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December 10, 2013 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 10 December 2013

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nasska

wikiriwhis business

Ever feel bothered that the same organisation that proposes to cull the world human population to half a billion is also charged with preventing WW3?

Because it doesn’t fill me with confidence.
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December 10, 2013 7:45pm
nickb

Wiki, Vettori has been past his prime for around 10 years. A spinner that can’t spin the ball?

Judith, when have I ever tried to “pass myself off” as a lawyer? Why would I feel the need to do that when there is no way of knowing if I am or not? In any case, for differing reasons lawyers are generally hated on KB. So lets keep it between us.
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December 10, 2013 7:45pm
Manolo

Stop sexism and objectification of women. Feminists of the world, unite!
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/nrl/howls-of-protest-as-traditional-canterbury-bulldogs-cheerleaders-are-given-the-flick/story-fni3g67w-1226779244784

It had to be a Kiwi CEO. Leading the world.
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December 10, 2013 7:49pm
nasska

An observant woman died one day & found herself waiting
in the long line for judgement. As she stood there, she
noticed that some souls were allowed to march right through
the pearly gates into heaven. Others though, were led over
to Satan, who threw them into the burning pit. But every
so often, instead of hurling a poor soul into the fire,
Satan would toss the soul into a small pile off to one side.

After watching Satan do this several times, the woman’s
curiosity got the best of her. So she strolled over to find
out what the devil he was doing.

“Excuse me, Prince of Darkness,” she said. “I’m waiting
my turn for judgement but I couldn’t help wondering, why
are you tossing those people aside instead of flinging them
into the fires of hell with the others?”

Ah, those…” Satan said with a groan…
“They’re all NZ Conservative Party supporters….. they’re too
wet to burn! I’ll have to wring them out first.”
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December 10, 2013 8:00pm
Ryan Sproull

Ryan

So we all roughly agree that incentive or stimuli will motivate the most idle….also that the cheapest methodology may be the most effective.

Nasska,

I agree that incentives and stimuli can change behaviour, and that the cheapest methodology may be the most effective, yes.

But your example may end up being a very expensive option. The same methods you apply to Dime’s 10 childless able-bodied friends who live in a place where jobs abound for those who seek them must be applied to many others who are not in that same situation, surely?
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December 10, 2013 8:10pm
Sofia

Hone Harawira heading to Mandela funeral
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9497375/Hone-Harawira-heading-to-Mandela-funeral

Considering that amount of krap that has flowed in the past couple of days – blogs, tv and other media – it is interesting when reality cuts the official delegation to two New Zealand representatives permitted official entry to the funeral.
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December 10, 2013 8:11pm
nasska

Ryan

I agree that there’s often a geographic divide between the unemployed & employment but it’s not beyond the wit of men & WINZ to work out someway to reimburse & support in the short term anyone who wants to move to an area where there are jobs. Eg East Cost NI to Christchurch.

The history of industrialisation suggests that people move to work…..not vice versa.
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December 10, 2013 8:22pm
lilman

Judith for godsake either get a back rub from Hubby or go to bed and rub one out,you seriously need to chill ,after you have done the dishes though.
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December 10, 2013 8:27pm
Ryan Sproull

Ryan

I agree that there’s often a geographic divide between the unemployed & employment but is not beyond the wit of men & WINZ to work out someway to reimburse & support in the short term anyone who wants to move to an area where there are jobs. Eg East Cost NI to Christchurch.

The history of industrialisation suggests that people move to work…..not vice versa.

Sure, but now we’re talking about how to deal with people who want to work but can’t find it locally, rather than our original people who can find work locally but don’t want to work. And now we’re talking about two different ways to deal with those two different kinds of people, each in a way that costs differently – one the cost of relocation, another the cost of identifying them and cutting them off.

All I’m saying is… Well, all I was originally saying was that Dime’s original post talking about what he would do if he was in their situation is reflective of a common misunderstanding of how deep someone’s situation goes.

