General Debate 24 January 2014

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NK

An all Swiss final in the men’s Aussie Open tennis? Go the Fed Express tonight. And what is it about the Swiss? Wawrinka is as quiet as a mouse too and hardly shows any emotion, just like Federer.
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January 24, 2014 8:04am
Pete George

Hone Harawira is at Ratana talking about unity. Including with the party he divided from. He doesn’t seem very united with his job in Parliament.

Harawira and unity is like Greens and oil.
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January 24, 2014 8:05am
duggledog

Principal of Rangitoto College in Auckland David Hodge said on Checkpoint yesterday afternoon, that the new education policy put forward by National is great – assuming the principals and teachers being helped are receptive to that help.

Thoughts?
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January 24, 2014 8:06am
The only red for me is that of Manchester United

Not quite 24 hours since National launched their education policy for the future and still nothing from the Internet Party on their education policy. Bomber must still be writing it up on a A4 lined refill.

Heard some University of Auckland chap on Radio Live this morning saying that National’s education policy still doesn’t address the problem of poverty. As that is where the source of our failing education system lies. It would seem the only bullet Labour have in their gun this year is to beat the poverty drum. It’s what they will campaign on.
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January 24, 2014 8:09am
Longknives

“An all Swiss final in the men’s Aussie Open tennis?”

No chance- Nadal beats Federer…
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January 24, 2014 8:14am
ManuT

Guys, if you get some time go to thestandard.org (there’s no www) and comment in their ‘Open Mike’ section for that day. Do it early morning so the nut bars actually read it. It wont matter how reasoned you are or even if you are completely neutral on an issue the nut bars will moan and bitch at you. They will talk amongst themselves how stupid and wrong you are and make some of the most bazar remarks.
Be warned, your comments may be deleted but when they get through it’s great sport. And also just about all of their patrons are at the site right up till about 3-4pm then except for one or two they are all gone so get in early.
Bye the way, when they see you have a job or business they actually scorn you for it. So strange.
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January 24, 2014 8:17am
Colville

ManuT.
Most that comment on KB have life bans over at the Stranded.

lprent likes to control the message on his hate site.
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January 24, 2014 8:27am
duggledog

Onlyred –

I agree. I saw them shrilling on about poverty last night, Turei as usual and some teacher union lady. What the f*** has so called ‘child poverty’ got to do with teaching? Their job is to teach, that’s all, as far as I’m concerned.

Yet the teachers seem to have deluded themselves into believing they are de facto parents
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January 24, 2014 8:38am
RF

ManuT. 8.17am. There is a hard core of nasty moaners over on the standard that number no more than 15. The rest appear to be one off visitors who soon get booted off. What a sad rag.
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January 24, 2014 8:58am
jcuk

If you write in a reasonable and tolerant manner over at ‘The Standard’ you will not be banned, even if you make humourous comments against some of the fruitcake writers …. been there for years now since almost when they started I believe from what Lprent said of me when I was accused of being a RW troll by some twit, I am of course… a RW or LW troll as the occasion demands … but of course I am not a rabbid RWNJ and basically a questioning socialist, ex-ACT founding member, who finds quite a bit of the LWNJ writing a mix of the hilarious and sickening … similar to what I find at KB … two sides of the coin.

From what lprent has written apparently he un-banned a lot some time ago so perhaps writers will have to give away the dubious but heralded distinction of being “banned from the Standard’. Now banned from Red Alert or Crusanding Rabbit is another matter entirely. There are the intemperant on both sides of the pen.But people who pay for a site I guess are entitled to exercise how they like it.
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January 24, 2014 9:02am
Harriet

ManuT (23 comments) says:
January 24th, 2014 at 8:17 am
Guys, if you get some time go to thestandard.org (there’s no www) and comment in their ‘Open Mike’ section for that day. …..’

