General Debate 21 April 2014

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Don the Kiwi

nasska.

Good joke – sorry, heard it years ago. 🙂

SPC.
What you are failing to recognise is the work of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus promised to His Church, and the Catholic Church traces its origins back to that. If it is as you claim, you are saying that the Holy Spirit was not with the Church – so how can you then say, it was with the reformers at any time, when the Holy Spirit was not promised to any others, other than the church that Christ founded?

You have a narrow and incorrect interpretation of “father”.
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April 21, 2014 8:16pm
SPC

Questions for the various Christians here.

Do they agree on the matter of God?

Is Jesus son of God, or God? Is Jesus God the Son, but not God the father? And who is this God the Holy Spirit?

And once they have stated their view how does it reconcile with the idea that Moslems and Jews are fellow monotheists? Given they do not equate Jesus with God at all, not even as the son of God.
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April 21, 2014 8:19pm
Johnboy

I’ve never heard it before nasska! 🙂

Keep up the good work! 🙂
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April 21, 2014 8:22pm
Dean Papa

Chill out with this comedy gold,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUOfi-8Op1c
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April 21, 2014 8:23pm
Don the Kiwi

God is a Trinitarian God – Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three persons in the One True God.

God is mystery – we cannot understand it, but accept in Faith. There are Many biblical quotes to demonstrate this Truth, but too involved to deal with here.
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April 21, 2014 8:24pm
Johnboy

The worst thing about fucking Easter is after celebrating baby Jesus and all you get to go back to bloody work on Tuesday! 🙂
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April 21, 2014 8:24pm
Viking2

You have a narrow and incorrect interpretation of “father
========================

you only have one father. A wise maori lady once said to me, if ya Maori you will almost always know your mother but not always your father.

anybody else inducing mind fairies, sky fairies et al ain’t ya father.

OK Don.
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April 21, 2014 8:25pm
SPC

Don the Kiwi, oh so the work of the holy spirit authorised the development within the church of a practice of calling a man Holy Father, when Jesus clearly said these were titles for God – call only God holy, and call God father.

Fortunately we no longer have a “holy” inquisition to suppress telling this truth to power.
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April 21, 2014 8:26pm
kowtow

Comedy gold when the BBC do A Mohammed Piss Take.

Won’t hold my breath.

Cowards and hypocrites.
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April 21, 2014 8:31pm
UglyTruth

Fortunately we no longer have a “holy” inquisition to suppress telling truth to power.

Today it is something like project Mockingbird.
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April 21, 2014 8:33pm
SPC

Don, as per the Trinity, it would appear to be an effort to explain word of God authority claim. In the first instance the Tanakh of the Jew and then the gospel of the coming of the son of God and then the church guided by the Holy Spirit claiming to have the authority of heaven on earth.
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April 21, 2014 8:33pm
big bruv

Don

Your argument falls at the first hurdle. You arrogantly assume that the bible is accepted by all and sundry as absolute fact, as if its text is the final word.

You do know how laughable that is don’t you?
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April 21, 2014 8:33pm
Tictactoe

I went to a Catholic high school, and my best friend there (who is, I think, a Baptist) commented to me how the Catholic religion is more like the Hindu religion with it’s many deities, powers-that-be and gods – you have God, Jesus, Mary, Joesph and a huge variety of saints…

It is especially noteworthy that my grandmother made us pray for Mary far more often than God or Jesus. “Holy Mary, Mother of Jesus, blessed art thou among women…” Why is that?
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April 21, 2014 8:37pm
Johnboy

Blessed be the Virgins bb for they have yet to meet Johnboy! 🙂
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April 21, 2014 8:37pm
Johnboy

See above Tictactoe! 🙂
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April 21, 2014 8:38pm
ShawnLH

Big Bruv,,,er, I mean little sis 🙂

Given that like Griff your another ignorant racist retard trying to make the world a better place by promoting atheism and putting all the “niggers” in their place I am hardly like to take lessons on truth from you now am I?

The world cannot be made a better place by the Big Bruv’s and Griff’s of the world. They are just retarded Nazi moron’s who think the White Race is superior to any other.

Two examples of atheism folks! Both gutless thugs and racist moron’s wanting to silence and kill anyone who disagrees with them. Sound familiar?
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April 21, 2014 8:40pm
nasska

….”I went to a Catholic high school”…..

You poor bugger Tictactoe. There’s been some terrible stories told about life at those institutions. 🙂
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April 21, 2014 8:41pm
stephieboy

U T. Transponder blip contact tracked and picked up by which ACT center.???
And no attempts to communicate with Flight crew or vice versa ?
My…..!
Current known location of the missing 200.?
Theories , ideas etc.
Have the morons with P4T put in a FOIA request in regard to this.?
The squabbling amongst Cters about project Mockingbird.
The accusations fly including Alex Jones as diisfo agent for the CIA..

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi/noframes/read/211419

Hilarious.!
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April 21, 2014 8:46pm
kowtow

Tictactoe

Many deities ? Rubbish.

Just like you, 3 in 1. Tic tac toe.

ps If you did go to a catholic school ,you weren’t paying much attention!
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April 21, 2014 8:48pm
UglyTruth

Two examples of atheism folks! Both gutless thugs and racist moron’s wanting to silence and kill anyone who disagrees with them. Sound familiar?

Or you could just lie about your opponents some more, ShawnLH…
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April 21, 2014 8:48pm
Johnboy

Youse onto it ShawnLH. As waitin for Kunta Kinte to publish his alternative theory of relativity…yes indeedy ah am.

