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March 19, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 19 March 2014

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JMS

Russia hasn’t bombed anyone and isn’t bombing anyone anywhere in this world of tears.

LOL

Chechnya, forgotten that one already have you Andrei?

If the Ukrainians were resisting militarily, and the West didn’t pledge to help them, Putin would be bombing them as well.
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March 19, 2014 11:29am
stephieboy

kowtow (6,550 comments) says:
March 19th, 2014 at 11:03 am

“Slick Willy murdered Serbians to distract the public from the lewinsky affair.As disgusting an example of the modern progressive politician as you’ll ever get.”

That is a bare faced lie.! There is no evidence of massacres or murders of Serbian civilians by US or NAT forces. Naturally GWB’s, Rumsfield’s and Cheyney’s etc invasion of Iraq is not a disgusting example of Conservative modern politics.?
Naturally again the massacre of Muslim civilians ,or Croatian Catholics for that matter is justified.?
Andrei, not bombed anyone in this world of Tears,?? Chechnya.? Basher al Assad.?
Poland next.?
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March 19, 2014 11:31am
dirty harry

@igm..yes I read about his slippery past..both personal and business. You never hear from the man. As opposition spokeman on finance he should be right up Bill English’s arse every time he opens his mouth , but you hear nothing. Me thinks he well out of his depth.
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March 19, 2014 11:31am
David Garrett

wiki: Most amusing…but then my late father always seemed to have a “Lodge meeting” after he had been duckshooting…

Oh dear dear Griff…now you go and spoil it…
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March 19, 2014 11:32am
tom hunter

… and a significant number of the new unelected deputies are in fact fascists.

Given the history of the Ukraine it would hardly be a surprise if there are fascists present, and that some are now “unelected deputies”. But I would love to know what the exact number is so I can judge for myself whether it is “significant” (10%, 20%?)

And of course condemning Ukrainians for cozying up to the Nazis in WWII to fight Stalin really does not hold much accusatory water in light of Stalin himself cozying up to the facists earlier for equally pragmatic reasons.

Finally there is the fact that Russia itself has an extraordinary number of fascists, many of whom are quite prominent:

The roots of Eurasianism go back to czarist émigrés interacting with fascist thinkers in between-the-wars France and Germany. But in recent years, its primary exponent has been the very prominent and prolific political theorist Aleksandr Dugin.
…
Dugin ran for the Duma on the NBP ticket in 1995, but got only 1 percent of the vote. So, switching tactics, he abandoned the effort to build his own splinter party and instead adopted the more productive strategy of becoming the idea man for all the bigger parties, including Putin’s United Russia, Ziuganov’s CPRF, and Vladimir Zhirinovsky’s ultranationalist Liberal Democratic Party of Russia. In this role he has succeeded brilliantly.

Indeed, his ideas even influence people far from Russia:

The core idea of Dugin’s Eurasianism is that “liberalism” (by which is meant the entire Western consensus) represents an assault on the traditional hierarchical organization of the world. Repeating the ideas of Nazi theorists Karl Haushofer, Rudolf Hess, Carl Schmitt, and Arthur Moeller van der Bruck, Dugin says that this liberal threat is not new, but is the ideology of the maritime cosmopolitan power “Atlantis,” which has conspired to subvert more conservative land-based societies since ancient times.
…
He would adopt Communism’s opposition to free enterprise. However, he would drop the Marxist commitment to technological progress, a liberal-derived ideal, in favor of Ecologism’s demagogic appeal to stop the advance of industry and modernity. From Traditionalism, he derives a justification for stopping free thought. All the rest is straight out of Nazism, ranging from legal theories justifying unlimited state power and the elimination of individual rights, to the need for populations “rooted” in the soil, to weird gnostic ideas about the secret origin of the Aryan race in the North Pole.

It does not get more Fascist than that, and Putin is following that playbook in word and deed.
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March 19, 2014 11:32am
Ed Snack

Tom, that nosewheel fire theory has too many holes in it for my liking. To espouse it you have to toss out the course data gleaned from Malaysian military radar as corroborated by satellite pings (and recently by Thai military and initially by Vietnamese military); that showed the aircraft navigating a deliberate course across to the West Coast away from the nearest suitable airfield (probably Ho Chi Minh City). We’re also told that there is evidence that the systems (transponder and ACARS) were turned off in a deliberate fashion (logged out for ACARS) rather than electrically isolated; also the SATCOM system remained active, and VHF was supposedly on at 1:30 am.

It’s not impossible, just about nothing is, but he’s grasping at straws to find a “simple” explanation as a combination of highly unlikely events as opposed to an obvious and simple explanation (pilot hijacking) that has rather defies our understanding of WHY.

It should be noted that the T7 has fairly sophisticated fault detecting systems, an under inflated/flat nose wheel should generate an ACARS message at take-off, as should a fire before it burns through anything as significant as half the nose internal structure to get to the avionics bay under the cockpit. But it comes back to if the aircraft could be flown so carefully under control why was not attempt made to reduce altitude for a start, then attempt to communicate by some method. We know the SATCOM system was operational.
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March 19, 2014 11:32am
Weihana

Andrei (2,351 comments) says:
March 19th, 2014 at 11:21 am

…thats why he is running rings around Obama as we speak.

Obama is the principal reason many conservatives love Putin.
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March 19, 2014 11:33am
ShawnLH

Tom,

spot on. The influence of Dugin on the Kremlin makes any arguments about fascists in the Ukraine remarkably hypocritical.
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March 19, 2014 11:35am
Fletch

So many theories about the Malaysian flight…
Who knows?

At this point, even the plot of TinTin and the Flight 714 would be as plausible…
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March 19, 2014 11:36am
igm

dirty harry: David Parker’s personal past is vile, and is not worth repeating on this site. He is typical of the rodents that festoon Labour Party ranks. I don’t think he qualifies for rainbow room attentions . . . yet! He sits in the House along with the effeminate Lees-Galloway exposing supercilious grins on their faces when Cunliffe is trying to gain traction at Q and A. He is a woofter.
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March 19, 2014 11:36am
Fletch

It looks like Thailand had some knowledge of where the plane was earlier on, but didn’t share…
Actually, a bit mean.

