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January 1, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 1 January 2014

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General Debate

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TheContrarian

The link seems broken from this end
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January 1, 2014 6:14pm
Ryan Sproull

OK Ryan, read the transcript and address the argument he raises.

The “my Microsoft friend told me that DNA gives him a eerie feeling” argument? In the interview where the interviewer actually says that if you refute a Creator dictating a moral code for the universe, “You’ve undermined the foundation of the American Revolution”?

This isn’t an interview, Reid, it’s an infomercial.

Evolution accounts for minor improvements in an organism, it cannot and never did pretend to account for how life began, and no-one has done that yet. Darwin didn’t pretend his theory accounted for that, and no-one else has managed to, either.

Therefore, how did life begin?

I’ll eagerly await your erudite exposition. You could win a Nobel Prize, you know.

I don’t know how life began, and neither do you or Stephen C Meyer.

I can talk you through some interesting current hypotheses for abiogenesis on Earth, but only if you’re sufficiently interested in the topic.
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January 1, 2014 6:15pm
Reid

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/how-dna-proves-god-made-all-creatures-great-and-small
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January 1, 2014 6:15pm
dirty harry

lol..no new years celebration in wellington last nite but instead a picnic today which got rained out..

Go CWB you loser.
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January 1, 2014 6:17pm
Pete George

I looked at it reid. I’ve looked at it some more, via an actual paleontologist who calls it STEPHEN MEYER’S FUMBLING BUMBLING AMATEUR CAMBRIAN FOLLIES.

Stephen Meyer’s first demonstration of these biases was his atrociously incompetent book Signature in the Cell (2009, HarperOne), which was universally lambasted by molecular biologists as an amateurish effort by someone with no firsthand training or research experience in molecular biology.

(Meyer’s Ph.D. is in history of science, and his undergrad degree is in geophysics, which give him absolutely no background to talk about molecular evolution).

Undaunted by this debacle, Meyer now blunders into another field in which he has no research experience or advanced training: my own profession, paleontology. I can now report that he’s just as incompetent in my field as he was in molecular biology.

Almost every page of this book is riddled by errors of fact or interpretation that could only result from someone writing in a subject way over his head, abetted by the creationist tendency to pluck facts out of context and get their meaning completely backwards.

A detailed review of the book is here:

The conclusion:

Finally, I should note an interesting phenomenon. The creationist community gave the book a huge buildup in their circles, and got their acolytes to pre-order the book in huge numbers, so it was #7 on the New York Times Best Seller List when it was released.

Since its release, however, it has plummeted in sales, probably because once the Young-Earth Creationists read it, they’ll realize it is full of ideas they don’t support, like “millions of years.” I watched its sales ranking on Amazon.com go from near the top, to (currently) around #11,000 or lower on the ranking of best sellers—in just over a month!

The most satisfying thing, however, is that initially Amazon.com put it in their “Paleontology” category. But just a week ago, they removed it and moved it to “Religion & Science.” Apparently, the huge negative backlash from REAL paleontologists made them reassess it. Now if they could only move it over to “Fiction”, where it truly belongs…

“Religion & Science” is a strange category when promoters of intelligent design are involved.
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January 1, 2014 6:18pm
Harriet

If seen spiders on our clothsline design things far better than I’ve seen most grown men and women design things. And that ‘breed’ of spiders can ALL do that.

No I don’t think that man is the most intelligent being in the universe. Or a committee of men too for that matter.

God exists.
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January 1, 2014 6:19pm
wat dabney

“how did life begin?”

It’s not clear how life on Earth began, therefore pixie!

Brilliant.
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January 1, 2014 6:19pm
TheContrarian

Not knowing how life sparked =/= intelligent design.

Intelligent design is a dishonest cloak for special creationism so irrespective of life being granted by an intelligent designer or through naturalistic processes the current ID movement is a cynical PR campaign to muddy the waters of real scientific debate and introduce a supernatural creator – which, as evidenced by the ID proponents, is the god of Christendom. It can therefor be disregarded as it isn’t about introducing new ideas but repackaging old ones. Not for scientific reasons but for societal ones. ID isn’t about investigating the origins of life, it’s about introducing religious ideals.

“God exists.”

Which God, Harriet?
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January 1, 2014 6:20pm
Johnboy

Quite right Harriet. I asked my wife and she said that a committee of women would know slightly less than she did! 🙂
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January 1, 2014 6:21pm
Pauleastbay

Jb

Enfeebled as I am I managed, had to, funeral
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January 1, 2014 6:22pm
Reid

This isn’t an interview, Reid, it’s an infomercial….I don’t know how life began, and neither do you or Stephen C Meyer.

In your opinion Ryan and one assumes the material is in the book, doesn’t one.

And from the interview, Ryan doesn’t claim to know, he simply claims it’s most unlikely it just all happens by accident and points out Darwin never claimed he knew, either.

IMO, if you don’t know that answer, then how the fuck do you know whether or not there’s a intelligent designer? And if you don’t know that, then how can you be so very confident there isn’t one? Isn’t it much more sensible and reasonable to keep an open mind, rather than concluding one way or the other?

I can talk you through some interesting current hypotheses for abiogenesis on Earth, but only if you’re sufficiently interested in the topic.

No I’m not really, because before I start on those, I’m going to need to familiarise myself with intricate details of cell biology which will take me years, otherwise I’m not in a position to assess the veracity, and that urge hasn’t yet struck me. But I’m assuming you have, since you seem confident in your position, so why don’t you submit an application to the Nobel Committee and claim this year’s biology prize, since no other scientist has succeeded where you have?
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January 1, 2014 6:25pm
wat dabney

What causes thunder?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_thunder_gods
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January 1, 2014 6:26pm
Johnboy

Travelling behind the hearse at 40kph probably saved a silly old codger like you from most of the dreadful hazards on the road these days PEB, like Policemen hiding in bushes, watching your speedo too much to ensure you don’t get to 5kph over and those silly little white crosses that distract a fellow from watching the road! 🙂
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January 1, 2014 6:27pm
Ryan Sproull

We may not know how life began on Earth (and can never know, short of time travel), what we do know is this:

At every point in history where there was a supernatural explanation and no natural explanation, the supernatural explanation has been soundly beaten by natural explanations once they are discovered.

