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December 3, 2013 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 3 December 2013

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General Debate

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wikiriwhis business

‘We are all, according to doctrine, born as “sinners.”

Absolutely. We inherited the sin nature from our first parents.

That only needs reading any newspaper to ascertain.

Infants and babies are sinless.

They certainly did not rail against Christ like the adults did.

Suffer the little children to come unto me Jesus said.

God preserves the pure.
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December 3, 2013 4:14pm
wat dabney

wiki,

“Absolutely. We inherited the sin nature from our first parents…Infants and babies are sinless.”

You are now simply contradicting yourself.

According to doctrine, babies are not sinless.

To assert otherwise is to reject the notion of original sin. And to reject that is to reject the whole point of the Jesus character as ‘saviour.’
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December 3, 2013 4:18pm
cha

I’m liking Frankie the pope.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1305052.htm
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December 3, 2013 4:19pm
wikiriwhis business

‘According to doctrine, babies are not sinless.’

Babies are not responsible.

Have you heard of the concept of grace that sets the Christian faith apart from all others.

How else could Christ have forgiven the adultress and to cast the first stone at her who is without sin.
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December 3, 2013 4:22pm
nasska

Give it a break Wiki…..you’re thinking of the soft fluffy New Testament stories beloved of hippies everywhere. Read the OT where they don’t piss around with that namby pamby innocence crap.

There they grab the ankle biters from their mothers arms & dash their brains out on rocks.

Harden up! 🙂
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December 3, 2013 4:23pm
wat dabney

wiki,

“Babies are not responsible.”

You are rejecting original sin, the central concept of the Bible and the very reason for the Jesus character to make his appearance.

As I said, you are simply making up your own feel-good shit.

You are not Christian in any meaningful sense.
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December 3, 2013 4:24pm
wikiriwhis business

‘Read the OT …’

I study the OT deeply. We are not though in the OT age any more.

But even then God honoured the faith of foreigners.

The goodness of God is documented soundly in the psalms and Isaiah as two examples of the OT.
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December 3, 2013 4:26pm
wikiriwhis business

‘“Babies are not responsible.”

You are rejecting original sin,’

you are rejecting the goodness of God you have no idea, concept or experience of.

Only that you still breath and even prosper according to his mercies
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December 3, 2013 4:29pm
wat dabney

wiki,

“ The goodness of God is documented soundly in the psalms and Isaiah as two examples of the OT.”

Is Yahweh’s goodness also documented in the supposed fact that he murdered virtually everyone in the entire world by drowning them and engaged in murderous racial wars of ethnic cleansing?

For 10 points: Can anyone name any other mythical character who is more evil than the Yahweh/Jesus character from the Bible?
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December 3, 2013 4:30pm
wikiriwhis business

tis a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10.31

I won’t make any excuses about that.
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December 3, 2013 4:37pm
thedavincimode

Pope Francis also gave a bit of advice, saying it was important to be nice and good and to be a good example for others.

That message doesn’t seem to be seeping down under to one of his NZ parishioners.
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December 3, 2013 4:48pm
nasska

That’s a bit tough Davinci….the parishioner in question has recently had his face forcibly removed from its normal repository, i.e. Baity’s arse.

We’ll have to cut him some slack until he adjusts. 🙂
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December 3, 2013 4:53pm
mandk

wat dabney @ 1.24:

“Perhaps you could do the maths for us and work out approximately how many hundreds of millions of children the Yahweh/Jesus character has got burning right this minute?”

If you were familiar with the teachings of Jesus, you would know that the answer is zero.

Indeed, Jesus taught that being like a little child is a pre-requisite for entering the kingdom of heaven. See Matt 18.3 and Matt 19.4
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December 3, 2013 4:55pm
cha

Frankie isn’t too popular with some.
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December 3, 2013 4:57pm
nasska

The progs can chalk up another win cha. Today the Vatican…..tomorrow the World.

Poor Baity. 🙂
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December 3, 2013 5:01pm
Gulag1917

‘The modern world is like a train full of ammunition running in the fog on a moonless night with its lights out.’
— Robert Ardrey
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December 3, 2013 5:02pm
Sofia

Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven.
– Matthew 18:3

Presumably means …become like little children WITHOUT SINS
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December 3, 2013 5:04pm
wat dabney

mandk,

Matt 18:3 ‘Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven.’

You too are trying to reject the concept of original sin; that we need to accept the Jesus character as a saviour.

Is that what you are saying?
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December 3, 2013 5:05pm
Reid

Infants and babies are sinless.

Unfortunately wiki, wat’s right on this occasion. It doesn’t happen very often but he’s right this time.

