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February 24, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 24 February 2014

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cha

but your 6.38pm link gives real food for thought.

Guillermo Fawkes is a Catholic!.
/
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February 24, 2014 8:01pm
nasska

….”Guillermo Fawkes is a Catholic!”….

The plot thickens! 🙂
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February 24, 2014 8:03pm
wat dabney

“One thing that would reduce the suicide rate would be if we readopted the old fashioned concept that suicides were regarded as cowards ”

And we might also tackle obesity through mockery and name calling.
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February 24, 2014 8:18pm
Harriet

“…..And we might also tackle obesity through mockery and name calling….”

DPF might say it works – as the fuckwits over at the Standard used to refer to him as the penguin!

Mean bastards. 😎
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February 24, 2014 8:27pm
bereal

Pete George,
dunno if you missed my point on purpose or not but.
i never called victims of suicide cowards you drong.

Read what i said again and try for a more cogent response. (you refferring to them as ‘victims’ of suicide illustrates
how silly some are becomming these days)

nasska,
you are correct, but what i am saying is that if suicide becomes acceptable as a reaction
to bullying or depression then it will make more sense to more people. These days there is little stigma associated
with it. “Oh, he was depressed”. or “Oh he was driven to it by bullies.” This is bullshit that is becomming
popular these days. Even if he was depressed or bullied the thought that he would bring dishonour upon his family
used to dissuade him. (People get over depression and are then glad that they didn’t kill themselves )
People who were bullied do get over it and go on to contribute to society.

There used to be a dishonour associated with the act.
It used to be a stigma that attached to the suicides family.
That was a deterrent.
These days it seems it’s almost OK
That is my point.
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February 24, 2014 8:29pm
nasska

bereal

I see where you’re coming from. There was an article in the local paper not long back where a youth councillor reckoned that certain kids, especially those from dysfunctional families learnt the wrong things from seeing any suicides amongst their peers. Apparently the kids saw the attention & adoration the departed received & consciously or subconsciously saw the grieving as their moment of attention or glory.

I do remember back when suicide was rarely talked about & anyone who did take their own life was posthumously ostracised & their funerals boycotted by many.

I’m not sure that this was good either…..I doubt that there is a right or wrong answer.
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February 24, 2014 8:41pm
mandk

Ryan Sproull @ 7.01

You might like to have a look at this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8734378/Abortion-increases-risk-of-mental-health-problems-new-research-finds.html

From the report:

“Professor Coleman’s study was based on an analysis of 22 separate projects which analysed the experiences of a total of 877,000 women, of whom 163,831 had had an abortion.
It said: “Results indicate quite consistently that abortion is associated with moderate to highly increased risks of psychological problems subsequent to the procedure.
“Overall, the results revealed that women who had undergone an abortion experienced an 81 per cent increased risk of mental health problems, and nearly 10 per cent of the incidence of mental health problems were shown to be directly attributable to abortion.”
The study said that abortion was linked with a 34 per cent greater chance of anxiety disorders, and 37 per cent higher possibility of depression, a more than double risk of alcohol abuse – 110 per cent – a three times greater risk of cannabis use – at 220 per cent – and 155 per cent greater risk of trying to commit suicide.
Professor Coleman said her research was intended “to produce an unbiased analysis of the best available evidence addressing abortion as one risk factor among many others that may increase the likelihood of mental health problems”.
She added: “There are in fact some real risks associated with abortion that should be shared with women as they are counselled prior to an abortion.” “
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February 24, 2014 8:42pm
Viking2

“Hi! I’m Jane” she said.

“I’m Christopher,” he replied “but everyone calls me Dick for short”

“How do you get Dick from Christopher?” she asked.

“You just have to ask me nicely” he replied.
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February 24, 2014 8:46pm
OneTrack

“No mention of Lecher Len on Tv1 last night . . . is there another left-wing conspiracy to get this mongrel a stay of execution? ”

Yes, they are closing ranks.
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February 24, 2014 8:49pm
OneTrack

Pete – “If ACT don’t make any bad mistakes or say things that make them look stupid and keep their lawyers out of politics they should continue to receive reasonable coverage.”

Yes, until they start registering in the polls and the risk rises that they will help Key. Then it will change again.
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February 24, 2014 8:57pm
bereal

nasska @8.41
back in the day you talk about the suicide rate was much lower.
For the reasons you cite. This was good.

You help make my point.

Anything that will cause a potential suicide to pospone the decision is good. Dishonour on the family is one such thing.

There are very few people around today who think, shit I should have killed myself.

But there are plenty who think, ” Thank Christ I didn’t kill myself then in that black period that has passed.”
Life is so good today.”

“Victims” of suicide is a term used by socialist handwrigers (like pete geaorge for eg) who subscribe that no one is really personally responsible.