Rainbows – God’s promise in the sky? Nope, refraction.
Lightning – angry god blowing up trees? Nope, atmospheric static electricity.
Illness – demons punishing families for being naughty? Nope, bacteria and viruses.

And so on. Supernatural explanations fall and fall and fall, and the God of the Gaps gets smaller and smaller. Now we have something that happened in the incredibly distant past, something it’s literally impossible ever to be certain of, and we’re told – “You don’t know for sure how it happened, so you can’t tell me God didn’t do it.”

Presumably it was just bad luck that throughout history, those who favoured supernatural explanations over natural ones have been wrong every single time, and just plain great luck that there’s this one final little nook of phenomena whose supernatural explanation can never be replaced with a certain natural explanation.

“Sure, we were wrong about lightning and disease and rainbows and the age of the earth and everything else, but THIS! This is the REAL TEST – the origin of life is what we REALLY meant has a supernatural explanation and no natural one.”
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January 1, 2014 6:28pm
Harriet

“God exists.”

Which God, Harriet?

—————————–

As I pointed out – compared with that breed of spiders – man is fallable.

I believe in my God – the Lord Jesus Christ. Other humans are the fallable ones.
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January 1, 2014 6:29pm
TheContrarian

Why so sure, Harriet?
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January 1, 2014 6:32pm
Ryan Sproull

No I’m not really, because before I start on those, I’m going to need to familiarise myself with intricate details of cell biology which will take me years, otherwise I’m not in a position to assess the veracity, and that urge hasn’t yet struck me. But I’m assuming you have, since you seem confident in your position, so why don’t you submit an application to the Nobel Committee and claim this year’s biology prize, since no other scientist has succeeded where you have?

As above, Reid. I am technically open to the possibility of a supernatural explanation for the origin of life, but it would be irrational for me to ignore the fact that every other supernatural explanation has turned out to be vastly inferior to natural explanations. I also don’t buy Lotto tickets.
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January 1, 2014 6:32pm
wat dabney

The magic pixie called Yahweh/Jesus begs us not to follow other gods.

What other gods would they be?

And do they exhibit the same psychotic cruelty of Yahweh/Jesus?
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January 1, 2014 6:35pm
eszett

Other humans are the fallable ones.

Does that include yourself and your belief in your specific god, Harry?
Are you fallible and could you be completely wrong about him?
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January 1, 2014 6:38pm
Harriet

“…why so sure Harriet…”

I’d rather leave the next generation with some wisdom and morals – so that they too can handle their fallable ways.

Sexual shannagins and other ‘choices’ won’t suffice in place of that.

I have ‘faith’ that things will keep getting as better as they can for all of us ‘fallable humans’.

The Teachings of God for the last few thousand years gives me that faith. Occasional Public addresses from Wellington don’t.
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January 1, 2014 6:39pm
graham

TheContrarian – My use of the term “Intelligent Design” was a mistake, I keep forgetting that this label is assigned to a quite specific belief. Sorry for any confusion.

I should have said that I believe God created us, and the universe, in the beginning.
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January 1, 2014 6:41pm
nasska

….”I believe in my God – the Lord Jesus Christ.”…..

Harriet’s no wank 2014 resolution has already gone tits up. 🙂
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January 1, 2014 6:43pm
Longknives

I love mentioning this when lefties are loudly rubbishing religion and hero-worshipping Charles Darwin-

“Ashore, Darwin’s disparaging eye found much to disdain. Compared to the Tahitians’ “pleasant, airy abodes”, Maori whare, which Darwin likened to “a cow-shed with one end open” were “filthily dirty & offensive”. As specimens of humanity, Tahitians were “the finest men I have ever beheld”, he wrote. New Zealanders (as Darwin referred to Maori—that word not yet being in wide circulation) possessed a character of “a much lower order”. “One glance at their respective expressions,” noted the naturalist, “brings conviction to the mind that one is a savage, the other a civilised man”.

Heh Heh…
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January 1, 2014 6:45pm
Reid

We may not know how life began on Earth

But if you don’t know that then how do you “know” without any doubt that it evolved without intervention?

You believe what you believe because you want to believe it Ryan. But there is no science to back you up, unless you chose to believe in a series of fantastically improbable statistical occurrences, and that’s not science, that’s faith.

I have a faith in a Creator. The only difference between you and I is, I admit that my faith is based in faith. You believe there is no Creator, but until you can answer that question of precisely how life and ultimately, you, were created, you are forced to admit that the evidence that you have for your faith is as ethereal as mine is. The only difference is, I admit my evidence is ethereal, but you can’t, because doing so destroys your hypothesis. It doesn’t however destroy mine, because faith is what my hypothesis is based on.

Question for you: if evolution is all there is, how come we all have a conscience? What possible evolutionary value is that, to us? And don’t say to procreate, since surely from an evolutionary perspective the survival of the species would benefit from a whole race of implacable, ruthless warriors who kept a genetically pure harem. So where does that human trait come from?
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January 1, 2014 6:45pm
Ryan Sproull

And what kind of tiny, boring, irrelevant God is it that provides a supernatural explanation for one thing (origin of life) and natural explanations for every other damned thing? Why this obsession with fitting God into a materialistic definition of what’s a good reason to believe that something exists?