Babies are born into sin courtesy of the original sin, then they take on their very own sinful nature the first time they have a sinful thought, which is usually crying not because they’re distressed but because they feel like it. Bear in mind sin covers thoughts, words and deeds.
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December 3, 2013 5:12pm
Gulag1917

Arminianism v covenantal theology debate again?
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December 3, 2013 5:16pm
wat dabney

“Unfortunately wiki…”

Why ‘unfortunately’?

I thought your deity was the last word in love and compassion, yet here you are telling us Yahweh’s edict in this matter is ‘unfortunate.’

Let’s be clear, Yahweh/Jesus the magic pixie could wriggle his cute little nose like Elizabeth Montgomery and instantly those hundreds of millions of babies and children he’s tormenting with fire would be relieved.

It is Yahweh/Jesus who chooses to burn babies and children.

Let’s be clear again: Yahweh/Jesus is infinately worse and more evil that that baby rapist English pop singer that was convicted recently.
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December 3, 2013 5:19pm
cha

Remember kids, never pick a fight with an Alaskan women.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/20116160/brutal-oktoberfest-fight-caught-on-camera/

Longer version.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=362_1385917709
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December 3, 2013 5:25pm
Viking2

Banks to Stand Trial.
Second strike.

DG will see the irony.

A second judge has ordered ACT leader John Banks to stand trial for electoral fraud next year.

The decision, released this afternoon, came after Banks appeared in the High Court at Auckland last week where he sought a review of the initial district court decision for him to stand trial.

He will stand trial over how donations to his 2010 Auckland mayoral campaign were recorded. After his High Court hearing last week, Banks said he was not worried about the outcome as he had done nothing wrong.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9471229/ACT-leader-John-Banks-to-face-trial
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December 3, 2013 5:28pm
Kea

A great example of christian love and good will to all man is kowtow 😐
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December 3, 2013 5:28pm
Reid

Why ‘unfortunately’?

Because normally you’re wrong wat, I was referring to how unfortunate it was you’d lucked onto the correct answer, since your ego normally explodes at such news. But never mind, I see in the next few lines you return to form and completely misapply the truth you accidentally stumbled upon.

It is Yahweh/Jesus who chooses to burn babies and children.

No that’s the followers of Moloch and Baal who chose to do that, wat. My understanding is that despite being sinful you’re not subject to the day of judgement unless and until you’re of an age to know right from wrong. That means all the children who have died prior to that and all intellectually handicapped people get the pass into the sheep, whereas people like you and Kea would, on current performance, go into the goats.
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December 3, 2013 5:30pm
wat dabney

“ My understanding is that despite being sinful you’re not subject to the day of judgement unless and until you’re of an age to know right from wrong…”

Completely unbiblical.

Shit you made up.
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December 3, 2013 5:33pm
Kea

CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION OF JEWS OVER THE CENTURIES

In the second century and beyond, many of the principal Fathers of the Church began to write of Jews as a “rejected people” who were doomed to a life of marginality and misery. Jews were to wander the world as a “despised people.” This image persisted in Christian preaching, art and popular teaching for centuries to come. In certain countries it often led to civil and political discrimination against Jews and in some instances to physical attacks on Jews which resulted in death. While some Popes, bishops and Christian princes stepped up to protect Jews, they were clearly a minority.

When the Nazis came on the scene in Germany they were able to draw upon the legacy of Christian anti-Judaism

http://www.ushmm.org/research/the-center-for-advanced-holocaust-studies/programs-ethics-religion-the-holocaust/articles-and-resources/christian-persecution-of-jews-over-the-centuries

A sorry tradition carried on today by the likes of kowtow. The only difference is the very recent shift to targeting Muslims. The Catholic Church backed holocaust against Serbs and Jews (to create a pure Catholic state) began in the 1940’s and was completed only recently in the 90’s. Just last year holocaust survivors were appalled that the leader of the Croatian holocaust was remembered and celebrated in Catholic masses held in Catholic Churches all over Croatia.

It is incredible that against this background we do not tolerate Nazi sympathisers but do allow Catholic Churches to flourish like a tumor among civilised society.
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December 3, 2013 5:44pm
Reid

Completely unbiblical.

God is just wat and it would be unjust to condemn souls who lacked mens rea (guilty mind).

Ro 9:14-16 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

For example.
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December 3, 2013 5:44pm
cha

Bob’s in the shit.

“If you got a slave master or Klan in your blood, blacks can sense that. That stuff lingers to this day. Just like Jews can sense Nazi blood and the Serbs can sense Croatian blood.”

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/world/20122387/bob-dylan-charged-in-france-over-croat-comments/
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December 3, 2013 5:49pm
wat dabney

Reid,

“God is just wat and it would be unjust to condemn souls who lacked mens rea (guilty mind). ”

You too are denying the concept of original sin.