BANGKOK (AP) — Thailand’s military said Tuesday that its radar detected a plane that may have been Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 just minutes after the jetliner’s communications went down, and that it didn’t share the information with Malaysia earlier because it wasn’t specifically asked for it.

When asked why it took so long to release the information, Montol said, “Because we did not pay any attention to it. The Royal Thai Air Force only looks after any threats against our country, so anything that did not look like a threat to us, we simply look at it without taking actions.”

He said the plane never entered Thai airspace and that Malaysia’s initial request for information in the early days of the search was not specific.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/malaysia-airlines-missing-jet-thailand-gives-radar-data-10-days-after-plane-lost-20140319-hvk7i.html
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March 19, 2014 11:38am
ShawnLH

“Obama is the principal reason many conservatives love Putin.”

Yes, and as a conservative I find it disgusting and embarrassing. I oppose many of Obama’s policies fiercely, but opposing Obama is no excuse for supporting “anyone but”.

Some “conservatives” are no better than those on the Left who suffered from Bush Derangement Syndrome.
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March 19, 2014 11:39am
stephieboy

Shawn, classic . Bush Derangement Syndrome.!
Lets see who possibly suffer acutely from it.?
Lets see- kowtow, manolo…. etc ??
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March 19, 2014 11:44am
Fletch

I see that Michelle Obama and her daughters are off on yet another vacation – this time to China.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/03/17/michelle-obama-and-family-take-another-taxpayer-funded-trip/#ixzz2wHY3Dbrp
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March 19, 2014 11:50am
Weihana

tom hunter (3,888 comments) says:
March 19th, 2014 at 11:04 am

It is all speculation I agree. But the theory I outlined points out that the fire would have been churning away in the nose wheel well for some time and just happened to hit the electrical systems a minute or so after they sign off with MATC: they pull the circuit breakers to try and quell the fire – killing the transponder and ACARS – and after that they’re too damned busy following the aviate, navigate, communicate rule to call out a Mayday, and by the time they might be able to do so they’re either incapacitated and/or the comms system has been fried as well.

How does one have a fire so severe that it incapacitates the flight crew but then existinguishes itself and allows the plane to fly for hours afterwards?
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March 19, 2014 11:52am
tom hunter

Tom, that nosewheel fire theory has too many holes in it for my liking.

Fair enough, though I do wonder if the combination of military radar and pings detected by non-geostationary satellites can really produce as accurate a record of the planes flightpath as we’ve been told? I’m also curious as to how one would tell from the outside whether a system like ACARS had been shut down deliberately or simply had its power circuit breakers pulled? I assume there would be an internal log that could tell the difference, as with any computerised system, but for an outside observer?

The pilot hijack theory had been my primary candiadte for days, but you would think that something about the “WHY” would have shown up by now in the backgrounds of either pilot? Perhaps it’s just the Malaysian security people being either incompetent or close-mouthed?

How does one have a fire so severe …

Smoke rather than fire is the incapacitating factor and certain types of fire can smoulder for a long time without becoming a raging inferno.
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March 19, 2014 11:52am
Ed Snack

Fletch, that we should be so lucky as a “Flight 714” scenario !

If nothing is found at all in the Australian search in the South, the aircraft may never be found. Every day is scattering any wreckage further and it’s damn deep down there.

I find it just vaguely interesting that the projected search area is almost equidistant from all the bits of land in the (very) general area, SW Australia, Heard Island, Marion Island, and Kerguelen. I think Kerguelen has a reasonable airfield and of course there are airfields in Perth and Albany at least, but the other two are a bit small.
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March 19, 2014 11:52am
cha

And the referendum observers, oh dear.

http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.co.nz/2014/03/pro-russian-extremists-observe.html
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March 19, 2014 11:53am
stephieboy

Fletch, I think I know where your Daily Caller is coming from re Michelle’s visit to China,

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/22/lord-monckton-im-no-birther-but-obama-birth-certificate-plainly-a-forgery/

Note in reality its not Lord Monckton but should read Christopher or maybe more perceptively ,clown.!

BTW His”Lordship” is not and never has been a member of the House of Lords,

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/jul/18/climate-monckton-member-house-lords
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March 19, 2014 11:57am
Lucia Maria

More on the turnout for the vote in Crimea:

123% of Sevastopol voted for a merger with Russia

The article is translated from Russian, so I can’t really verify myself as to how accurate it is. But it doesn’t look like that interpretation is wrong, given that numbers are shown:

“At the end of last year, the population was 385,462 Sebastopol man. This tailored to the children who did not have the right to vote. 474,137 – 385,462 = 88,675 people accidentally appeared in Sevastopol during the referendum. 474 137/385 462 * 100 = 123% of Sevastopol voted for entry into Russia … I mean, come all – and infants, schoolchildren, and I suspect that the dead “- said teh-nomad.

It is likely the same “error” can be extended to a whole Crimea.

I reckon those international observers weren’t doing their jobs properly.
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March 19, 2014 11:58am
griffith

Group think.

David.

It not particularly intelligent or wise on my present subject of choice.

AGW is not of left or right.

It is one that we should follow the advice of science on.
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March 19, 2014 12:00pm
mikenmild

Lucia
I think the international observers were probably doing exactly the job they were recruited for – providing a fig leaf.
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March 19, 2014 12:01pm
cha

Ukraine press translated.

http://maidantranslations.com/category/voices-of-revolution/
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March 19, 2014 12:06pm
David Garrett

Griff: I am far more worried about the post antibiotic world, which is definitely almost upon us, and which will have far more marked effects – like death – than possible AGW…about which we down in our little Kingdom can do absolutely nothing…

(Not sure we can do anything about the fading effects of anti-biotics either, but it’s a far more sensible thing to worry about)
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March 19, 2014 12:09pm
UglyTruth

So many theories about the Malaysian flight…
Who knows?