Apologists whittle away at God by grasping desperately at an ever-decreasing number of things science can’t explain, and come up with long and involved cerebral explanations for why it’s actually really okay for an intelligent person to believe in God, and what they’re left with is this boring, dry, washed-out mathematical formula of a thing that is supposed to evoke awe and passion and love.

Just don’t bother. I get that it’s people like Meyer’s job to do it, just like it’s people like Dawkins’ job to argue the opposite, but it’s a pretty barren and tiny piece of territory that ends up being at stake.
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January 1, 2014 6:50pm
Johnboy

Longknives. I wonder what Darwin would have said if he had popped into a HNZ house in Farmer Cres. before the demolition crews dealt to the place? 🙂
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January 1, 2014 6:52pm
nasska

Reid

Conscience is based on learned behaviours. It is a social development which makes living in groups possible.

Anything that enables humans to live together as a society makes that particular group stronger & evolution is the survival of the strongest.
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January 1, 2014 6:54pm
Harriet

Other humans are the fallable ones.

Does that include yourself and your belief in your specific god, Harry?
Are you fallible and could you be completely wrong about him?

——————————

That’s what holding ‘belief’ is all about for people from most religions. ‘Their’ religion and God is ‘the’ religion and God.

Yes I am fallible – we all are.

There’s nothing wrong with religion in general as it simply helps people cope with their time in this world.You leave this world in ‘good order’ for the next generations by following your religion and you will be rewarded by entering the next world.

A bit of Christianity in all people doesn’t hurt anyone.
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January 1, 2014 6:55pm
TheContrarian

” if evolution is all there is, how come we all have a conscience? What possible evolutionary value is that, to us?”

I can answer that. By working together we thrive and to work together we must treat each other honestly and with conscience. Like a bee hive or an ant colony. They all work together to further their species.
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January 1, 2014 6:57pm
Johnboy

I’m happy to insert my bit of Christianity in most female folks that feel as though they are missing a bit Harriet! 🙂
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January 1, 2014 6:58pm
nasska

….”and you will be rewarded by entering the next world.”….

The promised sky cake! 🙂
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January 1, 2014 6:58pm
Johnboy

But of course Contrarian. One of the bee’s or ant’s has to be the Queen. There in lies the problem! 🙂
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January 1, 2014 7:00pm
Harriet

“….Anything that enables humans to live together as a society makes that particular group stronger & evolution is the survival of the strongest….”

So now Nasska the homophobe has started of the year suggesting that gays have no place in evolution and therefor, the weakest of all!

nice. 😎
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January 1, 2014 7:01pm
Harriet

The promised sky cake!

No.

Beer. 😎
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January 1, 2014 7:04pm
Ryan Sproull

But if you don’t know that then how do you “know” without any doubt that it evolved without intervention?

Reid, are you even reading what I’m saying? Past the first line? Try it again, because you keep repeating this assertion despite me repeatedly saying that…

…I’m not saying I know without a doubt that life on Earth arose without God or gods or aliens intervening. What I’m saying is that every other time in history there’s been a supernatural explanation for something, natural explanations have superseded them once discovered. All you’ve done is found one thing that can, by its very nature, never be naturally explained for certain and declared an unprecedented victory for supernatural explanations.

You believe what you believe because you want to believe it Ryan. But there is no science to back you up, unless you chose to believe in a series of fantastically improbable statistical occurrences, and that’s not science, that’s faith.

What exactly do you think I have asserted, Reid? Can you quote me? Give me a link to where I talked about a series of occurrences, improbable or otherwise?

I have a faith in a Creator. The only difference between you and I is, I admit that my faith is based in faith. You believe there is no Creator, but until you can answer that question of precisely how life and ultimately, you, were created, you are forced to admit that the evidence that you have for your faith is as ethereal as mine is. The only difference is, I admit my evidence is ethereal, but you can’t, because doing so destroys your hypothesis. It doesn’t however destroy mine, because faith is what my hypothesis is based on.

That’s genuinely irrational, Reid, and shows a complete disrespect for truth. It is not true that in the absence of certainty any explanation is as good as another. I am quite happy to say that I don’t know how life arose on earth. I know of some good theories of how it could have arisen without aliens or gods, but I have no problem with not knowing for sure something that is impossible to know for sure.

Question for you: if evolution is all there is, how come we all have a conscience? What possible evolutionary value is that, to us? And don’t say to procreate, since surely from an evolutionary perspective the survival of the species would benefit from a whole race of implacable, ruthless warriors who kept a genetically pure harem. So where does that human trait come from?

Okay, so we’re talking about evolution now? Not the origin of life, which as you yourself said is a different matter?

Okay, then. The evolutionary value of what you call a conscience – impulses to act some ways rather than other ways in our dealings with others – is that groups of humans who look after each other and work cooperatively are more likely to survive and propagate than groups of humans who are purely selfish. That said, it seems to me that a person’s conscience is more a question of social evolution than biological evolution – children learn from their upbringing how to act in relation to others.

A “race of implacable, ruthless warriors who kept a genetically pure harem” would be a disaster for the propagation of the gene, at least compared to societies that work together cooperatively.
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January 1, 2014 7:04pm
nasska

….” that gays have no place in evolution and therefor, the weakest of all! “….

You should be nice to the poor bastards then Harriet. It’s also worth remembering that they were brought into the world by heterosexual people performing heterosexual acts…..perhaps that’s where the blame lies. 🙂
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January 1, 2014 7:05pm
Manolo

The Kenyans can keep the bastard paedophile! http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8778276/nzer-faces-trafficking-hearing-in-kenya
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January 1, 2014 7:08pm
Johnboy

Even Darwin would struggle to decide which part of the ladder of evolution to place the Gay folks on I suggest Harriet.