People should get real.
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February 24, 2014 9:03pm
Pete George

Being a victim doesn’t exclude responsibility for it. You can be a victim of your own stupidity. Or of mental illness.
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February 24, 2014 9:16pm
Rowan

Reid @ 8.03

Edward Livingston reminds me of a certain other Dunedin character who I won’t name here, I’m sure that deep down he loved his family and that this was completely out of character behaviour, this and Charlotte Dawson offing herself just goes to show what someone can do when they have lost it and feel that they have nothing left to live for. Unfortunately they are only ever remembered for their final act and not the person that they truly were, but I guess we would never have heard of them otherwise.
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February 24, 2014 9:21pm
bereal

Dear Pete George,

i do not dissagree with your observation @ 9.16.
However this has nothing at all to explain your silly expression that someone is a “victim” of suicide.

Surely you have sufficient intellect to grasp that point.
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February 24, 2014 9:31pm
RRM

Neighbour’s Sussex / Orpington cross chicken said “BukKAKe” at me as I walked up the drive this evening.

I just wonder how she found out… 🙂
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February 24, 2014 9:43pm
SGA

mandk at 8:42 pm

Ryan Sproull @ 7.01
You might like to have a look at this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8734378/Abortion-increases-risk-of-mental-health-problems-new-research-finds.html
From the report:
…. [snip for brevity]

As I read the quote from the Telegraph, I wondered how you’d control for the possibility that women with mental health and substance abuse issues might be more likely to seek abortions in the first place because they felt less able to cope with an unwanted pregnancy.

A quick search suggests that Professor Coleman’s work isn’t well regarded, for the reason that concerned me, and for problems reproducing her result from the same dataset.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priscilla_K._Coleman
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February 24, 2014 9:46pm
Chuck Bird

Rowan @ 9:21

With logic like that I can see why you are a David Bain supporter. Charlotte Dawson harmed only herself. Edward Livingston Livingston killed his own flesh and blood to hurt his wife.

You are pretty low to try to score points due to this tragedy.
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February 24, 2014 9:54pm
mandk

I read that wikpedia article too, SGA.

It seems that most of the criticism of Coleman has come from the APA which is a long-time “pro-choice”, politically-motivated organisation:

http://afterabortion.org/2006/evidence-doesnt-matter-apa-spokesperson-says-of-abortion-complications/
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February 24, 2014 9:56pm
SGA

mandk at 9:56 pm

I read that wikpedia article too, SGA.
It seems that most of the criticism of Coleman has come from the APA which is a long-time “pro-choice”, politically-motivated organisation:

Be that as it may, it doesn’t address what I saw, and still see, as a major problem with her study.
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February 24, 2014 10:01pm
mandk

On a different subject, the link I posted above has a fascinating excerpt from a paper by Michael Crichton on consensus science:

“I regard consensus science as an extremely pernicious development that ought to be stopped cold in its tracks. Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you’re being had.

Let’s be clear: the work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus.

There is no such thing as consensus science. If it’s consensus, it isn’t science. If it’s science, it isn’t consensus. Period.”
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February 24, 2014 10:03pm
Nostalgia-NZ

I know that you think you onto something with this comment bereal…

‘These days there is little stigma associated with it. “Oh, he was depressed”. or “Oh he was driven to it by bullies.”

But could you explain how dead people measure stigma? Or are you talking about stigmatising the dead person’s friends or relations?
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February 24, 2014 10:05pm
Nostalgia-NZ

Mandk, that’s is absolutely wrong about ‘consensus’ deciding science – there is no reason that a popular or debated decision can determine science. Hardly worth mentioning really.
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February 24, 2014 10:11pm
Rowan

No logic in your posts Chuck
Charlotte was a secondary comparison, the main comparison was with your hero, the gutless coward who took his own life because he could not face the consequences of his life situation and taking the lives of 4 members of his family first.
If you only see this as ‘point scoring’ then you are pretty shallow, but we already know that don’t we!
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February 24, 2014 10:21pm
goldnkiwi

How do some posters get to be such experts on death and the dead? Rhetorical question!!!
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February 24, 2014 10:30pm
Nostalgia-NZ

How does an ass get to become a lawyer in a bottle shop.
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February 24, 2014 10:32pm
Chuck Bird

Rowan I am logical just like Judith Collins. That is why she was not keen on paying compo to someone who on the balance of probabilities murdered his family for money similar to the black widow. Why are the odd of DB getting a cent? I have heard rumours that he wants to just get on with his life. You would know more than me about that though.
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February 24, 2014 10:36pm
Nostalgia-NZ

Whose balance of probabilities chuckie, yours?
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February 24, 2014 10:38pm
Rowan

Better BOP test Chucky
What is the odds of KP having a cent to his name once the outcome of the defamation case is released?
And not to hard to guess where his cult following will be and how much $ they will give him.
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February 24, 2014 10:52pm
goldnkiwi

