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December 20, 2013 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 20 December 2013

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Left Right and Centre

Is that double fucker still turning up to meetings ? Sheesh….. he’s sure got a pair that fella….

Good morning Kiwiblog commenters !! Howdy doody
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December 20, 2013 8:03am
Harriet

Morning to you too LRC.

“…..Those who publically espouse the statist philosophy do so in age-old and threadbare platitudes.

The depth of thought rarely exceeds three basic tenets: 1) capitalism and wealth accumulation is evil; 2) only an economy and society dominated by a powerful central government can guarantee fairness of outcome and 3) anyone who disagrees with 1 and 2 is dangerous, ignorant and not only greedy but tyrannical and thus must be relegated to the ash heap of society.

Failing to understand that these tenets have been in existence since the late 1840’s, the current proponents act as if they have discovered some new and overwhelmingly successful concept. The overwhelming failure of those nations that chose to go down this road is conveniently ignored or mired in blissful ignorance. Mindlessly defending NZ Progressivism is all that matters…..”

Mr Craig’s Conservatives will easily get 5%. 😎

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/12/the_decline_and_fall_of_political_discourse.html#ixzz2nwuI67lT
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December 20, 2013 8:07am
lilman

Good day ahead,fishing and then off on holiday,love this country.
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December 20, 2013 8:16am
Harriet

“……A comment about an “enormous big gay rainbow” that was seen on the day Parliament voted on the marriage equality bill has been voted the quote of the year.

National MP Maurice Williamson’s speech in support of gay marriage has won the Massey University Quote of the Year competition with an impressive 38 per cent of the vote – the second year in a row the competition has been won by a Member of Parliament.

The speech was so well endorsed by the public that seven quotes from it were submitted to the competition.

Williamson, speaking in support of the Marriage Amendment Bill which allowed gay couples the right to legally marry, said he had received a message that the bill was the cause of the drought.

“Well, in the Pakuranga electorate this morning it was pouring with rain.

“We had the most enormous big gay rainbow across my electorate,” Williamson said……”

I don’t see why gays spend all their time careing about what I think of them – as I ‘m not their God – neither is anyone else for that matter. But that’s the ‘tolerant’ for you. 😎

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9537673/Big-gay-rainbow-wins-votes
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December 20, 2013 8:25am
Than

Couple of good results in the latest Herald Digipoll.

– National up 3.1%, Labour down 2.3%. Possibly just the last of the bump Labour gained from the leadership contest evaporating and things reverting to status quo ante-Cunliffe
– Conservatives on 0.7% despite all the publicity they’ve been getting.

Otherwise essentially no change. On this poll the Maori party would hold the balance of power. However it would only take a 1-2% shift and National would be able to govern alone.
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December 20, 2013 8:32am
Harriet

The left in the MSM are real sick fucks IMHO…….this is how those fuckers at Stuff right a headline:

“…..Family link death crash to poverty…”

Here is the very, very sad story – and no they didn’t link it to ‘poverty’ – but if to anything – only hardship!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9537689/Family-link-death-crash-to-poverty
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December 20, 2013 8:39am
Pauleastbay

“Fmr PM Gillard’s chief spinner John McTernan “I’m in Comms not policy, the sewer not the sewage”

Sort of explains spin doctors, especially Lens cabal
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December 20, 2013 8:47am
iMP

The HUGE news in America is the shooting of Duck Dynasty Phil Robertson. Death of the First Amendment and the gay police.

http://conzervative.wordpress.com/2013/12/20/yet-more-liberal-media-nazism/
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December 20, 2013 8:47am
Harriet

“….Start with homosexual behavior and just morph out from there. Bestiality, sleeping around with this woman and that woman and that woman and those men,” he says. Then he paraphrases Corinthians: “Don’t be deceived. Neither the adulterers, the idolaters, the male prostitutes, the homosexual offenders, the greedy, the drunkards, the slanderers, the swindlers – they won’t inherit the kingdom of God…..”

Can you guess which of the above groups caused what subsequently befell Robertson[Duck Dynasty] : suspension from his A&E show?

It wasn’t the greedy.

Or the idolaters.

It wasn’t bestialists, though there’s an effort to legitimize their behavior now, too.

The swindlers?

Nope — not the slanderers, either.

Hint: One of the organizations whose complaints got Robertson suspended was GLAAD, and that doesn’t stand for Guiding Light Advocates for Adulterers and Drunkards. 😎

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2013/12/the_duck_dynasty_flapdoodle.html

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2013/12/homosexuals_gets_duck_dy-nasty.html#ixzz2nx6b2JUN
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December 20, 2013 8:55am
duggledog

The Nats will have the numbers to govern alone. Just because it hasn’t happened in the whole history of MMP means nothing, MMP’s only a few elections old. It’s like saying ‘there haven’t been any ice ages in my lifetime’. I’m no political scientist but here’s my reasons

The Royals are coming in April (massive boost for the incumbents)
National are still in the high forties even after all this time
All the minor parties save Cons are just getting no traction
Maori won’t have their 2 icons any more
Labour is inextricably linked with the mental Greens, and they are linked with the racist travelling trougher Harawira. National will absolutely cane this and all the things the Greens want to ban in the campaign. Scare the shit out of people
Economy pumping
Chch really kicking in
And most importantly to get them over the line – the lollies. English will have some real good ones for the lofos, only a fool wouldn’t and he ain’t no fool.
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December 20, 2013 9:03am
Manolo

The venal Peters will imitate this bugger: http://www3.blogs.rollcall.com/wgdb/reid-wants-8-more-years-as-senate-leader/
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December 20, 2013 9:03am
Manolo

With friends like him: http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/12/19/putin-defends-nsa-obama-because-he-can-get-away-with-it/
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December 20, 2013 9:05am
peterwn

‘Helen Milner’ case – quite apart from the Police failure to investigate it as a homicide, that the police took 16 days to find that Helens’s claims against her son were a load of rubbish is a matter of very serious concern. Presumably the ‘son’ was just ‘processed’ on a conveyor belt of justice when any decent cop should have immediately realised that the alarm bells were jangling on this one. For example Helen’s accusation should have viewed with a jaundiced eye in light of her dishonesty (theft) conviction. Also and decent cop who questioned the son should have been able to form a preliminary view as to whether his denial was genuine.