Manu…..We’ve all been proudly kicked off it. 😎

PS…..say high to Princess Prickles[QOT] from me. 😎
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January 24, 2014 9:03am
hj

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-21/us-army-colonel-world-is-sleepwalking-to-a-global-energy-crisis
US Army colonel: world is sleepwalking to a global energy
Crisis
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January 24, 2014 9:05am
jcuk

When you see the results of child poverty in front of you in the classroom making your job harder … a job that you love to do and are committed to try and do well you are definitely entitled to comments even if some get mixed up between the responsibilities of a teacher and a parent.
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January 24, 2014 9:11am
hj

Lewis told participants that the International Energy Agency’s (IEA) own “comprehensive” analysis in its World Energy Outlook of the 1,600 fields providing 70% of today’s global oil supply, show “an observed decline rate of 6.2%” – double the IEA’s stated estimate of future decline rate out to 2035 of about 3%.

The IEA report also shows that despite oil industry investment trebling in real terms since 2000 (an increase of around 200-300%), this has translated into an oil supply increase of just 12%. Lewis said:

“That is a very striking number and one I think that should be ringing alarm bells. It indicates to me that something has fundamentally changed in the economics of the oil industry and that you’re having to invest more and more for diminishing incremental production.”
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January 24, 2014 9:12am
jcuk

Oh yes! QOT told me to piss off some years back from her site … but sadly she visits The Standard as well. She is rather rude about DPF too but that just shows her bias and immaturity.
“Princess Prickles” … I like that 🙂
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January 24, 2014 9:21am
flash2846

Hey there jcuk

I am enjoying your comments, thanks.

Just my opinion but have you thought to contact CYFS when a pupil comes to class unfed? Again, in my opinion that is child abuse.
I spent almost a year on the DPB and can quite honestly say for a parent to not feed their children they must be motivated to behave that way. The DPB along with the other benefits that go with it is from my experience quite generous (usually 3+ times the dole or sickness benefit)
To receive the DPB or whatever it is now called you are not required to do anything different from any other parent.
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January 24, 2014 9:27am
igm

There is no poverty in this country, only poor parenting by those that should not be breeding. It would not matter what they were paid from taxpayers’ hard work, these leeches would still be too tired to get out of bed in the mornings to equip their children for a day at school. Not only do they breed for financial gain, they also expect to be housed, plied with booze, drugs, gambling, cars, and anything else those that do the paying possess. It must stop!
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January 24, 2014 9:29am
Pete George

If you write in a reasonable and tolerant manner over at ‘The Standard’ you will not be banned, even if you make humourous comments against some of the fruitcake writers

Nonsense. I made a point of remaining reasonable and tolerant when commenting there (as I usually do here) and was attacked and abused relentlessly with unreasonableness and intolerance in abundance – and I was the one who was banned – ironically for suggesting that The Standard would be more effective if a more reasonable and tolerant environment was encouraged. That pushed lprent’s tolerance of me beyond the limit and he banned more permanently. And he keeps reminding everyone at The Standard of how intolerant he is of anyone he disagrees with.

But he is tolerant of others who follow his abusive example, he not only tolerates a toxic environment, he encourages it.
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January 24, 2014 9:36am
dime

“ManuT.
Most that comment on KB have life bans over at the Stranded.”

Not only did Dime get banned for life, they banned an entire group of people from another site I used to post on! it went along the lines of “we know you are all associated with Dime, youre all banned” HAHAHA

“Rex” lasted a while. Rex was quite funny. But Rex couldnt contain himself the night helen was booted. I think my 50 line post of “HAHAHAHAAHA” did the trick.
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January 24, 2014 9:37am
dime

“There is no poverty in this country, only poor parenting by those that should not be breeding.”

pretty much. people choose hoe they want to live. unfortunately a lot choose to be lazy sacks of unemployable crap.
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January 24, 2014 9:41am
Paulus

Have heard Hekia Parata twice over the last 12 hours – recently on 9 to Noon with the argumentative Katherine Ryan.