It’ll be a great day for the alternative folks! 🙂
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April 21, 2014 8:51pm
Don the Kiwi

bb.

I am talking about my beliefs, and all other Christians.

Nothing arrogant there. You are free to believe what you wish – that’s free will.
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April 21, 2014 8:54pm
nasska

You’re showing the strain Shawn….never seen you have to pull the martyred AND the race cards in the same comment.

HTFU! 🙂
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April 21, 2014 8:57pm
Don the Kiwi

Tictactoe

.I went to a Catholic high school, and my best friend there (who is, I think, a Baptist) commented to me how the Catholic religion is more like the Hindu religion with it’s many deities, powers-that-be and gods – you have God, Jesus, Mary, Joesph and a huge variety of saints…

Well , that’s them Baptists for ya – haven’t got a clue on what Catholics believe. There is ony one God , who is to be worshipped. Mary, Joseph and all the saints are honoured – not worshipped.

What kowtow said
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April 21, 2014 8:58pm
Tictactoe

Kowtow:

No I didn’t, because all of the R.E. teachers were universal fuckwits relying on “textbooks” to do their “teaching.”

Nasska:

I don’t think they’re as bad as they used to be now. Certainly, my one was/is the best ‘public’ co-ed school in town (with only the property/religious fees payable by my parents.) All you have to do is put up with the R.E. crap, which I skived anyways.
Funny story is, I passed ALL of my R.E. unit standards. Guess what? I didn’t sit any one of them since I didn’t bother going, my teachers just marked me and everyone else as a pass. Guess NZQA doesn’t even bother to check religious papers.
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April 21, 2014 8:59pm
Johnboy

Thank goodness he never went to Catholic school nasska or he’d have had more than his cards pulled! 🙂
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April 21, 2014 9:00pm
nasska

Clipped, bored, punched & reamed I would think JB .

Then pulled! 🙂
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April 21, 2014 9:03pm
Johnboy

You sound like a fellow who will be almost 35 in another 15 years Tictactoe! 🙂
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April 21, 2014 9:04pm
Tictactoe

DontheKiwi:

Rubbish. Asking Mary for pray for you doesn’t sound like “honouring” a saint, it sounds like asking for reward/redemption from a deity of sorts. Asking Saint Christopher for a safe car journey out of town – does that sound like honouring a saint?

The sort of language I’d expect to find in someone “honouring” someone else would be “Let us remember who this person was and what they did in their lives.” Like ANZAC Day. Now there’s a day worth actually attending services and taking the time to reflect on our history and to pay respect for our ancestors, veterans and our currently serving military for defending our country and freedom.
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April 21, 2014 9:08pm
Tictactoe

Johnboy – I’m not that young 🙁 hahahaha
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April 21, 2014 9:12pm
ShawnLH

Atheists: No God, no reason, just whining. 🙂

I can’t stand atheists — but it’s not because they don’t believe in God. It’s because they’re crashing bores.

Other people, most recently the British cultural critic Terry Eagleton in his new book, “Faith, Reason, and Revolution,” take to task such superstar nonbelievers as Oxford biologist Richard Dawkins (“The God Delusion”) and political journalist Christopher Hitchens (“God Is Not Great”) for indulging in a philosophically primitive opposition of faith and reason that assumes that if science can’t prove something, it doesn’t exist.

My problem with atheists is their tiresome — and way old — insistence that they are being oppressed and their fixation with the fine points of Christianity. What — did their Sunday school teachers flog their behinds with a Bible when they were kids?

Read Dawkins, or Hitchens, or the works of fellow atheists Sam Harris (“The End of Faith”) and Daniel Dennett (“Breaking the Spell”), or visit an atheist website or blog (there are zillions of them, bearing such titles as “God Is for Suckers,” “God Is Imaginary” and “God Is Pretend”), and your eyes will glaze over as you peruse — again and again — the obsessively tiny range of topics around which atheists circle like water in a drain.

First off, there’s atheist victimology: Boohoo, everybody hates us ‘cuz we don’t believe in God. Although a recent Pew Forum survey on religion found that 16% of Americans describe themselves as religiously unaffiliated, only 1.6% call themselves atheists, with another 2.4% weighing in as agnostics (a group despised as wishy-washy by atheists). You or I might attribute the low numbers to atheists’ failure to win converts to their unbelief, but atheists say the problem is persecution so relentless that it drives tens of millions of God-deniers into a closet of feigned faith, like gays before Stonewall.

In his online “Atheist Manifesto,” Harris writes that “no person, whatever his or her qualifications, can seek public office in the United States without pretending to be certain that … God exists.” The evidence? Antique clauses in the constitutions of six — count ’em — states barring atheists from office.

The U.S. Supreme Court ruled such provisions unenforceable nearly 50 years ago, but that doesn’t stop atheists from bewailing that they have to hide their Godlessness from friends, relatives, employers and potential dates. One representative of the pity-poor-me school of atheism, Kathleen Goodman, writing in January for the Chronicle of Higher Education, went so far as to promote affirmative action for atheists on college campuses: specially designated, college-subsidized “safe spaces” for them to express their views.

Maybe atheists wouldn’t be so unpopular if they stopped beating the drum until the hide splits on their second-favorite topic: How stupid people are who believe in God. This is a favorite Dawkins theme. In a recent interview with Trina Hoaks, the atheist blogger for the Examiner.com website, Dawkins described religious believers as follows: “They feel uneducated, which they are; often rather stupid, which they are; inferior, which they are; and paranoid about pointy-headed intellectuals from the East Coast looking down on them, which, with some justification, they do.” Thanks, Richard!

