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April 14, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 14 April 2014

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General Debate

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Fletch

Gawd, these reporters on TV have such awful accents, especially the female ones.
Don’t they teach them to enunciate properly in journalism school?

They need elocution lessons.
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April 14, 2014 7:25pm
doggone7

Another day of anger and bitterness – it’s not great mate. Maybe a membership will help relieve some of the tension, frustration and fury. Wonder if Les Mills would oblige?
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April 14, 2014 7:37pm
OneTrack

wreck – “The issue I have with the governments statements, is that auckland hosue prices are more a function of the incomes of chinese millionaires than kiwis.”

All those chinese millionaires buying up all the properties for sale in … Henderson, South Auckland, Glenfield…. Oh. Wait.

But, of course, first home buyers, circa 2014, dont want to live “there”. They only want to live in Herne Bay or Grey Lynn, so they can stroll down to Ponsonby Road to sip their latte’s at the cafes on Saturday morning.
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April 14, 2014 7:39pm
Judith

@ nasska (9,448 comments) says:
April 14th, 2014 at 7:24 pm

I am happy to say I’ve never seen a man breastfeed, and I hope I never do… somehow it just seems a little bit ‘creepy’, however, I’m sure someone who believes in creation will tell us why God designed the male to have this ability?
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April 14, 2014 7:39pm
mikenmild

They’re like the appendix and fossils, Judith: put there by god to puzzle us…
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April 14, 2014 7:44pm
ShawnLH

“It always makes me laugh when the deluded Christians get upset with atheists pushing reality.”

Your not pushing reality Griff, just your version of it, and one that does look terribly useful for living a good life.

“Atheists start pushing back and we are the ones in the wrong.”

Pushing back would mean having a civil debate. Your version of “pushing back” is to spew personal abuse at people. Which is why we are at this point. From day one you never tried to seriously debate with me, you just indulged in name calling and insults.

So I pushed back, and you throw a tantrum. PATHETIC. If you can’t take it Griff, don’t push it.

As for burning. your welcome to try. But I suspect that like most bullies your full of shit and hot air. Very brave behind a computer screen, but a gutless coward when it comes to the crunch.

Seriously, I was not trying to insult you when I said you need help. You really do. Your anger issues are blindingly obvious to most people here.

Get help Griff. And for God’s sake, grow up. Nobody is ever going to be convinced by anything you say if all you do is spew abuse.
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April 14, 2014 7:48pm
nasska

Last night I was sitting on the sofa watching TV when I
heard my wife’s voice from the kitchen.
“What would you like for dinner, sweetheart?
Chicken, beef or lamb?”

I said, “Why thank you, I’ll have chicken!”

She replied, “You’re having soup Dear.
I was talking to the cat.”
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April 14, 2014 8:00pm
nasska

Shawn

Have you thought about having a chat to Huey to see if you are eligible for any upcoming miracles that might see you able to get back to work. I’m not sure whether wankers’ wrist or tossers’ elbow are covered but it wouldn’t hurt to ask.

It’s just that we’ve got queues of other lunatics lining up, waiting for room on GD, to tell us about their imaginary friends & how the medication helped. 🙂
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April 14, 2014 8:15pm
Harriet

“…….It’s just that we’ve got queues of other lunatics lining up, waiting for room on GD, to tell us about their imaginary friends & how the medication helped……”

O miserable man, what a deformed monster has sin made you! God made you “little lower than the angels”; sin has made you little better than the devils. 😎
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April 14, 2014 8:23pm
mikenmild

Full moon tomorrow, nasska.
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April 14, 2014 8:23pm
nasska

Then Mike, we are doomed. 🙂
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April 14, 2014 8:26pm
SGA

mikenmild at 8:23 pm

Full moon tomorrow, nasska.

Damn, forgot to order the goat …. again.
Guess it’s a cockerel again, but it’s just not the same.
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April 14, 2014 8:27pm
nasska

Put it this way Harriet….a good friend of my grandmother was a devout Christian & believed that when she died she would go to Heaven to be with God.

She also thought that there were little people inside her radio. 🙂
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April 14, 2014 8:28pm
nasska

Have you tried sheep SGA? 🙂

(I just thought I’d put a plug in for us sheep & beef farmers)
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April 14, 2014 8:31pm
SGA

nasska at 8:31 pm

Have you tried sheep SGA? 🙂

My luck it would one of Johnboy’s and who knows how that would stuff up the ritual. The devil is in the detail, don’t you know.
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April 14, 2014 8:33pm
mikenmild

I’m anticipating that tomorrow night’s GD will be especially lively. Probably an eclectic mix of trutherism, UFOlogy, global warming and creationism.
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April 14, 2014 8:35pm
Judith