That someone can be slammed into custody merely on the say-so of another person (especially one known for dishonesty) is totally unacceptable – if a complainant with a spotty history makes such a complaint the complainant should be warned of the consequences of a false complaint and if the complainant persists with it, it surely requires some urgent investigating before someone is taken into custody.

When sentencing her for murder, the two year something sentence for setting up her son should IMO be added to the minimum time to be served for the murder ie a 10 year minimum should be boosted to 12 years.

Above is an over-simplification. See:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11175397

In particular as soon as she was charged with the false statement, the son should have been brought before a judge and released. As well as suing his mother, he has a good case IMO to sue the Crown for three days of unlawful imprisonment.

All in all a triple (at least) failure on the part of the police.
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December 20, 2013 9:06am
Pete George

A non-Brown Auckland revelation – Cameron Brewer admits not declaring Gold Coast junket

Auckland councillor Cameron Brewer, who has been baying for Mayor Len Brown’s blood for not declaring gifts, has admitted not declaring a four-day junket to the Gold Coast.

Mr Brewer yesterday admitted taking free air tickets and accommodation paid for by MediaWorks, which runs TV3.

The right-wing councillor said he made a declaration of interests in 2011, but not in 2012, which would cover the period he went to Queensland.

The 2012 declaration of interests shows that Mr Brown and just nine of the 20 councillors filed returns.

Mr Brewer apologised but said it was not in the same league as Mr Brown’s $39,000 undeclared hotel use and there was certainly no intent to try and obstruct the process.

Is there a freebie culture in Auckland? There seems to be at least a council culture of not following declaration rules. This looks bad.

I also question a councillor accepting substantial freebies from a media company.

There should be a clear separation between political and media interests. It’s questionable whether it’s wise for councillors (or the mayor) to be accepting freebies from any company. There’s too great a risk of perceptions of favours and compromising impartial decision making.
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December 20, 2013 9:08am
Harriet

That would be not too far from the truth duggledog, the only thing I may add is that Mr Craig and his Conservatives may get a lot more votes of National than expected, thus carrying them over the line.

A line has to be drawn between National and Labour is the message that has been said by National voters over the last 4 or 5 yrs, and Mr Craig has listened to those voters.

Mr Craig IS the differance between National and Labour for those that want it – and plenty who vote for National do!

All’s good. 😎
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December 20, 2013 9:15am
Left Right and Centre

Harry – I looked at your Fluffed story…

“Her husband is a really hard-working man but to take care of that many children is hard.”

Does anyone know how all these damn kids got here ? Help us, we’re drowning in them. Oooooo…. no, you did not. Fuck me – that’s red tick country right there brother… well, keep going fuckwit, might as well now…

Langi’s other five children had been at home in Blaketown, under the care of the eldest, a 14-year-old daughter.

Is that legal ? Really… I don’t know. I don’t like it anyway.

Family spokesman Taina Kinikini said yesterday the crash happened when Manui Langi was driving home from collecting scrap meat from a home-kill butcher because they had been struggling financially.

You don’t have to have meat. Not really. You’re not going to die without it, eh ? Seems to be a common thread through all of this…. hmmmm (I’ve given up chicken wings myself last few days. I’m still typing, aren’t I?)

Any problems with the van’s roadworthiness could also be blamed on the lack of money to cover maintenance, he said.

Again, the money thing. I wonder just how unbelievably dodgy the vehicle was ? Did it at least only have three space-savers on it ?

If you read the thing it says Tongan couple move to West Coast with four kids. Work visa is only renewed annually. And it costs thousands each time. Tough going, yeah ? So – of course they went and had another three kids for good measure over the next five years.

All of this has lead to the crash. Less kids – mother greatly increased odds of not making the news. Had they stopped at seven or were more coming ? The youngest is three. Conceiving at 40 – why not one more at 43 – 44 ?

So – who or what is it blame ? Poverty ? Self-imposed poverty – duh !! That’s a no-brainer. Good on the three-year-old for making it out. I’m impressed by that effort.
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December 20, 2013 9:15am
ciaron

Get in there Pete, show ’em how its done!
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December 20, 2013 9:15am
Ross12

A very good , simple thread by Whale on the Brown affair and how it compares to Alistair Thompson , Paul Henry etc

http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2013/12/contrasts/
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December 20, 2013 9:16am
Pauleastbay

Are these councillors totally independent. ?

You would expect that they would have to run anything like this past council staff who would then enter into the register for them and legal staff who would offer the opinion that taking this trip Len Cameron is not a good look , taking this room len is not a good look, even staying at the casino Len is not a good look

In the real world its called a conflict of interest
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December 20, 2013 9:17am
iMP

duggledog …”The Nats will have the numbers to govern alone.”

As a Nat of 25 years this ain’t gonna happen. The current polls bear little relation to electoral day, when voters make different choices.

You also give as a reason for the sentence above, “Chch kicking in.” Yes, The gummint is spending millions, but this is not translating as support for National in Chch, quite the contrary (all the polls and recent elections [mayor, Council, by-election] bear this out). National is getting hammered in Canterbury. National’s loss of the party vote in this region will cost them the election if they don’t have an ally. PV for Nat was exponentialy high in 2011. It will be conversely low in 2014.
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December 20, 2013 9:18am
Jack5

Whatever happened to the plodding, unimaginative but honest bankers of old? Managers typically took Wednesday afternoons off for golf, and were stalwarts of local rotary clubs. They may have been boring and utterly conservative, but it was almost unheard of for one of them to knowingly lead a customer into risk. Now we can recognise their worth.

Skip a few decades.

First, Brierley Era directors out to hot up the Bank of NZ so overcooked it that local ownership was lost in the ensuing mess. The non-banker bosses couldn’t understand why bankers for centuries were conservative in business.

More recently, some of the big shots in the finance companies disaster learned their trade in NZ banks, and ended up, for example in Hubbard’s empire.

Now swaps loans by banks are proving to be an international scandal as well as one that trapped many NZ farmers. People brought up to trust bankers must have been easy targets to be sold into these.

Banks may try to divert some of the blame to the Reserve Bank, which is supposed to give some oversight, and we have a Banking Ombudsman. No-one will swallow that. When it comes to borrowing money from the person across the desk, the lender’s integrity is at least as important as the borrower’s financial position and cash flow. The swaps start and end there.

