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January 9, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 9 January 2014

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General Debate

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Pete George

Some interesting ideas on a Universal Basic Income.

We at least should be looking at simplifying our overly complex tax and welfare systems.

And there’s some very interesting discussion on it here: http://thestandard.org.nz/ubi/
Really.
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January 9, 2014 8:04am
jp_1983

My answer to the UBI

Margaret Thatcher on Socialism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okHGCz6xxiw
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January 9, 2014 8:09am
Scott Chris

Yeah I was wrong about Packer. Having read a description of the CCTV footage I think he got what he deserved.
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January 9, 2014 8:10am
Longknives

Wedding of the year!
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9590440/Secrecy-over-talk-of-Bain-wedding

Woman’s Day/New Idea etc will be creaming themselves with excitement!
I hope Judith has her best frock at the ready?
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January 9, 2014 8:12am
Keeping Stock

Big ups Scott Chris; admitting that you were wrong is classy 😀
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January 9, 2014 8:13am
Judith

@ Longknives (3,654 comments) says:
January 9th, 2014 at 8:12 am

No, I’m saving my best dress to wear at the celebrations when Kent Parker gets hung out to dry for telling lies to judges and defaming people. 🙂
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January 9, 2014 8:15am
duggledog

Will Bain’s wedding get more media coverage than Mandela’s funeral?
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January 9, 2014 8:17am
duggledog

Will Bain’s wedding be a shotgun wedding?
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January 9, 2014 8:19am
Harriet

A Satanic group has revealed designs for a 7ft tall monument of a goat-headed demon it wishes to see erected at the Oklahoma state Capitol. [Go and have a look at the drawing – I swear Kea did it! 😎 ]

The illustration, which depicts Satan as Baphomet sitting on a pentagram throne flanked by two children, was formally submitted by the New York-based Satanic Temple on Monday, the Associated Press reports.

The proposed location would see the statue placed adjacent to a Ten Commandments monument.

A statement from Satanic Temple spokesman Lucien Greaves says: “The monument has been designed to reflect the views of Satanists in Oklahoma City and beyond.

“The statue will also have a functional purpose as a chair where all people of all ages may sit on the lap of Satan for inspiration and contemplation.”

At the time of press, the group had raised $16,146 of the required $20,000 to build the statue.

The group says the erection of the privately-funded Ten Commandments monument in 2012 cleared the way for its own structure.

But politicians in the state have insisted Satanists should not be given the same treatment as Christians.

“This is a faith-based nation and a faith-based state,” Republican Earl Sears tells Raw Story.

He added: “I think it is very offensive they would contemplate or even have this kind of conversation.”

An online statement for the group lobbying for the new statue reads: “The mission of The Satanic Temple is to encourage benevolence and empathy among all people. In addition, we embrace practical common sense and justice.

“As Satanists we should all be guided by our conscience to undertake noble pursuits guided by our individual wills. We believe that this is the hope of all mankind and the highest aspiration of humanity.”

No. Abusing Christians is not a noble pursuit, nor the highest aspiration of humanity. 😎

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/01/07/satanic-temple–application-7ft-demon-erected-ten-commandments-picture_n_4553620.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cuk-ws-bb%7Cdl14%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D234784
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January 9, 2014 8:22am
Paulus

Am amused at the Christchurch Council’s coastal flood report.

What the Council will do will be worth watching for be assured Insurance is not involved. Insurance is for events that are sudden and accidental – such as an Earthquake or Fire and not for erosion which is foreseen.

I assume that like the Bay of Plenty coastal regions – Papamoa – Tsunami, that the affected property LIM’s will be noted by the Council. This could have a serious effect on house prices and sales.
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January 9, 2014 8:29am
nasska

Harriet

….”The proposed location would see the statue placed adjacent to a Ten Commandments monument. “….

More clutter. We need less homage to mythical beings, Satan included.
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January 9, 2014 8:40am
Longknives

“We need less homage to mythical beings, Satan included.”

I dunno Nasska- That would rule out some of my favourite old head-bangin’ songs!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l482T0yNkeo
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January 9, 2014 8:48am
dog_eat_dog

I’m a fan of the UBI as it allows you to cap welfare costs and you probably wouldn’t need a massive administrative set-up to run it. Those are two pretty solid advantages over the current mess we have.
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January 9, 2014 8:50am
jcuk

Good link and interesting PG.
A chair to Satan makes as much sense as a Ten Commandments statue …. they do funny things the religious koots of America and the world.
Religion is the both the best and the worst thing mankind has come up with.
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January 9, 2014 8:50am
duggledog

Professor Doug Sellman has just equated the drunk boy and this situation in NZ to child suicide bombers in Afghanistan on Radio Live, to the nodding encouragement of Wallis Chapman.

Wallis is to take over Sunday mornings from Chris Laidlaw. I think I’m having a bad dream and I’ll wake up shortly…
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January 9, 2014 8:53am
Left Right and Centre

I thought that in this world there are too many important happenings to fit into the allotted time on the TV news.

Clearly I’m mistaken.

A bunch of nerds in no real danger stuck on a ship. Daily updates.

Who. Gives. A. Fuck.
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January 9, 2014 8:54am
nasska

Longknives

Best hard rock band….ever!
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January 9, 2014 8:55am
Elaycee

duggledog:

Will Bain’s wedding be a shotgun wedding?

There’s a rumour the guest list is a very brief one but apparently some folk are dying to be there! 🙂
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January 9, 2014 8:59am
nasska

For some reason the groom’s family will not be attending Elaycee. 🙂
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January 9, 2014 9:02am
lilman

Fuck Judith,dont be so selective on hating those who tell lies,after all your masturbating fantasy Bain ,is a Proven liar.