Another way of looking at the problem is to look at all the available evidence and then look at the reactions to the evidence.

For example:
1. Mayalsia initially reported that flight 370 had flown off-course, but later retracted this.
2. The failure of the MSM to address to question of why the plane disappeared from civilian radar and yet was visible on military radar.
3. The failure of the MSM to address the issue of Boeing’s uninterruptible autopilot as a possible hijack mechanism.
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March 19, 2014 12:11pm
SPC

The parallel between the break up of Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union is obvious.

In both cases the reaction is a greater Serbia or greater Russian nationalism, whereby the existence of Serbs or Russians beyond borders is used as an excuse to interfere in the politics of the former republics of Yugoslavia and Soviet Union.

In each case armed Serbs and armed Russians emerge, apparently unrelated to the Serbian or Russian military, apart from the arms and training.

The difference is that Russia has nukes and cannot be bombed, thus feels it can get away with it.

The question for the rest of the world is do new states have collective security rights? And do nation states once recognised – have the right to determine whether elections on secession are held, rather than a neighbouring state that occupies its territory and holds an election under occupation?
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March 19, 2014 12:13pm
sbk

geez Griff…it must really fuck you off….me and my V8’s….sbk(and others) doing his bit to keep the world from cooling …yeah baby…just bought another badly tuned monster…just for the fumes…spewing tons of precious co2( there goes any saving in temperature the tax may have brought about…bugger)

and what is Griff doing….sitting on his arse visiting KB preaching to the unbelievers(yep… that will make a world of difference …as evidenced by world-wide belief in the Global warming scam plummeting faster than the temperature)…about time you got off your arse son and got more pro-active.. not reactive, ala sbk,”creating co2 since the early sixties…and loving it.”
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March 19, 2014 12:13pm
OneTrack

“AGW is not of left or right.”

And what should we do about AGW.

I know, lets:

impose some more taxes – lefty check
impose some more regulations – lefty check
restrictions on what people are allowed to do – left check
centralise all government control to the United Nations – lefty check
threaten deniers with jail ( or worse 10:10? ) for their heretical statements – lefty check

It’s hard left all right.
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March 19, 2014 12:18pm
SPC

tom, the incapacity of the pilots theory – has to account for the climb (to starve the fire of oxygen or the passengers or to avoid radar) and then decline and levelling off before continuing to fly until fuel ran out.
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March 19, 2014 12:18pm
Sir Cullen's Sidekick

Cunliffe’s forestry policy is a great winner folks…..
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March 19, 2014 12:19pm
cha

Rumbles in Moldova and the Balkans.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26627236

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/03/18/uk-ukraine-crisis-bosniaherzegovina-idUKBREA2H1MP20140318
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March 19, 2014 12:23pm
tom hunter

… has to account for the climb …

Depends on how quickly they were incapacitated. But in any case, from the article I linked to:

As for the reports of altitude fluctuations, given that this was not transponder-generated data but primary radar at maybe 200 miles, the azimuth readings can be affected by a lot of atmospherics and I would not have high confidence in this being totally reliable.

But let’s accept for a minute that the pilot may have ascended to 45,000 feet in a last-ditch effort to quell a fire by seeking the lowest level of oxygen. That is an acceptable scenario. At 45,000 feet, it would be tough to keep this aircraft stable, as the flight envelope is very narrow and loss of control in a stall is entirely possible. The aircraft is at the top of its operational ceiling. The reported rapid rates of descent could have been generated by a stall, followed by a recovery at 25,000 feet. The pilot may even have been diving to extinguish flames
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March 19, 2014 12:23pm
SPC

One Track, is every global problem that requires co-operation to resolve a left wing conspiracy?

Are the trade rules of the global market, such as corporate property rights, a right wing conspiracy?
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March 19, 2014 12:25pm
JMS

The difference is that Russia has nukes and cannot be bombed, thus feels it can get away with it.

The West wouldn’t even need to bomb Russia.

Comprehensive sanctions, blanket denial of visas, freezing of assets, stopping all EU-Russia commercial flights.

It would certainly also hurt the EU, but Russia would be on its knees.
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March 19, 2014 12:26pm
griffith

I stopped using antibiotics when I first found out about the problem years ago.

Prophylactic use as a matter of course should be discontinued/discouraged for livestock as well as humans.
The modern rage for obsessive disinfecting will have the same result. Along with over protecting leaving your immune system deficient when infection does set it.

As time continues the chances of an infection causing a widespread decline in population is increases. It is a when not if.
Modern transport has the potential to infect most the world’s population before we can respond.
The medical profession is not only armed with antibiotic we have made huge leaps in restorative care.

FFS if you are prescribed antibiotics take the whole course.
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March 19, 2014 12:26pm
RichardX

UglyTruth (2,354 comments) says:
March 19th, 2014 at 12:11 pm
The failure of the MSM to address to question of why the plane disappeared from civilian radar and yet was visible on military radar.

Complete ignorance shown of the difference between civilian radar which relies on interrogating a transponder to track aircraft and military radar which relies on reflection from the aircraft itself
If a transponder stops functioning, the aircraft disappears from civilian radar
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March 19, 2014 12:27pm
Ryan Sproull

Complete ignorance shown of the difference between civilian radar which relies on interrogating a transponder to track aircraft and military radar which relies on reflection from the aircraft itself If a transponder stops functioning, the aircraft disappears from civilian radar

Richard, I am certain there was a more polite way to provide that explanation.
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March 19, 2014 12:28pm
RichardX

Ryan Sproull (6,385 comments) says:
March 19th, 2014 at 12:28 pm
Richard, I am certain there was a more polite way to provide that explanation.

You are quite correct Ryan, but I get frustrated by conspiracy theorists who misconstrue known facts to support their theories. Most theories are so nebulous that it is not worth arguing but obviously falsifiable statements need challenging
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March 19, 2014 12:33pm
mikenmild

This article provides some more doubts about the fire theory:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/03/18/mh370_disappearance_chris_goodfellow_s_theory_about_a_fire_and_langkawi.html
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March 19, 2014 12:33pm
SPC

EAD, you say Putin looks out for his people. So you do not think his people deserve a free media or a pluralistic society?