The unfolding scandal:

In Britain:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10527353/FCA-chief-warns-Treasury-swaps-scandal-could-be-significantly-bigger.html

In New Zealand:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11173790
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December 20, 2013 9:26am
Harriet

iMP#

“…..Yes, The gummint is spending millions, but this is not translating as support for National in Chch, quite the contrary (all the polls and recent elections [mayor, Council, by-election] bear this out). National is getting hammered in Canterbury….”

I agree on that iMP, but those voters at election time -a whole year away- will not be voting for the running of CH-CH but for the general running of the NZ economy for the next 3 yrs.

Labour ‘owns’ the CH-CH rebuild ect – but they don’t ‘own’ the running of the general economy – National does.

Or in other words – National’s record shows that they CAN run the country, and that WILL then help CH-CH.

Will they RISK Labour running the national economy after all that they’ve been through ?

Stability is their best choice.[but National is best not to mention that pun 😎 ]
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December 20, 2013 9:37am
Weihana

iMP (1,866 comments) says:
December 20th, 2013 at 8:47 am

The HUGE news in America is the shooting of Duck Dynasty Phil Robertson. Death of the First Amendment and the gay police.

You appear confused and unfamiliar with the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. It reads as follows:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

[Emphasis mine]

If you were not aware, A&E is a television channel ultimately owned by the Hearst Corporation and The Walt Disney Company. They are not “Congress” and are entitled to censor their own television shows at their own discretion and to thereby choose what speech they will and will not associate themselves with.
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December 20, 2013 9:42am
eszett

iMP (1,866 comments) says:
December 20th, 2013 at 8:47 am
The HUGE news in America is the shooting of Duck Dynasty Phil Robertson. Death of the First Amendment and the gay police.

Huge news? Seems only for those who are obsessed with gay sex and homosexuality like yourself and Harriet.

Where exactly is this the Death of the First Amendment? Your whinging and whining is tiresome, this is the same old lame argument brought up over and over again.

Robertson has the right to say what ever he wants. So does everyone else! Robertson says something incredibly stupid and he has the right to do so. And everyone else also has the right to point that out.

Why should everyone else not exercise their right to free speech?
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December 20, 2013 9:43am
Pauleastbay

Robertson has the right to say what he wants. A & E pay him so they have control over him regards the program, simple.

Its all about consequences
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December 20, 2013 9:50am
Harriet

“…..Why should everyone else not exercise their right to free speech?….”

Are you stupid?

Glaad is exercising their free speech by demanding that he apologise because they believe what he said SHOULDN’T be said.

Or what then do they want him to apoligse for?- for hitting them all on the head with a strap-on?

Everybody is soon just going to exercise their free speech by saying NO to your silly demand that free speech be APOLOGISED for. [your pathetic attempt to shut people up from saying ‘disagreeable ‘ statements.]

We value what we value and we don’t have to apoligse to you gays for that – because you don’t apologise to us for not valueing our values. Wake -up!
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December 20, 2013 10:01am
Harriet

“…..Robertson has the right to say what he wants. A & E pay him so they have control over him regards the program, simple….”

Apparently they don’t have much control, as Conservative commentators are all calling for them to walk, and take themselves to another studio. And that may be because it is a reality show – in that you can’t restrain people from ‘being themselves’ – maybe.
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December 20, 2013 10:11am
Fletch

Harriet, USA Today has a good column on the controversy.

After years of attempting to balance traditional Americana with political correctness, those pushing the new “my way or the highway” definition of “tolerance” have decided accommodating our differences of opinion is defeat.

In an interview with GQ, Robertson plainly repeated simple truths that are fundamental to western civilization — the Bible calls all sexual activity outside of holy matrimony sin and immoral, and it’s natural for a man to be attracted to a woman. You know, the birds and the bees.

For that, the tolerance mob demanded his head on a platter, and the wannabe King Herods that work at A&E, the network that made untold millions off of Robertson’s enormous popularity, gladly obliged. When we have now come to the point that pop culture would rather bow at the altar of rabid political correctness than make a profit, then we have reached a point of no return as a people.

Especially in an era when government believes it has the power to compel a Christian baker to make wedding cakes for homosexuals, compel a Christian photographer to photograph a homosexual union in a state that doesn’t even recognize them, and tell a Christian company it has to provide birth control to its employees in violation of its owners moral conscience. We have reached the point where government believes it gets to play God.

Let the record show which side of this debate is pushing their agenda on everyone else, and using the coercive force of government and bullying tactics in the media and pop culture to do so. It is not the Christians

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/12/19/duck-dynasty-bible-religion-palin-robertson-column/4124181/
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December 20, 2013 10:13am
ciaron

Vehicle licences are such a rort.
wanna pay in person? fine, cash or eftpos only.
Wanna pay by credit card? fine, do it on line… Just takes 2-3 weeks for them to post it to you.
kinda cant wait that long? rock up and show your recipt, fine, that’ll be an extra $4.something >:(

just about bloody tear your hair out with these people
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December 20, 2013 10:13am
Fletch

A new campaign to boycott A&E has sprung up.
From the Washington Post –

A Twitter campaign to boycott A&E, the network that airs the show, sprung up, and in less than 24 hours has gained more than 9,600 followers — and is still growing. A similar campaign on Facebook has more than 500,000 “likes.”

Now here’s a question for A&E CEO Abbe Raven: What did you think would happen when you angered the audience for a top-rated show, many of whom share Robertson’s beliefs, just to appease the insatiable appetite of the grievance industry?

http://washingtonexaminer.com/duck-dynasty-suspension-sparks-twitter-facebook-campaigns-to-boycott-ae/article/2540983
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December 20, 2013 10:17am
eszett

Are you stupid?

Glaad is exercising their free speech by demanding that he apologise because they believe what he said SHOULDN’T be said.

So you are say GLAAD shouldn’t be allowed to say what they said.

And you call other people stupid?
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December 20, 2013 10:19am
Weihana

Harriet (3,209 comments) says:
December 20th, 2013 at 10:01 am

Glaad is exercising their free speech by demanding that he apologise because they believe what he said SHOULDN’T be said.

Or what then do they want him to apoligse for?- for hitting them all on the head with a strap-on?

Everybody is soon just going to exercise their free speech by saying NO to your silly demand that free speech be APOLOGISED for.