The very idea of original sin is unjust and wrong; yet there it is, sitting front and centre in Christianity like a steaming pile of shit on the living room floor.
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December 3, 2013 5:50pm
Colville

What the fu*k is up with the cricket? Two players with tons in a test? Is that the Slack Craps that is playing WI ? 🙂
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December 3, 2013 5:51pm
Kea

Hay GOD freaks !, thumbing down my informative and educational comments will not change history. Nor will chanting your mantra of “troll”.

You could always try prayer LOL 🙂
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December 3, 2013 5:52pm
Kea

I had a good time in Croatia and think more people should visit there. One of the things I enjoyed was the solidity of the culture. It is very much a un-PC staunchly Roman Catholic country. I saw very few “minorities”. It felt liberated and people smoked everywhere. It will be interesting to see how they fare in the open border policy of the communist EU. Already they are playing up merry hell over attempts to liberalise laws around homosexuals.
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December 3, 2013 6:00pm
Lucia Maria

Do I bother to read the entire thread, or are the last few comments indicative of what’s been going on all day … decisions, decisions ..
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December 3, 2013 6:01pm
Kea

Lucy honey, I was wondered if you might pop up !

We have only just begun and the night is young 🙂
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December 3, 2013 6:02pm
big bruv

“Do I bother to read the entire thread, or are the last few comments indicative of what’s been going on all day … decisions, decisions ..”

Why would you bother Lucia. You are an apologist for the thousands of crimes committed by the evil Catholic church, we all know that you prefer to stick your head in the sand so there is little point.
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December 3, 2013 6:07pm
Lucia Maria

Yes, I might have to read the thread to see what I’m in for if I stick around.

Hello Kea, feeling refreshed from your time away? Banished for a while. That must have hurt.
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December 3, 2013 6:08pm
liarbors a joke

Banksy…maate…looks like u be in the shit a bit deeper today ?
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December 3, 2013 6:09pm
Kea

Lucy, I found some more interesting history for you. I know you are a big fan of the church, so I thought I would share it with you:

Horrors of the Roman Catholic Church!

http://www.angelfire.com/realm/soulseeking0/rcc.html

[ WARNING: Very disturbing. Contains truth about Catholics]
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December 3, 2013 6:14pm
Longknives

Colville- The West Indies are pretty woeful and seem to have some internal turmoil…India absolutely massacred them.
I doubt the Young Guns..sorry Black Caps have ‘turned the corner’ just yet….
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December 3, 2013 6:14pm
Reid

The very idea of original sin is unjust and wrong

Why? If it wasn’t for original sin, which was inspired by Satan, then all of us would be living in the Garden of Eden, as God intended. God didn’t cause the original sin, Satan did, and Satan causes all the other sins since.

What you and many others don’t seem to get, is that God will not allow sin into His presence. He hates sin. Of any and all kinds. And if you’re guilty of one sin, you’re guilty of them all, by law. Thoughts, words or deeds, it doesn’t matter. Small or large, it doesn’t matter. Sin is sin is sin.

Before the covenant of the Blood of the Lamb, a blood sacrifice of an innocent animal was necessary before offering prayer and worship to God. This is because the spirit resides in the blood. This became over time perverted by the priests who said a sestertii was the only acceptable form of currency to buy the doves, and the money changers in the temple began charging exorbitant rates for sestertii, thus preventing the people from accessing God and that’s why Jesus overturned their tables in the only violent act He ever committed.

When they killed Jesus, God on Earth in human form, who had never sinned, not once, God then deemed this to be an acceptable sacrifice for those who accepted Him as their Lord and Saviour. So a blood sacrifice became replaced by the covenant of the Blood of the Lamb.

Now since we’re all human and we keep sinning, the Christ-ian walk is a gradual process of purification. And it’s a process sustained through faith and hope of salvation, that keeps us going.

Meanwhile, Satan the Deceiver and Slanderer, keeps on encouraging people to turn away, to enjoy the pleasures of the world, to “do what thou wilt,” which according to Aleistar Crowley, is the whole of the law.

And when you look at the world and what happens in it, who do you think has the apparent upper hand. Satan is very good at what he does, isn’t he. But when you use your innate sense of right and wrong to assess what is correct and what isn’t, you see as can everyone if they’re honest and have a 3-digit IQ, that Satan’s way leads to death. Trouble is, many people have fallen for Satan’s greatest deception of all. That he doesn’t exist.

That’s why many don’t even get the basics.
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December 3, 2013 6:14pm
Lucia Maria

And Big Bruv is here, fantastic. I’ll have to set the ignore level to high.
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December 3, 2013 6:16pm
Kea

Hello Kea, feeling refreshed from your time away? Banished for a while. That must have hurt.

Lucy, thanks for you concern, but I got some extra reading and running in, plus I was busy doing worky stuff in Auckland.

