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October 3, 2013 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 3 October 2013

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General Debate

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bhudson

I would agree with this, but I don’t think it entitles people to anything. Even if you train in skilled work, that in and of itself doesn’t entitle you to a high income.

Agreed. It does rather help the odds though. As Lee Travino was credited with saying: “The more I practice, the luckier I get.”

The choices of others necessarily limit my options – not in a trivial way, but radically, and chance is king over all.

Theoretically possible, but reality shows that people do not make the same choices. And to the extent that you make choices that are likely to be more valued and valuable, and which are not taken up by the majority, the less others making the same choices will impact you. To the extent that there is impact, it is no more than your choice is impacting them – it’s competition and a healthy thing. I don’t think you’ll find too many brain surgeons out of work and homeless because there was just one too many of them. (You might find some of them who are immigrants forced to work another job because their qualification is not recognized by the local regulatory or licensing body – not a case of crowding out due to career choices. Some argue if is the implication of monopolistic control exercisable through licensing authority. But that’s a-whole-nother topic.)

I tend to see welfare payments as bribing people not to be criminals

An unsound basis for welfare – it is incentivizing people to commit crime if they don’t get a handout and an undermining of personal responsibility.

As for the concern we hold for those worse off, well I think that Kiwis, by and large, accept that and are happy for the State to provide services to the needy, including income assistance in some form. What they don’t accept is that access to assistance being misused or being provided without reasonable contingent responsibilities (such as looking for, and being prepared to, work if receiving the unemployment benefit.)
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October 3, 2013 6:29pm
hj

RRM Says:
And your idea of multiculturalism?

A dubious academic idea imposed on the population. A form of social engineering.

Japanese restaurant on Monday.
Indian on Tuesday.
And on Wednesday: Carribean.
Not too spicy please.
Nothing wrong with that but that doesn’t justify mass migration for the sake of diluting societies whiteness.

Well, I’ve got stash on stash and it ain’t nouveau cash.
Money’s in my family for generations.
The great, great, great grandfather made the bag.
Selling European slaves in Africa.
I got cash mutha fuckah – and you can’t tell whether or not I’m joking, can you? Dumb fuck.

I don’t know what you mean. You may have a point but is it my fault if I don’t get it (seems to be what you are implying)?
You remind me of those who start arguing in te reo.
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October 3, 2013 6:32pm
kowtow

Fletch

It’s not bullshit. It’s deliberate and part of their agenda.

Have they ever done any indepth serious coverage of the Tea Party ? Nope, just one liners about racist rednecks,as that’s what they want the sheeple to think of a true grass roots democratic movement as.
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October 3, 2013 6:38pm
hj

liarbors a joke (885) Says:
October 3rd, 2013 at 8:08 am
When are we going to

A ) seriously start drilling for oil

B) seriously start big time mining

*Imagine how wealthy we would become.*
…………………………………………………..
Suppose it went into low energy infrastructure or imagine the population bought aeroplanes which eventually wore out?
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October 3, 2013 6:51pm
cha

Yeah kowtow, not just racist rednecks – an existential threat.

By pretending that the Affordable Care Act poses such an existential risk to the republic that it merits dragging our national character through the mud of a government shutdown, tea party Republicans are belittling the very real crises America soon may face.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2013/1001/The-tea-party-created-an-existential-threat-to-America-not-Obamacare
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October 3, 2013 6:53pm
UglyTruth

Muslim extremists. “Allahu ackbar.”

Doesn’t really answer the question of who did 9/11, though, Lucia Maria. Let’s just say that you don’t want to contest the point that it was a false flag, OK?

Wouldn’t it be more rational to suggest that the terrorists picked the date to coincide with the hijack exercises and the NY bioterror exercise rather than to match a historical Muslim defeat?
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October 3, 2013 6:59pm
Griff

Its not grass root kowtow it is well documented were the tea party came from and why
as cha just said wingnuts will be wingnuts
also the usa and its political landscape is totally irrelevant to our liberal country
in new Zealand few give a toss about the religious beliefs of those running for office in the Christian theocrocy of the states you need to be a Christiany to be elected would most know the religion of there local mp here or even care ?no
teaparty is for dumb easly manuiipulated hicks like you and fletch
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October 3, 2013 7:01pm
OneTrack

Tom – “People need to stop complaining about taxation, ..”

Next you will be saying paying tax isn’t a burden.
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October 3, 2013 7:02pm
nasska

Kea

Griff

LR&C

Davinci

Spring & the associated workload meant that I missed today’s little bunfight on GD. I’ve read all the comments & I have a proposal that could settle once & for all where the antagonism lies.