Dennett likes to call atheists “the Brights,” in contrast to everybody else, who obviously aren’t so bright. In a 2006 essay describing his brush with death after a heart operation, Dennett wrote these thoughts about his religious friends who told him they were praying for his recovery: “Thanks, I appreciate it, but did you also sacrifice a goat?” With friends like Daniel Dennett, you don’t need enemies.

Then there’s P.Z. Myers, biology professor at the University of Minnesota’s Morris campus, whose blog, Pharyngula, is supposedly about Myers’ field, evolutionary biology, but is actually about his fanatical propensity to label religious believers as “idiots,” “morons,” “loony” or “imbecilic” in nearly every post. The university deactivated its link to Myers’ blog in July after he posted a photo of a consecrated host from a Mass that he had pierced with a rusty nail and thrown into the garbage (“I hope Jesus’ tetanus shots are up to date”) in an effort to prove that Catholicism is bunk — or something.

The problem with atheists — and what makes them such excruciating snoozes — is that few of them are interested in making serious metaphysical or epistemological arguments against God’s existence, or in taking on the serious arguments that theologians have made attempting to reconcile, say, God’s omniscience with free will or God’s goodness with human suffering. Atheists seem to assume that the whole idea of God is a ridiculous absurdity, the “flying spaghetti monster” of atheists’ typically lame jokes. They think that lobbing a few Gaza-style rockets accusing God of failing to create a world more to their liking (“If there’s a God, why aren’t I rich?” “If there’s a God, why didn’t he give me two heads so I could sleep with one head while I get some work done with the other?”) will suffice to knock down the entire edifice of belief.

What primarily seems to motivate atheists isn’t rationalism but anger — anger that the world isn’t perfect, that someone forced them to go to church as children, that the Bible contains apparent contradictions, that human beings can be hypocrites and commit crimes in the name of faith. The vitriol is extraordinary.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/may/17/opinion/oe-allen17
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April 21, 2014 9:13pm
mandk

ShawnLH,
Your 8.40 was disgraceful and unbecoming.
I really think you should withdraw from this site until you can engage in a more fitting manner.
Matt. 5.16
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April 21, 2014 9:15pm
SPC

Don the kiwi, you say “the Anglican Church has approved of divorce, and now accepts homosexuality – which is contrary to the teaching of Christ”. The bible mentions opposition to re-marriage after a divorce, not to divorce itself. The Anglicans do not remarry the divorced. Catholic Church opposition to divorce itself is not biblical.
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April 21, 2014 9:16pm
Tictactoe

So sure of your opinions against atheists/agnostics that you copy paste from other writers, ShawnLH. Wow, colour me impressed by your repetitive use of control c – v. Seriously, how many posts have you made that was actually thought out and written by you?
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April 21, 2014 9:17pm
Johnboy

“Asking Saint Christopher for a safe car journey out of town ”

Now you have a good point there Tictactoe. Whats your position regarding the dangers to vehicular locomotion presented by all these wankers that have crosses and rosary beads and other heathen fetishes hanging from their rear view mirrors?

Never let it ever be said that I am a damned racist but I have noticed it to more prevalent amongst our darker brethren! 🙂
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April 21, 2014 9:21pm
Reid

The Godhead a.k.a. the trinity is mentioned three times in the scriptures. It’s been removed from many modern translations but the KJV and the Geneva both have it, at Ac 17:29; Ro 1:20 and Co 2:9.

FYI.

As many of you will have witnessed not just over Easter but before, it’s entirely possible and not uncommon in fact for people of the faith to vehemently disagree on many issues and for those who aren’t of the faith I hope this debate between Shawn and I has demonstrated that we don’t just go along and listen to the preacher in some kind of hypnotic trance and emerge all brainwashed and in lockstep proceed madly to knock on any and every door in our mad desire to preach the good news like some cult.

Issues like the homosexuality in the Anglican communion that Don mentioned are matters that are debated vigorously and you know why? Because the Bible’s a library, not a book. There are close to 1,000,000 words in it (997 something thousand I think) and each word has been translated multiple times sometimes by well meaning and perhaps, sometimes, cynically by those meaning ill.

The Schofield Bible for example is one of the standard US translations and this is why Americans are so fascinated by the rapture which newsflash, isn’t in the original texts in anything like the way its described in the Schofield. And that’s just one example.

But the duty of each and every person of the faith is to apply faithfully and vigorously their current interpretation of the Word and that’s no game. As a Christian my religion is my bedrock of life and it comes before children, wife, siblings and parents. You know, when they were being thrown to the lions, all Christians needed to do to avoid that was to say they bow to whoever the current Ceasar of the day was and accept him as their living god? That’s all they had to do. But they didn’t, and I won’t, either, if and when the day comes when that question is asked of me.

Sorry to the rest of you to make religion the main focus of the Easter Gd’s. In some ways. In other ways, it seems most appropriate. It’s just a shame that no-one will change their mind based on a blog post, since it’s the most important question any of us ever answers, even if some don’t know it.