Now, I appear to be saying… What can seem like a cheap solution to a moderately expensive problem (cut off the benefit for people like Dime’s can-work-but-don’t-wanna folk) can actually be a very expensive solution to a moderately expensive problem. But while beneficiaries are commonly thought of as basically bad people who intentionally screw taxpayers over to fund an enjoyable life of leisure, a measured understanding of the problem and the generation of effective solutions will be hindered.
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December 10, 2013 8:31pm
muggins

A ballad to David

There was once a young man called David
Had dropped out of uni frustrated
He had no enjoyment
His only employment
A newspaper round that he hated

His family was rather a mess,
A dysfunctional Dunedin address,
A new home mum planned,
With Dave as head man,
And at first this appeared a success.

This plan needed Robin’s consent
So off to consult him mum went
Then mum changed her mind
Which Dave thought unkind
And started his anger to vent

He thought up a simple solution
A cunning and quick execution
He’d bump off the four
Then out of the door
For his normal ODT distribution

And later when dad came inside
In a handy alcove he would hide
And while dad was praying
He’d just simply slay him
And say it was clear suicide

The first four were shot in the head
Some were in, some were out of their beds
Steve put up a struggle
All blood and kerfuffle
A throttling hastened his end

Then off to the wash-room Dave hurried
His socks, jersey, track-pants were bloodied
A wash-cycle started
He quickly departed
And off on his newsround he scurried
The shooting of dad went to plan
He enjoyed bumping off the old man
The computer he’d started
Before dad departed
And the suicide note he began

Then twenty more minutes of cleaning
And a call to the cops full of pleading
“They’re all dead” he then cried
“I’m all torn up inside”
While all the time inwardly beaming

You’d think that with evidence aplenty
The laundry, the blood and the frenzy
The glasses that broke
The lies that he spoke
His years in the jail would be twenty

But a gullible jury they found
And Karam and Binnie astound
And Reid won an oscar
For “Meeting his maker”
And out of his cell he did bound

And now half the country believes him
And wants to pay money to please him
Which just goes to show
How little they know
And how thick are some media that leads them
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December 10, 2013 8:44pm
Nostalgia-NZ

FFS, it’s official all the nutters have left is counterfeit poetry.
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December 10, 2013 8:45pm
nasska

I don’t actually think that beneficiaries are necessarily bad people Ryan….as a group they would include many criminals & gang members whose past has effectively excluded them from employment. Most however, are victims of circumstance who never had or have lost the experience of a working life.

They are also, generally, top notch breeders & their fecundity will eventually overwhelm us with a significant class of no hopers & underachievers. The cure will probably cost vast sums of taxpayer dollars but I would hate to become one of the bleeding heart academic excusers who train themselves to ignore the cheap & back the expensive.

It’s not their money.
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December 10, 2013 8:48pm
Judith

@ Nostalgia-NZ (4,197 comments) says:
December 10th, 2013 at 8:45 pm

Don’t worry, he didn’t write it, another of his asylum buddies did.
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December 10, 2013 8:49pm
Nostalgia-NZ

Well I guess it’s xmas in the cuckoo nest.
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December 10, 2013 8:51pm
muggins

Judith
Doesn’t matter who wrote that ballad, just wanted you and your mates to comment.
Not bad, eh?
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December 10, 2013 8:52pm
Judith

@ nasska (8,302 comments) says:
December 10th, 2013 at 8:48 pm

I think that we have a problem with a number of families who are career beneficiaries. I don’t believe they are the majority, or even close to it, but just as we have some families who are career criminals, the same occurs in welfare. They pass on the skills of ‘learned hopelessness’ and after a couple of generations they really don’t know how to help themselves or what is required to be self-sufficient.

Removing their money doesn’t work, because it’s all they’ve known. Giving them a job feels strange, so they don’t fit in and eventually leave. Their lives are full of all the things they do – except earning an income. Many of them don’t know how to cope with more money than just enough – its all they’ve ever had, all their parents ever had. It’s quite sad really – as a country we have to accept that we have created this situation, and despite the fact it is going to cost, we are going to have to find a way to put a stop to it, without harming those that genuinely need assistance.
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December 10, 2013 8:55pm
Judith

@ muggins (2,791 comments) says:
December 10th, 2013 at 8:52 pm

You are a sad stupid man.
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December 10, 2013 8:56pm
Judith

@ Nostalgia-NZ (4,198 comments) says:
December 10th, 2013 at 8:51 pm

They are not very happy about today’s news. You can tell they are worried – they’re in hyperactive mode and each giving their ‘advice’. Poor worried little lambs. And worried they should be …
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December 10, 2013 8:59pm
Nostalgia-NZ

Such are the fruits of persecution.
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December 10, 2013 9:02pm
nasska

Writing acceptable legislation that doesn’t leave loopholes is a big part of the trick Judith…..the DPB, for instance, was never intended to be long term or become a breeding base.