Parata must have listened – she was very good indeed, despite the usual snide comments.
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January 24, 2014 9:42am
Manolo

Didn’t know God was a scientist: http://www.nationaljournal.com/technology/pope-francis-in-social-media-message-calls-internet-a-gift-from-god-20140123
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January 24, 2014 9:48am
Manolo

The “delicate” lprent is a despicable and loathsome individual.
Torquemada would be proud of the rainbow censor from The sub-Standard.
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January 24, 2014 9:50am
Chuck Bird

I see John Boscawen has dropped $0.30 on ipredict. Either there are leaks at the ACT Board or Board members are keen to make money off inside knowledge. I think this is a big mistake for ACT. Epsom may vote anyone in on an ACT ticket but if John is not running I doubt if ACT will get a second MP.
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January 24, 2014 9:50am
Manolo

According to the Luddites making money is “bad”. The communists complain to all and sundry:
http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8788613/greens-condemn-obscene-bank-profits
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January 24, 2014 9:52am
freemark

Aahh, the Stranded. I was not officially banned, just unable to post..even through the “amnesty” stage. The thing Prent or Brent (or who ever that lame excuse for an IT guy is) is frightened of most is a calm debate with facts etc. They are obviously so aware that their position on most issues is utter bullshit and they know that they cannot even defend it. Same on FB groups..people “block” as soon as you show intellectual or moral superiority of course they are all Socialists trying to defend a failed, murderous ideology. They want that Elite status at the trough, desperately.
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January 24, 2014 9:59am
big bruv

I consider being banned at the Standard to be one of the things that a true right winger should experience.

The secret is to expect to be banned, don’t moan about it when it happens, Iprent (and others) are practiced liars who do not allow free speech or opinions that differ from the accepted views of the left.
What you should do is enjoy winding them up, point out the truth, point out that the left is by its very nature corrupt and watch the reaction from the complete nutbars who inhabit the place.

You should also take solace from the fact that what the hard left fools want will never happen in NZ, these bludgers and parasites are destined for a lifetime of disappointment. remind them of that before you are banned and enjoy the reaction.
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January 24, 2014 10:02am
Pete George

They mistake moaning about it with reminding them of their stupidity. They keep bringing up their stupidity themselves, which is also stupid.

There are some worthwhile posts at The Standard – mickysavage has stepped up from petty harrassment to author level pretty well – and some commenters are worth reading, but (like here) there’s a lot of abuse and crap.
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January 24, 2014 10:07am
jackinabox

What’s with all the fuss about that hare in Nelson Mandela’s lug hole? All old geezers have them in their ears.
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January 24, 2014 10:12am
dubya

Why is it OK to suck up to Ratana, but not the Exclusive Brethren?
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January 24, 2014 10:21am
Rowan

This is way over the top, calling for children to require booster seats in cars until age 12. A booster seat will not neccessarily save a child in the event of a serious crash, Its like Sue Bradfords anti-smacking legislation, telling parents how they should live there lives. What a joke!
http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/9644186/Car-restraint-age-must-rise
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January 24, 2014 10:22am
Jack5

Chuck Bird posted at 9.50:

..Epsom may vote anyone in on an ACT ticket…

Won’t Epsom voters get tired of being denied the choice of voting National?

Don’t they mind party backroomers making their choices for them?

Are they sheep or are they people?
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January 24, 2014 10:22am
dime

“these bludgers and parasites are destined for a lifetime of disappointment.” lol so mean, so true.
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January 24, 2014 10:23am
kowtow

National has come up with a flagship education policy,to cost us considerable millions and most know it’s a waste of money pouring more into dropkick losers.

National must know these feral drongs don’t vote or if they do don’t vote National .The teachers (or most of ’em won’t vote National either).

This is an expensive election year PR exercise.
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January 24, 2014 10:38am
Colville

The “delicate” lprent is a despicable and loathsome individual.

But lprent is the BEST programmer in the whole world, I know this because lprent himself told me so 🙂
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January 24, 2014 10:40am
Colville

Why is it OK to suck up to Ratana, but not the Exclusive Brethren?

Because Exclusive Bretheren are white and hard working.
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January 24, 2014 10:43am
Chuck Bird

“Won’t Epsom voters get tired of being denied the choice of voting National? ”

@Jack5

That is quite possible. However, I do not think they would mind near as much with a man with a track record as a Minister. I would think Key would be happy to make Boscawen a minister again but would not be near as likely to do so with an unknown ACT leader.
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January 24, 2014 10:54am
Pete George

I would think Key would be happy to make Boscawen a minister again but would not be near as likely to do so with an unknown ACT leader.