We value what we value and we don’t have to apoligse to you gays for that – because you don’t apologise to us for not valueing our values. Wake -up!

It seems some people have trouble with the distinction that just because you have a right to say something does not mean you should say it, and conversely that just because you shouldn’t say something doesn’t mean you can’t.

For instance one is free to say Kim Jung Un is one sexy badass motherfucker. But if you could refrain from doing so that would be great. Perhaps if you went ahead a said it the sensible amongst us might demand an apology for such obscenity. But any such demand would not carry the force of law and thus there would be no basis to allege your freedom of speech had been impinged upon.
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December 20, 2013 10:21am
Weihana

Fletch (5,264 comments) says:
December 20th, 2013 at 10:17 am

A new campaign to boycott A&E has sprung up.

And this is how a free society works. Everyone is free to provide their own support to the opinions they wish to champion. There is no threat to freedom of speech. It is simply a question of which values hold more pull in the court of public opinion. Whereas once upon a time a televised kiss between a Starfleet captain and his black lieutenant was controversial and a television network might be well advised to avoid it, today it would be considered outrageous for a television network to be worried about it. Times change and attitudes change and it is up to the network to decide how it wishes to present itself and whatever choice it makes it will shoulder the consequences of that decision.
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December 20, 2013 10:28am
jackinabox

This story proves two things; that the cops are arrogant and incompetent and “just didn’t give a s***”. and that the IPCA is a waste of taxpayer dollars.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/assault-and-homicide/news/article.cfm?c_id=124&objectid=11175404
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December 20, 2013 10:31am
Fletch

So you are say GLAAD shouldn’t be allowed to say what they said.

And you call other people stupid?

GLAAD can say whatever they want. But they are one of those groups that Hollywood seems to appease at all costs. A couple of years ago, a comedian, Tracy Morgan, made a gay joke in a stand-up routine and was taken to task by GLAAD. He ended up on some kind of re-education class and apology tour. It’s happened with others, too.

See, GLAAD has the power because of their faux, “threatened minority” status to attack those with whom they do not agree with impunity. Their exercising their “free speech” is much more than that. It is a condemnation that they know carries weight and has real consequence for those whom they attack.

In a word, they are compelling those with whom they disagree to tow the line or else. It’s more than exercising free speech. It is a threat: tow the politically correct line or you will lose your job and never work in this town again.
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December 20, 2013 10:33am
Weihana

Fletch (5,264 comments) says:
December 20th, 2013 at 10:13 am

…When we have now come to the point that pop culture would rather bow at the altar of rabid political correctness than make a profit…

Controversial remarks affect profit and is why television networks care. Sponsors and advertisers generally don’t favour controversy: everyone’s money is the same colour. The television channel in question is ultimately owned by a media conglomerate and the remarks of someone they employ reflects upon them and as a conglomerate they are attempting to appeal to a very diverse group of people: basically everyone. Controversial remarks make that difficult and require a tough decision to be made on where to put your money.

A syndicated columnist like Steve Deace has nothing at stake. His conclusion is clearly influenced by his own bias towards the comments in question. The media conglomerate is the party that has money on the table. I know which one I would count on to make the right financial decision.
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December 20, 2013 10:40am
Weihana

Fletch (5,265 comments) says:
December 20th, 2013 at 10:33 am

Their exercising their “free speech” is much more than that. It is a condemnation that they know carries weight and has real consequence for those whom they attack.

The right to free speech does not entitle anyone to be free from the consequences of that speech. Free speech is a protection against LEGAL sanction by the government.
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December 20, 2013 10:46am
Harriet

Thanks Fletch.
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December 20, 2013 10:47am
Left Right and Centre

Fletch – I believe it’s ‘toe the line’ you ignorant god-sucking cunt 🙂 🙂

Don’t worry, that one is there to find out who sleeps with Big Ears. You’re it.

I think I’ve even managed to offend myself with the first sentence. Whoa……
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December 20, 2013 10:48am
eszett

In a word, they are compelling those with whom they disagree to tow the line or else. It’s more than exercising free speech. It is a threat: tow the politically correct line or you will lose your job and never work in this town again.

lol, Fletch.
And you are just complaining that they are not towing your line, aren’t you?
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December 20, 2013 10:51am
Weihana

Fletch (5,265 comments) says:
December 20th, 2013 at 10:13 am

Especially in an era when government believes it has the power to compel a Christian baker to make wedding cakes for homosexuals, compel a Christian photographer to photograph a homosexual union in a state that doesn’t even recognize them, and tell a Christian company it has to provide birth control to its employees in violation of its owners moral conscience. We have reached the point where government believes it gets to play God.

Regulation of commercial enterprises and employer’s is not unprecedented and in any case has little or nothing to do with freedom of speech. The same anti-discrimination protections are available to people on racial and religious grounds and is merely being extended to another group as attitudes in society “evolve”.
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December 20, 2013 10:51am
Fletch

Perhaps my last post was not very clear.
I’m not saying that GLAAD has no right to say anything they want. Of course they do.

Perhaps it is that there seems to be a general fear now; a fear of offending a certain group or minority groups. If Christianity were to be made fun of by a comment someone made in a magazine, some Christians might be offended. A Christian-based group or a church might even make a statement, but that would likely be the end of it.

I doubt a network would fire one of its stars for saying something anti-Christian.

As I’ve read several times over the last few days with reference to gay rights, you will be made to care
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December 20, 2013 10:59am
Harriet

Weihana#

“……A new campaign to boycott A&E has sprung up.

And this is how a free society works. Everyone is free to provide their own support to the opinions they wish to champion. There is no threat to freedom of speech. It is simply a question of which values hold more pull in the court of public opinion….”

Yes……….but as you well know Weihana…….that is not at all what the homosexualists do……’boycotting’ a business is not making organised claims to newspapers and radios , is not picketing the premises , is not lying about facts, is not clogging busines telephone lines, is not…..

‘Boycotting’ simply means…..not doing business with. Homosexuals publicly ridicule and intimidate businesses and their customers.

The trend of their behaviour proves it is not boycotting anything – but rather – HARRASING any opposition into holding the homosexualists beliefs!

Just like Unionists did do -and just like the Greens do now.

But you already new that.
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December 20, 2013 11:04am
Fletch

lol, Fletch.
And you are just complaining that they are not towing your line, aren’t you?

