in the debris pile – some of which was analyzed and found to be abundant in iron – iron-rich spherules indicating a previously molten state that were found in the WTC dust (including a sample collected ten minutes after collapse of the North Tower, eliminating the possibility of contamination from the clean up), an orange-yellow flow of molten material from the South Tower caught on video in the minutes preceding collapse indicative of an iron-rich melt and totally at odds with the “office fires” scenario, heavily sulfidated steel and partly evaporated steel members from WTC7 that were fireproofed with Monokote MK-5 which (according to NIST-sponsored tests on thermal conductivity and specific heat capacity at Anter Laboratories) outperforms the Cafco Blaze-Shield types DC/F and II used in the Towers.
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April 27, 2014 9:44am
itstricky

By implying that there is a need to encourage leadership from certain races you miss the point entirely, which is that race should not enter into it at all.

Unless, of course, one race is at a natural disadvantage to others when it comes to these sorts of things. And, if there is a person of skill and talent who is suitable for the job, perhaps race comes into it at that point of election, rather than at the point that you are inferring it does. In which case a monetary donation is put forward to overcome that barrier. You can’t sit there and tell me that it doesn’t come into consideration. Every time.
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April 27, 2014 9:47am
Scott Chris

Did someone say religion?

Alas no Popes or miracles were able to save this poor man. Tragically ironic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSe5ROrVhx8
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April 27, 2014 9:50am
Yvette

As Colville mentioned –
Labour is proposing to give the Reserve Bank “one big new tool” and broaden its objectives, Labour finance spokesman David Parker says

– and Parker seems to be the big tool they have in mind.

It would be given new tools to address the challenge of getting New Zealand’s current account deficit under control.
…
Parker criticised the strength of the New Zealand dollar, saying the International Monetary Fund thought it was overvalued by 5-15 per cent.
If it were 15 per cent too high, that would mean exporters were losing $9 billion a year, he said.
“Imagine how many more people they could employ in well paid jobs if they were earning $9 billion per annum more from our exports.”

My question may be totally naive, but what would devaluing the New Zealand dollar 5–15% do to New Zealand Debt –
NZ$ 77,196,337,000 ?
http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/newzealand

Wouldn’t it increase debt by around $ 11.58 billion
against “earning $9 billion per annum more from our exports”
means Big Tool Parker would loose us $2.58 billion straight off?
or did I go wrong some place?
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April 27, 2014 9:52am
Jack5

Rodney Hide makes some interesting allegations about Hekia Parata’s husband helping to finance Shane Jones’s bid for Labour leadership in the Hooerald today.

Not sure about his racism suggestion though. Is ACT going to put this into its election campaign?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11244832
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April 27, 2014 9:52am
Kea

“Human rights are fictional, natural rights are real.”

UglyTruth, explain natural rights and give an example of a “natural right” ?

And no Ugly, abusing me and running off like the intellectual coward and fraud you are does not count…
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April 27, 2014 9:58am
RF

I am down in Christchurch to attend an old farts birthday party. Good time to catch up on friends I have not seen for years. I caught up with someone I had not seen since we had a falling out after he freely admitted pulling down National Party signs. From memory it was in Jenny Shipleys time. This guy and his wife come from the West Coast and were more red than Mickey Savage. The real one. I used to avoid them as they had a hatred of anything National and it could be very unpleasant when politics were discussed.

When I spoke to them we made small talk and then they asked how I thought the country was going. I thought.. Here goes… Round 6 and made the usual comment…. Great under JK etc. I was surprised to hear that they agreed stating that JK had continued with Helen Clarks ideas and they thought he was a good man. When asked what they thought of Cunliffe … The response was “fucking useless”. They admitted that Labour were stuffed until JK resigned. This was the feeling amongst their labour friends……

My head is still spinning as these people come from true west coast mining stock.
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April 27, 2014 10:00am
Scott Chris

Maybe Wira Gardiner was simply arming the rebels. Can’t have a decent civil war without adequate funding.
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April 27, 2014 10:04am
wat dabney

Kea,

If you spend a day weaving a basket, whose property is it?
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April 27, 2014 10:04am
UglyTruth

UglyTruth, explain natural rights and give an example of a “natural right” ?

Google Blackstone natural rights.