Perhaps you could enlighten us all with your great wisdom? 🙂
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January 1, 2014 7:08pm
wat dabney

Reid,

“Question for you: if evolution is all there is, how come we all have a conscience? What possible evolutionary value is that, to us? ”

‘Evolutionary Explanations for Altruism and Morality’
http://uchv.princeton.edu/workshops/DHVP/Kurzban.pdf

‘How Humans Became Moral Beings’
“In a new book, anthropologist Christopher Boehm traces the steps our species went through to attain a conscience ”
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/How-Humans-Became-Moral-Beings.html

“Morality: An Evolutionary Account”
http://www.sociology.uiowa.edu/nsfworkshop/JournalArticleResources/Krebs_MoralityEvolutionaryAccount_2008.pdf

I could go on.

A few seconds’ googling is all it takes.

But you prefer to remain in wilful ignorance.

Indeed, you are proud of it.
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January 1, 2014 7:09pm
Manolo

@Johnboy: Is it Beefeaters, Tanqueray or Sapphire’s tonight?
For a man of your discriminating taste I would expect a decent Speyside single malt as well.
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January 1, 2014 7:11pm
Reid

And what kind of tiny, boring, irrelevant God is it that provides a supernatural explanation for one thing (origin of life) and natural explanations for every other damned thing? Why this obsession with fitting God into a materialistic definition of what’s a good reason to believe that something exists? …it’s a pretty barren and tiny piece of territory that ends up being at stake.

Ryan if you don’t believe in God I’m guessing you haven’t studied the Bible. I don’t mean read it once, I mean, studied it. I doubt you’ve even read it once? And once is not enough, my friend. You need to read it hundreds of times to really, really understand it. But through God’s grace He allows us to learn it bit by bit if we approach it in the right heart and that means with a heart that’s not hardened.

If you approach The Library with a hardened heart you’ll take out of it what Kea has taken out of it, nothing but wrath, persecution and hatred. If you approach The Library with a heart of faith, asking God to open your mind to its mysteries, it will do that, but it won’t do that if you simply say the words but don’t mean them, in your heart.

When you read The Library like that vistas of new understanding will open up to you that surpass your wildest imagination and will answer all your questions and raise new ones until the day you pass from this life to whatever is next, but if you never do that but simply treat The Library as lip service, all of that will remain forever closed, just like someone who never leaves their small home town and your mind and your life will suffer accordingly.

That’s the main difference my friend, between someone who confines their mind to the world and what comparatively small and temporary pleasures it offers, and someone who looks toward the Heavens, for inspiration and answers.
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January 1, 2014 7:13pm
Pete George

Manolo seem to disappear when anyone asks you to actually state something rather than berate everyone. So you may have missed some questions, including:

What are your plans for this year, apart from your obsessions with Obama, Muslims, Maori, feminism and me? You never seem to state support for anything, you spend your time standing on the wall trying to piss on everyone. Weak.

Will you be considering any options? Be brave and actually state what politics and politicians you might support this year. Is there anyone?
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January 1, 2014 7:14pm
Johnboy

Being a poor fellow of limited means Manolo it was just a Gordons and having killed that this arvo it will merely be a Dewars to sustain my vitriol into this lovely evening that we are enjoying here in Wellytown! 🙂
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January 1, 2014 7:15pm
Manolo

Will you be considering any options? Be brave and actually state what politics and politicians you might support this year. Is there anyone?

A pertinent question, P.G. My answer: as a libertarian I always support those who promise to interfere less with my life and personal freedoms.

I despise busybodies and control-freaks, as much as those incapable of taking a stance and who prefer to go with the wind.
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January 1, 2014 7:18pm
Harriet

Ryan#

Happy New Year Ryan.

“…..Just don’t bother. I get that it’s people like Meyer’s job to do it, just like it’s people like Dawkins’ job to argue the opposite, but it’s a pretty barren and tiny piece of territory that ends up being at stake….’

The way I see it it all comes down to having faith and belief in the face of confusion. People of faith have faced these ‘tiny pieces’ since time immortal. It’s nothing new.

Religion is about the falleness of man and it is then mankind that is at stake. Ceasar OR God has always been the big piece. It always will be.
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January 1, 2014 7:19pm
Manolo

Being a poor fellow of limited means…

If Wainui’s farmer king of kings is poor, I must be destitute, a pauper.
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January 1, 2014 7:20pm
Pete George

That’s just vague cop-out waffle Manolo, ironic that you say “as much as those incapable of taking a stance”.

Who will you support? Anyone? Or do you oppose all current MPs and parties?
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January 1, 2014 7:20pm
Johnboy

“those who promise to interfere less with my life and personal freedoms.”

I never realised just how hard it must be to be a libertarian in Aotearoa ! 🙂
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January 1, 2014 7:21pm
Pete George

Religion is about the falleness of man and it is then mankind that is at stake. Ceasar OR God has always been the big piece. It always will be.

reid, can you read that hundreds of times to really, really understand it, and then explain it to the rest of us?
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January 1, 2014 7:22pm
Manolo

No, it’s not a cop-out. I’ll always go for a right-of-centre candidate. Never ever you’ll see me voting for a Luddite or a Labour socialist, whose ascent to power will damage our country’s economy.

Principles matter. Draw your own conclusions from it.
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January 1, 2014 7:25pm
Johnboy

It’s never been easy for a virtual sheep farmer since the stock retention scheme went Manolo! 🙂
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January 1, 2014 7:25pm
Manolo

The ever-growing state, a monster that never rests: http://thelead.blogs.cnn.com/2013/12/31/40000-new-laws-take-effect-in-2014/
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January 1, 2014 7:28pm
Reid

reid, can you read that hundreds of times to really, really understand it, and then explain it to the rest of us?

[fairreasonablesensible]Pete, that’s not very fair, reasonable or sensible, is it? How about you read The Library. Start with Genesis, end with Revelations. Repeat.