But you are female,so I do understand.
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January 9, 2014 9:02am
Nostalgia-NZ

The panty waists are out and about.
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January 9, 2014 9:02am
James Stephenson

Best hard rock band….ever!

Big call, especially if your definition of “Hard Rock” covers Zeppelin, Sabbath, Deep Purple or the Who, but well done for making it.
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January 9, 2014 9:15am
James Stephenson

There’s a rumour the guest list is a very brief one but apparently some folk are dying to be there!

Just watch the guests scatter when the photographer announces it’s time for the family shots.
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January 9, 2014 9:16am
duggledog

Keep the Bain gags coming. After the ‘Cody The Nine Year Old’ I need it!

I’m assuming Karam will be Best Man
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January 9, 2014 9:32am
Pauleastbay

Will Bain’s wedding be a shotgun wedding?

.22 less cleaning up after the reception
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January 9, 2014 9:37am
James Stephenson

Best man, celebrant, and both the ushers probably, dd.
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January 9, 2014 9:37am
stephieboy

Judith will you be a bridesmaid or is it page boy.?
At least the much elusive compo payout wont be funding our answer to “William and Kate” wedding of the year.
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January 9, 2014 9:43am
peterwn

Scott – re Packer – right outcome but it would not have gone down that path in NZ. Apart from contempt of court, a judge gives ample notice if prison is on the cards so that a probation officer report, etc can be obtained. Also in NZ he would have been bailed pending an appeal against sentence (the NSW police did not oppose any bail).
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January 9, 2014 9:44am
Pauleastbay

Longknives

Best hard rock band….ever!

Probably, certainly the only one of 30 years plus that can still fill a stadium. Metallica maybe

In fact there are very few touring acts that fill a stadium these days.

ACDC
Stones
Springsteen
U2
??????????
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January 9, 2014 9:45am
stephieboy

I’m assuming Karam will be Best Man

And sole speech writer.?
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January 9, 2014 9:50am
James Stephenson

Reckon you can add Rush to that list Paul.
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January 9, 2014 9:59am
Longknives

PEB- A lot of the old metal bands fill stadiums Iron Maiden, Judas Priest etc
Def Leppard too….
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January 9, 2014 10:12am
Longknives

Not to mention these guys-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpb-vPPnZYM

You wanted the best you got the best!!
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January 9, 2014 10:13am
lilman

One would have hoped that Bain would have given his brother a shot at best man.
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January 9, 2014 10:14am
OneTrack

“and you probably wouldn’t need a massive administrative set-up to run it. ”

You know this is New Zealand right? And that this policy wouldnt be implemented by National this year, more likely by the coalition of envy and hate next year and that will result in a massive increase in public servants?

Furthermore, will the amount set be “enough” ie a “living Wage”. If not, you will still need all the existing machinery to handle the top-ups.
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January 9, 2014 10:16am
Manolo

Where has the tax money gone?

We should be more concerned about the $1 billion dollars in Emissions Trading Scheme levies already collected by this Government through increased fuel and power charges. Where has this gone?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/letters-to-the-editor/9590981/Letter-Climate-change-is-a-natural-occurrence
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January 9, 2014 10:24am
dog_eat_dog

OneTrack – I would hope it would be set up by a right of centre government so we didn’t end up with a massive department negating any savings. I’ve always understood the UBI to be paid out to everyone over a certain age, and in exchange, things like WFF, student allowances/loans and super would be eliminated. The ‘top-up’ is having a job.
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January 9, 2014 10:30am
Harriet

“…….Crime rate drops – yet we are locking up more NZers?………A society should be judged on how it treats its worst members………………..This fact doesn’t stop the Sensible Sentencing Lynch Mob manipulating victim grief to demand the usual ‘longer harder’ prison crap and both main political parties have been guilty of playing to redneck vengeance rather than enlightened social policy…..”

Martyn Bradbury View all articles by Martyn Bradbury January 9, 2014 at 10:11 am

1st comment » Che’sCrushedSkull says: 😎

“…..A society should be judged on how it treats its worst members…’

A society should be judged on how it deters people from becoming it’s worst offenders!

The death penalty and/or long prison sentances can be used as a deterance from the truly innocent being killed; the NEXT victims of nuinced sentancing! Deterance, rehabilition and penalty are just three of the nuinces. And what weight each should carry is further more again.

Hanging someone by mistake, is far far less likely to happen than someone becoming the next murder victim. Far, far less too than the number of women who regret having an abortion!

Infact, murderers don’t take dna samples to see if they should kill their victim. Which then of course means, that conviction for murder without dna positives does not then lead to a hanging but a natural life term for murderers.

If you do not value life with a life – then you are undervalueing life itself.

Ironically then, and maybe ignorantly, you may well be one of societies worst members Martyn!

There is such a thing as the Sanctity of Life.

http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/01/09/crime-rate-drops-yet-we-are-locking-up-more-nzers/#comment-176562

That’ll fuck him off! 😎
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January 9, 2014 10:31am
Pete George

I’ve always understood the UBI to be paid out to everyone over a certain age, and in exchange, things like WFF, student allowances/loans and super would be eliminated.

It would have to be balanced against other payments. This would substantially simplify the system.

Some of the more extreme proponents want a UBI along with free education, free health care etc but that would have to be a non-starter. A UBI would give people the choice to invest in whatever they think would best top up their basic incomes.
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January 9, 2014 10:40am
flipper

WHERE IS NOAH WHEN CHRISTCHURCH NEEDS HIM???

” Rising sea levels threaten parts of Christchurch
Emily Murphy, Newstalk ZB Experts are warning that rising sea levels will put some areas of coastal Christchurch under water within 100 years.
” A report by Taylor & Tonkin warns that South New Brighton, South Shore, Sumner, and Brooklands could become water logged if current sea level increases are anything to go by.
It says a worst-case scenario of a two metre rise by 2100 can’t be ruled out – a great deal higher than previous predictions.
The Christchurch City Council will take into account the reports findings when it formulates its district plan this year….”
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January 9, 2014 10:44am
dime

“Probably, certainly the only one of 30 years plus that can still fill a stadium. Metallica maybe

In fact there are very few touring acts that fill a stadium these days.