Perhaps I am.
Or perhaps I’m not that upset with GLAAD. They’re just doing what they’ve always done.
It’s just that this fear of offending homosexuals has so permeated society now that people are afraid to stand up for what they believe. It’s political correctness at its most insidious.
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December 20, 2013 11:08am
Harriet

“….lol, Fletch.
And you are just complaining that they are not towing your line, aren’t you?…”

Perhaps he’s not!

We have a God, and our God is the God of homosexuals too. We have to please Him. We have to tow His line.
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December 20, 2013 11:15am
KevinH

@Harriet , @Than
The latest Fairfax Media Poll has the Conservatives polling 0.7%, down 0.7% from August. With those figures in mind it would take a huge endorsement from the Nat’s to get anywhere near 5%, also the Conservatives would have to take on Winston to get over the line and frankly I can’t see that happening in 12 months.
The Nat’s would have to gift East Coast Bay’s to the Conservatives for them to have any chance of having a seat in 2014.
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December 20, 2013 11:20am
Fletch

We have a God, and our God is the God of homosexuals too. We have to please Him. We have to tow His line.

This is true.
As Pastor Rick Warren said on the Piers Morgan show the other day, “I fear the disapproval of God more than I fear your disapproval or the disapproval of society.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPRlaQworPE
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December 20, 2013 11:21am
iMP

A huge debate in US. So, its ok for a TV journo to suggest someone defecate in Sarah Palin’s mouth, but NOT for a private citizen to mention the “sin” word in the same context as homosexuality? Is this the new North Korea?

http://conzervative.wordpress.com/2013/12/20/shooting-duck-dynasty-liberal-quackery-defecating-in-sarah-palins-mouth-is-fine/
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December 20, 2013 11:22am
eszett

It’s just that this fear of offending homosexuals has so permeated society now that people are afraid to stand up for what they believe. It’s political correctness at its most insidious.

I have to laugh.
You, for one, are certainly not afraid of offending homosexuals, Fletch, you spew hatred and bile at them at every opportunity.

And all of a sudden, when people stand up to that, stand up for what they believe, you call it “political correctness”.

You are free to say and stand up for whatever nonsense and stupidity you wish to believe.
But you have no right to have demand it to remain unanswered and undisputed.

You desperate claims of “political correctness” only show that you have no arguments on your side.
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December 20, 2013 11:25am
Weihana

Harriet (3,213 comments) says:
December 20th, 2013 at 11:04 am

Weihana#

“……A new campaign to boycott A&E has sprung up.

And this is how a free society works. Everyone is free to provide their own support to the opinions they wish to champion. There is no threat to freedom of speech. It is simply a question of which values hold more pull in the court of public opinion….”

Yes……….but as you well know Weihana…….that is not at all what the homosexualists do……’boycotting’ a business is not making organised claims to newspapers and radios , is not picketing the premises , is not lying about facts, is not clogging busines telephone lines, is not…..

Oh my… organised claims… picketing… how dare they. Lying too… don’t they know only speech which passes Harriet’s truthometer is allowed to be said? and making telephone calls… the worst crime of all!
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December 20, 2013 11:26am
eszett

We have a God, and our God is the God of homosexuals too. We have to please Him. We have to tow His line.

So you please your god by demeaning and demonising your fellow human beings for being gay.
What a fine god you have, Harriet.

I am grateful that he is merely your fantasy.
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December 20, 2013 11:27am
Pete George

“I fear the disapproval of God”

An interesting concept. That must be a fear of what you believe of your perception of a god disapproval, or what you believe others telling you is what a god would disapprove of and how the god would disapprove.

There is no evidence of any actual “disapproval of God”.
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December 20, 2013 11:29am
Harriet

Weihana#

“….For instance one is free to say Kim Jung Un is one sexy badass motherfucker. But if you could refrain from doing so that would be great. Perhaps if you went ahead a said it the sensible amongst us might demand an apology for such obscenity. But any such demand would not carry the force of law and thus there would be no basis to allege your freedom of speech had been impinged upon…..”

But anything and everything that is perceived as being ‘negative’ towards homosexualists is being called ‘offensive’ a ‘hate crime’ ect. And that ‘we should all refrain from doing so’. Your business or employer gets harrased until you do so.

We both know what is offensive. Faggot ect.

Anyone who doesn’t hold the homosexualists views are being shut down. Fact.
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December 20, 2013 11:30am
Weihana

Fletch (5,268 comments) says:
December 20th, 2013 at 11:08 am

It’s just that this fear of offending homosexuals has so permeated society now that people are afraid to stand up for what they believe.

I see plenty of people standing up for their ridiculous beliefs. Their whinging is just reaching its crescendo as they start to realize their numbers dwindling and their power and influence evaporating.
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December 20, 2013 11:33am
Harriet

Weihana#

“…..Oh my… organised claims… picketing… how dare they. Lying too… don’t they know only speech which passes Harriet’s truthometer is allowed to be said? and making telephone calls… the worst crime of all!…”

It’s general harrasment. Fact. They wouldn’t do it if boycotting worked!

But you knew that too! 😎
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December 20, 2013 11:34am
eszett

Anyone who doesn’t hold the homosexualists views are being shut down. Fact.

Nonsense. You are very free to hold anti-homosexual views as you are free any views that you wish to hold.
It does not mean you can hold those views and express them publicly without any reaction to it.

If you express idiotic, mean-spirited and bigoted views you cannot complain for being called out on them. That is the essence of free speech.

What you want is the exact opposite: you wish to express your views and everyone else should shut up about them.
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December 20, 2013 11:37am
Weihana

Harriet (3,214 comments) says:
December 20th, 2013 at 11:30 am

But anything and everything that is perceived as being ‘negative’ towards homosexualists is being called ‘offensive’ a ‘hate crime’ ect. And that ‘we should all refrain from doing so’. Your business or employer gets harrased until you do so.

You keep using the word “harassed” as if this somehow disguises the fact that the activities you are referring to are well within their rights. How amusing that a discussion that starts with a concern about freedom of speech evolves into calling protesting “harassment”.
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December 20, 2013 11:39am
Gulag1917

“idiotic, mean-spirited and bigoted views”
Anything that disagrees with homosexuality.
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December 20, 2013 11:44am
slightlyrighty

The potential for an election lolly scramble is worrying to me. Labour have shown a willingness to promise the moon and the stars during an election regardless of the total cost to the economy.