And no Ugly, abusing me and running off like the intellectual coward and fraud you are does not count…

Fuck off hypocrite. If I am such a fraud then why can’t you show the facts that illustrate you allegation?
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April 27, 2014 10:05am
kowtow

RF

……JK had continued with H Clarks’ ideas…..

and therein is the problem.

JK is Labour Lite. We are borrowing billions to keep middle class welfare alive and who’s bothered?

In addition we now have far left social engineering ,passed under JK’s watch.

Labour’s victory is astounding.
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April 27, 2014 10:07am
Kea

If you spend a day weaving a basket, whose property is it?

Wat, mine if I take it by force from you.

Again I ask the question, who confers the “rights” you claim to have ? If it were truly a “natural” right then I could not possibly remove it. The harsh truth is that it is an artificial man made right we have to create and maintain. Observe nature for further details. I would take your basket and eat you, based on the natural order of things.
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April 27, 2014 10:15am
UglyTruth

If it were truly a “natural” right then I could not possibly remove it.

Non sequitur. You don’t know what you are talking about, Kea.
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April 27, 2014 10:17am
Kea

Katie reckons the US is sent by god to protect us from the dirty yellow communist heathens. I am not so sure after reading this !!!

Obama: ‘Help Us Destroy Jesus And Start A New Age Of Liberal Darkness’

“My fellow Americans and godless infidels, I command you to join me as we cast an endless pall of far-left evil across the hills and valleys of our nation!” Obama bellowed from the stage, as thousands in attendance moaned in compliance and gyrated their hips and groins in a lascivious dance. “Together, as a barbarian people forged by the wicked flames of irreligiosity and united by visions of a liberal dystopia, we will rise up as one to scorch the earth with boundless amorality.”

“The streets shall run red with the blood of forced sodomy, performed daily upon every American man, woman, and child!” the commander-in-chief shouted, froth forming around his mouth as the crowd threw hundreds of aborted fetuses onto the stage. “Die, Christians, die!”

Slamming his fists on the lectern until his hands began to bleed, Obama proceeded to lay out a “three-point plan of sin and lechery” for his second term. If reelected, the president said, he would begin by banning organized religion entirely—starting with Christianity—and burning all churches to the ground, preferably “with their wretched, Jesus-loving congregants still huddled inside like rats.”

http://www.theonion.com/articles/obama-help-us-destroy-jesus-and-start-a-new-age-of,29478/
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April 27, 2014 10:18am
Kea

UglyTruth, I am still waiting for a single example of a natural right. Just one.

I will even let you skip an explanation, of what a natural right is, as it is clearly beyond you to explain your position.
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April 27, 2014 10:20am
Jack5

Kea (10.15) is closer to the mark than wat dabney.

“Natural right” presupposes too much: a universal concept of “right”, purpose and direction in nature (or the universe or whatever), probably some sort of supernatural “right” determiner.
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April 27, 2014 10:20am
UglyTruth

I will even let you skip an explanation, of what a natural right is, as it is clearly beyond you to explain your position.

I’m quite happy to explain it to someone who isn’t a first-class asshole.
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April 27, 2014 10:25am
Yoza

wat dabney (3,482 comments) says:
April 27th, 2014 at 10:04 am

Kea,

If you spend a day weaving a basket, whose property is it?

The basket factory’s owner.
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April 27, 2014 10:25am
wat dabney

“If it were truly a “natural” right then I could not possibly remove it. ”

That doesn’t follow at all.

The question was who does the basket belong to; the one you spent all day making.

You are arguing that you have no more right to the basket than anyone else. Yet it was you who made it.
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April 27, 2014 10:25am
Kea

Jack5, exactly. This is one of the reasons people invent gods. They can not handle the reality of no absolute right and wrong. Wat is not one of them, so he should know better.
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April 27, 2014 10:26am
kowtow

So they’ve told us about Christopher Havard the Australian who became radicalised in Aotearoa,but what do we know of bin John?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11244898
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April 27, 2014 10:28am
nasska

The only natural right anyone has is to try to stop another from killing him/her. All other “rights” are conferred by humans & can be altered by anyone with the force to back up their wishes.
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April 27, 2014 10:31am
griffith

There are no rights in nature
Life consumes life
A “Right” is man inflicting his wants on others.
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April 27, 2014 10:31am
UglyTruth

“Natural right” presupposes too much: a universal concept of “right”, purpose and direction in nature (or the universe or whatever), probably some sort of supernatural “right” determiner.