ACDC
Stones
Springsteen
U2
??????????”

There arent a lot of stadium bands.

Add to your list

Metallica – plays a high percentage of stadium shows.
Bon Jovi (biggest tour of 2013)

Then you have bands like GNR (the axl version) – plays some stadium shows. none in north america
Maiden – same as GNR

and of course – Sir Paul McCartney. He would probably be the biggest of them all if he toured a lot.
Elton John.. Billy Joel..

Roger Waters – his last tour was fucking huge

Black Sabbath

The metal guys are big in europe and south america. more arenas in north america

____________________________________________________________________________________________

Heres a quick statement of fact – if you can listen to AC/DC for a few songs and not smile or start feeling happy, youre either real old or lack taste 😀
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January 9, 2014 10:52am
Colville

Manolo.
I just wish that the 100,000 carbon units I “own” were worth more than a few cents each!
Back in ’09 (?) when I got the first chunk of them I should have flogged them off at $20 each and blown the dosh! dammit!
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January 9, 2014 10:54am
skyblue

November building consents issued rise 20% from October, mainly for apartments; big increase in Auckland.

Let the building boom begin. I am in the construction area supplying chemicals so along with increased O&G exploration we should have a good year.

Vote Cuntliffe get Norman.
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January 9, 2014 11:01am
Jack5

Pete George opens the General Debate thread today at 8.04am with a post on “universal basic income” that links to his own blog. He does not disclose this link will take you to his blog.

Pete do you think that when you put up a link to your own blog, you should tell us the link is to your own blog?
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January 9, 2014 11:03am
Keeping Stock

@ flipper – hasn’t some soul in Christchurch already built their own version of Noah’s Ark, somewhere up in the Cashmere Hills? I seem to remember seeing something on the telly a while back.
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January 9, 2014 11:07am
dime

Dime was listening to the joe rogan podcast last night. I like Joe some of the time. When hes not being a stoner douche.

Anyway, he had a guest on who said a couple of things that interested me.

1) Studies show two parent households living below the poverty line work a combined total of 16 hours a week on average. Whether the economy is booming or in recession. Basically, they choose not to work cause its easy to stay home.

2) Apparently kids learn empathy from their fathers. He said due to the lack of single parent households (living just with mum) is having a huge impact. sociopathy has doubled in the last 15 years.

I havent done any further research so im taking him at his word.. just thought it was interesting…
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January 9, 2014 11:09am
backster

“WHERE IS NOAH WHEN CHRISTCHURCH NEEDS HIM???”

The Council should therefore build a 20cm high dyke representing the flood level increase over the first decade then add 20cm each succeeding decade as the sea rises to inundate it. In that way the communities remain safe and expense to each generation of ratepayers is restrained….No need for an Arc at all.
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January 9, 2014 11:09am
dime

“Pete George opens the General Debate thread today at 8.04am with a post on “universal basic income” that links to his own blog. He does not disclose this link will take you to his blog.”

Its a pain in the ass.

He could at least bullet point what the post is about. I dont want to go to his shitty blog.
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January 9, 2014 11:10am
ciaron

Flipper @10.44, where did you get that quote? The firms name is Tonkin & Taylor, a very respected international consultancy:
http://www.tonkin.co.nz/
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January 9, 2014 11:10am
Harriet

Martyn Bradbury took my comment down at the Daily Blog. What a hopeless fuck.

They don’t care who gets murdered or why. Full stop.

All they care about is votes to be made from being nice to crimminals. Offer the punters another ‘soft option’ for the ‘soft vote’ is all that matters too them. That’s all the Martyn Bradbury is willing to discuss.

Well that is not Justice. That has nothing at all to do with Justice. Or deterance. Or penalty. Or rehabilitation.

That’s just fucken politics – and someone will lose their life over it. No I’m wrong. Lot’s of people will. More will be raped.
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January 9, 2014 11:13am
peterwn

Judith – at 8.15am. At best, I do not think you appreciate the implications of the defamation case Karem v Parker (and the other guy). At worst I cast you in a Madame Defarge role, except she would not have worn her best clothes as they would be splattered in blood. If Parker had punched Karem in the hooter (Bob Jones / Rod Vaughan style), the worst consequence would probably have been a $1000 fine. Parker faces bankruptcy and will have his human right of freedom of expression curtailed for life – he probably would not be permitted to make any comment on the outcome of the case. And when the three years of bankruptcy is up, Karem’s lawyers will probably try and seek an extension. This is serious stuff and the consequences are really all out of proportion to the ‘publishing’ of a few misplaced words. The judgment is taking a long time to come out – I would say that the judge is deeply troubled by this case.

Are you really so viscous and vindictive as to wish this sort of fate on anyone?
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January 9, 2014 11:18am
dog_eat_dog

Pete,

I have no problem with keeping free healthcare. But as per education – if someone made wise choices before they reached university, it could effectively be free as well under a UBI if people made the right choices. Again, weigh the complexity, administration and nominal costs of student loans and student allowance payments against a fixed amount year-on-year with no on-going liability on the balance sheet – I know what I’d rather have.
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January 9, 2014 11:22am
flipper

ciaron (1,054 comments) says:

January 9th, 2014 at 11:10 am

Flipper @10.44, where did you get that quote? The firms name is Tonkin & Taylor, a very respected international consultancy:
http://www
***
Newstalk ZB.

Respected, in some respects, they may be.
But after the Kapiti Coast debacle I would not regard anything on future sea rises to be anything other than speculation. And look where that got the Kapiti DC.