What I suggest is that for two weeks (say until 19 Oct) not one of us, under any circumstance, is the first to mention anything to do with religion: Christian, Muslim whatever. Once one of the Godnutters does….sweet…..we note who transgressed & it’s back to anything goes for the rest of the day.

After two weeks it will be obvious where the shit is coming from.

As a side benefit it will give us all a chance to concentrate on regular rundowns of Baity’s faults in the interim. 🙂
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October 3, 2013 7:02pm
mikenmild

kowtow
By and large the tea partiers get the coverage they earn, don’t you think?
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October 3, 2013 7:03pm
mikenmild

nasska
There’s plenty of potential for fun and games without it descending to all-out flame wars. Religion is a fun topic and I enjoy seeing it debated.
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October 3, 2013 7:04pm
cha

Ate the monkey brains in 1980, brilliant.

This did not happen yesterday. This did not — pace, Ed Kilgore — happen in 2009. What we see today is the prion disease manifesting itself in garish symptoms, but, as we mentioned yesterday, the country ate the monkey brains in 1980, when it allowed — nay, celebrated — Ronald Reagan’s spurious anecdotes as works of innate political genius. Lest we all forget, let’s look back at the invaluable work that Mark Green and Gail MacColl did in compiling their encyclopedic archive of the rubbish that Reagan made a career of slinging.

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/public-policy-polling-examines-the-republicans-100213
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October 3, 2013 7:07pm
cha

Monkey brains.

http://youtu.be/J0X7oHMASDY
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October 3, 2013 7:09pm
Kea

nasska, Count me in. I have offered previously to only raise the topic of religion in reply and have pretty much stuck to that ever since. 🙂
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October 3, 2013 7:18pm
Kea

Cha, re monkey brains. It reminds me of this impotent bark from Red:

I am just the vanguard of a political movement that is going to wipe Progressives off the face of the earth. They’ll disappear like the Dodo birds did.

I am spearheading a force that will grow from hundreds to thousands to millions and you will be gone.
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October 3, 2013 7:19pm
nasska

El Guava has spoken! 🙂
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October 3, 2013 7:21pm
mikenmild

Praying for a military government? I wouldn’t have thought it possible; even in Jesusland.
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October 3, 2013 7:24pm
Griff

I am in nasska
as i said earlier if we get called progs etc i will reserve the right to reply in kind
it is very much the same as griff on agw usually i only reply once someone has posted wingnuttery

on that note rationalwiki has a informative post on teabagging
which apparently means to dangle your balls into someone’s mouth
it also has a good post on teabagging the political movement
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October 3, 2013 7:24pm
mikenmild

Griff
Rationalwiki is very helpful like that in defining terms…
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October 3, 2013 7:26pm
Kea

nasska, what do you think Lucy & kowtow will think of your idea ?

I worry kowtow will get physically ill if he is not able to pour hate on the muzzies first thing every morning. Red hates every thing and every one, so he can spread the hate around, but kowtow and Lucy are more specialised.
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October 3, 2013 7:28pm
cha

Spearheading the force.
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October 3, 2013 7:28pm
nasska

I understand it is quite a common practise in conservative circles Griff. 🙂
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October 3, 2013 7:30pm
Kea

nasska, can we still talk about the weather ?

Though I feel the heat has gone out of that debate. It has “paused” for a while now.
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October 3, 2013 7:31pm
nasska

….”Red hates every thing and every one, so he can spread the hate around, but kowtow and Lucy are more specialised.”….

I’d imagine it will twist their guts Kea. 🙂

Edit….chats about the weather should be fine…Kowtow approves of that.
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October 3, 2013 7:32pm
Colville

What is up with you freaks? 322 comments on a day with nothing interesting happening! ??
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October 3, 2013 7:32pm
Kea

nasska, I reckon “bigot bruv” & “vaselineboy” will be in too 🙂

We can then re-double our efforts to promote prog-commie-gay-troll values and our goal of destroying all that is good and decent in the world LOL 🙂
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October 3, 2013 7:38pm
nasska

The statement of intent may need a little work but the cause is a noble one. 🙂
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October 3, 2013 7:41pm
Redbaiter

Nasska, the day I do deals with yellow scum like you is the day pigs orbit the sun in time machines.

Its far too late for any kind of compromise now.

I don’t deal with scum.

By scum I mean the anti religious bigots freaks and cowards who have made a mess of GD now for some time. Ever since they started getting some push back on their daily hate and bigotry.

But least of all you you creepy old bald headed loser. 6000 comments of retard style bigotry and 1000 tired and unfunny jokes.

No way.