That’s an important point. Boscawen has the political respect and parliamentary experience to be a minister and the party experience to help Act get established again.

If Act have an MP or MPs with no parliamentary experience they will find it hard enough to get Act’s act together and get up to speed in Parliament and will not be ready to be a fully functioning minister for some time. At best they would get very minor portfolios and associated ministerships, and even that would be a struggle for them.

Colin Craig faces the same issues. If he gets in he would be best to get experience on the cross benches for his first term. If he is busy in politics would he put someone with no experience in property management to take over his current job?
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January 24, 2014 11:04am
Manolo

Why is it OK to suck up to Ratana, but not the Exclusive Brethren?

Because is it another Stone Age myth and invention?
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January 24, 2014 11:06am
kowtow

There’s no such thing as global warming.

The more they study the more they learn.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/01/03/antarctic_ice_shelf_melt_lowest_ever_recorded_just_not_much_affected_by_global_warming/
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January 24, 2014 11:08am
Pete George

Have you taken a river swim yet this summer? That moment when you plunge in and your heart stops for just a second in the freezing water, the kids stay away from the banks so the eels can’t nibble their toes and your picnic waits on the warm stones.

An unmistakably Kiwi experience.

Who the hell wrote that? It’s from an email sent out by Russel Norman. It sounds nothing like swimming at the river to me.

Sure, the cool water can take a bit of getting used to, especially if it’s in a glacial fed South Island river.

But I’ve never been worried about eels not seen anyone that was, and I have never heard of toe nibbling every happening.

And I try to find something more comfortable than stones to picnic on.

It’s more like PR palaver with no connection to my Kiwi reality.

But it’s an experience currently at risk with 61% of monitored swimming sites on our rivers already unsafe for swimming.

River pollution is certainly an important issue that needs attention.

But if you want to appeal to ordinary Kiwis then bloody well write like an ordinary Kiwi!
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January 24, 2014 11:31am
Jack5

From Pete George’s post at 11.04:

Colin Craig faces the same issues. If he gets in he would be best to get experience on the cross benches for his first term.

You’re a political junkie, Pete. You put MP’s on a pedestal way too high.

Read and listen to what they say. Many of them are dolts. Some of them are fuckwits.

I suspect becoming a plumber or an electrician requires more experience and nous than becoming a junior Minister.

If Craig has the right stuff, to borrow Chuck Yeager’s term, Craig could pick the job up running.
If not, he’ll never get his head round it.

I won’t be one of those deciding whether Craig has the right stuff, however.
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January 24, 2014 11:37am
Pete George

I’ve heard that despite his previous experience John Banks found it very difficult getting up to speed in Parliament this term.

There are many stories of aspiring MPs quickly becoming disillusioned with the job and getting out again, or not performing.

Some as naive as Craig may rise to the occasion, but more likely will find it very tough to achieve anything like what he imagines he can.
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January 24, 2014 11:51am
Komata

And on a COMPLETELY different note, a Public Service’-type posting…

Within the last 18 hours, has anyone here had the curious experience of fleetingly-visiting an on-line site advertising website creation (which didn’t suit our needs, anyway), then within a matter of minutes receiving a text on a mobile phone advising that one has ‘won’ $2.5 MILLION?

Not only that, an IDENTICAL message was sent to another mobile phone (different number of course) three hours after the first.

All very well, EXCEPT that no phone numbers were given to the website briefly visited!!

NZ Telecom advise that it is a scam (of course) BUT the fact that mobiles were able to be accessed from a brief visit is concerning.

As we are evidently not the only ones (just ‘random’ numbers), it would be interesting to learn if others have had similar experiences within the last 18 hours….

To those who haven’t, be careful, the $2.5 million is ‘all in the mind…’
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January 24, 2014 11:57am
dirty harry

death penalty for this sub human…why do we let it live?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/9646434/Karla-Cardnos-killer-Paul-Dally-enjoyed-the-crime
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January 24, 2014 12:14pm
Fletch

Professor Chris Turney, the man who went on a search for global warming and got stuck in the Antarctic ice for almost a month, has been given an award for his “research in understanding past and present climate change”… 😆

Unintentional Antarctic resident Chris Turney, leader of the ship of fools, wins a prize:

Professor Chris Turney has been awarded the 2014 Frederick White Prize for his research on understanding past and present climate change and on improving climate change models.