Tonkin and Taylor can express a view. But woe and grief will face any Council that gives their view more than a passing nod.

This report should be taken with all the salt in the sea water T & T claims will increase.
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January 9, 2014 11:29am
Judith

@ peterwn (2,668 comments) says:
January 9th, 2014 at 11:18 am

What about the stress he caused Mr Karam and his family, not to mention others that were hurt by the carry-on of the group Parker led, which can be summed up as nothing more than witch sniffers. I have copies of their facebook page. The conversations that went on there are nothing but disgusting. Plans to infiltrate and disrupt the private work place of Bain supporters, their families, including their children and so on.

I’m sorry, but Mr Parker deserves everything he will get. He was warned and warned and warned, but he carried on, and even now, despite promising the Judge that he will close down his site, he has not only reopened it, but has also allowed defamatory remarks to remain, (of which I have copies of at least 11).

Mr Parker is an idiot (at best), what he said personally and what he allowed to remain in the public eye was disgusting. I hope they make him very responsible for his actions.

As adults, we are all responsible for our actions and he knew that when he started doing what he did. He also knew that when he lied to the court.
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January 9, 2014 11:31am
Viking2

Pete George (20,431 comments) says:
January 9th, 2014 at 8:04 am

Some interesting ideas on a Universal Basic Income.

We at least should be looking at simplifying our overly complex tax and welfare systems.

And there’s some very interesting discussion on it here: http://thestandard.org.nz/ubi/
=======================
Jesus Pete, where have you been these last 15 years?
ACT have been endeavoring to convince you dumb arses that this is exactly what has been needed for all of this time and more.

Slow learners I guess.
Blame our school system, apparently one of the best around.
Huh.

Begs the question, has the Standard finally cottoned on?
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January 9, 2014 11:34am
ciaron

Flipper, I was simply referring to the “journalist’s” error…
But is is important to note that all such reports should be read as advice on the risk that the client is exposing themselves to.
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January 9, 2014 11:35am
edhunter

AC/DC the best hard rock band ever to have their lead singer die, replace him & then release the 3rd highest selling album of all time. There fixed it.
And PEB the Stones, Springsteen & U2 hardly count as hard rock, well not in my book anyway.
Now if you’d said the Foo Fighters or Muse then you’d have mentione a couple of Hard Rocking Stadium fillers.
UP The Irons!!
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January 9, 2014 11:38am
flipper

Peterwn…

Just when I thought you were being sensible in 2014.
You make light of a scandalous libel, and show no empathy for either Karam or, inferentially, Bain.

Parker et al had AMPLE ADVICE AND OPPORTUNITY to withdraw and apologise.
Their decision to tough it out was theirs alone.
Irrespective of the consequences, their attitudes will result in them suffering the consequences – whatever they may be.
And inevitably, they will warn others of what may occur in like circumstances.

At least, Peterwn, you haven’t gone after D Bain in your comment like several brainless pukes have over Bain’s planned wedding.
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January 9, 2014 11:44am
Nostalgia-NZ

‘This is serious stuff and the consequences are really all out of proportion to the ‘publishing’ of a few misplaced words. The judgment is taking a long time to come out – I would say that the judge is deeply troubled by this case.’

‘few misplaced words,’ how about a 3 year incessant campaign running into thousand of words. The Judge no doubt is deeply troubled because it’s the worst case in NZ history, Parker admitted lying in Court, gave an undertaking to the Court which he broke, made an apology then went back on it – ‘misplaced brain and a motor mouth more like.’ But anyway we’ll see, much more to develop on this and the dna/forensic tests if the past provides any indication.
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January 9, 2014 12:01pm
stephieboy

The fact that karam has stated that one of his central aims is to bankrupt Kent Parker is enough for the Judge to throw out the claim IMO. It would be unconscionable to do otherwise as its not the courts role to reward vindictiveness and vengefulness as I see it.!
Politicians and other public figures have had much, much worse things said about them in the court of public opinion including KB.
We need US style Defamation laws that emphasize the constitutional protection of free speech which makes it very difficult for plaintiffs to successfully bring actions.
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January 9, 2014 12:09pm
Pete George

ACT have been endeavoring to convince you dumb arses that this is exactly what has been needed for all of this time and more.

Slow learners I guess.

Slow progress I guess, it doesn’t seem to have gotten anywhere. I was aware Act had ideas on universal incomes. It’s actually been talked about for hundreds of years.

It’s interesting that benefits can be seen on both the left and right of politics. It would be a challenge getting them working together to find common ground on the details though.
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January 9, 2014 12:19pm
flipper

ciaron (1,055 comments) says:

January 9th, 2014 at 11:35
****
Noted
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January 9, 2014 12:28pm
lilman

Bain lied,shouldnt he be held accountable for lying to the court?
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January 9, 2014 12:37pm
Nostalgia-NZ

Stop being an idiot stephieboy. Karam warned Parker to cease and desist, Parker ignored that, mocked him and in fact ‘ramped it up’ giving lectures on his version of what defamation is, claiming he would turn his trial into a Bain retrial, invited others to support his defence saying they could view as an ‘investment.’ Even his tearful apology in the High Court was lies – he had the opportunity to settle and if he is bankrupted it is his own choice by disregarding the letter he got in 2009. For your version of what laws we need, look no further that TM, Fairfax and others settling to show that the present law works. Parker right at this moment may be in ‘contempt of Court,’ the result of his continued idiocy.
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January 9, 2014 12:40pm
Nostalgia-NZ

‘Bain lied,shouldnt he be held accountable for lying to the court?’