The one cause for optimism that I have is that National can show where the money is coming from. Labour, having already pledged to (possibly) buying back state assets (if fiscally prudent) simply can’t do this. If you want to see the long term implications of this sort of government, look to Australia.
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December 20, 2013 11:46am
Pete George

Someone else seems to feel harassed. John Tamihere to sue MediaWorks

“I’m telling you this morning I will be litigating again with Mediaworks very shortly so you can read all the salacious bits in the affidavits and in the emails, but whenever I go anywhere I will go on my own terms, won’t go on anyone else’s terms,” he is quoted as telling the station.

“It’s interesting too at Mediaworks, it’s a sisterhood running it and I’m just writing up my affidavit now and reflecting on it, it’s amazing, it’s back to the future with Helen and co.”

I don’t like his chances of getting a shot at an electorate or list under Labour.
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December 20, 2013 11:47am
Weihana

iMP (1,868 comments) says:
December 20th, 2013 at 11:22 am

A huge debate in US. So, its ok for a TV journo to suggest someone defecate in Sarah Palin’s mouth, but NOT for a private citizen to mention the “sin” word in the same context as homosexuality? Is this the new North Korea?

There is no debate if your contribution to this thread is anything to go by. You’ve clearly not comprehended the rebuttals put to you and I don’t think you rambling on the same nonsense talking points with your fingers in your ears counts as “debate”.

In North Korea if you say the wrong thing you get taken out back and a bullet put in your head. This has not happened in this case. Rather a private company has merely decided that they do not wish to associate themselves with that particular point of view, as is their right.
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December 20, 2013 11:48am
Fletch

eszett, you’re wrong.

The gay thing has so permeated our culture now – entertainment, music, news, everything; that people are afraid to criticize it. If you can’t see that then you’re living in a cave. For example, there was a Ron Howard movie recently, The Dilemma, in which a character utters the line, “electric cars are gay”. GLAAD made this into a HUGE thing and wanted the line removed from the movie.

The gay strategy is largely taken from Kirk and Madsen’s book, After the Ball: How America Will Conquer Its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the 90s. The entire campaign is based not on intellectual arguments, but on emotional manipulation of the public.

Here are their six steps.

The first order of business is desensitization of the American public concerning gays and gay rights. To desensitize the public is to help it view homosexuality with indifference instead of with keen emotion. Ideally, we would have straights register differences in sexual preference the way they register different tastes for ice cream or sports games: she likes strawberry and I like vanilla; he follows baseball and I follow football. No big deal.

At least in the beginning, we are seeking public desensitization and nothing more. We do not need and cannot expect a full “appreciation” or “understanding” of homosexuality from the average American. You can forget about trying to persuade the masses that homosexuality is a good thing. But if only you can get them to think that it is just another thing, with a shrug of their shoulders, then your battle for legal and social rights is virtually won. And to get to shoulder-shrug stage, gays as a class must cease to appear mysterious, alien, loathsome and contrary. A large-scale media campaign will be required in order to change the image of gays in America. And any campaign to accomplish this turnaround should do six things.

Step 1: Talk About Gays and Gayness as Loudly and as Often as Possible
Step 2: Portray Gays as Victims, Not as Aggressive Challengers
Step 3: Give Protectors a Just Cause.
Step 4: Make Gays Look Good
Step 5: Make the Victimizers look Bad
Step 6: Solicit Funds: The Buck Stops Here

At a later stage of the media campaign for gay rights-long after other gay ads have become commonplace-it will be time to get tough with remaining opponents. To be blunt, they must be vilified. (This will be all the more necessary because, by that time, the entrenched enemy will have quadrupled its output of vitriol and disinformation.) Our goal is here is twofold. First, we seek to replace the mainstream’s self-righteous pride about its homophobia with shame and guilt. Second, we intend to make the antigays look so nasty that average Americans will want to dissociate themselves from such types.

The public should be shown images of ranting homophobes whose secondary traits and beliefs disgust middle America. These images might include: the Ku Klux Klan demanding that gays be burned alive or castrated; bigoted southern ministers drooling with hysterical hatred to a degree that looks both comical and deranged; menacing punks, thugs, and convicts speaking coolly about the “fags” they have killed or would like to kill; a tour of Nazi concentration camps where homosexuals were tortured and gassed.

In any campaign to win over the public, gays must be cast as victims in need of protection so that straights will be inclined by reflex to assume the role of protector. If gays are presented, instead, as a strong and prideful tribe promoting a rigidly nonconformist and deviant lifestyle, they are more likely to be seen as a public menace that justifies resistance and oppression. For that reason, we must forego the temptation to strut our “gay pride” publicly when it conflicts with the Gay Victim image. And we must walk the fine line between impressing straights with our great numbers, on the one hand, and sparking their hostile paranoia-“They are all around us!”–on the other.

They go into the six steps. Worth reading the whole thing.
Again, this is written by gays themselves as a strategy. And it has largely worked.

http://library.gayhomeland.org/0018/EN/EN_Overhauling_Straight.htm

http://www.amazon.com/After-Ball-America-Conquer-Hatred/dp/0452264987
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December 20, 2013 11:49am
Harriet

Weihana#

“…..I see plenty of people standing up for their ridiculous beliefs. Their whinging is just reaching its crescendo as they start to realize their numbers dwindling and their power and influence evaporating…..”

This tolerance trap is why Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen wrote in 1931:

“……America, it is said, is suffering from intolerance – it is not. It is suffering from tolerance. Tolerance of right and wrong, truth and error, virtue and evil, Christ and chaos. Our country is not nearly so overrun with the bigoted as it is overrun with the broadminded.
…Tolerance is an attitude of reasoned patience toward evil, and a forbearance that restrains us from showing anger or inflicting punishment. …Architects are as intolerant about sand as foundations for skyscrapers as doctors are intolerant about germs in their laboratories….
Tolerance does not apply to truth or principles. About these things we must be intolerant, and for this kind of intolerance, so much needed to rouse us from sentimental gush, I make a plea. Intolerance of this kind is the foundation of all stability….”

Our culture war is a fight to the death. The barbarians are inside the gate, and they don’t listen to reason. Show them the same tolerance they show you — and then show them the door.