You support a national leader who identifies his people as Russians and is one leader for this people and would expand his authority to wherever his people live and in return his people owe their one leader a certain loyalty in return.

You admire lebensraum as a national policy – a strong leader for a strong people – and also believe in a strong hard gold currency. You love anything powerful that people are to respect the authority of.

Andrei is just proud to be Russian and loyal to Russia now that it has a strong leader.
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March 19, 2014 12:37pm
griffith

ONe track the right will not come up with any alternatives if it keeps denying the problem.

Give us right-wing solutions then.

We have had carbon trading. 😆 gutted to be worthless.

A market device to pay for the damage CO2 emissions do to the commons.

We have viable and rapidly becoming cost competitive solutions to many of the technical difficultys in reducing our CO2 emitting.

Unfortunately we have more interest in the legacy industrys of oil and coal than looking into the future.
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March 19, 2014 12:38pm
cha

So a courageous whistle blower finds refuge in Putin’s Russia….

http://tomnichols.net/blog/2012/02/21/a-what-if-of-the-cold-war-operation-bourbon/
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March 19, 2014 12:39pm
griffith

spc Music

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UODi4czATJw
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March 19, 2014 12:46pm
griffith

Edit spk
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March 19, 2014 12:49pm
kowtow

JMS

Churchill , a man i hold in very high regard, was himself very fond of spheres of influence.He was quite impressed by Stalins respect for sticking to the agreement over post war Greece ie it was in the British sphere.

Much is being made of democratic principles here ,lets face it when have any of the great statesmen ever respected the rights of people to determine their own futures when it didn’t suit those leaders.

Was there a referendum on the borders of post war germany? No,and 10 million Germans were displaced and possibly 1 million died as a result.

That’s a war crime.

Mind you if Germany wanted to reclaim East Prussia from the Russians I think they have an excellent moral case .
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March 19, 2014 12:58pm
Reid

Rook to G7, check.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-17/russia-hints-it-may-force-ukraine-default-may-ask-ukraine-its-20-billion-share-ex-so

No,and 10 million Germans were displaced and possibly 1 million died as a result.

That’s a war crime.

Yes it was and more than that died but we don’t teach our children about that because apparently, we’re the good guys who never ever ever do stuff like that.

Read Hellstorm: http://cienciologia.wordpress.com/category/hellstorm/
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March 19, 2014 1:00pm
stephieboy

SPC, good point and I marvel how those both on the far right and left admire the attraction of policeman like leaders.Stalin casts a long shadow over the Russian and aforementioned psyches.
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March 19, 2014 1:01pm
Duxton

What will Grant Robertson do when Judith Collins bites back?

a. Play the ‘gay card’ (like that other mincing cringer, Cliff Carter).

b. Accuse her of over-reacting.

c. Both a and b.
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March 19, 2014 1:03pm
SPC

One of the ironies of being a critic of the USA in its global policy is having to distance oneself from other critics because they are so unreasonable.

The USA is not responsible for what Iraq does with its democracy. What happens in nations after tyrants get removed is down to them (Libya etc). What happened to personal/national responsibility?

It is not wrong to champion democracy and national self determination.
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March 19, 2014 1:06pm
goldnkiwi

tom hunter (3,886 comments) says:

March 19th, 2014 at 10:26 am

I wonder what said pilots comment would be regarding a flight simulator at the captains house with practice alternative runways programmed in. Would all captains have one of those at home?
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March 19, 2014 1:18pm
stephieboy

kowtow, your view of Churchill is rather simplistic which is no surprise. Churchill after all coined the term the Iron Curtain to describe the USSR’s control and dominance in Eastern Europe that coloured views by both sides with International relations. A view that became the source of much of the misunderstanding and tensions between East and West during the Cold War.
There is no evidence that millions of German Civilians were systematically murdered by the WW2 allies.
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March 19, 2014 1:21pm
mikenmild

stephieboy
Did you enjoy Reid’s link to antisemitic propaganda?
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March 19, 2014 1:23pm
Weihana

RichardX (240 comments) says:
March 19th, 2014 at 12:27 pm

Complete ignorance shown of the difference between civilian radar which relies on interrogating a transponder to track aircraft and military radar which relies on reflection from the aircraft itself
If a transponder stops functioning, the aircraft disappears from civilian radar

Not to detract from your point, which I agree with, but in the interests of pedantry civilian air traffic control has both primary (reflected radio waves) and secondary radar (transponder interrogation), but primary radar has a shorter range and is generally used for the purposes of protecting a control zone in the vicinity of an aerodrome. So, for instance, Auckland, Wellington and Christhchurch have primary radar capabilities, but if you tracked from New Plymouth to, say, Gisborne, you wouldn’t be picked up without a transponder operating because you’re outside the theoretical coverage area.
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March 19, 2014 1:30pm
kowtow

Obama’s White House is now arming an Iraqi shia regime,democratically elected yes, that wants to impose sharia law in what was once a secular Arab country ,very flawed but secular.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/03/us-delivers-100-hellfire-missiles-iraq-2014316164846772760.html

The same White house is trying to overthrow a secular Syria ,deeply flawed,yes but what will take its place? an even worse regime of sunni fundamentalists.
The conflict in Syria has resulted in huge displacement of the population, death disease etc.Any pollitician taking part in the attempt to oust Assad by violence is complicit in this humanitarian disaster.

I include Obama,Hollande and Cameron. Not to mention the gulf States who are actually behind the whole stinking mess.

Do I support Assad ? No. But we have no business there.
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March 19, 2014 1:30pm
Reid

It is not wrong to champion democracy and national self determination.

It wouldn’t be wrong if that’s what they really did but they don’t. They say that’s what they do and the western MSM parrots the line and the western useful idiots breath in the hallucination and then when the news cycle moves on and the country disappears from western consciousness the true nature of the satrap installs reveals itself and it’s quite clear the US doesn’t give a damn how nasty they are. You see this repeated time and time and time again. You also see the blowback being repeated after their satrap exposes their utter depravity which they had all the time and turns on them.