If you have proof Bain lied go to the police, if not take advice from Kent Parker’s school of idiots on how to get sued – oh, I see you already have.
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January 9, 2014 12:44pm
flipper

lilman (604 comments) says:

January 9th, 2014 at 12:37 pm

Bain lied,shouldnt he be held accountable for lying to the court
***&**

J H C on a bike…
Not another one
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January 9, 2014 12:48pm
stephieboy

Bain lied.?? It might help to explain why his compo claim is in limbo , is as elusive as ever and where the accountability may truly reside.
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January 9, 2014 1:09pm
Manolo

Do as I say…:

According to the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration’s environmental assessment of the launch and re-entry of Virgin Galactic’s spacecraft, one launch-land cycle emits about 30 tons of carbon dioxide, or about five tons per passenger. That is about five times the carbon footprint of a flight from Singapore to London.

http://michellemalkin.com/2014/01/08/environmentalists-in-spaaaaace-branson-dicaprio-set-to-blast-off/
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January 9, 2014 1:24pm
wikiriwhis business

Police defend action over drunk boy

Police criticised 18-year-old Bradley Goudie for posting a video of a drunk child to YouTube claiming it re-victimised the boy. Goudie argues his intention was to highlight serious issues facing society

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9590389/Police-defend-action-over-drunk-boy

After Roast Busters I think it better to use online media to ensure police act promptly and not
trivialise and demean procedures as Roast Busters proved they do.

Probably also stop another Bain type episode where police have time to manipulate evidence to their case.
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January 9, 2014 1:26pm
edhunter

And just to prove NZ is not only country suffering from PC apologists, T-Shirts manufactured for Australia Day have been pulled from the shelves after being labelled racist. What was the hideous message printed on these ‘offensive’ T-shirts I hear you ask… Australia Est 1788. I kid you not.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/aldi–1788-tshirt-approved-20140108-30g81.html
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January 9, 2014 1:53pm
Bruce Forbes

The following from Anthony Watts at http://www.wattsupwiththat.com provides insight as to why “Climategate” was an important turning point for the CAGW movement:

“As readers know, in a nutshell, Climategate was about the stonewalling of FOIA requests so that independent researchers (such as McIntyre) could not replicate the scientific work. That access for data to allow scientific replication was unreasonably blocked, and someone who was in a position to see what was going on behind the scenes decided that they would do something about it. Virtually every person involved in Climategate emails had some connection to government, either being directly employed by a government agency, or a government funded university.

On 17 November 2009 a large number of emails, together with other documents and pieces of code, from the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia were posted on a Russian web server, and announced anonymously at the Air Vent blog, Climate Audit, Real Climate, The Blackboard, and WUWT with the comment:

We feel that climate science is, in the current situation, too important to be kept under wraps. We hereby release a random selection of correspondence, code, and documents.
Hopefully it will give some insight into the science and the people behind it.

Of note, was the immediate deletion of the comment at Real Climate, and then a campaign by Dr. Gavin Schmidt of NASA GISS to convince Lucia at the Blackboard that the release wasn’t to be trusted.

In that release from the “FOIA” leaker, we saw revelations like “Mike’s Nature Trick“. Here is a list of some of the emails and their content.From this Google document page: http://sites.google.com/site/globalwarmingquestions/climategate

===========================================================

Massaging the presentation of data:

942777075.txt the infamous “trick” to “hide the decline” in tree-ring data
939154709.txt “They go from 1402 to 1995, although we usually stop the series in 1960″ (also referring to tree-ring data)
1225026120.txt “I’ll maybe cut the last few points off the filtered curve before I give the talk again as that’s trending down” (referring to recent temperature data).
1254108338.txt “So, if we could reduce the ocean blip by, say, 0.15 degC, then this would be significant for the global mean” … “It would be good to remove at least part of the 1940s blip”. This relates to the rapid warming before 1940 followed by cooling after 1940, which the ‘scientists’ would like to remove because it does not fit with their theory.

Attempting to get papers with a sceptical view on global warming rejected from journals, and not referred to in the IPCC reports:

1089318616.txt “I can’t see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. Kevin and I will keep them out somehow – even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is !”
1054756929.txt Ed Cook discusses with Keith Briffa how to get a paper rejected even though the mathematics is correct
1054748574.txt where Briffa says “I am really sorry but I have to nag about that review – Confidentially I now need a hard and if required extensive case for rejecting”
1080742144.txt where Jones “went to town” rejecting two papers that had criticised his work.

Refusing to provide data and supporting information when requested, and deleting emails (all quotes from Phil Jones):

1107454306.txt “The two MMs have been after the CRU station data for years. If they ever hear there is a Freedom of Information Act now in the UK, I think I’ll delete the file rather than send to anyone”.
1109021312.txt “I’m getting hassled by a couple of people to release the CRU station temperature data. Don’t any of you three tell anybody that the UK has a Freedom of Information Act !”
1182255717.txt “Think I’ve managed to persuade UEA to ignore all further FOIA requests if the people have anything to do with Climate Audit.”
1211924186.txt Tim Osborn informs Caspar Amman that an FOI request has been received from David Holland about papers included in the IPCC report (May 27 2008) ….
1212009215.txt Jones suggests what “Keith could say” and “Keith should say” (May 28 2008) …
1212073451.txt “Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4? Keith will do likewise. Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? … We will be getting Caspar to do likewise.” (May 29 2008). [Under paragraph 77 of the FOI Act it is an offence to delete information subject to an FOI request].
1228330629.txt “When the FOI requests began here, the FOI person said we had to abide by the requests. It took a couple of half hour sessions – one at a screen, to convince them otherwise” … “About 2 months ago I deleted loads of emails, so have very little – if anything at all.” “
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January 9, 2014 2:13pm
Weihana

Manolo (11,927 comments) says:
January 9th, 2014 at 1:24 pm

Do as I say…:

According to the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration’s environmental assessment of the launch and re-entry of Virgin Galactic’s spacecraft, one launch-land cycle emits about 30 tons of carbon dioxide, or about five tons per passenger. That is about five times the carbon footprint of a flight from Singapore to London.