Professor Turney is an Australian Research Council Laureate Fellow in the UNSW Climate Change Research Centre.

The prize, awarded biennially, recognises the achievements of scientists in Australia who are engaged in research of intrinsic scientific merit that has contributed to community interests, rural or industrial progress, or the understanding of natural phenomena.

Professor Turney is expected to arrive back in Australia today, after leading the 2013-2014 Australasian Antarctic Expedition, a scientific program aimed at increasing our knowledge of the vital Antarctic region.

“I am absolutely delighted and incredibly humbled to receive such a prestigious award,” Professor Turney said.

Turney will collect his prize in Canberra this May. I hope he can find a park.

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/and_the_award_for_best_global_warming_prediction_goes_to/

It’s almost as ridiculous as Obama’s Nobel prize.
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January 24, 2014 12:25pm
Chuck Bird

It is nice to see that the vast majority of commenters do not support Gould’s left wing view that men are nearly always the perpetrators of domestic violence – physical or psychological.

Bryan Gould: Psychological abuse law is failing
9:30 AM Friday Jan 24, 2014

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11191018
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January 24, 2014 12:31pm
stephieboy

Fletch.

The only real reason why you refuse to entertain the notion of climate change is that it obstructs deniers like you the opportunity to pillage, plunder and exploit the environment unfettered and at will.
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January 24, 2014 1:27pm
nickb

Chuck – Gould was formerly Vice-Chancellor of Waikato University, which includes among its feminazi teaching staff the like of Ruth Busch. Look her up
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January 24, 2014 1:35pm
Pete George

David Parker coincidentally mentions rock stars and Justin Bieber on the same day David Cunliffe reveals a new look – Labour and rock star moments.
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January 24, 2014 1:38pm
Manolo

@stephieboy: It seems you’ve been successfully brainwashed by your Massey lecturers.
When is the Feminist Studies graduation?
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January 24, 2014 1:53pm
Chuck Bird

@stephieboy

I am not going to give up my 5.7 litre V8 to satisfy you global warming alarmist.
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January 24, 2014 2:20pm
Pete George

RadioLIVE Newsroom ‏@LIVENewsDesk

Statistics just out show 361 same sex couples married in NZ from Aug to Dec 2013 – 1/3 of them were Australian

I haven’t noticed anything different about civilisation. I hope they have happy lives together.
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January 24, 2014 3:29pm
Fletch

I haven’t noticed anything different about civilisation. I hope they have happy lives together.

You’ll be saying the same thing about multiple-partner marriages in a few years.
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January 24, 2014 4:02pm
chiz

Manolo:

Didn’t know God was a scientist: http://www.nationaljournal.com/technology/pope-francis-in-social-media-message-calls-internet-a-gift-from-god-20140123

Maybe he was referring to St Gore? He helped invent the internet dontcha know!
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January 24, 2014 4:04pm
big bruv

“death penalty for this sub human…why do we let it live?”

Dunno, ask Toad or any of the other Greens who think that the best way to deal with scum like this is to give them a cuddle.
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January 24, 2014 4:53pm
Reid

I haven’t noticed anything different about civilisation. I hope they have happy lives together.

Pete how many times does it have to be explained to you that most social engineering works on timescales of 20-40-60 years before it finally sinks in? They have to do it like that so the frog doesn’t realise it’s being boiled.

Not all social engineering is on that timescale however. Here’s another example of much more immediate social engineering, the subtleties of which I imagine will quite pass you by. Until your granddaughters start acting like Miley does now, when your granddaughters are 12. Because it’s “cool.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/miley-cyrus-the-one-outfit-not-even-her-manager-approves-of-9062503.html
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January 24, 2014 5:04pm
Fletch

PC bullshit. Cookies on Sesame Street no more because there is an “obesity epidemic”. Now they are changing the show to bring the focus more on fruit and vegetables.

http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/obesity-fears-force-cookie-monster-cut-back-5806841
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January 24, 2014 5:05pm
dime

Fletch – the cookie monster is already in rehab

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k95hkoLxENY
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January 24, 2014 5:13pm
Pauleastbay

Why do politicians pay homage to the cult of Ratana but don’t do so for many other cults?