[Roosevelt’s] Secretary of State, Sumner Welles, once said [Nigerian dictator] “Somoza’s a bastard!” And Roosevelt replied, “Yes, but he’s our bastard.”

That’s been the policy of the US since WWII. The CIA is not an intelligence agency it’s a regime-change agency and has been ever since it emerged from the OSS. Have a look at what Libya’s become, as the most recent example.

Believing the democracy line really flies in the face of all historical evidence to the contrary.
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March 19, 2014 1:31pm
wikiriwhis business

“There is no evidence that millions of German Civilians were systematically murdered by the WW2 allies.”

Out of context
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March 19, 2014 1:32pm
griffith

stephieboy

Google

The political compass nz

many different interpretation due to the perspective of the presenter 😆

The concept is simplistic but valid.
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March 19, 2014 1:36pm
kowtow

stephie

I considr you a troll as you make stuff up.

I did not say the allies murdered millions of civilians,I said millions were displaced and one million died( hunger,cold disease)

Displacing whole populations is a war crime.

Evidence?

Largely committed by the Soviets and their communist proxies behind the Iron Curtain against a defeated population. Who’s going to investigate or even care?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/a-time-of-retribution-paying-with-life-and-limb-for-the-crimes-of-nazi-germany-a-759737.html
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March 19, 2014 1:39pm
stephieboy

Reid , pray inform us how the democracy you appear to have a sneering regard for restricts your ability to disseminate your views on a a host of matters relevant to the issues you and others raise here and elsewhere.

On another matter is the persistent false claim of yours that Eisenhower was responsible for the murder of thousands and thousands of German POW’s. The absurd claim originates in a book by Canadian Journalist James Bacque with his book,”Other Losses.” His book comes under critical focus in this review here,

http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/11/22/specials/ambrose-atrocities.html

Note “Other Losses.” has become popular tome among Conspiracy Theorists including ,often ,Neo Nazi based Holocaust deniers.
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March 19, 2014 1:41pm
thedavincimode

Are we all playing nicely today?
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March 19, 2014 1:43pm
Weihana

goldnkiwi (628 comments) says:
March 19th, 2014 at 1:18 pm

I wonder what said pilots comment would be regarding a flight simulator at the captains house with practice alternative runways programmed in. Would all captains have one of those at home?

This is not the least bit remarkable.
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March 19, 2014 1:49pm
griffith

A prudent skipper.
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March 19, 2014 2:00pm
wikiriwhis business

Army corrects medal prejudice

Twenty-four ethnic or minority US soldiers who performed bravely under fire in three of the nation’s wars have each received a Medal of Honor the government concluded should have been awarded a long time ago.

The servicemen – Hispanics, Jews and African-Americans – were identified following a congressionally mandated review to ensure that eligible recipients of the country’s highest recognition for valour were not bypassed due to prejudice. Only three of the 24 were alive Tuesday (NZT Wednesday) for President Barack Obama to drape the medals and ribbons around their necks.

”Today we have the chance to set the record straight,” Obama said.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/9844754/Army-corrects-medal-prejudice

This confirms how many Maori from WW2 were ignored for honours by the Brits because it was felt Maori’s would receive too many. Far as I know only one Maori received a VC. Hardly a threat. The RAF even had an elitist squadron that would not accept lower classes no matter how many medals they had been awarded.
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March 19, 2014 2:02pm
stephieboy

Kowtow, the issue of the expulsion of Germans from occupied Poland towards the end and after WW2 are dealt with below. Do remember the several million Poles and Polish Jews who were murdered or enslaved as a result of the Nazi invasion and occupation.
The displacement of the German Population pales in comparison to what the Poles and Jews suffered and doubt, with that context,could your remotely describe the German Displacement as a war crime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_from_Poland_during_and_after_World_War_II

and,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_the_Polish_nation
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March 19, 2014 2:05pm
kowtow

“Occupied Poland”

No, no, no,redrawn Poland.A few pen strokes.And millions displaced.Poland was shuffled west.So now it’s occupied Germany.
Was there a referendum?Involving the Poles,Germans or Russians.The people who actually lived in the affected areas.

Nope ,3 or 4 men round a table.

Democratic?
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March 19, 2014 2:13pm
griffith

conservative song list.

OKIE FROM MUSKOGEE

Championing short back and sides haircuts and unswerving patriotism
THE GREEN BERETS

Pro Vietnam War song
STAND BY YOUR MAN

The traditional role of the dutiful wife
THE WORLD NEEDS A FEW MORE REDNECKS

Redneck priced from the Charlie Daniels Band
GOD BLESS THE USA

Staunch patriotism from Lee Greenwood
LAND OF HOPE AND GLORY

Celebrating the power and glory of the British Empire
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March 19, 2014 2:15pm
Reid

As some of us have told the useful idiots many times before, money is created out of thin air. The useful idiots of course have chosen not to believe us calling it a conspiwacy theowy. Well, would said useful idiots believe the Bank of England? Of course not, that would hurt their tummies far, far too much. But unfortunately for said tummies, the Bank of England has just admitted precisely that.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/18/truth-money-iou-bank-of-england-austerity

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/quarterlybulletin/2014/qb14q102.pdf

Here’s a short overview on how it works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f9aJRQyDyg

And here’s a longer more detailed one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDe5kUUyT0

But hey, don’t take my word for it, take the Bank of England’s. And sorry about the sore tummy.

And BTW, on the subject of revolutions, ask yourself why the very first act of the new govt in Libya before the bullets even stopped flying was guess what? That’s right, to setup a Central Reserve Bank. And guess which countries in the world don’t use this system? ~~Iraq~~, Iran, North Korea, ~~Libya~~, Cuba.
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March 19, 2014 2:18pm
Albert_Ross

Griffith actually has a good point – the political right has not done itself or its credibility any favours in its response to climate change, ie denying the science. Saying “No amount of evidence will ever convince me that climate change is really happening” simply shows you to be impervious to fact and reason, which is not a good look.