Talking about Full Moons and such,

There is meant to be a great display in the sky on 23-24 as the good lord puts on his own fireworks display, in the form of meteor showers that will be quite phenomenal – apparently. I just hope he doesn’t stuff up and also make it a cloudy drizzly night. 🙂
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April 14, 2014 8:38pm
Judith

@ mikenmild (8,666 comments) says:
April 14th, 2014 at 8:35 pm

Please can we have abortion, suicide and euthanasia, together with feminism, and the value of witchcraft – as well? Just this once it would be nice to have a decent variety – oh yeah, and there is the moon landings to (or were they?)
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April 14, 2014 8:40pm
wat dabney

“No truly rational person can look at DNA coding and come to any other rational conclusion than that it was designed.”

Frankly I suspect Zeus was drunk when he designed DNA.

‘The RARE List is comprised of approximately 7,000 different rare diseases and disorders affecting more than 300 million people worldwide.’

http://globalgenes.org/rarelist/
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April 14, 2014 8:44pm
Tauhei Notts

I find the ever decreasing knowledge of Christianity a bit sad.
This Friday I join a likeable bunch of bastards to play golf. We call the trophy, to be played on Friday 18th, the Pharisees’ Cup. So few players know the significance of the name.
They cannot comprehend that it is all a piss take.
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April 14, 2014 8:44pm
mikenmild

Don’t mention the moon landings – you’ll have Ugly along banging on about parallax again.
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April 14, 2014 8:45pm
Judith

@ mikenmild (8,667 comments) says:
April 14th, 2014 at 8:45 pm

Well, I’m not sure about parallax, but my suspicions are that ‘Ever Ready’ batteries had some thing to do with it. I remember everyone walking around for days with transistor radios stuck to their ears, waiting for the big event. We were even allowed to take them to school… and boy did those things chew through the batteries.

The reason why they’ve never proved it before, is that no one has bothered to explore the obvious! 😉
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April 14, 2014 8:57pm
wat dabney

ShawnLH,

You really should visit that site and read the personal stories of people – many of them just children – afflicted with terrible genetic disorders.

– My Daddy: His Life with Myelodysplasia Syndrome

– Baby Nora Battles Dandy-Walker Malformation

– Girl, Three, Diagnosed With Coat’s Disease After Facebook Photo Shared

– My Daddy: His Life with Myelodysplasia Syndrome

– Alice’s Unbreakable Spirit with Osteogenesis Imperfecta

– 22-Year-Old Natalia Diagnosed with Polymyositis

http://globalgenes.org/rarelist/

What does this tell a ‘truly rational person’ about the magic pixies who “designed” DNA?
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April 14, 2014 9:01pm
nasska

At last the truth can be told: 🙂

Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xsvuytj0ire7y25/Easter%201.jpg
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April 14, 2014 9:02pm
RF

Just watching Native affairs. What a left wing cess pit. The presenter is a real thicko.
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April 14, 2014 9:06pm
mikenmild

He’ll be relating to his audience then, won’t he?
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April 14, 2014 9:07pm
ShawnLH

Wat,

it says much about your “reason” that you use terms like “magic pixies.”

If you cannot even debate the issues honestly why should I give you any answers? Pretending to engage in a debate when your just trolling is not rational, it’s just the childishness of the average atheist on this blog.

If your interested in answers the answers are there. Find them yourself. But your not looking for answers, like naaska your just indulging in public masturbation.

Jerk off to someone else.
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April 14, 2014 9:08pm
mikenmild

What’s dishonest about magic pixies? Oh, that’s right, they’re mythological – just like gods.
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April 14, 2014 9:22pm
big bruv

“If your interested in answers the answers are there.”

Nothing like debating an issue with one who has an open mind. The answers are not there, they never have been. What you believe and demand that the rest of us believe is nothing more than stone aged superstition, it is superstition that cannot stand up to modern science.
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April 14, 2014 9:27pm
big bruv

“Both my wife and I trained as volunteer counsellors and Gestalt psychotherapists in the 90′s. I know the difference between genuine religious experience and schizophrenia.”

That statement Shawn can be nothing other than an outright lie.
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April 14, 2014 9:34pm
stigie

“I’m anticipating that tomorrow night’s GD will be especially lively. Probably an eclectic mix of trutherism, UFOlogy, global warming and creationism.”

AND SEX !
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April 14, 2014 9:35pm
cha

Don’t mention the moon landings –

Moon Landing! – all 100+ minutes.

http://www.firstmenonthemoon.com/
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April 14, 2014 9:44pm
mikenmild

Lots of sex; some of it heterosexual too.
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April 14, 2014 9:45pm
ShawnLH

Speaking of reason.

The Failure of Atheism to Account for Rationality.