Non sequitur. The fact that natural rights exist does not imply that a universal concept of rights exists.
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April 27, 2014 10:31am
Kea

Wat, you are not getting the point. If it is a NATURAL law then it does not rely upon man-made morality and reason.

In nature I can do what I please not only with your basket but with you too. Survival of the fittest is the natural law, but gives you no rights.
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April 27, 2014 10:31am
Kea

Ugly you are squirming like a Salted Slug, but still not one single example.

Wat, if I take your basket, who will you appeal to for your “rights” to be enforced ? (Now remember the rules ! It must be natural and not made-up by man)
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April 27, 2014 10:33am
UglyTruth

The only natural right anyone has is to try to stop another from killing him/her.

What is the basis for the natural right to life? If you know what it is then it is not that hard to deduce that the natural right of liberty also exists.
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April 27, 2014 10:35am
nasska

There is no natural right to life UT….just the right to try to hang on to it.

No guarantees (or rights) of success.
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April 27, 2014 10:38am
Kea

kowtow (6,753 comments) says:
April 27th, 2014 at 10:07 am

Labour’s victory is astounding.

Katie also believes the earth is 6000 years old and burning shrubbery is a useful source of knowledge. 🙂
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April 27, 2014 10:38am
UglyTruth

Ugly you are squirming like a Salted Slug, but still not one single example.

English not your first language, asshole?
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April 27, 2014 10:38am
nasska

You mean that if I set fire to my camellia & have a read I don’t actually hold the key to all knowledge Kea?

Bugger. 🙂
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April 27, 2014 10:40am
Kea

nasska, yes the right to self preservation is about as close as you can get. But it is not a right in the sense you are given it. You have to fight for it, which goes back to my original point. There are not real rights, only what we create and work to maintain.

Ugly, still waiting for a SINGLE example of a Natural Right ?
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April 27, 2014 10:40am
UglyTruth

There is no natural right to life UT….just the right to try to hang on to it.

You don’t have the right to try to keep something that is not rightfully yours.
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April 27, 2014 10:40am
kowtow

Britain ,no 1 exporter of jihadis to Syria.

Whodda thunk?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/472398/Britain-number-one-country-Muslims-are-flocking-from-to-fight-in-Syria-civil-war
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April 27, 2014 10:44am
Kea

“I’m quite happy to explain it to someone who isn’t a first-class asshole.”

Okay Ugly.

Can someone else (who is not a first-class asshole) ask UglyTruth for a single example of a Natural Right ?

That should wrap this topic up Ugly ? 🙂
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April 27, 2014 10:44am
griffith

Natural rights ?
There is not a right to self-preservation It is a want of the one who is threatened to continue his life
This has no more or less “right” than the want of the one threatening to take it.
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April 27, 2014 10:46am
Sofia

“…starting with Christianity—and burning all churches to the ground, preferably “with their wretched, Jesus-loving congregants still huddled inside like rats.”

Please please please can we today not have any mention about global warming or religion.

Oops … there endeth the Lesson in Self-Fulfillment Prophecy – well, half of it …
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April 27, 2014 10:46am
Kea

Britain ,no 1 exporter of jihadis to Syria.

Whodda thunk?

Me.

I have said many times on KB that the most dangerous, well funded and mobile extremists live in the UK and not in rural Afghanistan or Africa herding Goats.
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April 27, 2014 10:46am
Nookin

“The only natural right anyone has is to try to stop another from killing him/her.”
Surely this is only a right in those societies that have determined that it is wrong to terminate the life of another. History is resplendent with examples of societies that have no such respect for the lives of others.
There can be no “natural” rights. Only rights that reflect the beliefs of any particular society at any particular time.
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April 27, 2014 10:48am
Kea

You don’t have the right to try to keep something that is not rightfully yours.

Or else what ?

You can not go running to the Cops either you hypocrite Ugly.
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April 27, 2014 10:49am
SGA

nasska at 10:38 am

There is no natural right to life UT….just the right to try to hang on to it.
No guarantees (or rights) of success.