————–

I see plenty of people standing up for their perverted sexual behaviour. Their orgasim is just reaching its crescendo as they start to realize their numbers stagnating and their power and influence evaporating — The dance party has left the building. 😎
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December 20, 2013 11:50am
Weihana

Harriet (3,216 comments) says:
December 20th, 2013 at 11:50 am

So you don’t like homos. Why not just open with that rather than wrapping it up in this freedom of speech BS?
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December 20, 2013 11:55am
wikiriwhis business

PUTIN: Impressed by Obama NSA “Spy Program” Tyranny .

In today’s video, Christopher Greene of AMTV explains Vladimir Putin is impressed by Obama tyranny.
http://www.amtvmedia.com/re-direct-pu…
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December 20, 2013 11:56am
eszett

Fletch (5,269 comments) says:
December 20th, 2013 at 11:49 am
eszett, you’re wrong.

The gay thing has so permeated our culture now – entertainment, music, news, everything; that people are afraid to criticize it. If you can’t see that then you’re living in a cave.

Oh dear, what nonsense. Open your eyes. Heterosexuality is still ubiquitous.
The only thing different is that homosexuality is now accepted, is normal, is a part of society and gay people do not have to hide anymore.

You may find this regrettable and the fact that you cannot discriminate, humiliate and demonise gays with impunity anymore. That gay slurs are no longer acceptable as racist slurs are no longer acceptable.

If anyone is living in a cave it’s the likes of you. And you regret that everyone else is so politically correct that they are moving out of the cave, while you are staying behind with iMP and Harriet.
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December 20, 2013 12:00pm
Rowan

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/9537684/Mother-saw-Milner-as-spawn-of-Satan

Helen Milner is a nasty piece of work, disowned by her mother and framed her son getting him arrested. She deserves everything she gets but am guessing she will only get about 7 or 8 years non parole, although I think she should get significantly more.
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December 20, 2013 12:01pm
wikiriwhis business

.Putin: “I Envy Obama, He Can Spy And Get Away With It” .

Russian President Vladimir Putin explains his relationship with Edward Snowden http://www.paulbegleyprophecy.com also http://rt.com
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December 20, 2013 12:01pm
marcw

Could someone pleeease use the kill switch to close down Weihana, eszett, iMP, Fletch, KevinH, Left Right and Centre et al. Your circular arguments and pointless ramblings are becoming tiresome to most others here, and are using up valuable screen space and the earth’s limited supply of electrons. I’m wearing out my scroll wheel just to avoid your ranting.

Thank you… spleen vented.
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December 20, 2013 12:02pm
Fletch

So you don’t like homos. Why not just open with that rather than wrapping it up in this freedom of speech BS?

It’s not that we don’t like people who say they are homosexual. It is that this perverse sexual conduct is being normalized in culture, protected by law and taught in schools; conduct that is dangerous, dysfunctional and unhealthy. And those that disagree with this conduct are being marginalized.

But that was the strategy, as I have pointed out.

I don’t care what people do in their own homes. But gay marriage? Really? Can you not step back and see how ludicrous that is?
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December 20, 2013 12:06pm
Rowan

Come on NZ, you can do better than this, allowing no 10 and 11 batsman to whack boundaries around the park!
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December 20, 2013 12:11pm
Fletch

The only thing different is that homosexuality is now accepted, is normal

That’s just it – it isn’t normal.
Can you really say that gay sodomy is equal to sexual intercourse between a man and a woman? Really?
I’m sorry, but it isn’t. You will probably argue that I am obsessed with sex, but the sex is the defining characteristic in homosexuality isn’t it? The thing that defines a homosexual as a homosexual is the complementarity (or lack of) between the sexes.
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December 20, 2013 12:13pm
Weihana

marcw (175 comments) says:
December 20th, 2013 at 12:02 pm

Your circular arguments and pointless ramblings…

Excuse me I do not offer circular arguments and pointless ramblings… just wisdom and enlightenment. 🙂
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December 20, 2013 12:17pm
eszett

I’m wearing out my scroll wheel just to avoid your ranting.

Try the magic mouse, a trackpad or logitech T631. No scroll wheel but you still give your middle finger a good workout.
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December 20, 2013 12:20pm
Weihana

Fletch (5,271 comments) says:
December 20th, 2013 at 12:13 pm

Can you really say that gay sodomy is equal to sexual intercourse between a man and a woman?

Equal? Nah… more like gay sex equals hetero sex multiplied by -e^(i*pi)
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December 20, 2013 12:21pm
Pete George

From a speech by Metiria Tueri at the TEDxhomeBushRdWomen event in Wellington, 7 December 2013.

(Animation: three children discuss the economic system “So what’s happening with all our money?” “We’re giving it to the government and they’re giving it to the rich people.” “And they’re spending it on stuff they don’t need.”)

We can’t keep telling kids it’s going to be ok; they know it’s not ok. We have to make it ok.

So how might we transform the world of our children, once we have listened to their needs. How can we ensure genuine equality of opportunity for all our kids?

Roberto Unger is a Brazilian social and legal theorist and philosopher who offers us the concept of deep freedom. Deep freedom not shallow freedom. He sees equality as part of deep freedom.

He says that a society that deliberately creates inequality and then resorts to redistribution to soften the impact, is not only useless but inhumane.

To have every citizen be deeply free – our institutions, economic, political, social need to be purposefully built to deliver equality.

Just making little tweaks in a band aid response to inequality is not good enough for our kids.

So I, Metiria, grown up, accept responsibility for delivering a genuinely transformed world for our children, not for perpetuating one that embeds inequality.

“- our institutions, economic, political, social need to be purposefully built to deliver equality”.
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December 20, 2013 12:21pm
Manolo

As per the speech above, we can all conclude Turei is an unabashed, shameless communist.
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December 20, 2013 12:24pm
dime

Fags are too sensitive. They want equality.

That means having the piss taken out of them imho
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December 20, 2013 12:24pm
Harriet

“….The only thing different is that homosexuality is now accepted, is normal…”

Hardly.

Humans are not designed to be homosexual.

Biology hasn’t ever ‘accepted’ it, so it certainly isn’t normal.

You can’t breed from it. Therefor it is the polar opposite of normal!

Adopting children is not ‘being homosexual’ either!
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December 20, 2013 12:25pm
Pete George

Manolo – I don’t think you could get any more socialist than that. Russel Norman looks relatively moderate compared to that.
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December 20, 2013 12:27pm
eszett

You will probably argue that I am obsessed with sex, but the sex is the defining characteristic in homosexuality isn’t it?