P.S. Thank you Don for your kind defence and BTW, I’m one Anglican whose with the Catholic stance on both homosexuality and abortion.
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April 21, 2014 9:30pm
griffith

2000 years of fucked up christ stains telling the rest how to live
Times have changed fucker it is now time for us to tell you idiots were to get of
GOD is your fantasy
Ignorant dumb twats who deserve laughter at their stupid bronze age superstition.Dosent one of the commandments you retards say are the law of god say don’t worship false idols dont pray to anyone but me so catlickers pray toand worship everyone but god “‘You shall have no other gods before me.
Thou_shalt_not_make_unto_thee_any_graven_image” title
4–6 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness
of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them
or serve them, for I the LORD
your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the
children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my
commandments.
8–10 “‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any
likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth
beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down
to them or serve them; for I the LORD
your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the
children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but
showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my
commandments
mary
jesus
the saints
the popes
are all false idols

Criststain retards can’t even keep your own stupid rules and you expect me to ….. fuck off
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April 21, 2014 9:33pm
Johnboy

Well said Reid. I’m waiting for the day when the Pope marries the first Priest and Nun into holy wedlock!

What a great day for religion that will be! 🙂
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April 21, 2014 9:34pm
Reid

I’m waiting for the day when the Pope marries the first Priest and Nun into holy wedlock!

Hell and freezing springs to mind my friend.

BTW that was Col 2:9 not Co, above
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April 21, 2014 9:38pm
thedavincimode

Goodness me grief.

No Easter eggs?
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April 21, 2014 9:40pm
Johnboy

I never said gay priest or lesbian nun Reid. It may be closer than you suspect! 🙂
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April 21, 2014 9:40pm
thedavincimode

ShawnLH at 9:13 pm

Was that a parody piece? Well done you.
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April 21, 2014 9:42pm
Don the Kiwi

Tictactoe.
your 9.08 pm.

You’ve obviously never heard of intercessory prayer. If I asked you to pray for me for a particular reason, would you do so?
That is intercessory prayer – I’m asking you to intercede for me to God. Everyone’s prayer has merit. The bible is full of it. That’s what prayer to Mary and the saints is – asking them to intercede for us to God.

Once again, you have a very limited understanding of what “honour” is. I guess once you get past Year 6, you may have a deeper understanding. 😉
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April 21, 2014 9:43pm
thedavincimode

Looking forward to ANZAC day now – just to round out this period of reflection. Hopefully MNIJ/borker will put in a cameo.
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April 21, 2014 9:45pm
Johnboy

Tictactoe the Elder would never have made a mistake like that Don! 🙂
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April 21, 2014 9:46pm
Johnboy

I was hoping Kea may fly down from the Himalaya and shite on us again Leonardo! 🙂
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April 21, 2014 9:48pm
Don the Kiwi

Good old griffith.

Having his usual spaz attack. Dribbling away as he usually does.

Hows Man-Made global warming going, griff? 🙂
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April 21, 2014 9:49pm
thedavincimode

Johnboy

I’m hoping Kea will fly down and polish your glasses. You’ve been making some rash confessions lately. Very concerning.
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April 21, 2014 9:52pm
Don the Kiwi

Reid.

Pleasure , brother.

My Anglican friends hold the same view as you – its the liberal element that is the problem. As Christian communions, Catholics and Anglicans (of the more conservative faction) are very close. God bless you.
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April 21, 2014 9:53pm
Johnboy

O what fun it has all been tonight but I must away to get my rest so I can get back to work tomorrow and help contribute to Bill’s surplus! 🙂

Night y’all.
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April 21, 2014 9:55pm
Don the Kiwi

OMG.

johnboy’s really lost the plot.

Wanting Kea to come back???? Spare us – be careful what you wish for. 🙂
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April 21, 2014 9:55pm
ShawnLH

Griff,

the real danger to society are stone age, knuckle gragging racist stains like you, desperate to turn the clock back to a time when you could kick the natives and “niggers” around.

Get with the 21st century Griff. Racism is the refuge of the irrational, the stupid, and the ignorant.
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April 21, 2014 9:59pm
Tictactoe

So, now we need middlemen in order to convey our prayers up to God?

And why then would we pray to specific saints for specific purposes? St Christopher for travel. St Francis of Assisi for charity. (I actually quite liked St Francis of Assisi though, the story was good and the morals behind it too). St Benedict if you are studying/a student. Saint Daniel for courage (as it was he who faced the lions, I think). Even Saint Dominic for astronomers!!

What’s wrong with appealing directly to God, like, say, the Baptists? Do you need someone that you’re on more friendly terms with to put in a good word for you?
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April 21, 2014 10:00pm
ShawnLH

Richard Dawkins and Atheist Crimes:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rory-fitzgerald/richard-dawkins-should-be_b_541387.html

“For many years now Richard Dawkins has been working like a demon, you might say, to discredit all belief in God. He has now said that he wants to have the Pope arrested when he comes to Britain for later this year for covering up “crimes against humanity”.

Most atheists I know are great people, sticking to the truth as they see it. Most also remain open to new possibilities and acknowledge that they are not entirely omniscient, and are respectful to those who think differently to themselves.

Dawkins, however, often seems to have only contempt for the majority of human kind who, unlike him, do believe in the spiritual. His selective campaigning about political issues makes me wonder: is he really an objective seeker of truth, or is he someone who just hates and wants to undermine Judaeo-Christian principles?

Dawkins has many times tried to say that Einstein was not spiritual in the way most people understand it. Yet Einstein said this:

“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.”