The guy had visions and he has our entire Parliament running after him.
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January 24, 2014 5:19pm
nickb

Lol dime

BTW – about to watch 2nd episode of true detective…first one was promising
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January 24, 2014 5:22pm
kowtow

The multicultural chickens come home to roost and it’s happening across Europe ,in Oz and here too,but the media don’t really want to run with it.They prefer Beiber stories.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2544939/British-student-arrested-Heathrow-16-000-hidden-knickers-Syrian-fighters.html
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January 24, 2014 5:44pm
stephieboy

Pat Condell gets to grips about Islam vs Jews and says it like it needs to be said.
A couple of the numerous valid points he makes will do for starters.
Jews whether we like or not have contributed disproportionately to the number of Nobel Prizes awarded in the fields of Physics, Medicine , Biochemistry and other hard sciences.Islam hasn’t.!
He makes the observation that unfounded and absurd claims that a jewish cabal is in control of the world manipulating the the world economy and finances. Pat Condell notes that even if it were true ( which is not ) he would esther that than ruled by a bunch of fundamentalist Islamic jihaddists.
And anyone who believes fantasies about conspiracies of Jewish domination and control of the word need to visit their Doctor.B
But maybe not a Jewish one ,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIesXORjBps
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January 24, 2014 5:52pm
nasska

stephieboy

Anywhere religion has the upper hand, progress stalls & superstition trumps science. It occurred in Europe during the Dark Ages when the RC church reigned supreme & presently it is the turn of the poor unfortunates who live under the mullahs.

About 75% of Muslims are illiterate & at the mercy of their better educated religious leaders. Small wonder that the clerical hierarchy are not exactly pushing education when they’ve got the peasants where they want them.
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January 24, 2014 6:27pm
Fletch

It occurred in Europe during the Dark Ages when the RC church reigned supreme & presently it is the turn of the poor unfortunates who live under the mullahs.

You need more education The RC church kept science safe during the so-called “dark ages”. The Church also established the first universities, were scientists (the Jesuit preists), formed the basis for international law and economics, started the first hospitals and on and on.

The term “Dark Ages” was once applied to the entire millennium separating the period of late antiquity from the Renaissance. Nowadays, there is widespread acknowledgment of the accomplishments of the High Middle Ages.

As David Knowles points out, scholars have begun more and more to push the “Dark Age” designation back still further, excluding the eighth, ninth, and tenth centuries from that dubious distinction. Still, there can be little doubt that the sixth and seventh centuries were marked by cultural and intellectual retrogression, in terms of education, literary output, and similar indicators.

Was that the Church’s fault? Historian Will Durant – an agnostic – defended the Church against this charge decades ago, placing blame for the decline not on the Church, which did everything it could to reverse it, but on the barbarian invasions of late antiquity. “The basic cause of cultural retrogression,” Durant explained, “was not Christianity but barbarism; not religion but war. The human inundations ruined or impoverished cities, monasteries, libraries, schools, and made impossible the life of the scholar or the scientist. Perhaps the destruction would have been worse had not the Church maintained some measure of order in a crumbling civilization.”‘

But even if the monasteries’ contribution to education had been merely to teach their own how to read and write, that would have been no small accomplishment. When the Mycenaean Greeks suffered a catastrophe in the twelfth century B.C.-an invasion by the Dorians, say some scholars-the result was three centuries of complete illiteracy known as the Greek Dark Ages. Writing simply disappeared amid the chaos and disorder.

But the monks’ commitment to reading, writing, and education ensured that the same terrible fate that had befallen the Mycenaean Greeks would not be visited upon Europeans after the fall of the Roman Empire. This time, thanks to the monks, literacy would survive political and social catastrophe. Monks did more than simply preserve literacy. Even an unsympathetic scholar could write of monastic education: “They studied the songs of heathen poets and the writings of historians and philosophers. Monasteries and monastic schools blossomed forth, and each settlement became a center of religious life as well as of education.””