So apparently you can’t say something about the possible dangers of climate change if any aspect of your life involves carbon emissions. So no car, no food transported by carbon emitting machines etc.

Perhaps what people like Branson are actually saying is that we need to find realistic and practical alternatives so that we can continue to do the things we want like driving cars, flying planes and going to space.
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January 9, 2014 2:23pm
muggins

I see David Bain is back in the news. Looks like the wedding is going to go ahead after all.
I wonder if the bride to be knows what a liar Bain is.
We all know he told his lawyer he would be admitting to wearing the glasses the were found in his room, the ones with the damaged frame and no lenses in them, with one lens showing in a photo of Stephen’s room taken while his body was still in the room on the Monday. But instead of admitting under oath that he was wearing those glasses he lied to the court.
He said he didn’t know how those glasses came to be in his room. He lied.
He said he hadn’t used them or seen them that weekend or for a year previous. He lied.
He said he didn’t know where those glasses were kept. He lied.
He said he had forgotten about those glasses. He lied.
He said he hadn’t needed them . He lied.
He said those glasses weren’t in his room on the Sunday night. Almost certainly a lie. He had been wearing them that weekend so why wouldn’t they be in his room?
He said he couldn’t account for their presence in his room on the Monday morning. Another lie.
And that’s just the lies we have proof of.
What about the blood on the rifle under his fingerprints? He told Binnie his best notion was that it was animal blood from the summer, yet all the blood samples taken from the rifle proved to be human blood.
The list of lies goes on and on.
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January 9, 2014 2:27pm
igm

Would like to see the goose Cooper and his bureaucrat mates whacked around the ears for interfering in the miniature railway at Paraparaumu. This has been running for years with no incidents, yet these greasy PSA-indoctrinated germs (Worksafe) made them shut down over Christmas, a time when they can make a good dollar . . . is this more left-wing unionised envy!
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January 9, 2014 2:28pm
Rowan

Kent Parker is a total f…wit and deserves everything he gets from the judge, he has dug his own grave and admitted lying to the court, not a good move to put his website back up but I’m sure we won’t have to worry about him for to much longer as soon as the decision is released. His loyal cult following will abandon him like rats from a sinking ship and presumably find another target for their hate presumably Lundy as I see his case following exactly the same path.
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January 9, 2014 2:32pm
Rowan

Yes its very easy to see where long list of lies comes from, straight from the big mouth of Aunt Fanny!
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January 9, 2014 2:34pm
flipper

Something, self named as “Muggins” says:

*** ” weekend so why wouldn’t they be in his room?
He said he couldn’t account for their presence in his room on the Monday morning. Another lie.
And that’s just the lies we have proof of…..”
….
Don’t waste your time here.
Take out a full page newspaper ad.
or
Go to the Police with your “evidence:.

But Muggins, as you well know, the newspaper publishers will tell you to fuck off.
AND
The Police would not, even if they believed you which is already clear they do not, dare to try a third strike against Mr Bain lest they face charges of malfeasance.

Fick off you pathetic impersonation of a germ.
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January 9, 2014 2:55pm
stephieboy

Rowan if they are a long list lies then tell as why.?
e.g the blood on the rifle under his fingerprints was not human blood.???
Flpper.
David couldn’t account for the broken glasses in his room.??
A third strike against David.?
Am sure the police are in full cognizance of the double jeopardy rule.
Are you.??
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January 9, 2014 3:15pm
Rowan

Do you need to start Stephie!!!

Where is the proof that it was human blood or even blood at all? oh thats right it came from Kim Jones who examined the rifle with a polilight and the blood ‘flouresced’ back when the light was applied over it. Except we both know and it was admitted by Jones at the retrial that blood does not ‘flouresce’ at all and that only the background would flouresce and that the blood would show up as dark. Dear old Kimmy was just trying to ‘help’ the 1995 jury by telling the jury the opposite of the truth so they would ‘understand it better’, in the retrial his explanations were shown up for what they were and he had no explanation as to why the fingerprints ridges in the photograph were the wrong colour if they were in fact ‘bloody’ and his explanation that the fingerprint definition would become better defined with pressure applied is just pathetic.
As there was no blood found under the prints and no evidence to support the existence of blood around the fingerprints this is very strong evidence that the fingerprints are not made in any blood at all.
But I guess you witchsniffers clearly know better and ‘clearly’ Jones is right isn’t he!!
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January 9, 2014 3:31pm
flipper

stephieboy (284 comments) says:

January 9th, 2014 at 3:15 pm
*****

Oh ho…so another germ now wishes to rely upon the law. What a laugh.

So the Police “know” Mr Bain lied , and that he also lied to Hon Justice David Binnie.
But they nevertheless chose NOT to accept Binnie’s invitation to respond to the Bain interview (with Binnie). That was their opportunity you simpleton. But they chose not to take it because all they had was the bullshit you regurgitate.

By the way….. if you are surprised at my description of you as a germ, you might wish enquire as to where the term, is most frequently used in relation to fools like you. 🙂
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January 9, 2014 3:36pm
Rowan

Good call Flipper
These simpletons clearly know so much more than the 5 law lords, 12 jurors and the Hon Justice Binnie, didn’t you know its just so ‘obvious’, ‘mountain of evidence’ ‘fundamentally flawed’ etc etc.
They are a joke!
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January 9, 2014 3:41pm
flipper

Yep Rowan..
They are just a bunch of germ generating toe rags….
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January 9, 2014 3:49pm
Fletch

This is an interesting find. Someone has scans of Time magazine – one page from an issue in1974, and the other the latest issue from 2014. Both past and present articles make mention of a polar vortex (then and now) that’s bringing all the icy weather to America. The difference? In 1974 they blamed it on global cooling, and now they’re trying to blame it on global warming.