The question of whether climate change is happening is not a left-right issue, it is a scientific issue. However, the question of what, if anything, to do about it /is/ a left-right issue, one which the right’s focus on denying the science has allowed the left completely to dominate. The right have thus manoeuvred themselves into a position where they either have to proclaim themselves impervious to fact and reason, or to accept that there may – even if only in theory – be such a thing as a circumstance in which a lefty approach is the only answer.

If you don’t believe that there could be such a circumstance, you must therefore believe that there are alternative, non-lefty ways of addressing the issue of climate change. Where is that discussion?
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March 19, 2014 2:19pm
JMS

The displacement of the German Population pales in comparison to what the Poles and Jews suffered and doubt, with that context,could your remotely describe the German Displacement as a war crime.

No Stephieboy, it doesn’t pale in comparison.

The Germans engaged is mass killing.
The Red Army engaged in mass rape and mutilation.
Both engaged in mass slavery and mass ethnic cleansing.

The crimes were different in nature, but quite close in terms of brutality.
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March 19, 2014 2:26pm
wreck1080

@seanmaitland::

When I say ‘record’ , I mean a post-float record.

I don’t think we can accurately compare pre-float exchange rates against post float rates as the pricing basis is completely different.

Although, the pre-float rate is interesting , so thanks..
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March 19, 2014 2:35pm
kowtow

griffith

I for one think the power and glory of the British Empire is something to celebrate.
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March 19, 2014 2:35pm
griffith

It is taken control of by those manipulating the politic for personal gain.
Hence it is evil of the greens to stop oil drilling
Instead of a more sensible approach
Why invest in an obvious legacy industry when forward is towards a low co2 emitting future, by the time any exploration gets to commercial flow it will be an obsolete waste of money.
We continue to build 50y infrastructure inside expected safe tidal range.
We know water will become more scarce in some regions look at buffering for the impacts not deny the projections.

I know I piss every one of …..

allowing the group think and conspiracy nonce go unchallenged devalues this forum
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March 19, 2014 2:36pm
cha

I for one think the power and glory of the British Empire is something to celebrate.

Of course you do but you’re not a Bengali.

http://harpers.org/blog/2010/11/churchills-dark-side-six-questions-for-madhusree-mukerjee/
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March 19, 2014 2:43pm
griffith

A song
Not the song kowtow just these lyrics.

How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I’m young
You might say I’m unlearned
But there’s one thing I know
Though I’m younger than you
That even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do.

Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul.

And I hope that you die
And your death’ll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I’ll watch while you’re lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I’ll stand over your grave
‘Til I’m sure that you’re dead.

Dedicated to the brothers Koch, aquacar man, and friends.
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March 19, 2014 2:53pm
Lucia Maria

Kowtow,

The Allies were only responsible for the shifting westwards of Poland because they didn’t have the balls to resist Stalin – Churchill included. Giving parts of Germany to Poland was to make up for the massive loss of territory (including where my Dad grew up) taken by the Soviets. Poland was not happy with the deal and would have preferred the pre-WWII borders, not that she had any say in the matter.
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March 19, 2014 2:56pm
Grant

“The useful idiots of course have chosen not to believe us calling it a conspiwacy theowy.”

This must mean you’re really serious huh Reid?

G
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March 19, 2014 2:58pm
wreck1080

Am i wrong in thinking the govt is incompetent on this matter..

“Education Minister Hekia Parata says she has asked the Serious Fraud Office to investigate Te Pataka Ohanga in relation to allegations about its spending.

The organisation was a subsidiary of the Kohanga Reo National Trust, which was cleared of misusing public funds last night following an Ernst and Young investigation”

How many years do they need to figure out who is misspending!!!!
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March 19, 2014 3:16pm
thedavincimode

I for one think the power and glory of the British Empire is something to celebrate.

Why kowtow, you nearly brought a tear to my eye. I might have to watch Zulu tonight.

I hope you stood to attention after clicking “Submit Commit”.
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March 19, 2014 3:20pm
mikenmild

‘Land of Hope and Glory’, anyone?
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March 19, 2014 3:23pm
Reid

This must mean you’re really serious huh Reid?

Well the Bank of England apparently is Grant. Do you think they might know a thing or two about the monetary system or are they just conspiwacy theowists, as well?
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March 19, 2014 3:24pm
thedavincimode

Exactly what I’m singing this very moment milky.
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March 19, 2014 3:24pm
thedavincimode

[dabbing eyes font] …

Dear Land of Hope, thy hope is crowned,
God make thee mightier yet!
On Sov’ran[3] brows, beloved, renowned,
Once more thy crown is set.
Thine equal laws, by Freedom gained,
Have ruled thee well and long;
By Freedom gained, by Truth maintained,
Thine Empire shall be strong.

Thy fame is ancient as the days, Land of Hope and Glory, Mother of the Free,
How shall we extol thee, who are born of thee?
Wider still and wider shall thy bounds be set;
God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet,
God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet.

As Ocean large and wide:
A pride that dares, and heeds not praise,
A stern and silent pride;
Not that false joy that dreams content
With what our sires have won;
The blood a hero sire hath spent
Still nerves a hero son.

Land of Hope and Glory, Mother of the Free,
How shall we extol thee, who are born of thee?
Wider still and wider shall thy bounds be set;
God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet,
God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet.
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March 19, 2014 3:27pm
publicwatchdog

What work has the Tax Payers Union done to help ensure transparency in Council contracting Jordan Williams?

Where do you stand on this issue?

Must be getting a tad uncomfortable – given that you appear to have been sitting on the fence for some time?
(Meant of course in a caring way 🙂
____________________________________________________________________________________________________

19 March 2014

In light of the recent threat made by Auckland Council to sell my house, over disputed rates,

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11221478

here is some background information, which does not appear to be widely known:

My previous attempts to get a law change to the Local Government Act 2002,to ensure that the ‘devilish details’ of contracts issued would be available for public scrutiny through publication in Council and CCO Annual Reports, by initiating Petition 2008/2:

1) BACKGROUND: WHAT ‘TRIGGERED’ THE INITIATION OF THIS PETITION?