If the system can be gamed then some will do it & pass on the skills.
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December 10, 2013 9:03pm
Rowan

Judith

I imagine that after the upcoming court decision is made public and KP gets what he well intruly deserves from the courts, then the delusional mob will still think they have ‘won’ and have been proven ‘right’
How many of his cult will have put aside money for the stupid fool? my guess is none, they will have distanced themselves like the gutless wonders they are, and just posting more delusional crap online from behind online pseudonyms. I guess that’s the only way they feel safe.
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December 10, 2013 9:08pm
muggins

Judith,
You are a sad stupid woman.
By the way, when you say “they are worried by today’s news” who are the “they’ you are referring to?
Virtually no-one in the JFRB group has even commented. I certainly am not in the least bit worried.
Stop making things up as you are wont to do.
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December 10, 2013 9:09pm
muggins

Rowan,
Re post at 9.08pm.
You post delusional onliine crap using a pseudonym so I guess by your own reckoning that makes you a gutless wonder.
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December 10, 2013 9:14pm
Jack5

Gavin McInnes in Taki’s Magazine in an article about what he sees as the current face of racism:

The Nazis were in favor of gun control, obsessed with environmentalism, they hated smoking, and their boss was a vegetarian. They were your typical socialists.

http://takimag.com/article/same_oppression_different_name_gavin_mcinnes/print#ixzz2n3cqeXRN
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December 10, 2013 9:14pm
cha

Why Gareth hates cats.
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December 10, 2013 9:20pm
Ryan Sproull

I don’t actually think that beneficiaries are necessarily bad people Ryan….as a group they would include many criminals & gang members whose past has effectively excluded them from employment. Most however, are victims of circumstance who never had or have lost the experience of a working life.

They are also, generally, top notch breeders & their fecundity will eventually overwhelm us with a significant class of no hopers & underachievers. The cure will probably cost vast sums of taxpayer dollars but I would hate to become one of the bleeding heart academic excusers who train themselves to ignore the cheap & back the expensive.

It’s not their money.

Okay, let’s see.

Try this. If you had to choose between $100 of your money being given as a benefit to someone who could work or $120 of your money being spent to identify and deny him/her the benefit, which would you choose?
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December 10, 2013 9:21pm
Judith

muggins (2,793 comments) says:
December 10th, 2013 at 9:14 pm

…You post delusional onliine crap using a pseudonym so I guess by your own reckoning that makes you a gutless wonder…

LOL… and your real name is Muggins, is it? You twat!
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December 10, 2013 9:24pm
Pete George

After all the posturing here it turns out NZ only allowed two people at Mandela funeral. Too late to go through another spate of social media selecting back here.

Demelza Leslie ‏@rnzdemelza

David Cunliffe is on his way to meet the Prime Minister to formally give up his place at Mandela memorial to Pita Sharples.

That seems like an admirable gesture from Cunliffe if it’s a straight up offer without any posturing.
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December 10, 2013 9:29pm
muggins

Judith,
Get a grip. I don’t post delusional online crap, you twat.
You and Rowan post enough of that without me having to do likewise.
And who was it begged not to have their name released by a certain person on the grounds that they wanted to protect their anonymity?
Dear oh dear.
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December 10, 2013 9:30pm
nasska

….”If you had to choose between $100 of your money being given as a benefit to someone who could work or $120 of your money being spent to identify and deny him/her the benefit, which would you choose?”….

How can it possibly cost more to not pay money out? In any case if someone has thirty five potential earning years ahead of them the medium/long term benefit to the taxpayer is enormous.
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December 10, 2013 9:30pm
jcuk

Think about it this way … those lazy dudes make it easier for those with the will to get a job and ahead.
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December 10, 2013 9:37pm
Ryan Sproull

How can it possibly cost more to not pay money out? In any case if someone has thirty five potential earning years ahead of them the medium/long term benefit to the taxpayer is enormous.