But even that has limits, I think. Does the condemned murderer have the “right” to kill his gaolers in order to escape execution? or the terminally ill to kill for organs? or the starving to kill for food?
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April 27, 2014 10:51am
UglyTruth

There is not a right to self-preservation It is a want of the one who is threatened to continue his life

The right to self-preservation (aka the right to life) is a corollary of theism. From a purely rational POV there is more evidence for theism than there is for atheism, so it is reasonable to believe that the right exists based on balance of probabilities.
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April 27, 2014 10:52am
UglyTruth

You can not go running to the Cops either you hypocrite Ugly.

I’m not the one who can’t live up to his own standards, Kea.
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April 27, 2014 10:54am
kowtow

UT

….that’s “her” own standards,kea.
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April 27, 2014 10:59am
Kea

Ugly, you forgot to answer the question. Ad hominem attacks are all good fun, but don’t forget to address the issue.

I will repeat the question: If I take something from you, who will you appeal to for your Natural Rights ?
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April 27, 2014 11:02am
SGA

As I think about it – does a starving person have the “right” to steal. Do property rights trump rights of self-preservation?
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April 27, 2014 11:03am
Kea

Katie how is that boycott of products made by the filthy godless yellow communist heathens going ?

I was not aware that their were internet devices available made in the US Bible Belt. (Where Jeeesus came from)
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April 27, 2014 11:05am
Scott Chris

what do we know of bin John?

He used to work as a rubbish collector?
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April 27, 2014 11:09am
RichardX

UglyTruth (3,183 comments) says:
April 27th, 2014 at 10:52 am
From a purely rational POV there is more evidence for theism than there is for atheism, so it is reasonable to believe that the right exists based on balance of probabilities.

I know I’ll regret asking but can you provide any of this evidence and how you rationally justify it?
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April 27, 2014 11:22am
wat dabney

Kea,

“ Wat, if I take your basket, who will you appeal to for your “rights” to be enforced ? ”

That’s an entirely different question.

The question is whether you, as the weaver of this lovely basket, have a moral claim on it which no one else has. That is what is meant by your right to it.

I suspect that you, who laboured all day on this thing, would feel a particular aggrievement if someone just took your basket. You wouldn’t just shrug and say ‘oh well, it belongs to everyone else just as much as it belongs to me.’

It’s not about who can use force. Everyone can use force. That’s a given.

It’s about who has the moral justification when using it.
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April 27, 2014 11:22am
kowtow

Green governance.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2613905/Lunacy-town-turned-green-A-ban-bacon-butties-Traffic-calming-sheep-Transgender-toilets-Sounds-like-send-In-fact-real-story-Britains-loopiest-party-took-Brighton.html
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April 27, 2014 11:22am
Kea

Wat, morality is not a right. It is something created. It most certainly is not natural.

You and I might agree that your basket is yours by right. But it is a purely artificial thing we agree on.

It is not a right. It is something we made.
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April 27, 2014 11:25am
kowtow

He used to work as a rubbish collector.

Now he’s been turned into rubbish to be collected.Ba boom.
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April 27, 2014 11:28am
griffith

Its a want kea both sides wattwat wants his basket so do you. neither has a natural right involved just wants and desires

We are discussing natural right not man-made rights based on morels that are only the lubricant of humanity’s collectivism

The right of tapeworms to infest you gut overrides you desire to remove them?

According to the natural right proponents this would be so
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April 27, 2014 11:36am
Kea

griffith, I don’t mean to alarm you but I agree with you. You get it 😉
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April 27, 2014 11:38am
fernglas

Did anyone see the story in Stuff about how a kids’ cartoon has a throwaway line about Middle Zealand that some drongo in Dunedin felt he had to contact the press about, to say that he found it offensive? The only thing more stupid than reporting that is that the PM was invited to comment, and the only thing more stupid than that was Darien Fenton saying Key should take it up with Warner Bros. It’s no wonder our kids are apathetic about politics; the way it works here is utterly trivial.
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April 27, 2014 11:42am
wat dabney

kea,

“morality is not a right”

If it helps think of the extended term ‘moral rights’, since this is all about distinguishing who is morally right in using violence.

I’m arguing that there is a moral difference between an arbitrary attacker using lethal force and the victim using equal force to defend himself. And we call that difference a ‘right’.