Remember Lucy, Jesus will not love you like I would 🙂
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December 3, 2013 6:17pm
big bruv

Don’t worry Lucia. I know you read everything I write.

You should stick around though, there is a slim chance that you might learn something. Hell, even D4J might turn up to defend you.
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December 3, 2013 6:21pm
Reid

For those who aren’t interested in the ‘other’ discussion, how about this:

http://filmingcops.com/corrupt-government-chemist-tampered-with-40000-cases-locking-countless-innocent-americans-in-prison/

AND this chemist gets only 3 years.

AND there are other people in the lab who are facing investigation

AND look at her photo.

AND the prosecutors encouraged her to gild the lily, so they could boost their conviction rate. Who cares about guilt or innocence.

Speaking of evil. Speaking of Satan’s influence in our world right here, right now.
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December 3, 2013 6:24pm
Manolo

Helping the Green cause: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/12/02/CA-Air-Resources-Board-fuel-efficiency
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December 3, 2013 6:28pm
Kea

Lucy, how about you and I head off for a jaunt around the beautiful Croatian islands together ?

There are lots of great places for you to bother God. But first you will need a few sins for forgiving. That is where I come in. 😉
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December 3, 2013 6:31pm
Fletch

Very tasteful Alison Mau … NOT.

Just saw a promo for Seven Sharp, and the show is going to be something with Nigel Latta and toilet humour. That’s as may be, but no excuse for Mau to say, “he’ll help you give a crap”.
Can we get this woman off the TV already?
Actually the whole show is rubbish. I know my folks switch over immediately after the news – even Campbell Live is better.
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December 3, 2013 6:32pm
Ryan Sproull

Why? If it wasn’t for original sin, which was inspired by Satan, then all of us would be living in the Garden of Eden, as God intended. God didn’t cause the original sin, Satan did, and Satan causes all the other sins since.

Well, let’s track down the culprit who created this Satan fellow and give him a good talking to!

Meanwhile, Satan the Deceiver and Slanderer, keeps on encouraging people to turn away, to enjoy the pleasures of the world, to “do what thou wilt,” which according to Aleistar Crowley, is the whole of the law.

I’m not especially a fan of Crowley, but you’re conveniently forgetting the next part of the quote, there: “Love is the law.”

Trouble is, many people have fallen for Satan’s greatest deception of all. That he doesn’t exist.

How did he do that? By removing all evidence of his existence from the world? Sneaky.
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December 3, 2013 6:33pm
Kea

Reid, that is appalling. What a mess trying to put that right.

[expect a down tick from kowtow, for questioning the “authorities”.]
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December 3, 2013 6:33pm
wat dabney

Reid,

“Before the covenant of the Blood of the Lamb, a blood sacrifice of an innocent animal was necessary before offering prayer and worship to God… ”

Fuck me. You sad, sad man.

“If it wasn’t for original sin, which was inspired by Satan, then all of us would be living in the Garden of Eden, as God intended. God didn’t cause the original sin, Satan did, and Satan causes all the other sins since. ”

Firstly, by definition, as a supposed omnipotent deity, nobody and nothing else “causes” anything. Specifically, the heroic Satan character in the book didn’t ’cause’ anything which the omnipotent Yahweh/Jesus character didn’t design, implement and impose. And that includes the hideous notion of original sin, whereby people suffer and are punished for the transgressions of others.

The evil doctrine of original sin is all Yahweh/Jesus.

100% of it.

Secondly, it is that evil Yahweh/Jesus-imposed doctrine which consigns children and babies to be born as “sinners” and therefore inevitably to suffer an eternity in burning torment if and when they die.

Your pathetic wheedling is like the babysitter blaming the two-year-old for burning down the house.
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December 3, 2013 6:38pm
Manolo

Fletch, why the need to endure such rubbish? Just turn the TV off. It will not be long before Mau & co are off-air.
Ratings rule and Seven Sharp must be very, very low.
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December 3, 2013 6:40pm
Manolo

It should be the end of him (at last!): http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8765322/john-banks-to-stand-trial
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December 3, 2013 6:41pm
big bruv

Manolo.

Yep, Banksie should resign without delay and enable a by election. ACT could yet revive itself with a decent candidate standing in Epsom.
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December 3, 2013 6:47pm
liarbors a joke

“but no excuse for Mau to say, “he’ll help you give a crap”.”

But shes a new age liberal lesbian with children..c’mon , its cool , its hip to be rad man..
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December 3, 2013 6:49pm
Reid

Well, let’s track down the culprit who created this Satan fellow and give him a good talking to!

Satan has free will Ryan because you can’t love without free will and the whole point of creation is creating a family of love freely given and freely received. Satan decided not to go with that because he wanted to be the head so God decided in His wisdom to allow him the opportunity to run for office amongst the family God created – us. This is our life, today.