Another unsympathetic chronicler wrote of the monks, “They not only established the schools, and were the schoolmasters in them, but also laid the foundations for the universities. They were the thinkers and philosophers of the day and shaped the political and religious thought. To them, both collectively and individually, was due the continuity of thought and civilization of the ancient world with the later Middle Ages and with the modern period.””

Thomas E. Woods. How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization
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January 24, 2014 7:40pm
nasska

Fletch

…”You need more education The RC church kept science safe during the so-called “dark ages”. The Church also established the first universities, were scientists, formed the basis for international law and economics, started the first hospitals and on and on.”….

Mere propaganda. What science did they keep “safe”? The era was filled with wars fought by a Vatican Army funded by the sale of indulgences, persecution of scientists who didn’t kowtow to the church & enlightened practises such as witch burning.

Only when the British monarchy had a gutsful of the interference & kicked the papal arse for touch did an age of enlightenment evolve.
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January 24, 2014 7:52pm
Fletch

During the period of European history often called the Dark Ages which followed the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, Church scholars and missionaries played a vital role in preserving knowledge of Classical Learning. While the Roman Empire and Christian religion survived in an increasingly Hellenised form in the Byzantine Empire centred at Constantinople in the East, Western civilisation suffered a collapse of literacy and organisation following the fall of Rome in 476AD. Monks sought refuge at the far fringes of the known world: like Cornwall, Ireland, or the Hebrides. Disciplined Christian scholarship carried on in isolated outposts like Skellig Michael in Ireland, where literate monks became some of the last preservers in Western Europe of the poetic and philosophical works of Western antiquity.[60] By around 800AD they were producing illuminated manuscripts such as the Book of Kells, by which old learning was re-communicated to Western Europe. The Hiberno-Scottish mission led by Irish and Scottish monks like St Columba spread Christianity back into Western Europe during the Middle Ages, establishing monasteries through Anglo-Saxon England and the Frankish Empire during the Middle Ages.
Thomas Cahill, in his 1995 book How the Irish Saved Civilization, credited Irish Monks with having “saved” Western Civilization:[61]

“ [A]s the Roman Empire fell, as all through Europe matted, unwashed barbarians descended on the Roman cities, looting artifacts and burning books, the Irish, who were just learning to read and write, took up th great labor of copying all western literature – everything they could lay their hands on. These scribes then served as conduits through which the Greco-Roman and Judeo-Christian cultures were transmitted to the tribes of Europe, newly settled amid the rubble and ruined vineyards of the civilization they had overwhelmed. Without this Service of the Scribes, everything that happened subsequently would be unthinkable. Without the Mission of the Irish Monks, who single-handedly re-founded European civilization throughout the continent in the bays and valleys of their exile, the world that came after them would have been an entirely different one-a world without books. And our own world would never have come to be. ”

According to art historian Kenneth Clarke, for some five centuries after the fall of Rome, virtually all men of intellect joined the Church and practically nobody in western Europe outside of monastic settlements had the ability to read or write. While church scholars at different times also destroyed classical texts they felt were contrary to the Christian message, it was they, virtually alone in Western Europe, who preserved texts from the old society.[60]
As Western Europe became more orderly again, the Church remained a driving force in education, with Cathedral schools beginning in the Early Middle Ages as centers of advanced education, often evolving into the medieval universities which were the springboard of many of Western Europe’s later achievements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Western_civilization
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January 24, 2014 7:54pm
nasska

More propaganda! 🙂
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January 24, 2014 8:00pm
nasska

The difference between poetry and prose:

A woman at the seaside
Walking on the front
Went into the water
It came up to her knees.

That’s prose, if she had gone in another foot it would have been poetry.
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January 24, 2014 8:00pm
kowtow

nasska is so bigoted he’s prepared to believe the Enlightenment arose from HenryVIII ‘s divorce and rift with Rome?
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January 24, 2014 8:11pm
stephieboy

Fletch ,you only present a partial account of how the essential and fundamental principles of Western culture and civilization were preserved and transmitted after the fall of Rome 476 AD that ushered in the so called ” Dark Ages”
It was in fact the Byzantine Civilization that made a significant contribution in ensuring that the great works and ideas of classical antiquity (Greece and Rome ) were preserved and passed on. That along with Christianity, and Judaism become the two pillars of our Civilization,.