Yes, you are obsessed with sex, gay sex in particular.

And no, sex is not the defining characteristic in homosexuality any more than it is in heterosexuality.
There is more going on between a homosexual couple than just sex, as there between a heterosexual couple.

Your focus on sex is simply because the thought grosses you out. Just don’t think about it.

Can you really say that gay sodomy is equal to sexual intercourse between a man and a woman? Really?

Is a guy wanking you really equal to a girl wanking you? Is heterosexual anal sex equal to intercourse between a man and a woman? A heterosexual blowjob better than a homosexual one.

Your question does not make any sense at all, trying to make a human sexual act somehow better or worse than another human sexual act.

Again it all boils down to you don’t like gays. Everything else is a desperate and feeble attempt to rationalise that sentiment.
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December 20, 2013 12:42pm
Fletch

Just to reiterate – I don’t care what anybody does with anyone else in their own homes or spare time. They most probably know that Christians think it is wrong – that it goes against God’s laws. But they do what they want anyway. Fair enough. It is up to them.

BUT, what I really disagree with is when they push for the Government to have their lifestyle made lawful. Thus it lends it an aura of legitimacy or authenticity, because in the public’s mind what is lawful must be moral and right. And what is lawful, moral, and right can be taught in the schoolroom to children as being normal. And when something is law, it delegitimizes the opinion of someone who says they disagree with that law, even on moral or religious grounds.

If polygamy were to be made lawful tomorrow, how long do you think it would be before those who disagreed would be marginalized? 10 years? 20? Enough time for the propagandized youth to grow up and their thinking to be the norm.

And next would be “inter-generational love”.
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December 20, 2013 12:44pm
iMP

I;ve been in a coma for the last year and just come round.

Do you go to jail yet for saying anything negative against politicised homosexuality?

And get an award (or your own TV/Radio show) for denigrating the Church?
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December 20, 2013 12:46pm
Weihana

Fletch,

But they do what they want anyway. Fair enough. It is up to them.

BUT, what I really disagree with is when they push for the Government to have their lifestyle made lawful.

It’s up to them… they can go to jail or not go to jail… it’s a free country. 🙂
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December 20, 2013 12:51pm
Pete George

How long do you think it would be before those who disagreed would be marginalized?

Like “if you don’t agree and comply without question you will burn in hell forever when you die”? At least that’s an improvement to the old days when the burning of those who disagreed began before they died.
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December 20, 2013 12:53pm
Weihana

Fletch (5,272 comments) says:
December 20th, 2013 at 12:44 pm

If polygamy were to be made lawful tomorrow…

I think a Utah court just did that the other day.

And next would be “inter-generational love”.

Next? http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2013/news/130114/hugh-hefner-600.jpg
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December 20, 2013 12:54pm
Fletch

Your question does not make any sense at all, trying to make a human sexual act somehow better or worse than another human sexual act.

That’s the thing. Sexual intercourse is, well, sex (or coitus). Sodomy is not sex. I suppose you could define it as a “sexual act” as you do, but it’s really one guy masturbating into another guy’s er….. They’re not having sex – not as I see it anyway.
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December 20, 2013 12:54pm
Fletch

It’s up to them… they can go to jail or not go to jail… it’s a free country.

I was meaning gay sex, not paedophile sex.
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December 20, 2013 12:55pm
Weihana

Only other guy I know who uses the word “coitus” is a gay actor. 🙂
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December 20, 2013 1:00pm
Gulag1917

Lets loosen the boundaries further, decriminalise rape.
http://watchdogwire.com/florida/2013/05/15/shock-report-10700-men-raped-in-the-us-military/
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December 20, 2013 1:06pm
eszett

That’s the thing. Sexual intercourse is, well, sex (or coitus). Sodomy is not sex. I suppose you could define it as a “sexual act” as you do, but it’s really one guy masturbating into another guy’s er….. They’re not having sex – not as I see it anyway.

So when your daughter blows her boyfriend they are not having sex? She’ll be glad to hear that. And when she let’s him in the back door, they are not having sex either. God’s Loophole.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8ZF_R_j0OY

And according to you Bill Clinton never had sex with Monica, right?
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December 20, 2013 1:08pm
Fletch

OK, it’s fan-made and not real, but shows Chuck Norris one-upping Van Damme in a ‘splitting’ holiday message 🙂

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-D1KVIuvjA
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December 20, 2013 1:11pm
Gulag1917

Reaching new lows in depravity
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December 20, 2013 1:11pm
srylands

Yay I have been banned from The Standard

This is because I made fun of them objecting to The Herald editorial on Len Brown yesterday 🙂

srylands 10.2.1.1.1
20 December 2013 at 10:28 am
[deleted]
[lprent: currently banned. ]
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December 20, 2013 1:17pm
Gulag1917

Confirming man’s total depravity.
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December 20, 2013 1:34pm
nasska

Harriet

I didn’t want to be the one to break the bad news but when you hang your stocking up on Tuesday night guess who is going to fill it with strawberry scented anal lube:

… To the Tune of: Santa Claus is Coming to Town

You better come out, you better not cry,
You better not pout, I’m telling you why…

Santa Claus is wearing a gown.

He’s making the switch,
He’s leaving his wife,
He’s gonna come out,
to start a new life…

Santa Claus is wearing a gown.

A secret he’s been keeping,
It’s made him awful tense.
He knows it will be better now,
When he comes down off that fence.

So you better come out,
You better not cry,
You better not pout,
I’m telling you why…

Santa Claus is wearing a gown.
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December 20, 2013 1:39pm
Ashley Schaeffer

(Animation: three children discuss the economic system “So what’s happening with all our money?” “We’re giving it to the government and they’re giving it to the rich people.” “And they’re spending it on stuff they don’t need.”)

After this animation, Turei’s speech should have been about how to tackle economic illiteracy in our education system.
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December 20, 2013 1:41pm
mandk

@ srylands
excellent! wear it as a badge of honour.
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December 20, 2013 1:42pm
Gulag1917

Guess St Nicholas did not exist either.
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December 20, 2013 1:43pm
Gulag1917

Julia Gillard fires another shot in misogyny debate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS5Mw6KL_FA
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December 20, 2013 1:52pm

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