Newsflash. Harriet wasn’t quoting The Library.[/fairreasonablesensible]
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January 1, 2014 7:28pm
Ryan Sproull

Ryan if you don’t believe in God I’m guessing you haven’t studied the Bible. I don’t mean read it once, I mean, studied it. I doubt you’ve even read it once? And once is not enough, my friend. You need to read it hundreds of times to really, really understand it. But through God’s grace He allows us to learn it bit by bit if we approach it in the right heart and that means with a heart that’s not hardened.

I’m afraid that I cannot make myself believe things that do not seem true. I have read the Bible enough times to know that I do not find it convincing evidence of the existence of a personal God. If I have to read it a certain number of extra times or have to think a certain way before reading it, then it would seem that God has set things up so that I am unconvinced of his existence.

If you approach The Library with a hardened heart you’ll take out of it what Kea has taken out of it, nothing but wrath, persecution and hatred. If you approach The Library with a heart of faith, asking God to open your mind to its mysteries, it will do that, but it won’t do that if you simply say the words but don’t mean them, in your heart.

Yes, so the Muslims tell me about the Qu’ran, and the Hare Krishnas tell me about the Bhagavad Gita, and so on. My reply to you is the same as my reply to them – if agreeing with you first is a prerequisite for being convinced by your book, it’s not going to happen.

When you read The Library like that vistas of new understanding will open up to you that surpass your wildest imagination and will answer all your questions and raise new ones until the day you pass from this life to whatever is next, but if you never do that but simply treat The Library as lip service, all of that will remain forever closed, just like someone who never leaves their small home town and your mind and your life will suffer accordingly.

That’s the main difference my friend, between someone who confines their mind to the world and what comparatively small and temporary pleasures it offers, and someone who looks toward the Heavens, for inspiration and answers.

All very poetic. So, if this is your approach, why on earth do you care whether or not there is a supernatural explanation for the origin of life on earth? What would you lose if you were convinced tomorrow that a natural explanation for the origin of life on earth was most likely? It’s not like the Bible would stop doing whatever it apparently does to you, is it?
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January 1, 2014 7:29pm
RichardX

Harriet
You are an imbecile
Nothing I can say or do will change that
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January 1, 2014 7:31pm
Ryan Sproull

Happy New Year Ryan.

“…..Just don’t bother. I get that it’s people like Meyer’s job to do it, just like it’s people like Dawkins’ job to argue the opposite, but it’s a pretty barren and tiny piece of territory that ends up being at stake….’

The way I see it it all comes down to having faith and belief in the face of confusion. People of faith have faced these ‘tiny pieces’ since time immortal. It’s nothing new.

Religion is about the falleness of man and it is then mankind that is at stake. Ceasar OR God has always been the big piece. It always will be.

Happy New Year, Harriet!
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January 1, 2014 7:31pm
Johnboy

“Start with Genesis, end with Revelations. Repeat.”

You can be a very un-Christian like bugger at times Reid! 🙂
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January 1, 2014 7:32pm
Harriet

“….reid, can you read that hundreds of times to really, really understand it, and then explain it to the rest of us?…”

Or you could instead Pete:

ask an ex-soviet….ex Mao communist….ex Khampuchean….ex North Korean……it’s an endless and Godless list Pete.

Happy New Year too Pete. Entrust all is well with the kids and grandkids.
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January 1, 2014 7:33pm
Harriet

Yeah, I get that cynical Happy New Election Year comment.

I see DPF and the Herald are picking Mr Craig as a [ edit: much needed ] certainty. 😎
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January 1, 2014 7:36pm
Pete George

“I’ll always go for a right-of-centre candidate.”

That’s quite vague and non-commital, and a bit silly if the only right-of-centre candidates where say John Banks and Aaron Gilmore. But the electorate vote isn’t a big deal.

Is there any current party you would vote for?
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January 1, 2014 7:37pm
Johnboy

Have you managed to place the position of Gay folk on that evolutionary progression yet Harriet? 🙂
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January 1, 2014 7:37pm
nasska

This may help to fill in some of the gaps Reid. 🙂

Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/q6ytl8ht8vyjaem/Faith%2010.png
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January 1, 2014 7:37pm
Johnboy

At least you ain’t picking on the gays this time nasska! 🙂
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January 1, 2014 7:41pm
nasska

RichardX

….”Harriet
You are an imbecile”….

We all know that but since Baity’s done a runner the position of blog bitch is up for grabs…..to date our sexually confused & befuddled correspondent is the leading contender. 🙂
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January 1, 2014 7:42pm
Reid

I’m afraid that I cannot make myself believe things that do not seem true. I have read the Bible enough times to know that I do not find it convincing evidence of the existence of a personal God. If I have to read it a certain number of extra times or have to think a certain way before reading it, then it would seem that God has set things up so that I am unconvinced of his existence.

You mean you’ve dipped into it on the odd occasion, couldn’t understand it, and closed it again, don’t you. See if you had read it as I instructed you’d know it’s not God’s demonstration He exists for the benefit of the skeptical, you’d have drawn other conclusions. That’s how I can conclude “scientifically” that you haven’t read it as I instructed, Ryan. Isn’t that spooky. But I’m right, aren’t I.

if agreeing with you first is a prerequisite for being convinced by your book, it’s not going to happen.

Ryan it’s not me, it’s God you need first to agree with. The evidence is all around you He exists. The fact you don’t see it is why they call your condition a hardened heart, because it’s been closed, and you can open it, but no-one else can. You’re being instructed not to open it, which is why you’re so unusually aggressive over this small discussion.

…if this is your approach, why on earth do you care whether or not there is a supernatural explanation for the origin of life on earth?