EOS.
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October 3, 2013 7:45pm
mikenmild

Reddy is back. Kea is back. nasska is back. After-dinner flame war or rational discussion? Reddy, do you have a topic for discussion, even your favourite reading list would be nice?
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October 3, 2013 7:50pm
nasska

Don’t flatter yourself Baity…you haven’t been offered a deal on anything.

It’s just that after two weeks it will be obvious to the blind as to who bangs on about religion first each day.
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October 3, 2013 7:50pm
bereal

Wow
Inspired choice Kim Dotcom/Schmitt.

When you were looking for a bolthole to evade justice how could you have
made a better choice ?
New Zealand had it all.

Is there any other banana republic anywhere on earth that you could buy for the price
of a fireworks display ?

That has such a naive and compliant media that was so lazy for a ‘story’ that they would just
regurgicate whatever you fed them, hang on your every word.

Not since a shithead called Giovani Di Steffano ( now imprisioned in the UK) have so many sheeple
been conned by one shithead.

And now this prick is considering forming a political party and it seems that the media consider
that to be a possibilty.

Fuck, this is so embarrasing.
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October 3, 2013 7:52pm
Redbaiter

BTW, in your list of cowards

Kea
Griff
LR&C
Davinci

You missed out the illiterate ignorant old bigot Cha.

Better apologise asap, he’s probably feeling pretty hurt right now.
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October 3, 2013 7:53pm
cha

Oh sweets! – you capitalised me, again.
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October 3, 2013 7:56pm
nasska

Sorry Cha. 🙂
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October 3, 2013 7:56pm
Redbaiter

“’s just that after two weeks it will be obvious to the blind as to who bangs on about religion first each day.”

I’ll make sure its me every day scum, and you can do your worst.

You want to make threats concerning the order of this forum then you better make good on them.

POS.
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October 3, 2013 7:56pm
Kea

We often hear people sensibly ask where is the voice of moderate Muslims ? when confronted with extreme views. I now ask where is the voice of moderate Christians ?
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October 3, 2013 7:57pm
mikenmild

Maybe it’s as simple as most people of faith not having to bang on about it every day – they just live by their rules.
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October 3, 2013 8:00pm
nasska

I’ve just been reading that a sheep managed to get into a strip club in Cardiff & caused £2,000 worth of damage.

Then it got up on stage & earned all the money back.
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October 3, 2013 8:01pm
Griff

sidney mike tom
we out number the sycophantic cohort redard
and the god of kb DPF is on our side
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October 3, 2013 8:01pm
Lucia Maria

I don’t bind myself by topic restrictions.
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October 3, 2013 8:04pm
Don the Kiwi

We often hear people sensibly ask where is the voice of moderate Muslims ? when confronted with extreme views. I now ask where is the voice of moderate Christians

There’s one right here, Kea. 🙂
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October 3, 2013 8:04pm
liarbors a joke

“Suppose it went into low energy infrastructure or imagine the population bought aeroplanes which eventually wore out?”

Eh ?
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October 3, 2013 8:07pm
bereal

On and on it goes, the circle fuck.
The same old, same old usual suspects discussing nothing of interest to anyone Never reaching a conclusion.
Never offerring a new point.

Never prevailing in any argument.
Happy to continue with the satus quo.
A closed shop.
Never getting bored listening to each other.

Fukin sad.
Waste of a good blog site.
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October 3, 2013 8:11pm
Kea

“There’s one right here, Kea. ”

Don, good on ya. What do you think of nasska’s idea ?
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October 3, 2013 8:11pm
Lucia Maria

Don,

I wouldn’t call a deacon, moderate.

Just saying!
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October 3, 2013 8:11pm
Kea

I don’t bind myself by topic restrictions.

Lucy, ok but stop the victim act when you get as good as you give. No one is buying it dear 🙂
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October 3, 2013 8:12pm
RightNow

GOD, grant me the Serenity
to accept the things
I cannot change,
Courage to change the
things I can,
and the Wisdom
to not visit General Debate any more.
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October 3, 2013 8:13pm
mikenmild

What do you mean about a deacon, Lucia?
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October 3, 2013 8:14pm
liarbors a joke

On and on it goes, the circle fuck…”hic ”
The same old, same old usual suspects discussing nothing of interest to anyone..”hic”
except themselves.
Never offerring a new point…”hic burrrp ”
Never reaching a conclusion…”hic hic ”
Never prevailing in any argument…”buurrrp”
Happy to continue with the satus quo.
A closed shop…”hic hic”
Never getting bored listening to themselves…”ffaarrt”

Fukin sad…”hic”
Waste of a good blog site…’wheres ma bottle hic”
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October 3, 2013 8:16pm
cha

Don outed himself a while ago mike.
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October 3, 2013 8:17pm
Ryan Sproull

You guys.