Is it fair to say that murder is an extreme form of bullying?
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February 24, 2014 10:53pm
Nostalgia-NZ

Watch out there’s a drunken ass in the bottle shop writing poetry.
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February 24, 2014 10:59pm
eszett

mandk (554 comments) says:
February 24th, 2014 at 8:42 pm
Ryan Sproull @ 7.01

You might like to have a look at this:

And you, mandk, might want to have a look at this

http://healthland.time.com/2012/03/08/study-linking-abortion-to-mental-health-problems-is-flawed/

A psychiatry journal has distanced itself from a controversial and widely cited study it published in 2009 linking abortions with mental health problems in women.

The original study by Dr. Priscilla Coleman of Bowling Green State University and her colleagues, published in the Journal of Psychiatric Research, suggested that abortion was associated with long-term mental health problems like panic attacks, depression, substance abuse and post-traumatic stress disorder. Seven states have since used the study to support laws that require women seeking abortions to be counseled on the mental health risks. As it turns out, the study was highly flawed.

One of the fundamental errors that plagues Coleman’s study is that the researchers did not distinguish whether mental health problems occurred before or after abortion. Indeed, in many cases, mental illness preceded abortions, weakening the argument that abortion can increase women’s mental health risks. In a commentary, the journal said the 2009 paper “does not support assertions that abortions led to psychopathology.”
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February 24, 2014 11:48pm
SPC

The issue is also covered here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priscilla_K._Coleman

The following site has a post from Coleman.

http://reproductiveresearchaudit.com/what-really-happens-to-women-not-denied-abortions-analysis-by-special-guest-dr-priscilla-coleman/

The site’s mission statement is indicative of the politics of those doing research.

http://reproductiveresearchaudit.com/mission/
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February 25, 2014 12:00am
Ben Dover

Christ the empathy from lizards is astounding

yes and we know all the negative effects of abortion that the

Let’s exterminate the white race and everyone else race will not tell you

SUcked in Every one they are TELLING LIES AGAIN what is new — Nothing

Can they think of any thing worse? Than Abortion?

YES THEY CAN

Just one

State enforced Euthanasia

and another
and letting Violent psychos run wild in NZ

What you have not figured out is this

THEY DON”T JUST WANT ABORTION

THEY WANT YOU ALL EXTERMINATED

SLOWLY – Look around you

Wake up? People

IT IS ALL LIES
LIE upon LIE wrapped in BULLSH*T
and RAMMED DOWN YOUR THROATS

Every minute of the day from
Cradle (if you are lucky) to Grave

if they let you die a Noble death

OR PUT YOU DOWN LIKE A DOG

because that is coming

And if that does not work
they START A WAR

Looking for Weapons of MASS MASTERBATION

THAT never Existed

George Carlin – It’s a big club and you ain’t in it

http://youtu.be/i5dBZDSSky0
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February 26, 2014 1:05am
ShawnLH

Murdering children is wrong, in or out of the womb. It matters not one whit whether mothers who have their children killed are depressed afterwards. If they are sane, they will be. If they are liberals, they won’t be. But it’s not relevant.

It is one of the laughable idiocies of liberals that they will criminalize a parent who merely gives their child a smack, and call it assault, and wail and gnash their teeth about how very very howwible such parents are, but then happily claim that murdering children in the womb is not only a “human right”, but positively good.

To actually believe this kind of totally contradictory nonsense requires a person to be several shades of stupid.
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February 26, 2014 1:31am
eszett

To actually believe this kind of totally contradictory nonsense requires a person to be several shades of stupid.

Says the person who actually believes that there is no difference between a fertilised egg and a child.
Dark, dark shades of stupid indeed.
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February 26, 2014 3:27am
ciaron

Well, you can’t have the latter without the former…
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February 26, 2014 7:38am
eszett

yes, and you can’t have it without a sperm either.
Do you think a sperm is equal to a child as well?
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February 26, 2014 9:46am
ciaron

No. And neither is an unfertilized egg. That is why in my lay opinion, fertilization seems to be the best point to declare life has begun. Others are free to differ.
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February 26, 2014 3:35pm
eszett

A lay opinion indeed. Completely arbitary and driven purely by the desired outcome than by reason or facts.
And that exactly is the problem. You define things becasue it suits your agenda.
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February 26, 2014 8:12pm
ciaron

Enlighten me then; Whence doth life begin? first neurological activity? formation of the nervous system? first heart beat? first breath?

You define things becasue it suits your agenda.

what if I were to show you secular pro lifers share a similar definition?
http://www.secularprolife.org/#!abortion/cimphttp://www.secularprolife.org/#!abortion/cimp
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February 27, 2014 7:00am

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