“As a worldview, atheism is intellectually bankrupt and is wrought with philosophical problems. Let’s look at the inability for the atheistic worldview to account for rationality.

Now, I’ve already done a lot on this topic on the carm website and in videos. So I’m not going to get into this very deeply here. However, I can summarize by saying that atheism cannot account for rationality. You see, logic is based upon universal truth statements which we call the laws of logic. Such laws are, for example, the law of identity, the law of non-contradiction, and the law of excluded middle. These universal truth statements are what rational arguments are based upon. If these additional laws changed depending upon the situation, location, time, or an individual’s personal preferences, then there is no basis for rationality; and truth could not be known. Truth would then depend upon situations and personal opinions. If that were the case, then I could say that blue sleeps faster than Wednesday, and whatever I say is always true because I claim it.

But, this is not rational, and you and I both know that isn’t.

In the Christian worldview, the universal truth statements are derived from God. These universal truth statements–these laws of identity–are conceptual by nature. Why? Because they are statements. Statements require minds; and since logic is the process of the mind, the logical foundations upon which rationality depends are of the mind and are conceptual by nature. If the atheist were to say that logical processes are not of the mind or that the truth statements which are the foundations of logic are not of the mind, then he is being irrational. After all, truth is a statement which agrees with reality. And because truth is constructed in statements, a mind is required for such statements to be made.

Let me clarify. If a rock is all that exists in the universe, it is true that a rock is the only thing that exists. But saying that it is the only thing that exists is a statement which requires a mind. If there are no minds and the rock is all that exists, no statements can be made about the rock. It would not be known that it was the only thing existing. But truth statements are known. Therefore, all such truth statements require minds; and the universal, logical absolutes, truth statements that form the basis of rational thought require a mind to be made and known.

Atheism has no way of accounting for these universal truth statements. Atheists can try and state that the laws of logic are based upon human minds, but this cannot be because human minds are different and contradict each other as well as themselves. Since logical absolutes are universally true, they cannot be the product of human minds because human minds are limited, are not universally true, and often contradict each other. If the atheist wants to say that the logical absolutes are merely descriptions of behavior of the universe, then how would an atheist by observation determine the third law of logic, the law of excluded middle, which says that statements are either true or false? He couldn’t. If the atheist wants to say that logical absolutes are the result of chemical processes in the brain, that can’t work because it would mean that logic could be altered by brain chemistry. Some atheists say that logic is a product of human language, but that doesn’t work because languages are subjective and culturally variable where logic is not. If the atheist says that logic is a property of the universe like motion and gravity, the problem here is that you cannot measure the laws of logic where such things like weight, mass, heat, and cold can be measured.

So, atheists repeatedly try to respond to the issue of trying to account for rationality founded in universal truth statements also known as logical absolutes. But in all their trying and all their attempted logical outcry, they fail. Why? Because atheism doesn’t have the substance to account for rationality. It is deficient as a worldview.

But, Christianity comes to the rescue and states that the universal truth statements reflect the universal mind. We, as God’s creation, are able to recognize them because we are made in God’s image. Where Christianity provides an answer to this important issue, atheism clearly fails to deliver.”

http://carm.org/failure-atheism-account-rationality
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April 14, 2014 9:55pm
Nostalgia-NZ

Anybody got any ideas about turning this into a political blog, silly idea I know.
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April 14, 2014 10:11pm
jcuk

Sorry Nostalgia I put a negative tick when I meant a positive 🙁
Bring back DPF from his tramping masochism …..
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April 14, 2014 10:19pm
stigie

“Lots of sex; some of it heterosexual too.”

Nope, it will be 100% gay sex !~
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April 14, 2014 10:20pm
OneTrack

mike – “Full moon tomorrow, nasska”

Lunar eclipse tomorrow too (total eclipse in Australia).
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April 14, 2014 10:28pm
ShawnLH

“That statement Shawn can be nothing other than an outright lie.”

No BB, it’s not. Sad to burst your bubble of prejudice.
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April 14, 2014 11:36pm
ShawnLH

“What you believe and demand that the rest of us believe”

I’m not. I’m simply challenging the atheists to engage in real, serious, and civil debate. So far they are unwilling.

Gee, I wonder why?
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April 14, 2014 11:38pm
RichardX

ShawnLH (1,722 comments) says:
April 14th, 2014 at 9:55 pm
Let me clarify. If a rock is all that exists in the universe, it is true that a rock is the only thing that exists. But saying that it is the only thing that exists is a statement which requires a mind. If there are no minds and the rock is all that exists, no statements can be made about the rock. It would not be known that it was the only thing existing.