Oh, you guys.

Youse guys.

I love youse guys.
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October 3, 2013 8:17pm
Lucia Maria

Ugly,

Doesn’t really answer the question of who did 9/11, though, Lucia Maria. Let’s just say that you don’t want to contest the point that it was a false flag, OK?

I thought it did, as I was just answering your question. Not interested in false flags or other conspiracy theories.

Wouldn’t it be more rational to suggest that the terrorists picked the date to coincide with the hijack exercises and the NY bioterror exercise rather than to match a historical Muslim defeat?

No, as the historic Muslim defeat was therefore turned into a victory. Of course, that victory didn’t last long.
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October 3, 2013 8:18pm
mikenmild

RightNow and LAJ could start a discussion. I wanted to talk about Reddy’s favourite books, but it looks like he’s gone away.
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October 3, 2013 8:19pm
Lucia Maria

Where do you see me playing the victim, Kea?
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October 3, 2013 8:20pm
Griff

your right right now
no one is forced to comment or even read GD
you must admit you posted oon agw as much as anuyone once and it got more complaints than the present prog vrs conservonutter flame war has yet
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October 3, 2013 8:21pm
Kea

Lucy, actually you are not too bad in that regard. My comment is more applicable to your hangers on.
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October 3, 2013 8:22pm
mikenmild

Kea and Lucia close to agreeing on something.
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October 3, 2013 8:24pm
liarbors a joke

Hows the price of chicken breasts at countdown verse Pak and Save…I dunno how P/S do it , cheap but good quality..its got me fucked…
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October 3, 2013 8:24pm
Kea

milky, Lucy and I would agree on plenty if she stopped thumping her bloody bible. I think she is probably an intelligent capable and decent person, though possibly a bit eccentric.
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October 3, 2013 8:27pm
Don the Kiwi

Kea (8,201) Says:

October 3rd, 2013 at 8:11 pm
“There’s one right here, Kea. ”

Don, good on ya. What do you think of nasska’s idea?

I have no issue with it.

Who’s gonna blink first ? 🙂
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October 3, 2013 8:28pm
Don the Kiwi

Lucia Maria (1,741) Says:

October 3rd, 2013 at 8:11 pm
Don,

I wouldn’t call a deacon, moderate.

You wanna hear me preach ! 🙂

No more mamby pamby crap.
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October 3, 2013 8:30pm
nickb

400 comments! Jeez guys, slow day?

At least I learnt something from KB today – John Palino supports the living wage. Is there one, just one, candidate out there that believes in reducing spending, rates and bureaucracy instead of a rag-tag bunch of lunatics, fraudsters, and police baton-fodder?
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October 3, 2013 8:32pm
Kea

Don, well a few of us are ok with it, but others have made it clear they will have no part of it. It is funny how my first months on KB I was very critical of Muslims. But confronted with the daily cascade of hate and hypocrisy of a few christians on KB, I now find myself reminding them of their own wrongs. This has earned me the title of the resident Muslim, even though it is my least favourite of the Abrahamic religions.
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October 3, 2013 8:34pm
mikenmild

Don
Is it okay to pray for the All Blacks to win at Ellis Park this weekend?
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October 3, 2013 8:36pm
nasska

You’re getting a few good promotions there Don…..let me know when you make Cardinal. 🙂
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October 3, 2013 8:43pm
Lucia Maria

Kea,

I think we’d get on better if you’d stop making stuff up.

Lucy and I would agree on plenty if she stopped thumping her bloody bible

Again, where do you see that? I very occasionally make full on religious comments, but seriously, the biggest Bible thumper of recent times has been you.

Don,

You wanna hear me preach ! 🙂

No more mamby pamby crap.

See what I mean? It’s like me trying to pass myself off as a moderate, when I’m an Opus Dei Co-operator and a blogger.

If I’m ever in Hamilton, I’ll make sure to hear you.
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October 3, 2013 8:45pm
mikenmild

Chicks can join Opus Dei?
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October 3, 2013 8:46pm
Don the Kiwi

Kea.

Yes, I was one who labelled you “resident muslim”. Mea culpa – but one can only take from what one reads. All cool.

mm.

Whatever blows yer hair back, brother. Our local Parish priest is nutter when it comes to rugby, so I’m sure he’ll be offering a few up. 🙂
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October 3, 2013 8:47pm
Redbaiter

“400 comments!”

50% by Kea?