I don’t care because I already know the answer Ryan. But I care about the truth being disseminated, which is why I originally posted the link that generated this discussion.
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January 1, 2014 7:46pm
Johnboy

Harriet could pop over to Wainui and I could introduce him to some really sweet sheep to sort out his gender probs. I have a couple of handsome rams and a mob of lovely ewes and he could make a decision once he has met them all! 🙂
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January 1, 2014 7:47pm
Harriet

“….We all know that but since Baity’s done a runner the position of blog bitch is up for grabs…..to date our sexually confused & befuddled correspondent is the leading contender….”

Yes…….

………All the commie fucken progs here want to bitchify the males who won’t submit themselves to secular humanism[read sodomy]

Ignorant backward hillbilly losers all of them…….are you and watty still getting it on? 😎
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January 1, 2014 7:49pm
Left Right and Centre

Where’s Nasska ? Where’s Kea gone to ? AWOL the son of a bitch !!

Dime – don’t be too cynical about new years resolutions. If you want to count my weight loss starting in Oct 2012 – achieved the goal in time for start of 2013 and maintained it ever since. It wasn’t a new year resolution in particular but if it helps you, you can call it one.

JB and PEB – keep going dudes – enjoy the everyday chatter and banter.

My downticks are worth five votes with some comments – HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!!!!

It’s 2014 but how long until there’s no more flat earther religious dipshits ?

Why is my local supermarket open on New Year’s Day ? Take the day off man – normal hours save one at each end – far out !! They’re on Facebook too – didn’t even need to phone them for the holiday hours. More loss of personal interaction, but in their case that’s not so bad.
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January 1, 2014 7:52pm
nasska

It was a bit of a challenge Harriet but you finally managed to give sodomy a mention. 🙂
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January 1, 2014 7:53pm
Don the Kiwi

But johnboy – would any of them be virgins? 🙂
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January 1, 2014 7:57pm
Johnboy

The rams are Don we don’t do sodomy at Wainui Hills……. Not till Harriet pops over that is! 🙂
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January 1, 2014 7:59pm
nasska

In ancient Greece (469 – 399 BC), Socrates was
well known for his wisdom.

One day the great philosopher came upon an acquaintance who said
excitedly,

“Socrates, do you know what I just heard about one of your
students?” Wait a moment,” Socrates replied. “Before telling
me anything I’d like you to pass a little test. It’s called the
Triple Filter Test.

Triple filter?”

“That’s right,” Socrates continued “Before you talk to me about
my student, it might be a good idea to take a moment and filter
what you’re going to say..

The first filter is Truth. Have you made absolutely sure that what
you are about to tell me is true?”

No,” the man said, “actually I just heard about it and …”

“All right,” said Socrates. “So you don’t really know if it’s true
or not. Now let’s try the second filter, the filter of Goodness.

Is what you are about to tell me about my student something good?”

“No, on the contrary …” .

“So,” Socrates continued, “you want to tell me something bad about
him, but you’re not certain it’s true. You may still pass the test
though, because there’s one filter left: the filter of Usefulness.

Is what you want to tell me about my student going to be useful
to me?”

“No, not really.”

“Well,” concluded Socrates, “if what you want to tell me is neither
true nor good nor even useful, why tell it to me at all?”

This is the reason Socrates was a great philosopher and held in
such high esteem.

It also explains why he never found out that Plato was banging
his wife.
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January 1, 2014 8:01pm
Left Right and Centre

Whoops – I’m blind – the doctor is in fact in today. Help me doctor Nazzie I’m blind !!
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January 1, 2014 8:04pm
Ryan Sproull

You mean you’ve dipped into it on the odd occasion, couldn’t understand it, and closed it again, don’t you.

No, Reid, I meant what I said.

More specifically, I mean that I spent many years reading it daily and seriously, along with any other good Christian literature I could get my hands on, from CS Lewis to Chesterton to John of the Cross to Augustine to RC Sproul and others; prayed daily and felt a genuine relationship with God through Christ; spent a lot of time arguing apologetics for theism in general and Christianity in particular; and spent two years studying to be a Christian minister at Carey Baptist Bible College, with some courses at the Catholic Institute of Theology.

Is what I mean.

if agreeing with you first is a prerequisite for being convinced by your book, it’s not going to happen.

Ryan it’s not me, it’s God you need first to agree with. The evidence is all around you He exists. The fact you don’t see it is why they call your condition a hardened heart, because it’s been closed, and you can open it, but no-one else can. You’re being instructed not to open it, which is why you’re so unusually aggressive over this small discussion.

I apologise if I’ve seemed aggressive. Sometimes my enjoyment of argument can sort of eclipse remembering there’s a person on the other end of it.

To understand what I’m saying, imagine a Muslim telling you that you have hardened your heart to Islam and if you could just read the Qu’ran with an open heart, you would realise that Allah is inviting you to abandon falsehood and enter into a relationship with Him.

…if this is your approach, why on earth do you care whether or not there is a supernatural explanation for the origin of life on earth?

I don’t care because I already know the answer Ryan. But I care about the truth being disseminated, which is why I originally posted the link that generated this discussion.

You already know the answer to how life originated on earth? Are you certain? Open to the possibility of being wrong?
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January 1, 2014 8:07pm
Harriet

“…..I’m afraid that I cannot make myself believe things that do not seem true. I have read the Bible enough times to know that I do not find it convincing evidence of the existence of a personal God. If I have to read it a certain number of extra times or have to think a certain way before reading it, then it would seem that God has set things up so that I am unconvinced of his existence….”

Do you have faith in anything at all Ryan?

Or do you sit about working out the probibility of chance on everything working or not working?

Last time I looked all the scientists at NASA checked, re-checked, and re-checked again that space vehicals were in good working order.

Then just before take-off they tell the media that “we have our fingers crossed”.

I bet the ones inside blessed themselves in the form of a cross too!

Science isn’t everything when it has the fallibility of man involved in the equation.