In 1974, Time Magazine blamed the cold polar vortex on global cooling.

‘Scientists have found other indications of global cooling. For one thing there has been a noticeable expansion of the great belt of dry, high-altitude polar winds —the so-called circumpolar vortex—that sweep from west to east around the top and bottom of the world.’

Another Ice Age? – TIME

Forty years later, Time Magazine blames the cold polar vortex on global warming

‘But not only does the cold spell not disprove climate change, it may well be that global warming could be making the occasional bout of extreme cold weather in the U.S. even more likely. Right now much of the U.S. is in the grip of a polar vortex, which is pretty much what it sounds like: a whirlwind of extremely cold, extremely dense air that forms near the poles.’

Polar Vortex: Climate Change Could Be the Cause of Record Cold Weather | TIME.com

See link for actual page scans –

http://pjmedia.com/eddriscoll/2014/01/07/time-magazine-swings-both-ways/
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January 9, 2014 4:23pm
stephieboy

Rowan (1,387 comments) says:
January 9th, 2014 at 3:31 pm

Proof of blood. ? Did not the Defence go to great lengths to prove it was animal blood consistent with Bain claiming it was from rabbit hunting expedition some six months priors to the murders ?. This was in spite of the fact the sample used by Lloyd was some 15 years so it was near on impossible to to tell what it actually was.Besides how could prints from an alleged rabbit hunting six months prior, survive an energetic mass shooting.??
Hentschell gave samples of the same blood to Dr Gropp who established they were human of a blood grouping consistent with Stephen’s( who shared the same blood group as Laniet and David .)
But I can see why the Defence bet over backwards to try and discredit Kim Jone as its all rather damning isn’t it. ? And no manner of Lawyer’s hypebole or technolese can change that . The only crime Jone’s ever committed was to try and explain his analysis so the Jury and lay public could understand .There is no evidence of perjury however many of Bain’s supporters may wish to think.
The retrial judge did not think so so.
BTW I take it Binnie covered the matter in some depth and came to your conclusion.?
Correct.?
But hey ,let sleeping dogs lie . Let the wedding proceed and the Compo claim remain unresolved and elusive as ever.
Simopleton’s
Sorry Rowan but the five law lords did not make a determination of guilt or otherwise.
They left that to the Jury I thought.?
Just a reminder, Binnie’s finding were not accepted by the Government or haven’t you heard.??
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January 9, 2014 4:24pm
stephieboy

Flipper is abuse all you, Rowan and Judith can come up with.??
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January 9, 2014 4:27pm
Fletch

Hehe – One News has just done a post on Facebook regarding smart phones –

Do you remember when smartphones first appeared? Check out this old report about one of the first devices from 2002: http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/back-in-day-birth-smartphones-video-5794996

Did you ever think they would come to dominate people’s lives as they have?

To which some wag has commented –

2002 …when Alison Mau was still with Simon Dallow ..and wasn’t a lesbian lol

Major BURN! 😛
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January 9, 2014 4:35pm
flipper

Well stephieweevie little child….

If there was any point in having a serious discussion with you, that would be my preference.

But in the face of your (and others) continued lies, nay serial lies, distortions and more, there is little purpose in doing anything more than to describing you for what you are – a toe rag germ.

Go Away!
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January 9, 2014 4:43pm
peterwn

Re various comments on Bain case and a certain defamation case – The person who has suffered the most defamation is Robin Bain. Fortunately for the perpetrators, deceased people cannot sue for defamation or he would have collected big. Robin’s family have had to and still do suffer the consequences of that defamation.

Perhaps Judith and co would like to consider the current defamation case in that light.
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January 9, 2014 4:45pm
Judith

@ peterwn (2,670 comments) says:
January 9th, 2014 at 4:45 pm

Robin’s family? You mean the members of the family that NEVER visited the Bain house, made very little attempts to have contact with them before their deaths, saw the children only five or so times in their entire life, and who noticed that Robin Bain was upset by his marital situation, and look tired, and ‘drawn’ – that family? The ones that did absolutely NOTHING to help him with his situation, with his deteriorating house etc, despite noticing all the issues he had? The same family that gladly held out their hand and accepted the money from the estate, despite David not having explored all avenues open to him?

Robin Bain is dead, he cannot be defamed, and even if you think he has been, you would first have to prove that the things said about him are no true – so far I’ve seen absolutely no evidence that can do that.

So before you get out your violin and ‘plead’ for the poor dead Robin Bain, there is one hell of a lot you have to first explain away.

His extended family can rot in hell – they weren’t there when he needed them, and its a bit bloody rich making out now that they care – all they care about in my opinion is making sure they don’t need to pass over any of their ‘ill gotten gains’.
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January 9, 2014 5:03pm
cha

Gallup tells a tale.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/166763/record-high-americans-identify-independents.aspx?ref=image
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January 9, 2014 5:06pm
Judith

@ stephieboy (287 comments) says:
January 9th, 2014 at 4:24 pm

Have you not heard? The government has not ‘turned down’ the compensation claim? They asked for a peer review, which broke all the rules of the peer review process and first that has to be sorted before anyone can ‘turn anything down’.

It appears to me that you are about as good at making up your own information as Kent Parker is at defaming people.
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January 9, 2014 5:06pm
flipper

PeterWn …..

Hon Justice Ian Binnie….

The following extract from his report speaks for itself and gives the lie to your position:

**
” 30. I am very conscious that Robin – unlike David – is not here to speak for himself. Yet I
believe the physical evidence compels the conclusion that it is more probable than not that
Margaret and three of the Bain children were killed by Robin Bain before he turned the gun on
himself and committed suicide. ” ***

Not conclusive, but a conclusion based on evidence assessed by an experienced and independent judicial officer of the highest standing.