MY RATES DISPUTE WITH AUCKLAND CITY COUNCIL:

A) Auckland City Council CEO David Rankin stated in his

“Overview of direction seeking for 2008/2009 Annual Plan,” 21 February 2008:

“Council has budgeted to spend almost $1 billion in cash this financial year.

The staff salary and wages component of that budget is $145 million.

To successfully carry out its business, including meeting legislative requirements council relies heavily on private sector providers in the form of goods, services and people (temporary labour, external experts and specialist advisors. ”

(That leaves over $855 million being spent on private sector contracts.)

B) When asked in an Official Information Act request (ACC OlA Request No: 1997) whether the operation and management of 64 services provided by Auckland City Council had been contracted out to the private sector:

a) If so, which companies have these contracts.

b) What is the value of each of these contracts.

c) For how long is the term of each of these contracts.

d) Who decided which company would get these contracts.

e) When were the decisions made as to which companies would get these contracts

Auckland City Council Chief Executive David Rankin replied in a letter dated 8 October 2007, as the reason for denying ratepayers this information about where public rates monies are being spent:

“If we release the names of the companies who have contracts with us,together with the amounts spent, these suppliers could be disadvantaged.

Their other potential customers may deduce the rates Auckland City Council are being charges and demand the same pricing. Equally their competitors may deduce their pricing structure and use it against them.”

2) PETITION TO PARLIAMENT

http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/presented/petitions/49DBHOH_PET2936_1/petition-of-penelope-mary-bright-and-189-others-requesting

Petition of Penelope Mary Bright and 189 others

Requesting that the House urgently amend the Local Government Act 2002 to make it a mandatory requirement to ensure councils and council-controlled organisations are open to public scrutiny by using annual reports to record contracts issued to the private sector for goods, services and people as a means of providing openness and accountability in council operations; and to help ensure prudent stewardship of citizen and ratepayer resources.

Petition number: 2008/2
Presented by: Sue Bradford
Date presented: 16 December 2008
Referred to: Local Government and Environment Committee

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

3) EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT PETITION:

Evidence, based upon many hours of unpaid research which I provided to the Local Government and Environment Select Committee, in support of this petition, including 65 Local Government OIA replies from 85 New Zealand District, City and Regional Councils:

http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/sc/documents/evidence/49SCLGE_EVI_49DBHOH_PET2936_1_A67578/penelope-mary-bright-supp1

4) REPORT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND ENVIRONMENT SELECT COMMITTEE:

http://www.parliament.nz/resource/0000075765

“The petitioner identifies her failure to obtain information from the Auckland City Council on its award of contracts to the private sector as a motivating factor for her petition.

We received the results of her survey of 65 district councils confirming that no councils publish details of contracts in their annual reports, and some councils supply details of individual contracts to the auditor as a matter of course.

The petitioner claims that the secrecy around the award of local government contracts is not compatible with the principles of openness, transparency, and democratic accountability enshrined in legislation such as the Local Government Act 2002, and the Local Government (Rating) Act 2002.”

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

5) SUBMISSION TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT 2002 AMENDMENT BILL

Submission I subsequently made to the Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill on this and related matters:

http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/sc/documents/evidence/49SCLGE_EVI_00DBHOH_BILL9872_1_A55792/penny-bright

“On 9 March 2009, I submitted evidence to this same Local and Environment Select Committee, in support of Petition 2008/002:
which:

“Respectfully request(ed) that the House urgently amend the Local Government Act 2002 to make it a mandatory requirement to ensure councils and council-controlled organisations are open to public scrutiny by using annual reports to record contracts issued to the private sector for goods, services and people as a means of providing openness and accountability in council operations; and to help ensure prudent stewardship of citizen and ratepayer resources.”

MY CONSIDERED RECOMMENDATION AS TO THE NECESSARY LEGISLATIVE CHANGE:

Publishing details of contracts issued in Council Annual Reports is not intended to add thousands of pages, containing every word written for every contract issued.

All that is required is:

a) The name(s) of the contracting company /contractor.

b) The $ value of the contract.

c) The term (length) of the contract.

d) The scope of the contract.

eg: DOG CONTROL

a) Joe Bloggs Dog Control Services Ltd.

b) $350,000

c) 2008 – 2010

d) Enforcement of Dog Control Bylaw 123 for Auckland City Council (ward(s) covered)

e) CONTRACT NUMBER ACC 33333

http://www.parliament.nz/resource/0000075765

“It is our view that the issues raised by the petitioner are best dealt with as part of a comprehensive review and we recommend that the Minister consider the issues raised in this petition. ..”

Unfortunately – this Bill does not fix this problem.

The public still don’t know exactly where our rates are being spent.
This is NOT transparent.

It seems ridiculous that the public can scrutinise thousands of pages detailing Ministerial spending on credit cards – but the public are not provided with the above-mentioned ‘devilish’ detail which would clearly show where BILLION$ of residents and ratepayers public monies are being spent on private contractors.

Please amend this Bill to do so.
…………. ”

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

Those who choose to bleat and whine about my refusal to pay rates, because we are not being told exactly where rates monies are being spent, may now be a little more mindful of all the (unpaid) the work which I have chosen to do to help remedy this situation?

You may care to compare this (unpaid) research which I have done, with the arguably bogus 19 page (unsigned) ‘Ernst and Young’ Report of 13 December 2013, which cost Auckland Council over $250,000 ?

http://img.scoop.co.nz/media/pdfs/1312/Independent_Review_Report_FINAL_131213.pdf)

“Auckland Council CEO Stephen Town confirmed the cost of the EY Report and legal work was approximately $250,000.”

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/AK1402/S00157/negotiated-payment-from-mayor-towards-cost-of-ey-report.htm

Penny Bright

‘Anti-corruption / anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’

http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz
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March 19, 2014 3:29pm
SGA

thedavincimode at 3:24 pm

Exactly what I’m singing this very moment milky.