Here is perhaps the most important scientist of all time, with an incredibly profound mind, but with the humility to acknowledge how feeble and frail the human mind really is. Our universe is far from explained and the more our scientific knowledge increases, the more mysterious our reality seems to be. It is untrue to say that the settled explanation of our universe is that it is a meaningless accident that functions solely on mechanistic principles.

Richard Dawkins has become a sort of Messiah for some atheists. He is an evolutionary biologist. I’m not sure why he feels that expertise in such an arcane field gives him authority to pronounce on spiritual questions. But, if biologists hold the keys to heaven, people may wish to consider the thoughts of Nobel Prize winning microbiologist Werner Arber, or eminent geneticist, Francis S. Collins, who led the Human Genome Project. Both are believers in God, and both find evidence for the divine in science itself. The debate about the reality of the spiritual is fascinating and is of profound importance to human kind, but Dawkins increasingly only brings to it noise and hatred.

Dawkins is right to be angry about the awful cover up of child abuse in the Catholic Church, but he seems to have a tendency himself to be very selective in the issues he shouts about, and those he remains silent about. In that sense, he can be seen to hush up the many horrendous crimes committed by atheist ideologues in the 20th century.

Many earlier atheistic ideologies despised Jewish and Christian thinking, and were often obsessed by natural selection. The Nazi ideology, for example, was inspired in part by philosophers like Nietzsche who proclaimed that “God is dead” and that Christian morality was a “slave morality”, not befitting an “uebermench”. Atheistic communism, as manifested in the Soviet Union, hated religion, “the opium of the masses” and it brought about the murder of millions more in Gulags and purges.

As recently as 1979, the Cambodian genocide killed 1.7 million people. These were murdered by communist atheists. War crimes tribunals are now being set up in Phnomh Penh. The Tibetan people continue to be persecuted by an atheistic tyranny. It is perfectly reasonable to be critical of the many bad things done in the name of religion, but I don’t see Dawkins loudly decrying the actions of atheists in Cambodia or Tibet. Why? Because his preference appears to be to emphasise religiously motivated barbarism over the many wrongs prompted by some atheistic ideologies.

Many now see Dawkins as something of a narrow-minded fundamentalist himself, increasingly redolent of a man with no sense of smell going around shrieking to everyone that their sense of smell is a delusion.

Perhaps Dawkins imagines that by promoting his grim personal philosophy as the ultimate truth, and by viciously attacking ancient moral systems upon which Western Civilization is founded, he will bring about some sort of atheist utopia. He seeks to magnify wrongs done by religions, and to breeze over the immense horrors brought about by some atheist belief systems. Yet we have seen what atheist utopias can look like.”
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April 21, 2014 10:03pm
Don the Kiwi

Tictactoe.

“So, now we need middlemen in order to convey out prayers up to God?”

No, but it helps. Think the wedding feast of Cana. Jesus wasn’t going to do anything until Mary asked him to. Check the Old Testament. God did things when people appealed to Him – not just for themselves, but for others.
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April 21, 2014 10:05pm
ShawnLH

Exploding the False Claims of the New Atheists and revealing atheist crimes against humanity

The Irrational Atheist: Dissecting the Unholy Trinity of Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens. By Vox Day

“Day reveals that 52 atheist rulers in the 20th century, from 1917 to 2007, were responsible for a body count of around 148 million dead — “three times more than all the human beings killed by war, civil war and individual crime in the entire 20th century.” And so it turns out that “the average atheist crime against humanity” is “18.3 million percent worse than the very worst depredation committed by Christians.” To support these powerful refutations, Day offers footnotes on virtually every page.”

https://www.newoxfordreview.org/reviews.jsp?did=1108-gardiner
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April 21, 2014 10:06pm
ShawnLH

Robert Royal asks: When are secularists and atheists going to do some of the repenting they expect from Christians?

“[Atheistic] communism killed at least 100 million people in the twentieth century, 25 million in the former Soviet Union, 65 million in Communist China – in all about seventeen times as many people as there were Jews who died in the Holocaust. It is hard not to believe that the relative silence about this large fact of the last century reflects an uneasy conscience among many writers and thinkers in the West who had some share in supporting or apologizing for the most murderous regimes the world has ever seen.

Socialist regimes committed many enormous crimes against the Church as well. Some 300,000 Catholics perished in Mexico, the first socialist country on earth after its revolution. In Spain during the Spanish Civil War, the so-called Republican forces in which anarchist and communist elements dominated, 7,000 documented cases of martyrdom occurred. Whole religious orders were wiped out. “
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April 21, 2014 10:08pm
griffith

retard spawn have a look at religious society let’s have a good old stoning or two Burn few witches and heretics alive and all that lovely christ stain historical love You sick sick puppy

AGW
ask the poor bastards who had their houses wrecked by wind and rain last week don or the ones along the coast who had waves coming into their houses

record drought with record rain events just like predicted The same for oozy and the states
wait till next year as the weather is going to get real wild in places due to the first decent el nino since 1998
its science you retarded god whacker not religion

one has facts the other faith

faith means belief without support
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April 21, 2014 10:19pm
Don the Kiwi

Yeah Shawn.

One really does have to ask the question – apart from criticising and ridiculing religion – mainly Christians – what have the atheists done that has been positive and constructive in our world?

The Christian church over the centuries invented and developed universities, hospitals, scientific and medical advances – 60% of the hospitals and schools in the USA were instituted by Christian churches.

And Atheists have done these things for humanity…………
>
>
>
>
>
Oohh – Nothing??? Surely not.
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April 21, 2014 10:22pm
publicwatchdog

Ok Kiwibloggers – now for some SERIOUS stuff?