I’m not especially a fan of Crowley, but you’re conveniently forgetting the next part of the quote, there: “Love is the law.”

You’re either ignorantly or purposely ignoring the second part: There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt. Love is the law, love under will. True love is not willed, it’s granted. Do you choose to love? No. It comes from somewhere you know not where. You can will yourself to feel affection, but you can’t will yourself to love. This is because love comes from God. God is love. And He gives it to all of us.

How did he do that? By removing all evidence of his existence from the world?

No the evidence exists, but you have to look for it and know what you’re looking at and if you’re not looking for it or don’t know what you’re looking at then it can be staring you right in the face and you still won’t see it. For example: http://www.whale.to/b/hand.html
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December 3, 2013 6:50pm
Fletch

Well, let’s track down the culprit who created this Satan fellow and give him a good talking to!

Ryan, Satan wasn’t always bad though. He was Lucifer before that: an angel of light. And God made him that good thing. The thing is that God also gave his created things free will – to love Him or not. Just like you have free will to love God or not. I’m sure you wouldn’t like it if you’d been programmed to have to love somebody or to have to feel or act a certain way.
Free will is a double edged sword, but we can’t really be, well – free – without it.

Lucifer rebelled and took a third of the angels with him.

[edit] – Ryan, snap!
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December 3, 2013 6:52pm
Viking2

Ah but Manolo the other useful idiot is coming back.
I refer of course to the delightful, pragmatic fence sitting Member for possum country down Wellington way.

indeed I got a live picture of him.

http://screencast.com/t/7gfJXrTNLnc
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December 3, 2013 6:56pm
Viking2

liarbors a joke (1,048 comments) says:
December 3rd, 2013 at 6:49 pm

“but no excuse for Mau to say, “he’ll help you give a crap”.”

But shes a new age liberal lesbian with children..c’mon , its cool , its hip to be rad man..
=================

Well I guess some of them have to double up.

Census says there are more women than men.
So got to get it somewhere.
Especially since the new Marriage Bill has allowed double ups for men. Kinda makes the gender split a bit worse.
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December 3, 2013 6:58pm
cha

Or it just might be the Hawaiian shaka…eh…brah.
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December 3, 2013 6:58pm
bereal

Lets say you are a degenerate, habitual user of prostitutes and,

for some reason, you feel the need to broadcast that fact on a blogsite.

Why would you also make the gormless statement that you have never used the
same one twice ?

Maybe it’s because you are really so unworldly that you are oblivious to the fact that
other readers may have used the odd Ho and can see what a prat you must be.

Hey dime. Any comment ?

Some of us would realise that there are several types of whores.

Some are hard cows out to rip you off.
Some just do the job, take your dollars and get out of there.
Then there are some who are kinda like caring nurses who do the best job they can, love
their work and give it their all.

Most users of working girls would twig to it when they struck a good one and go back for
seconds.

Now what does it say about a degenerate, habitual user who can’t recognise the difference ?

What do you think dime ?
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December 3, 2013 6:59pm
SGA

big bruv at 8:02 am

Has Penny Bright paid her rates yet?
Has Len Brown resigned yet?

big bruv at 6:47 pm

Banksie should resign without delay and enable a by election.

Well, bb, from the looks of it, there is clearly something odd about those who want (or have wanted) to be Mayor of Auckland.
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December 3, 2013 7:00pm
Fletch

Here’s something from C.S Lewis to chew on –

Christians, then, believe that an evil power has made himself for the present the Prince of this World. And, of course, that raises problems. Is this state of affairs in accordance with God’s will or not? If it is, He is a strange God, you will say: and if it is not, how can anything happen contrary to the will of a being with absolute power?

But anyone who has been in authority knows how a thing can be in accordance with your will in one way and not in another. It may be quite sensible for a mother to say to the children, “I’m not going to go and make you tidy the schoolroom every night. You’ve got to learn to keep it tidy on your own.” Then she goes up one night and finds the Teddy bear and the ink and the French Grammar all lying in the grate. That is against her will. She would prefer the children to be tidy. But on the other hand, it is her will which has left the children free to be untidy. The same thing arises in any regiment, or trade union, or school. You make a thing voluntary and then half the people do not do it. That is not what you willed, but your will has made it possible.

It is probably the same in the universe. God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go either wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong; I cannot. If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata—of creatures that worked like machines—would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they must be free.

Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk. Perhaps we feel inclined to disagree with Him. But there is a difficulty about disagreeing with God. He is the source from which all your reasoning power comes: you could not be right and He wrong any more than a stream can rise higher than its own source. When you are arguing against Him you are arguing against the very power that makes you able to argue at all: it is like cutting off the branch you are sitting on. If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will—that is, for making a live world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings—then we may take it it is worth paying.