Religion deals with man – not science. And that is why a large proportion of scientists are religious. They understand that we need it.

No one takes social science seriously. 😎
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January 1, 2014 8:09pm
Left Right and Centre

Issues:

(1) Bad tenants that cause expensive damage and throw out of control parties etc. More powers to evict them with little to no notice in extreme cases. Remove them physically from property and lock them up if they refuse to comply.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/southern/9568645/Police-shut-down-New-Year-party

On the TV news it looked like a lot of the graffiti and damage was clearly been there for some time, not from one party. The whole house was a write-off and probably had been for quite some time before the cameras turned up to shoot the horror. I feel for the landlord and neighbours.

(2) Tobacco. More price hikes. Only the the well-off and those prepared to fork out a small fortune can keep the game going. Why are people quiting the ciggies ? Read a 101 economics book. People would quit petrol too if it jumped to $10 / litre. Just ask the 1970s.

(3) Effectively the lowest road toll ever in NZ in 2013. I’d like a breakdown of people that caused crashes divided into their economic decile number. You’d get the usual over-repped stats.
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January 1, 2014 8:10pm
RichardX

Reid
You think I am hallucinating
I think you are deluded
I don’t doubt your sincerity, just your sanity
Your ability to disregard any inconvenient science because it doesn’t fit with your interpretation of an old book is breath taking in its arrogance

To paraphrase Matt Dillahunty, I prefer to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible
The single most reliable source we have in determining what is true is science. Science does not require faith. The hypocrisy of using a statement like “You believe what you believe because you want to believe it” while disregarding scientific evidence is difficult to fathom

Considering your constant references to cognitive dissonance, I suggest the reason you state you are immune to it is that you have the ability to convince yourself that your beliefs are not contradictory by ignoring anything that may suggest such a contradiction

It is however a pointless discussion though as there is nothing I can say or any evidence that I can present that will change your beliefs
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January 1, 2014 8:13pm
Rowan

What an innings from Corey Anderson, that was incredible stuff. I don’t believe the windies would have chased that score down in 50 overs, let alone 21. Stuff Corey, he is looking like a younger Nathan Astle, Hopefully he will continue to improve and become a genuine NZ all rounder.
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January 1, 2014 8:14pm
RichardX

Harriet (3,290 comments) says:
January 1st, 2014 at 8:09 pm
Do you have faith in anything at all Ryan?
Or do you sit about working out the probibility of chance on everything working or not working?

Don’t be an imbecile Harriet
Check your definition of faith in the context of this discussion
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January 1, 2014 8:18pm
Left Right and Centre

The lesser highlights of running on new years eve – or any time for that matter….

Between 8pm – midnight I observed things such as….

(1) Bloke delivering junk mail. On new years eve late evening. (2) Bloke gets out of his reasonable looking small hatchback to sift through donations left outside a charity shop. To me that’s pretty low and shameless. (3) About ten teens at a park letting off fireworks. I think I saw someone from a house tell them what was going to happen next. (4) A house that looked like no-one home with their big garage door fully open. It’s almost right on the street. Later on it was finally closed.
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January 1, 2014 8:18pm
Ryan Sproull

Do you have faith in anything at all Ryan?

Or do you sit about working out the probibility of chance on everything working or not working?

I don’t believe anything, Harriet, but I have many suspicions.
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January 1, 2014 8:19pm
Rowan

Science gets a big fat fail when it tries to explain creation or evolution.
These your ancestors Ryan?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LzSX37C5J4
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January 1, 2014 8:22pm
Johnboy

Shattering news here. Particularly for you Reid. Brains of religious folk are thicker.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11180273

Us non religious folk are generally thicker in other anatomical regions I suspect! 🙂
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January 1, 2014 8:22pm
nasska

Mostly it’s the skin that thickens JB…..those of us who take the time to open the blinds for the Godwhacks sure need it. 🙂
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January 1, 2014 8:27pm
Harriet

Don’t be an imbecile Harriet
Check your definition of faith in the context of this discussion.

It’s the very same definition as it always is when the existence of God comes up. You don’t get another sort. You either have faith in his existance or not. But go ahead, give me another.
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January 1, 2014 8:33pm
Lucia Maria

Well, Johnboy,

It just goes to show that we aren’t spiritual beings having a physical existence, but instead our spirituality and physicality are intertwined.
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January 1, 2014 8:34pm
Harriet

…..those of us who take the time to open the blinds..

Ah ha……I see you are taking onboard what I said to you yesterday Nasska:

Walk in the light and not in the darkness!

Welcome aboard. 😎
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January 1, 2014 8:39pm
Left Right and Centre

It just goes to show that we aren’t spiritual beings having a physical existence, but instead our spirituality and physicality are intertwined.

Don’t use the non-word ‘phyiscality’. It’s American, and it’s been adopted by many a kiwi who doesn’t know the difference between themselves and an American. Usage is prevalent in rugby circles, but it’s a newer phenomenon. I can’t wait for rugby commentators to copy the American use of ‘athlete’ to describe any sportsperson. That will be next no doubt.

The way people use language gives clues as to who they are and what they get up to. In this case – a superstitious peasant who talks waffly shit through the wrong hole. Intelligent life in this form translates to the ability to brush their teeth and keep a vehicle on one side of the road and not a lot else.
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January 1, 2014 8:47pm
Left Right and Centre

And talking of American – NZ connections…. Steven Adams – young kiwi who has so far cracked the big-time in the NBA.

Well done. (1) How long is the TV sports news going to cover highlights of every single game he plays in ? The novelty is wearing thin.

(2) His kiwi accent, which way will it go ? Will he do a David Tua and adopt a fully American accent inside 6 – 12 months ? Or will he be more like Scott Dixon, who has acquired a kiwi – yank mix through the natural process of accent immersion – and still retains traces or most of his distinctly NZ flavour.