Looking forward to the considered opinions of Jordan Williams (Taxpayers’ Union), Cameron Slater, NZ political parties, mainstream media …………………
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

HOW CORRUPT IS NEW ZEALAND?

Try this for size ……..

Did you know that the NZ Auditor-General Lyn Provost is a shareholder in Sky City, but she failed to disclose this when I asked her do an inquiry into why the Organised and Financial Crime Agency of NZ (OFCANZ) had failed to do any due diligence on the increased risk of money-laundering arising from the NZ International Convention Centre Bill?

I’ve petitioned Parliament for an inquiry:
____________________________________________________________________________________________________

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1404/S00334/select-committees-for-14-april-to-17-april-2014.htm
Finance and Expenditure

The committee met on 16 April when it further considered the 2012/13 financial review of the Earthquake Commission, and the petitions of Deidre Kent and 877 others and of Penelope Bright and 13 others.
………………………………..
http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/presented/petitions/50DBHOH_PET3196_1/petition-of-penelope-mary-bright-and-13-others-that-the

Petition of Penelope Mary Bright and 13 others

That the House conduct an urgent inquiry into why New Zealand Auditor-General Lyn Provost did not disclose that she was a shareholder in Sky City Entertainment Group Ltd at the time she declined to conduct an urgent investigation into the failure of the Organised and Financial Crime Agency of New Zealand to carry out ‘due diligence’ on the increased risk of money-laundering arising from the New Zealand International Convention Centre (Bill) 2013.

Petition number: 2011/101
Presented by: Denis O’Rourke
Date presented: 12 March 2014
Referred to: Finance and Expenditure Committee

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

Quite a BIGGIE don’t you think?

Particularly when the Office of the Auditor General is the ‘Platinum’ sponsor of Transparency International New Zealand?

http://www.transparency.org.nz/Partners-and-Sponsors

“Partners and Sponsors

Cornerstone Platinum
The Office of the Auditor General ”

http://www.transparency.org.nz/docs/2013/Integrity-Plus-2013-New-Zealand-National-Integrity-System-Assessment-Executive-Summary.pdf

“Overall conclusions of the report

New Zealand’s national integrity system remains fundamentally strong, and New Zealand is rated highly against a broad range of cross-country transparency and good governance indicators. Since the first NIS assessment of New Zealand in 2003, a welcome strengthening of transparency and accountability has occurred in some areas.

The assessment found that the strongest pillars in the NIS are the Office of the Auditor General, the judiciary, the Electoral Commission, and the Ombudsman. …..”

________________________________________________________________________________________________

Oh dear ….

Have yet to see any public comment from Transparency International NZ (TINZ) on this above-mentioned petition for an Inquiry into the NZ Auditor General – their “CORNERSTONE PLATINUM SPONSOR” …..?

Penny Bright
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April 21, 2014 10:24pm
Nostradamus

Yawn!
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April 21, 2014 10:26pm
griffith

fuck of don thats crap
university and eduction were an muslim idea that the western world followed after .the christian church kept knowledge away from the common man deliberately for century’s.The church destroyed the learning we inherited from the Greeks and romans hid it away from society as they realised that knowledge and religion are mutually exclusive
Hippocratic oath predates christ stains,

In short your full of it as usual for an apologist christ stain
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April 21, 2014 10:31pm
Don the Kiwi

Griff, me old mate.

“…..ask the poor bastards who had their houses wrecked by wind and rain last week don or the ones along the coast who had waves coming into their houses”.

I remember the same sort of thing happening in the late 1940’s when i was a kid. In 1917 , a flood occurred in the Bay of Plenty, when one could roe a boat from Te Puke to Maketu – across flooded farms etc. Hasn’t been one that bad since. I recall reading of a terrible fire in Victoria in Australia that burnt thousands of acres of land, houses, people died — no, not the ash wednesday fires of 1996 ??? – it was in 1870.

Just a bit of severe weather griff, that we get from time to time.

Sorry, you’ll have to do better than that.

BTW, have you read the latest part 3 of the IPCC report? The have toned down their direpredicitons, and are starting to suggest adaptation rather than intervention – a much more sensible approach.
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April 21, 2014 10:32pm
SPC

Don, Christians did not invent universities they merely founded some of them. Tarsus was the location of one of the 3 great universities of its time before the Apostle Paul was born.
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April 21, 2014 10:35pm
Don the Kiwi

Mmmm.

Funny, I thought one of the first universities in Europe was the University of Paris – founded, I think, in the 9th. century. Not a muslim in sight for a thousand miles. And all that learning and education of Byzantium in Constantinople – when the muzzies got there finally in the 14 th. century, they were amazed.

It seems your knowledge of history is about as accurate and fullsome as your advocacy for AGW – seriously flawed.

I enjoy the crack though. Goodnite. 🙂
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April 21, 2014 10:38pm
Don the Kiwi

SPC.