When we have understood about free will, we shall see how silly it is to ask, as somebody once asked me: “Why did God make a creature of such rotten stuff that it went wrong?” The better stuff a creature is made of—the cleverer and stronger and freer it is—then the better it will be if it goes right, but also the worse it will be if it goes wrong. A cow cannot be very good or very bad; a dog can be both better and worse; a child better and worse still; an ordinary man, still more so; a man of genius, still more so; a superhuman spirit best—or worst—of all.

How did the Dark Power go wrong? Here, no doubt, we ask a question to which human beings cannot give an answer with any certainty. A reasonable (and traditional) guess, based on our own experiences of going wrong, can, however, be offered. The moment you have a self at all, there is a possibility of putting Yourself first—wanting to be the centre—wanting to be God, in fact. That was the sin of Satan: and that was the sin he taught the human race. Some people think the fall of man had something to do with sex, but that is a mistake. (The story in the Book of Genesis rather suggests that some corruption in our sexual nature followed the fall and was its result, not its cause.)

What Satan put into the heads of our remote ancestors was the idea that they could “be like gods”—could set up on their own as if they had created themselves—be their own masters—invent some sort of happiness for themselves outside God, apart from God. And out of that hopeless attempt has come nearly all that we call human history—money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery—the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy.

C. S. Lewis (2009-06-14T22:00:00+00:00). Mere Christianity (Kindle Locations 576-609). HarperCollins Publishers. Kindle Edition.
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December 3, 2013 7:02pm
Pete George

It’s not just Banks in deep trouble, Act have some deep pondering to work out how to extract themselves from a very awkward bind. If the trial isn’t held in the first half of next year (and it looks like it won’t) that places them in an almost impossible situation, unless Banks indicates he won’t stand again.

One man and a private prosecution could potentially impact on the whole election and options for the next Government.
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December 3, 2013 7:03pm
Kea

Lucifer rebelled and took a third of the angels with him.

Incredible watching otherwise intelligent men recite mythology as if it is ordinary fact.

I notice you boys are willing to take that garbage literally, but ignore crystal clear biblical directions on issues such as: non-virgin brides, rape victims, disobedient kids, slaves, working on the sabath, and rather a lot else.
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December 3, 2013 7:05pm
nickb

What do you think dime ?

If I was to guess dime’s response beryl, it would be to eat —- and —.

Great day for the black caps! What a commanding performance? I eat humble pie over my bagging of McCullum.
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December 3, 2013 7:07pm
big bruv

nickb

You’re an easy task master.

One test hundred in three years against the Windies B team bowling line up and you think all is well in ego McCullum land?
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December 3, 2013 7:09pm
Fletch

Kea, I believe we have given reasonable answers to many of those things (in some instances multiple times) but you just keep on repeating them again and again. You don’t WANT to know the answer or to try to follow our reasoning. You’re not searching. You’re not interested. You have this thing in your head and you’ll follow that way.

As Billy Graham says, the Cross is offensive. It offends people. But it must be confronted, one way or another.
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December 3, 2013 7:11pm
nickb

It was inevitable, just a matter of time.

Spinning this as exoneration is straight out disingenuous.

Why did he resign stating that he “had been unwise, even stupid”?

He has admitted discussing leaking state secrets to a reporter, with that reporter. Coincidentally he then refuses to release around 40 of 80 emails he sent to her over a period of around a week.

There hasn’t been a clearer statement of innocence since Bain’s retrial.
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December 3, 2013 7:13pm
bereal

Well what a suprise.

little nickb cannot help himself. @7.07

Jumps in like a Pavlov dog.

Give your master at least some chance to answer for himself before you
leap to his aid little nickb.

(talk to you later)
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December 3, 2013 7:13pm
Reid

ignore crystal clear biblical directions on issues such as: non-virgin brides, rape victims, disobedient kids, slaves, working on the sabath, and rather a lot else.

We don’t ignore them Kea, many of us just know how to put them into the proper context, something which I’ve noted you aren’t particularly good at, perhaps because you don’t want to be, even though you could be if you wanted to.
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December 3, 2013 7:14pm
big bruv

Fletch

Is that the same Billy Graham who said that AIDS was a judgement from his God?
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December 3, 2013 7:18pm
big bruv

“many of us just know how to put them into the proper context,”

Just how do you put rape into the proper context?
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December 3, 2013 7:19pm
Kea

We don’t ignore them Kea, many of us just know how to put them into the proper context,

Reid, so what is the CONTEXT where you approve of killing naughty kids, people who work on the sabath, stoning non virgin brides to death on their dads door step, tearing babies from pregnant women etc. ?

You have made it clear you will not condemn those things as wrong. For you they are all OK in the right context.

And how do you know what the context is for your selective reading ?

Provide Bible verses to back up your answers. Eg EVIDENCE
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December 3, 2013 7:21pm
Pete George

Coincidentally he then refuses to release around 40 of 80 emails he sent to her over a period of around a week.