If you construct a hypothetical world in which a rock is all that exists, then by definition a rock is all that exists in this hypothetical world. If this hypothetical world were real, no mind would be able to address the question because there would be no mind. The rest is just a subset of Slick’s transcendental argument for the existence of god and has the same flaws.
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April 15, 2014 12:00am
ciaron

What about Leibniz’s Argument?
Anyone got a defeater for that?
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April 15, 2014 6:56am
SGA

@cairon
I think DPF banned David Hume for six weeks for repeated bad language. Perhaps he’ll post when the ban is lifted.
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April 15, 2014 7:38am
Psycho Milt

What about Leibniz’s Argument?
Anyone got a defeater for that?

You mean, the one that goes: something doesn’t come from nothing, therefore God done it? It’s actually a non sequitur, not an argument.

It has a surface plausibility to it, in that if we don’t know what caused something we can create a placeholder for that unknown cause (we could call it ‘wibble,’ for instance) and whenever we have to refer to that unknown cause, we can say wibble and people will take that as shorthand for the otherwise lengthy description. It has an element of convenience about it, but what we most definitely haven’t done by naming this unknown cause ‘wibble’ is explained something.
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April 15, 2014 8:12am
ciaron

You mean, the one that goes: something doesn’t come from nothing, therefore God done it? It’s actually a non sequitur, not an argument.

That’s an awesome strawman Milt, but you knew that… didn’t you.
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April 15, 2014 9:05am
Ryan Sproull

“As a worldview, atheism is intellectually bankrupt and is wrought with philosophical problems. Let’s look at the inability for the atheistic worldview to account for rationality.

Now, I’ve already done a lot on this topic on the carm website and in videos. So I’m not going to get into this very deeply here. However, I can summarize by saying that atheism cannot account for rationality. You see, logic is based upon universal truth statements which we call the laws of logic. Such laws are, for example, the law of identity, the law of non-contradiction, and the law of excluded middle. These universal truth statements are what rational arguments are based upon. If these additional laws changed depending upon the situation, location, time, or an individual’s personal preferences, then there is no basis for rationality; and truth could not be known. Truth would then depend upon situations and personal opinions. If that were the case, then I could say that blue sleeps faster than Wednesday, and whatever I say is always true because I claim it.

But, this is not rational, and you and I both know that isn’t.

In the Christian worldview, the universal truth statements are derived from God. These universal truth statements–these laws of identity–are conceptual by nature. Why? Because they are statements. Statements require minds; and since logic is the process of the mind, the logical foundations upon which rationality depends are of the mind and are conceptual by nature. If the atheist were to say that logical processes are not of the mind or that the truth statements which are the foundations of logic are not of the mind, then he is being irrational. After all, truth is a statement which agrees with reality. And because truth is constructed in statements, a mind is required for such statements to be made.

Let me clarify. If a rock is all that exists in the universe, it is true that a rock is the only thing that exists. But saying that it is the only thing that exists is a statement which requires a mind. If there are no minds and the rock is all that exists, no statements can be made about the rock. It would not be known that it was the only thing existing. But truth statements are known. Therefore, all such truth statements require minds; and the universal, logical absolutes, truth statements that form the basis of rational thought require a mind to be made and known.

Atheism has no way of accounting for these universal truth statements. Atheists can try and state that the laws of logic are based upon human minds, but this cannot be because human minds are different and contradict each other as well as themselves. Since logical absolutes are universally true, they cannot be the product of human minds because human minds are limited, are not universally true, and often contradict each other. If the atheist wants to say that the logical absolutes are merely descriptions of behavior of the universe, then how would an atheist by observation determine the third law of logic, the law of excluded middle, which says that statements are either true or false? He couldn’t. If the atheist wants to say that logical absolutes are the result of chemical processes in the brain, that can’t work because it would mean that logic could be altered by brain chemistry. Some atheists say that logic is a product of human language, but that doesn’t work because languages are subjective and culturally variable where logic is not. If the atheist says that logic is a property of the universe like motion and gravity, the problem here is that you cannot measure the laws of logic where such things like weight, mass, heat, and cold can be measured.

So, atheists repeatedly try to respond to the issue of trying to account for rationality founded in universal truth statements also known as logical absolutes. But in all their trying and all their attempted logical outcry, they fail. Why? Because atheism doesn’t have the substance to account for rationality. It is deficient as a worldview.

But, Christianity comes to the rescue and states that the universal truth statements reflect the universal mind. We, as God’s creation, are able to recognize them because we are made in God’s image. Where Christianity provides an answer to this important issue, atheism clearly fails to deliver.”

“Logic can’t prove logic, therefore God”? Just a fallacious argument from ignorance. Might as well say, “Logic can’t prove logic, but if we’re all in the Matrix, the Matrix provides logic, so people who don’t believe in the Matrix have deficient worldviews.”
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April 15, 2014 12:32pm

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