If that’s correct, I stand corrected. Tarsus eh, a university founded by Jews and Romans – shit o dear – that’ll send griff into orbit. 🙂
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April 21, 2014 10:40pm
Don the Kiwi

And again, I suppose one could say that the Greek centres of learning with Aristotle, Plato and the other guys could be called early universities.
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April 21, 2014 10:42pm
SGA

@ShawnLH
Goodness, are you trying to break Ugly and Reid’s records for most cut/pastes and links in one GD!
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April 21, 2014 10:43pm
SPC

Tarsus was rated second tier behind Athens and Alexandria and was known for being a bastion of stoicism. It’s gymnasia, theater, school of art and stadium are suggestive of its (Greek) origins.
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April 21, 2014 10:47pm
Reid

“[Atheistic] communism killed at least 100 million people in the twentieth century, 25 million in the former Soviet Union…

In violent opposition to all this sphere of Jewish effort rise the schemes of the International Jews. The adherents of this sinister confederacy are mostly men reared up among the unhappy populations of countries where Jews are persecuted on account of their race. Most, if not all, of them have forsaken the faith of their forefathers, and divorced from their minds all spiritual hopes of the next world. This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It played, as a modern writer, Mrs. Webster, has so ably shown, a definitely recognizable part in the tragedy of the French Revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the Nineteenth Century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire.

There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution, by these international and for the most part atheistical Jews, it is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from the Jewish leaders. Thus Tchitcherin, a pure Russian, is eclipsed by his nominal subordinate Litvinoff, and the influence of Russians like Bukharin or Lunacharski cannot be compared with the power of Trotsky, or of Zinovieff, the Dictator of the Red Citadel (Petrograd) or of Krassin or Radek — all Jews. In the Soviet institutions the predominance of Jews is even more astonishing. And the prominent, if not indeed the principal, part in the system of terrorism applied by the Extraordinary Commissions for Combating Counter-Revolution has been taken by Jews, and in some notable cases by Jewesses.

“Zionism versus Bolshevism: A Struggle for the Soul of the Jewish People.” ILLUSTRATED SUNDAY HERALD, London, February 8, 1920. Winston Churchill.

See, modern history has been cleansed. Guess who by. Educate yourself. And Winston was wrong on one thing. Lenin was part Jewish. Or should I say, a Jew who said he was, but wasn’t.
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April 21, 2014 10:49pm
Tictactoe

Penny Not-so, I don’t live in Auckland, but I’m gonna say it anyways:

Pay your goddamn rates.

I’ve never seen so much carping on and making up bullshit to justify cheap arsing out on your obligations.
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April 21, 2014 10:50pm
publicwatchdog

Who is on the Finance and Expenditure Select Committee?

http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/mpp/mps/current/?pf=committeeshortname&sf=finance+and+expenditure&lgc=0

Finance and Expenditure Chairperson Goldsmith, Paul National Party, List
Finance and Expenditure Deputy-Chairperson Barry,Maggie National Party, North Shore
Finance and Expenditure Member Bennett, David National Party, Hamilton East
Finance and Expenditure Member Clark, David Labour Party, Dunedin North
Finance and Expenditure Member Hayes, John National Party, Wairarapa
Finance and Expenditure Member Jones, Shane Labour Party, List
Finance and Expenditure Member Norman, Russel Green Party, List
Finance and Expenditure Member Parker, David Labour Party, List
Finance and Expenditure Member Peters, Winston NZ First, List
Finance and Expenditure Member Ross, Jami-Lee National Party, Botany
Finance and Expenditure Member Wilkinson, Kate National Party, Waimakariri
__________________________________________________________________________________________________

Penny Bright
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April 21, 2014 10:52pm
Don the Kiwi

Time to go to bed Penny.

The strain is starting to show.
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April 21, 2014 10:56pm
Tictactoe

ShawnLH: All your copy pasting and making baseless assertations along the lines of ‘Atheists are so stupid’ (not a direct quote, but I can’t be bothered reading through your spam to find original writing from you) only serves to prove what a tool you are, without the faculties to actually debate the points at hand.

Engaging in gish-gallop (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop, summarised as “starting 10 fires in 10 minutes.”) detracts from what could be a good and engaging conversation because no one can be bothered to read through your drivel to find your original writings, rebut them in a clear and concise manner, and hope for a clear concise reply on the specific points raised (because of course, your reply is to post yet more spam from other writers)

Fucking pathetic.
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April 21, 2014 10:58pm
publicwatchdog

“Penny Not-so, I don’t live in Auckland, but I’m gonna say it anyways:

Pay your goddamn rates.

I’ve never seen so much carping on and making up bullshit to justify cheap arsing out on your obligations.”

errrr…. is that right ‘TackyToe rag’?

Got some FACTS and EVIDENCE which prove that I’M the one who is ‘making up bullshit’?

(A bit of ‘projection’ happening here, perhaps?)

And – no – I will NOT pay Auckland Council rates when their statutory duties arising from Local Government Act and the Public Records Act are not being complied with.

YOU may be a gutless SHEEP ‘TackyToe rag’, who does not believe in citizens’ lawful rights to ‘open,transparent and democratically-accountable ‘ local government – but I am not.

So you keep on tugging your (forelock), and whining at those of us who have the backbone to make a stand on principle defending YOUR rights …….

Have a lovely evening – you’ve certainly helped to make mine 🙂

Kind regards,

Penny Bright
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April 21, 2014 11:05pm
RichardX

On KB it is pointless arguing the law with UT, evolution with Rowan, conspiracy theory with Reid or atheism with shawn but anyway…

ShawnLH (1,951 comments) says:
April 21st, 2014 at 9:13 pm
… or visit an ~~atheist~~ apologetics website or blog (there are zillions of them, bearing such titles as “God Is for ~~Suckers~~ Winners,” “God Is ~~Imaginary~~ The Creator of Everything” and “God Is ~~Pretend~~ Real”), and your eyes will glaze over as you peruse — again and again — the obsessively tiny range of topics around which ~~atheists~~ apologists circle like water in a drain.