That’s factually incorrect. Dunne sent 42 emails over two weeks, and he handed over some of those and parts of others. That’s all officially documented. And now the Privileges Committee has backed Dunne’s refusal to hand over anything else, he shouldn’t have had to hand over anything. That’s all in today’s report.

I didn’t spin any any exoneration. There is no proof Dunne leaked the report, as any lawyer should know, so the identity of who leaked the report remains unproven and therefore unknown.

The report shows that the Henry inquiry grossly overstepped and has been severely criticised for that – much along the lines of criticisms I made and was attacked here for. I didn’t before but I can now claim exoneration for that, not that I expect any sudden honesty or integrity from those who attacked me.

And it’s clear if Henry hadn’t carried out the inquiry so poorly and unjustly then Dunne would never have been put in a position where he felt compelled to resign, so would still be a Minister. (That is regardless of the unproven case of who leaked the report).
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December 3, 2013 7:27pm
Lucia Maria

Well, read the thread.

I Have a couple of thoughts on original sin. The first being that Wat, Reid and Wirikiri are all kind of right and kind of wrong.

Original sin could be thought of as unfair, if it weren’t for Grace (as Wiri mentions) from God to help us overcome it. Grace does not overwhelm free will however, so a person can choose to co-operate with God or not. No babies are condemned to Hell, as Hell requires free consent and understanding that requires being of an age to understand right from wrong (as Reid mentions).

Raging against Original Sin for making us exercise our choice to reject evil is like raging against gravity for making us walk as babies – it’s pointless. It’s there, get over it. We have to fight against it’s effects like we have to fight against gravity. Some people don’t have the will, they don’t want to get off the couch, they want to indulge in their appetites no matter the help they are given.

For those of us who care, it’s painful to watch.
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December 3, 2013 7:30pm
nasska

For those of us who don’t give a stuff it’s worse. 🙂
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December 3, 2013 7:32pm
Fletch

tearing babies from pregnant women etc.

That’s a mention right there of something you probably approve of – abortion – and yet you’re condemning something that, according to you, God approves of in the Bible (although I’m not sure that it is). How do you condemn it in one case, yet approve it when babies are torn from women today in the name of convenience?

That seems a bit hypocritical to me.
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December 3, 2013 7:32pm
bereal

Actually, i think i made my point tonite.

i’ll give it away for now.
The stick man himself must be busy,
i cant wait the 3 minutes.
But, when you recover from your efforts dime if you can spare a moment to
respond…. Otherwise…

talk to you tomorrow little nickb.
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December 3, 2013 7:33pm
Kea

Fletch, In what CONTEXT do you approve of those things ?

You are ok with rape, stoning rape victims to death, genocide and infanticide, slavery, mass murder, torture, just as long as the CONTEXT is ok.

All jokes, point making and polemics aside… fucking listen to yourself ! Look what religion has you defending. You can not bring yourself to condemn it as just plain wrong.
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December 3, 2013 7:37pm
Kea

OH and Fletch, that was a very slimy and dishonest reply @ 7:32 to a simple question.
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December 3, 2013 7:39pm
big bruv

It does not take long to expose Lucia as a liar as well as an apologist for the evil catholic church.

” No babies are condemned to Hell”

That comment from Lucia is a blatant lie, she knows it and anybody with a passing interest in Catholicism knows it to be a lie.

For centuries those who lost a child who had not been baptised were told that their child had gone to a “mild form of hell”. Imagine the torment that caused the already grieving parents of the deceased child.

Only later did the church decide that tormenting parents over the death of their children was a bit much even for them, at that stage they introduced the idea (again proving that god is man made) of “limbo” where the child stays, neither in hell nor in heaven.

Face it folks, Lucia is a liar and nothing she has to say should be believed.
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December 3, 2013 7:39pm
publicwatchdog

What do you say to this Cameron Slater?

(Of course – I’d prefer to ask you directly on your Whale Oil blog, but as far as I know, you’re still not a ‘journalist’ and I’m still ‘banned’? 😉

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

‘Dodgy John’ is going …. going……

http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/john-banks-loses-bid-avoid-trial-5748104

http://www.3news.co.nz/Banks-to-stand-trial-for-electoralfraud/tabid/1607/articleID/323805/Default.aspx

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11166361

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/229740/banks-loses-another-bid-over-trial

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/nbnat/1319821655-john-banks-to-stand-trial-for-alleged-electoral-fraud

Well done Graham McCready!

This private prosecution has set QUITE a history-making precedent, (in my opinion).

Credit where it is due – good to see the Solicitor-General Michael Heron, acting for the public, in the public interest.