Such is the nature of this little country that there are plenty of NZders who play sport overseas. What are you going to do, show all of them every time they play sport that day ? No.
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January 1, 2014 8:55pm
RichardX

Harriet (3,292 comments) says:
January 1st, 2014 at 8:33 pm

It’s the very same definition as it always is when the existence of God comes up. You don’t get another sort. You either have faith in his existance or not. But go ahead, give me another.

Don’t be an imbecile Harriet

From http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/faith

Definition of faith in English
faith
Pronunciation: /feɪθ/
Translate faith | into French | into German | into Italian | into Spanish
noun
[mass noun]
1 complete trust or confidence in someone or something:
this restores one’s faith in politicians
2 strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof:
bereaved people who have shown supreme faith

Your example was clearly under definition 1 when the thread refers to definition 2
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January 1, 2014 8:55pm
Harriet

“……The way people use language gives clues as to who they are and what they get up to….

……. In this case – a superstitious peasant who talks waffly shit through the wrong hole. Intelligent life in this form translates to the ability to brush their teeth and keep a vehicle on one side of the road and not a lot else……”

The way people use language gives clues as to who they are and what they get up to….

In this case LRC………a spontanous fool. Intelligent life in this form translates to the ability to brush their cell and keep a plastic spoon on one side of their bowl and not a lot else……”

You need to slow down a bit LRC. 😎
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January 1, 2014 8:59pm
Left Right and Centre

Too funny – I’ve just turned off one of the swarms of adverts for the ceaseless ‘Boxing Day Sales’. It’s fucking January of the following year mate. Give it up.

For a limited time only ? It’s totally fucking mindless. Head-shaking numb white noise. How can it be for a limited time only ? It’s been going for a week for something observed by a mostly secular nation for one single day. It’s completely loopy.

Just keep going until Easter. It’s the Boxing Day Sale until the Easter Sale starts and keeps going into June.

Talking of Easter – how do you turn something that’s not terribly exciting into the greatest thing ever invented ? That’s right – turn every Easter-themed symbol into chocolate. And other yummy treats for fatties. Chocolate bunnies, chocolate eggs, chocolate for everyone !!
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January 1, 2014 9:07pm
Left Right and Centre

We’re all living in one form of prison cell or another Harry. Did you mean ‘spontaneous’? I can’t find anything for ‘spontanous’.

Brilliant comment Harry – are they all going to be of such high quality ? I want to see more works of genius from you.
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January 1, 2014 9:12pm
Harriet

“……Your example was clearly under definition 1 when the thread refers to definition 2……”

Harriet (3,293 comments) says:
January 1st, 2014 at 8:09 pm

[ryan] “…..I’m afraid that I cannot make myself believe things that do not seem true. I have read the Bible enough times to know that I do not find it convincing evidence of the existence of a personal God. If I have to read it a certain number of extra times or have to think a certain way before reading it, then it would seem that God has set things up so that I am unconvinced of his existence….”

Do you have faith in anything at all Ryan?

Or do you sit about working out the probibility of chance on everything working or not working?……..

……….Religion deals with man – not science. And that is why a large proportion of scientists are religious. They understand that we need it.

———————————-

Split hairs if you can.
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January 1, 2014 9:15pm
Steve (North Shore)

I think there are some who miss their medication today, well not miss, just misplaced.
New Years Day General Debate turned into yet another ‘Generaly Religious Debate’
Saw my fucking cock off, give it a rest ffs.
Now, where are Street, King, Cunliffe, Hone, and what are they doing with our TAX???
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January 1, 2014 9:28pm
RichardX

Harriet (3,294 comments) says:
January 1st, 2014 at 9:15 pm
And that is why a large proportion of scientists are religious. They understand that we need it.

Don’t be an imbecile Harriet

Have you any facts or citations to back up your assertions or are you just making up stuff again?
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January 1, 2014 9:35pm
Reid

Open to the possibility of being wrong?

Always.

What turned you, Ryan?

New Years Day General Debate turned into yet another ‘Generaly Religious Debate’

It was Pete’s fault, Steve. He wasn’t being fair, reasonable or sensible.
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January 1, 2014 9:51pm
Harriet

“…..Have you any facts or citations to back up your assertions or are you just making up stuff again?…”

I read about 6 months or so ago that threr are lots and lots and lots of people who are both scientists and religious.

No…….I can’t be bothered looking it up for you Richard.

Just give it some thought……….

Are all scientists not religious?

Are all religious people not scientists?

Have any children who went to religious schools in NZ never become scientists? Or did they all turn their back on religion when they took up uni science courses?

ect.
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January 1, 2014 9:53pm
Left Right and Centre

Nutrition of your average tall skinny white teen bloke…..

Cookie Time Chocolate Chunk 85g $2.29
Nice & Natural Nut Bar Almond 192g $2.60
Nice & Natural Chco Nut Apricot Bar 180g $2.60
Jack Links Stick Peppermint Beef 12g (impulse at checkout. Product at eyeline) X 2 @ 99c each
Kiwi Blue Still Water 1.5L $1.60
Goulburn Valley Peach 220g $2.20
Red Bull Drink Taurine 4 x 250ml. 2 packs. On special $6.20 each pack

These dudes won’t stay skinny into their 20s / 30s if they keep that up long-term. That’s just a big list of bullshit products !! Cha – ching for people who sell crap that no-one needs.

There’s nothing ‘nice & natural’ about those fucking muesli bars. 🙂
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January 1, 2014 10:01pm
RichardX

Don’t be an imbecile Harriet

Your opinions and generalisations are not facts, they are something you have made up

And as I have pointed out to you in the past, ect is meaningless
etc is an abbreviation for et cetera
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January 1, 2014 10:02pm

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