“…, it was Byzantium that preserved for us today the great gifts of the classical world. Of the 55,000 ancient Greek texts in existence today, some 40,000 were transmitted to us by Byzantine scribes. And it was the Byzantine Empire that shielded Western Europe from invasion until it was ready to take its own place at the center of the world stage. Filled with unforgettable stories of emperors, generals, and religious patriarchs, as well as fascinating glimpses into the life of the ordinary citizen, Lost to the West reveals how much we owe to this empire that was the equal of any in its achievements, appetites, and enduring legacy.”

http://www.amazon.com/Lost-West-Forgotten-Byzantine-Civilization/dp/0307407969
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January 24, 2014 8:37pm
Reid

Fletch ,you only present a partial account of how the essential and fundamental principles of Western culture and civilization were preserved and transmitted after the fall of Rome 476 AD that ushered in the so called ” Dark Ages”

Yeah how dare you Fletch. I know it was only a blog post and you weren’t attempting the full exposition of the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire but still, impressionable people might not understand this…

Let’s hope next time you insert the appropriate disclaimer, along with lots of ibids and op cits, they always impress and add tremendous value, ad infinitum.
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January 24, 2014 9:04pm
nasska

What are you trying to do to us Reid….the last time Fletch took advice like that to heart he cut & pasted War & Peace by mistake. 🙂
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January 24, 2014 9:07pm
Reid

OK better change the subject then.

Apparently, Facebook’s user uptake rate looks exactly like an infectious disease.

http://bigthink.com/think-tank/researchers-say-facebook-will-die-off-like-an-infectious-disease

This probably explains why Zuckerberg’s been selling off his shares as fast as he can. As fast as he can without anyone noticing, that is. Zuckerberg. That’s not a Jewish name, is it?
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January 24, 2014 9:29pm
SPC

kowtow, yes the enlightenment began in Europe, not the UK, and before the rift between the Crown of England and Rome.

But the division of the Church undermined the capacity of the established religion in Europe to suppress it, thus nasska has a point.
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January 24, 2014 10:17pm
Rowan

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11191610

This is just wrong, Mr Hope is hardly ‘media’ and its not as if Watson is a high security prisoner, I don;t see why Olivias father shouldn’t be able to visit him. The conviction stinks anyway, there is no convincing evidence in the case at all, just another f…up by the justice system and a pathetic investigation by DS Pope
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January 24, 2014 10:23pm
SPC

And the real development of European civilisation, as we know today, it began when people became literate. In this Europe trailed Jews (who had done this for 3000 years).

It occurred first in northern Europe, because the people sought to read the bible for themselves and in their own language – the fruit of the Reformation. This developed the market for education through published books, rather than just for the few allowed into universities – universities controlled by established religion.
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January 24, 2014 10:58pm
kowtow

SPC
Enlightenment came long after HenryVIII.

stephieboy; the Byzantines were Christian.
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January 24, 2014 11:03pm
SPC

kowtow,

1. the enlightenment was a development that followed the arrival of works from Byzantine (on its fall mid 1400’s) into Western Europe.
2. These were printed in volume because of the development of printing in the 1400’s.
3. Because of the Reformation there was interest in reading the bible in the local language (the Catholic Church restricted it to Latin).
4.see 2.
5. Those in universities could read the works of Greece and playwrights could build their works on knowledge of the Greek theatre heritage.
6. The common people could read the bible for themselves – a bible provided by their churches.
7. It only required libraries for the people to also read the works of those who went to university – to popularise non religious/secular ideas.

The enlightenment was built on ground that was in process before the separation of the C of E and the Catholic Church.

It was built on ideas that Anne Boleyn read in the French court in the 1520’s.
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January 24, 2014 11:18pm
SPC

kowtow, re the Byzantines, while they had the Greek books they did not have printing so dissemination of the ideas and debate of the ideas was limited – more so when a Christian state with an established religion could suppress that debate easily.
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January 24, 2014 11:33pm

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