We all realize you have so much invested in your brand of religion that you will accept nothing else but why so intolerant of atheism. I am glad to see you managed to avoid calling them Satanists anymore. The contradictions you present are amazing. The way you have stated there is no evidence for god, only faith and personal experience but then you go for the apologetics self-defeating logic to try to dismiss atheists. You state you don’t go for WL Craigs style of apologetics but you quote Matt Slick who has far less credibility. You use the argument from authority on your interpretation of the bible but don’t mention all the other Christian views that have alternative interpretations

…few of them are interested in making serious metaphysical or epistemological arguments against God’s existence, or in taking on the serious arguments that theologians have made attempting to reconcile, say, God’s omniscience with free will or God’s goodness with human suffering.

Theists are the ones making the claim that a god exists so the burden of proof sits squarely on your shoulders. If you can only provide faith and personal experience as reasons for why you believe in god how am I expected to hold a view other than I do not share your faith or your personal experience.
The only other offer from you is a smattering of presuppositional apologetics which are more viciously circular than anything Matt Slick or Eric Hovind or their ilk can accuse atheists of using

The claim of atheistic ideologues has been refuted more times than I can count yet you accuse Reid & UT as well as atheists of not understanding evidence. The irony is astounding

Selective quotes from Einstein do not change the stance Dawkins and all people should hold on the appalling behavior of the previous pope (before he was pope) in his actions in moving sexual predator priests to avoid secular justice
Will the priests who committed these crimes but admitted to heaven? Of course they will if you believe their doctrine. Is this an example of justice from god for which Jesus made the sacrifice you believe he made?

And somehow it is the atheists that are intellectually dishonest….you really need to do better
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April 21, 2014 11:10pm
Tictactoe

Haha Penny Not-so, you are so fucking weird and off your rocker.

Also, I think you forgot to add on “Meant of course in a caring way” to your little insults… I’m beginning to feel like you don’t care about me at all :'(

😀
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April 21, 2014 11:19pm
ShawnLH

RichardX,

Given the many posts above I think we can safely conclude:

Atheism is a mindless cult let by intellectually dishonest charlatans like Dawkins.

The burden of proof is on atheists to prove that their violent cult will make society better. Exhibit A against this idea: Griff, a racist thug who’s ideology is a mix of Nazism and Stalinism.

Atheism, being a cult, is a tiny fraction of humanity. It has created nothing of value at any point in history. It cannot lay claim to having founded any civilisation. The only real world examples have all been mass murdering totalitarian states.

You need to better Richard, and explain why the rest of humanity should even bother to take atheists seriously.

Personally, I don’t. Most atheists are emotionally stunted psychopaths, Griff being a perfect example.

You have nothing to offer the world except hate, irrational ideology, and mass murder.
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April 21, 2014 11:30pm
publicwatchdog

Which FACTS do you particularly dislike ‘Tacky Toe rag’ ?

You poor wee thing.

Kind regards,

Penny Bright

http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz

http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz
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April 21, 2014 11:37pm
SGA

ShawnLH at 11:30 pm

Atheism is a mindless cult let by intellectually dishonest charlatans like Dawkins.

Prattling on about Dawkins and cults is just silly. The people you argue with on this blog rarely mention him at all – you’re much more likely to bring him up than they are. How often do they post lengthy quotes from his work? They’re actually more likely to quote from the bible. I suspect that fewer of them have bothered to read Dawkins than you’d expect. He seems more your obsession than theirs.

Atheists aren’t a particularly organised group as a general rule. There’s not a recognised heirarchy, leaders and “required readings” in the same way that, say, the Anglican church has. If Dawkins, Hutchins (sp?), and Meyers got run over by a bus tomorrow, no new “appointments” would need to be made.
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April 22, 2014 12:04am
Tictactoe

Penny Not-so:

The fact that you’re a thief.
You don’t pay your rates.
You use services that those rates pay for. There is no way to get round this. If you walk, you’re using rate funded concrete paths. If you drive, you’re using rate funded roads. If you take public transportation, you’re using rate funded bus and train services.
Do you go to any parks? That’s rate funded.
How do you get rid of your rubbish? If you use the normal pick up services, that’s also rate funded. If you use the dump which is usually subisided by councils, then that’s rate funded. If you were in another city, you’d also not be paying for the water you’d be using as well.

There is no escaping this fact: you are a thief, a charlatan and a hypocrite.

And since you LOVE links (as you post so many) here’s one for you:

http://bit.ly/1jutvBM
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April 22, 2014 12:27am
Left Right and Centre

Unlike these other twats my personal Lord and Saviour is a daily contributor to this otherwise fine blog. I can prove His existence. Well – I might have to stalk Him down to prove it but you know what I mean.

Thank fuck Easter is over. What a load of bollocks.
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April 22, 2014 1:11am
big bruv

ShawnLH

“You have nothing to offer the world except hate, irrational ideology, and mass murder”

You have just described religion perfectly. Given that you are intellectually stunted due to the poison of religion I do not expect you to see the truth.

Religion hates all other religions and particularly hates unbelievers.
Religion is totally irrational. Born of a virgin mother????…come on, nobody really believes that. Why does religion see the birth canal as a one way passage?
Religion is responsible for more mass murder than anything committed in the name of atheism.

Stop telling lies Shawn.
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April 22, 2014 7:07am

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