If you came out of the house one morning and found your car had been taken I suspect you would not shrug since whoever took it has as much right to it as you do. You would call the police. And the moral justification for jointly funding a police force is that we are simply working together to enforce our individual rights. The police – in the case of car theft at least – has a moral justification which those who take cars do not.
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April 27, 2014 11:43am
Kea

wat, yes I get what you are saying about morality. I agree with you on that.

What we are talking about are “rights”. In particular Natural Rights. What you are referencing are man made social rules and are not rights. They are things created by us for our benefit. My whole point centers around what is not created, but is given as a right by some Natural order.

So far Ugly has not provided a single example of a Natural Right. He simply became abusive and ran away when I asked him for one example. You can try your luck at providing an example of a Natural Right.
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April 27, 2014 11:48am
Tom Jackson

Wat, morality is not a right. It is something created. It most certainly is not natural.

No. It’s natural in the sense that all human communities have some sort of moral code, and they are all similar in basic respects. For example, pretty much every human community has a version of the golden rule (e.g. Maori with Utu).

Property rights are heavily conventional as to who owns what, and collective ownership or leasehold (from the “gods”) has been the norm for most of human history.
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April 27, 2014 11:57am
Kea

wat, is it moral to genitally mutilate a baby boy and then suck his mutilated cock, as Jews do ? How about the infants rights, are they protected ?

“Israel’s chief rabbinate says oral suction at circumcision is preferred”

In New York, at least 11 boys contracted herpes from the practice between 2004 and 2011, according to New York City health officials. Two died from the disease and two others suffered brain damage.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/israel-s-chief-rabbinate-says-oral-suction-at-circumcision-is-preferred-1.517349

Ps. Tom, here is an example of human morals to ponder.
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April 27, 2014 11:59am
wat dabney

kea,

“My whole point centers around what is not created, but is given as a right by some Natural order.”

I thought your point was that rights don’t exist if there is no one around to enforce them.

Well they do. It’s precisely how we tell the good guys from the bad guys. It how we know that the North Korean government is evil, along with socialism/communism/fascism and any other forms of coercion.
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April 27, 2014 12:03pm
Tom Jackson

Nobody is claiming that all morals are the same, Kea. Just that basic moral beliefs are widely spread. Even Jews have a version of the golden rule.

is it moral to genitally mutilate a baby boy and then suck his mutilated cock, as Jews do ? How about the infants rights, are they protected ?

I would say no, but it’s hopeless complaining about Jewish wrongdoing these days. All you’ll get is accusations of antisemitism.
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April 27, 2014 12:05pm
Kea

wat, No. You still don’t get it. It is not about enforcing. It is about the source of these alleged rights.

Rights do not exist unless there is someone around to create them.

The fact we agree on morals and rights does not refute my point in any way. We created that morality and those rights. That is why we agree on them so much. But they are not Natural Rights. They are man made. And opinions vary on what is moral and what is a right.
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April 27, 2014 12:07pm
Tom Jackson

Well they do.

Your argument is nothing more than hand waving.

Rights in the form that you talk about them are only a few centuries old and unique to Western European civilisation. For most of human history people have talked about morality in a different way.

If rights were self evident, surely people would have noticed a lot earlier and all over the word. Instead, the answer is probably that rights talk is a way of talking about morals that favours the interests of those who created it.
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April 27, 2014 12:09pm
Tom Jackson

We created that morality and those rights. That is why we agree on them so much

How do you explain the existence of universals such as the golden rule? Why is it that all human societies come up with a version of that?

The ability to recognise moral reasons as moral reasons appears to be innate to human beings. It’s almost impossible to imagine what a society composed of people who could not do that would look like.
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April 27, 2014 12:11pm
Kea

I would say no, but it’s hopeless complaining about Jewish wrongdoing these days. All you’ll get is accusations of antisemitism.

I would say no too, but Jews would say it is very much a moral thing. Many would say the baby has a RIGHT to not to suffer that. This makes my point that rights and morals are created and are not natural intrinsic things.

As for anitsemitism, who cares ? It is no worse than being anti any other group. The report was from a popular Israeli news paper reporting on comments made by Israel’s chief rabbinate. Maybe he does not give a shit about being labeled an antisemite either 🙂
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April 27, 2014 12:14pm

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