If you are planning to watch “Zulu”, it’s “Men of Harlech” you should be practising.
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March 19, 2014 3:30pm
Judith

When we judge anyone or country or empire, by today’s standards and cultural context, of course they are going to come up lacking – but when you look at what they achieved, within the context of their historical position, then yes, we can be proud of them.

I’m really proud of what my ancestors achieved at Bannockburn – knowledge and the passing of time makes of mockery of what was achieved, but that doesn’t make what they did, in the context of the 1300’s any less a fantastic achievement.

We tend to look and analyse things like the World Wars, from experience of time and with the gift of hindsight – we also look with minds that do not hold the same fears, prejudices and beliefs of those times. Yes it’s easy to see who did what wrong etc, now, when we are not living the same lives.
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March 19, 2014 3:33pm
griffith

lovely

Brings a tear to me eyes

Proud of heritage Grief is.

So why the policy heading us helta skelta towards a population that has no links to empire?

anser me that …eh…
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March 19, 2014 3:33pm
Manolo

A complete beast and despicable animal. Just imagine if it had been the other way around!
http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8816556/woman-jailed-for-having-sex-with-eight-year-old-boy
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March 19, 2014 3:36pm
thedavincimode

Mad hatter waterwoman

Just a few questions since you still seem determined to not pay your fair share.

1. How many bedrooms?

2. Open plan kitchen/dining/living or separate?

3. Formal lounge?

4. The paint job – did your students do it properly, or should I budget on getting it done properly?

5. Indoor/outdoor flow – how well does the house connect with the outdoor living areas and any decking?

6. What sort of shape is the lawn in – have you repaired it after the tent-pitching practice?

7. Off road parking and garaging – what’s it all about?

8. What are your neighbours like?

9. Have you obtained all necessary Council consents for any work your child labourers have carried out?

10. Presumably you’ve got three phase power for your welder?
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March 19, 2014 3:36pm
stephieboy

The glory of the British Empire ?

Especially if you were a paleface and a well to do one at that.!
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March 19, 2014 3:37pm
mikenmild

‘I’m really proud of what my ancestors achieved at Bannockburn’
Hmm, yes, well we’ll give the Scots that one victory in a more or less unbroken run of defeats. Did some of your ancestors personally participate in the slaughter Judith?
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March 19, 2014 3:39pm
kowtow

A lot of brown faces will be casting a ballot in the world’s largest democracy shortly.

Glorious.
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March 19, 2014 3:41pm
thedavincimode

SGA

Good point. I’ll be buttoning my tunic before watching as well. Wouldn’t want to disappoint Colour.
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March 19, 2014 3:41pm
thedavincimode

one victory in a more or less unbroken run of defeats

Poor choice in leadership – should never have gone with the Marquis of Rena Lord David “the Bruce” McCunliffe.
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March 19, 2014 3:48pm
mikenmild

Yeah, I sort of get where you’re trying to go with that joke but it ended up being unfunny.
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March 19, 2014 3:51pm
RightNow

Albert_Ross (148 comments) says:
March 19th, 2014 at 2:19 pm

Saying “No amount of evidence will ever convince me that climate change is really happening” simply shows you to be impervious to fact and reason, which is not a good look.

Do you have any evidence of anyone actually saying that? I don’t actually know of any “deniers”, which always makes me laugh when the term is used since it’s a complete straw man.

there are alternative, non-lefty ways of addressing the issue of climate change. Where is that discussion?

It’s drowned out by the noise of people yelling “denier”.
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March 19, 2014 3:59pm
thedavincimode

Quite right milky

Phone went, I was struggling but just thought “fuck it”.

Post in haste – repent at leisure. Embarrassing to fall at the same hurdle as redtweeter. 🙁
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March 19, 2014 4:03pm
twofish

Resuming the Cunlist – about # 30

• Labour and the unions have made much of the death rate in forestry. At the same time unions resist compulsory random drug testing of forestry workers.

If those two contrasting positions regarding health and safety aren’t bad enough, Labour now wants to tip the indigent and lazy into forestry.

What a fucking fatal train-wreck waiting to happen.

And an aside _
A little while ago I wished to purchase a simple double shelf unit upon which to place a new 42″ television.
Danske Møbler – too expensive
self design, local quote – $3,000 – 5,000 – fucking stupid
final perfect purchase – China made unit, nice design, extra cupboards $450 in stained pine – New Zealand pine! so exported raw to China, constructed there, then sent back to New Zealand.

I’m sure Labour’s proposal’s will be able to beat that. They must think we are all as thick as two short planks.
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March 19, 2014 4:17pm
griffith

“the employment of rhetorical tactics to give the appearance of argument or legitimate debate, when in actuality there is none.”[5][6][28] It is a process that operates by employing one or more of the following five tactics in order to maintain the appearance of legitimate controversy:[29]

Conspiracy theories — Dismissing the data or observation by suggesting opponents are involved in “a conspiracy to suppress the truth”.
Cherry picking — Selecting an anomalous critical paper supporting their idea, or using outdated, flawed, and discredited papers in order to make their opponents look as though they base their ideas on weak research.
False experts — Paying an expert in the field, or another field, to lend supporting evidence or credibility.
Moving the goalpost — Dismissing evidence presented in response to a specific claim by continually demanding some other (often unfulfillable) piece of evidence.
Other logical fallacies — Usually one or more of false analogy, appeal to consequences, straw man, or red herring.
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March 19, 2014 4:22pm
Rowan

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/9845327/Poras-case-strengthened-lawyer

No case against Pora except for the so called ‘confession’, give Teina his freedom. Hopefully the law lords will quash the conviction and permanantly stay any further trials.
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March 19, 2014 4:22pm
griffith

smeg if I know were tdvm was going with that.

maybe whatever he is snorting made him have lapse in judgment.

if you want the regiment

http://www.lancs-fusiliers.co.uk/
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March 19, 2014 4:27pm

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