It’s hypothetical. Let’s say it’s the combined average cost of WINZ identifying and triple-checking that he’s not really someone who needs support, the average opportunity cost of interest-free student loans to someone moving from the benefit to employment, average societal cost if he turns to crime after being cut off, average justice-system cost if he turns to crime and also gets caught, average legal-system cost if he ends up in a tenancy dispute after being cut off before he finds a job… Etc.

Hypothetical. If that was the choice – give $100 to maintain his lifestyle or pay $120 to deny him. After you’ve paid, it’s someone else’s turn to make the same choice. What would you prefer?
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December 10, 2013 9:37pm
Rowan

Right “muggins” this is your real name is it?
My name is actually Rowan and although I don’t know her personally I’d bet $100 that ‘Judith’ is not a pseudonym.

Guess that makes the only delusional liar and gutless wonder you, but we already know that, all you can say is by twisting what we say and parrot it back at us like the pathetic loser that you are.
You really are the worlds biggest piece of crap, well ahead of ‘Bono’ and Randy Marsh
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December 10, 2013 9:41pm
nasska

…”Hypothetical. If that was the choice – give $100 to maintain his lifestyle or pay $120 to deny him”….

So long as it remains an hypothesis I’ll bite…..naturally because it’s my money I’ll go for the cheapest.

But first I’d like to see a lot of evidence that the costings for the $120 job hadn’t been blown out of all proportion.
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December 10, 2013 9:42pm
muggins

Rowan,
Even if Rowan is your real name which I doubt there are thousands of Rowan’s . What we need is your surname.
And I will accept your bet re Judith.
The difference between me and you Rowan is that I use my real full name on other websites. Now if you would care to link me to a website where you use your full name then I will apologise for calling you a gutless wonder, but until you are perpared to do that I will still call you a delusional gutless wonder.
You know my name , so lets be having yours.
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December 10, 2013 9:51pm
Judith

@ muggins (2,794 comments) says:
December 10th, 2013 at 9:30 pm

Members of your group have already been named in complaints to the police regarding their stalking of people, and worst still, their stalking and threatening of children. They have also had complaints made about them to police and government agencies for telephone calls and so on. Why would anyone in their right mind want you to have their address – and more to the point, why would you want it?

Why do you need to know who anyone is on here – over and beyond contact on this site? What possible motive could you have for wanting to know that information? What possible gain could you have by knowing information about people that share opinions on a blog? I suggest anyone that wants that sort of information is up to no good.
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December 10, 2013 9:53pm
Judith

@ muggins (2,795 comments) says:
December 10th, 2013 at 9:51 pm

Why would you want to know someone’s name? What possible motive could you have for that if they are not in a public eye, not a politician etc? Clearly you have devious intentions – my advice to Rowan would be don’t tell you anything – I’ve seen the nasty stuff you’ve taken part in, and are capable of. I strongly suggest that Rowan protects his family and tells you nothing.

If you are stupid enough to put your name all over the net, then you are a fool – and my accusation is proven.
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December 10, 2013 9:57pm
Pauleastbay

Been on twitter a couple of weeks, I knew our media was left wing but Jesus, the majority on there are like undergraduates at their first decent piss up.

The stroking that’s gone on over Mandelas funeral has been staggering. Patrick Gower remembers protesters walking past his place in new Plymouth as a four year old, just how fucking desperate are you for attention that you would write that crap?
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December 10, 2013 10:00pm
Ryan Sproull

So long as it remains an hypothesis I’ll bite…..naturally because it’s my money I’ll go for the cheapest.

But first I’d like to see a lot of evidence that the costings for the $120 job hadn’t been blown out of all proportion.