Or do you sit with the porno ex judge and the former Auckland tax lawyer???
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January 9, 2014 5:10pm
Judith

@ flipper (2,955 comments) says:
January 9th, 2014 at 2:55 pm

Oh, the police have already black listed old ‘aunt fanny’. There has been a directive to all those involved with the case not to take part in any discussions with a certain ‘aunt fanny’ due to the manner in which ‘she’ was caught lying about what she had been told.

but wait there is more … certain Pathologists involved in the case will no longer take their calls either, because … yep you guessed it … aunt fanny lied about what ‘she’ reckoned the pathologist had said….

Do you see a pattern here?? KP lies to the court, aunt fanny lies to anyone that will listen …
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January 9, 2014 5:14pm
Judith

@ Rowan (1,387 comments) says:
January 9th, 2014 at 3:41 pm

Of course these ‘simpletons’ know more Rowan, after all their leader stated very clearly in court after he had been caught lying that he has read the ‘extracts’ of Karam’s books and that is apparently where and how the group gets their expertise – oh and of course from Aunt Fanny who is an expert in ? umm bullshit?
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January 9, 2014 5:19pm
peterwn

Judith @ 5.03pm – I strongly suspect that you have defamed the wider Bain family, and they could well have good reason to ask Kiwiblog to take down your comments if they chose.
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January 9, 2014 5:21pm
Manolo

I can guarantee it: David “Multiple Murderer” Bain is innocent. It’s all a conspiracy against a honest citizen of Aotearoa.
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January 9, 2014 5:22pm
Judith

@ peterwn (2,671 comments) says:
January 9th, 2014 at 5:21 pm

Oh really? All the things I stated in there are well documented in the case, including the visits, the noticing Robin’s condition etc. The fact they accepted the inheritance is also well documented, and the last comment I made very clear was my opinion.

Now surely as you obviously think David Bain is guilty, you would have based that opinion on factual knowledge, and therefore would have already known that nothing I have said, other than my opinion at the end, has not already been said in Court – or are you as uninformed as most of the other Robin Bain Witch Sniffing Supporters, because by making your stupid statement, you appear to be?
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January 9, 2014 5:28pm
Viking2

Dear Mum & Dad,

It is with great regret and sorrow that I’m telling you that I’ve eloped with my new boyfriend. I’ve found real love and he is so nice.

Especially with all his piercings, scars, tattoos and his stolen Harley.

But it’s not only that, I’m pregnant, and Ahmed said that we will be very happy in his caravan in Epping Forest.

He wants to have many more children with me and that’s one of my dreams too.

I’ve learned that marijuana does not hurt anyone and we’ll be growing it for us and Ahmed’s friends.

They’re the ones providing us with all the cocaine and ecstasy we could ever want.

In the meantime we’ll pray for science to find a cure for AIDS, so Ahmed can get better. He deserves it.

Don’t worry about money. Ahmed has arranged for me to be in films that his friends Leroy and Jamal make in their basement.

Apparently I can earn £200 per scene. I get a £200 bonus if there are more than three men in the scene and an extra £100 for the alsatian.

Don’t worry Mum. Now I’m 14 I know how to take care of myself. Someday we’ll visit you and Dad so that you can meet your grandchildren.

Dad, found the cash you were hiding from mum, but don’t worry we left you a few quid.

Your loving daughter,

Angelina.

P.S. Dad. For God’s sake calm down. It’s not true. I’m actually watching TV at the neighbours. I just wanted to show you that there really are worse things in life than England loosing the bloody Ashes.
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January 9, 2014 5:39pm
Nostalgia-NZ

Dear oddly demented.

Fisher in his conclusions stated that even using his ‘system’ Binnie may well still have found in David’s favour. As an observation in Law that is not a negative against Bain or the conclusion by Binnie of David’s innocence. Take some time to think about that.

Walsh, a scientist, couldn’t exclude the marks on Robin’s thumb as not having been caused by his handling of the magazine, so that is also not a negative and not at odds with the various experts that said they were the result of Robin having handled the magazine.

What there is no contest at all about, although the sisters lied about this for years, is that there were no marks on David Bain’s chest when he was strip searched illegally, but with his implied consent. No photos exist of any injuries to his chest and no police officer, Doctor or Surgeon would not have recorded them both in written form and by photo. They are not mentioned in the prescribed form filled out by the Police Doctor which remains an exhibit. However photos do exist showing cuts and bruises to Robin hands, blood spatter and most importantly smears on his palms. Robin Bain died with an imprint on his thumb and other marks on his hands consistent with him having handled the magazine, he had injuries to his hands, including smears of having handled something bloody before his death, his blood was on the laundry towel and there was evidence he’d had a nose bleed. Calling David a liar as anonymous jerks doesn’t clean up Robin’s hands, remove the injuries, marks and blood from his hands or off the towel in the laundry, doesn’t put underpants on his deceased body – trying working on that. It’s called an idiot test.
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January 9, 2014 5:43pm
Reid

So Danone is suing Fonterra for $320m. Ouch. Guess the lawyers win again.

It’d be interesting to know what the Chinese market is doing now. Even though we know this was an overreaction that originated from no real problem, a Chinese guy remarked to me the mindset of the Chinese is they would take that outcome as a sign that Fonterra bribed our govt inspectors to say that, because that’s what they would do in their country, in cases like this.

It’s an interesting marketing challenge isn’t it, to come up against a mindset like that and convince them we’re not like them. It’s also a bellweather for NZ Inc, to have most of our eggs mostly pointing toward a country where corruption, bribery and ruthlessness is simply a way of getting things done and it happens all over the place. Complete foreign territory.

I’d hope that Trade & Enterprise is developing strategies for dealing with it. Who thinks that’s happening, right now?
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January 9, 2014 5:44pm

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