Some of us have put in a considerable amount of time and effort helping to alert the public to just how ‘dodgy’ the ‘Not-So-Honorable John Banks has been, and how his signature / word is apparently so meaningless?

The secret is – NEVER, EVER ‘drop the ball’.

Keep going ………

Have a lovely evening Kiwibloggers – I certainly am! 🙂

Kind regards,

Penny Bright

http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

http://www.pennybright4epsom.org.nz
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December 3, 2013 7:41pm
nasska

Perhaps this will give us the answer. 🙂

Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/98p6al1sfxafjjo/Bible%201.jpg
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December 3, 2013 7:42pm
big bruv

Penny.

Have you paid your rates yet?

Are you on any form of benefit from the tax payer?
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December 3, 2013 7:43pm
Kea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK7P7uZFf5o
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December 3, 2013 7:45pm
Pauleastbay

My two bobs worth:

read this last night:

“God needs man more than man needs God.”

Sums it up perfectly for me.
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December 3, 2013 7:45pm
Fletch

Kea, as I said, we’ve been through this all before.

You post Biblical references, I answer you with what I think they mean, you go away and post the same verses/accusations a few weeks later. It’s pointless.
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December 3, 2013 7:46pm
nickb

No bruv, not at all. Was bagging him on here yesterday though.

He certainly hasn’t scored enough runs. The issue with McCullum IMO is that it upsets the balance of the side if he goes into a form slump again and then Ryder comes back. Presumably that means Anderson drops out which means we lose a genuine fourth seamer and a promising young allrounder.
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December 3, 2013 7:49pm
nasska

Not pointless Fletch, but instructive. If Kea is not getting the message then you must be doing a crap job of selling it.

That, or the message is a complete load of bollocks. 🙂
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December 3, 2013 7:49pm
Kea

Fletch, ok

I simply invite you to listen to that Youtube clip that explains it better than I have done.

I know you are not an evil bastard in reality. That is why it is so disturbing to see you refuse to condemn those things due to religion 🙁
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December 3, 2013 7:53pm
Dean Papa

Toilet humour is Kiwi as!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38734cah8Mw
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December 3, 2013 7:55pm
Pauleastbay

nickb

Agree, a great innings, 100 off 101, you’d be a miserable bastard to criticize that but lets see it followed by a 70, a 46 ,a 83 a duck and a 116. That’s called a rich vein of form and expected of a top order batsman.

If he doesn’t go over 50 for the next 5 innings bring back Skippy
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December 3, 2013 7:55pm
Longknives

nickb and Bruv- I stand by my comments about McCullum yesterday.
The guy could have been a genuinely great keeper/batsman- but his ego demanded that he open. It didn’t work out (simply because he isn’t good enough to open in Tests) and he all but ruined his legacy.
Nice knock today but one big score against genuinely woeful opponents doesn’t automatically forgive all shockers in the past..
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December 3, 2013 7:58pm
Kea

Face it folks, Lucia is a liar and nothing she has to say should be believed.

biggot bruv, you obsessive cowardly troll prog homo loving heathen communist, Lucy can not reply as she is busy packing for our trip to Croatia. 🙂
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December 3, 2013 7:58pm
nasska

“Dad, Ben at school says he can fly!”

“I don’t think so, son.”

“It’s true! Lots of the other kids said so too!”

“Son, sometimes people invent things to get themselves noticed. It’s not nice to make up stories like that because people end up believing them, telling others & then that person’s worth is judged on lies. OK?”

“OK dad.”

“Good boy, now sit there & read your Bible.”
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December 3, 2013 8:01pm
Pauleastbay

After living in the remote countryside of Ireland all his life, an old Irishman decided it was time to visit Dublin ..
In one of the stores, he picks up a mirror and looks into it.
Not ever having seen a mirror before, he remarked at the image staring back at him.
‘How ’bout that! he exclaims, ‘Here’s a picture of my Fadder.’
He bought the mirror thinking it was a picture of his dad, but on the way home he remembered his wife didn’t like his father, so he hung it in the shed, and every morning before leaving to go fishing, he would go there and look at it.
His wife began to get suspicious of his many trips to the shed.
So, one day after her husband left, she went to the shed and found the mirror.
As she looked into the glass, she fumed, ‘So that’s the ugly bitch he’s running around with.’
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December 3, 2013 8:01pm
Kea

nasska, you sister loving hillbilly gorse farmer, why no “smug” smileys anymore ? 🙂

You were always Reds favourite, you know that don’t you ? 🙂
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December 3, 2013 8:05pm
MH

Bring on the rack,any Catholic/protestant MP’s still familiar and proficient with its use ?
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December 3, 2013 8:07pm
nasska

….”You were always Reds favourite, you know that don’t you”….

I think that at some stage I must have typed something that upset him Kea…….it all went downhill from there. 🙂
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December 3, 2013 8:08pm

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