It’s about twelve different categories of the public sector. What did you expect? ; )
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December 10, 2013 10:03pm
Rowan

I am well aware of all that Judith but I am not going to tell her anything, I also know what ‘muggins’ real name is.
If the best that the stupid old goat can do is to parrot back what we say to her then she is just demonstrating to the blogosphere that lack of brain cells that she possesses together with the ignorance of her knowledge of the Bain case.
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December 10, 2013 10:04pm
muggins

Judith
Members of your group have been named in complaints to the police about stalking people.
I have been stalked myself though I havn’t complained about it.
Rowan said we hid behind pseudonyms and therefore were gutless wonders. I just pointed out that he hid behind a pseudonym so by his own reasoning that made him a gutless wonder.
As for yourself, well if you want to go checking up on my letters and emails to people by using the Official Information Act then I would suggest you are just being a nosy old woman wanting to cause mischief.
Of course I wouldn’t be surprised if you wanted that information to pass on to someone else who wants to remain anonymous.
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December 10, 2013 10:05pm
muggins

Rowan,
I know you know who I am .
What puzzles me is how come you keep getting my gender wrong.
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December 10, 2013 10:08pm
muggins

Judith,
When I first joined the net I used my real name because I didn’t realise there were people like you out there who would want to check up on me.
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December 10, 2013 10:10pm
thedavincimode

Nutters nosty? 🙂

Nutters? And just where does that leave you brave old thing?
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December 10, 2013 10:12pm
thedavincimode

muggins, go easy.

I’ve only just realised that she didn’t get past 4th form English – the bit where once you’ve learned all the words you get to put them all together and work out what they mean.
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December 10, 2013 10:14pm
Kanz

muggins (2,794 comments) says:
December 10th, 2013 at 9:09 pm

I certainly am not in the least bit worried.
Stop making things up as you are wont to do.

You have a great deal to worry about. You used your real name when paying fairfax to publish the links to all those lies that has just cost them a bundle.
A little birdie tells me they will be looking to recoup some of their losses, who do you think they will be asking, through the courts of course?
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December 10, 2013 10:18pm
Rowan

But again Muggy I am not hiding behind a pseudonym so you are again factually incorrect, I could track you down but have no real desire to. You are not worth the time of day. Lets hope for your sake members of the police who you continually misrepresent on this site aren’t interested in tracking you down either, although it would be no less than you deserve.
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December 10, 2013 10:18pm
thedavincimode

🙂 Birds of a feather tick together!
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December 10, 2013 10:20pm
cha

All feathers and shit!
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December 10, 2013 10:26pm
Kea

Where has Left Right & Center got to recently ?

Has he got a hair cut and a job, instead of galloping around Welly night and day like Forrest Gump ?
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December 10, 2013 10:38pm
Manolo

Greeting a friend: http://news.yahoo.com/obama-shakes-hands-cuba-39-castro-mandela-memorial-003922095.html;_ylt=A2KJ3CVLHadS40sAO3DQtDMD
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December 11, 2013 6:33am
Judith

@ muggins (2,798 comments) says:
December 10th, 2013 at 10:10 pm

Well if you didn’t tell lies there would be nothing to check up on.

I simply applied under the Official Information Act to check up on what you stated very clearly was information you’d received from the NZ Police. They sent me what that information was, and it revealed you had lied about what you had been told.

Moral of the story is – don’t tell lies.

You on the other hand tried everything within your power to find out my address – for what reason? Why would you need to know where I lived? Give me one decent respectable reason why you would need that information?

You’re a creep, a stalker and a liar – all provable.
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December 11, 2013 7:36am
Judith

@ thedavincimode (5,742 comments) says:
December 10th, 2013 at 10:14 pm

Oh dear, you poor little man. I may not be an accurate typist or speller, but the one thing I can assure you, I have a damn site more qualifications than you have manners, and charm. The one thing I don’t have that you do, is a bullshit attitude that allows me to think that bullying people on the internet because they don’t agree with you, is o.k. It’s not – it is a sign of a very weak person that resorts to the tactics you, muggins and a couple of others exhibit.
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December 11, 2013 7:39am
stephieboy

Kanz (1,213 comments) says:
December 10th, 2013 at 10:18 pm
Re coup their losses.??
You have full information on what Fairfax reached with Karam with the terms of settlement.??
Correct.?
And details about the manner in which they seek to recoup their alleged” losses.” ?
The time is ripe to reform our Defamation laws along US lines which puts the onus heavily on the plaintiff to prove loss, hurt etc.
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December 12, 2013 6:17pm

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