Useless troll.
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October 3, 2013 8:47pm
mikenmild

Oh you’re back Reddy! Want to discuss your reading list again? What do you think about DPF reviewing books for the Listener?
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October 3, 2013 8:50pm
Don the Kiwi

Lucia.

If I’m ever in Hamilton, I’ll make sure to hear you.

I’m in Tauranga. 🙂

nasska.

Cardinal will never be on the books – as a building contractor(partly retired) I’m far too coarse for that. Besides, I’m married, and past the age thingy. 🙂
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October 3, 2013 8:52pm
Redbaiter

Tom Jackson- “The market works well at allocating certain kinds of goods, and badly at others. Taxation is the way of fixing the latter.”

What sick socialist fantasy.

What I don’t need is washed up academics telling me how much of my earnings they will help themselves to by electing politicians who will steal it for them.

This is why the left must destroy morality.

Their system will never be accepted if the citizenry is moral.

Hence the breakdown of society in Venezuela and other socialist bogholes. Under the tyranny of socialism for so long, there is no longer any morality cementing their society together. The same thing is happening in NZ. Slower, but the end result will be the same.
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October 3, 2013 8:53pm
nasska

Good to hear that you’re keeping a foot in the secular world, Don.

Happy Godbothering. 🙂
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October 3, 2013 8:55pm
Lucia Maria

Yes, Mike. They have a separate women’s division.

I’m not technically a member, though. Members make all sorts of promises (to perform daily devotions, such as Mass, Rosary etc), and undergo full on training (formation). I’ve just promised to pray for them every day, and I get to go along to Recollections, 2-day retreats and a few other things.
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October 3, 2013 8:56pm
Redbaiter

Gee, that Nasska, ain’t he such a regular guy?
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October 3, 2013 8:57pm
Griff

that’s why i advocate for Agw kea
you know i was originally anti the subverting of nz democratic system by tribes who are getting far to much power with no accountability to the population or even their own members
however clicking on the links to obvious wingnut sites that often were obviously bullshit annoyed the fuck out of me
it also was so obvious were the misinformation was coming from
I expect that the maori issue will reignite when the cqonstituteanal review is released before long
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October 3, 2013 9:01pm
Lucia Maria

Sorry, Don. Tauranga!

Kea’s not a brother, btw. She hasn’t admitted it yet, but she will.
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October 3, 2013 9:03pm
renderer

Hey Red!! how come you don’t raise hell on your own site?
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October 3, 2013 9:04pm
Viking2

School was definitely out today.

Its was a fine day. Children should go outside and play and take the grownups with them.

Mind you its a challenge on KB to tell children from grownups.

😯

378 posts about fuck all.
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October 3, 2013 9:07pm
Griff

redtard is the biggest troll on kb
he dosent stick to his own blog because its sycophantic nature makes it lonely
no one reads it because it dosent allow debate or new ijdeas
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October 3, 2013 9:09pm
bereal

and the huge prize tonite for origional thought goes to…..

Viking2 , See 9.07

Actually, Viking2 @ 9.07 wins going away….

Then we have the very sage contribution from liabors a joke.

fukin irriod.
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October 3, 2013 9:40pm
UglyTruth

I thought it did

Yeah, you’ve made it clear that reality and what you think are not that well acquainted, Lucia Maria.

You made an appeal to prejudice against Islam, nothing more to it than that.

Looks like you’ve found your place in the new world order.
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October 3, 2013 9:50pm
Kea

Nobody has done more on this forum to undermine conservative support than Red. He is a parody of harsh uncaring capitalism and few conservatives would be comfortable in the society he advocates.
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October 3, 2013 9:51pm
cha

Hmm, Civilization Preservation units – I wonder if El Guava’s been recruited.
/

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2013/10/01/oath-keepers-is-going-operational-by-forming-special-civilization-preservation-teams/
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October 3, 2013 9:59pm
bereal

And the biggest irriot of all, so far tonite has to be young Ugly Truth.

Jeez. Is it his Mum or is it his Dad ?

Which one is responsible for rearing such an ignorant prat ?

Who do YOU hold responsible Ugly Truth ?
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October 3, 2013 10:03pm
UglyTruth

Speak of ignorant prats, Bereal, can you tell me what the MSM explanation was as to why the site of the twin towers was hot for weeks afterwards?
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October 3, 2013 10:17pm
bereal

Now there you go, for all to see.

Why is it that the only answer young shitheads like Ugly Truth have to fall back on is
to answer a question with a question ‘ see 10.17 pm above.

Very shallow Ugly Truth.

But typical of your type.

Come down to it, no one home.
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October 3, 2013 10:26pm
Kea

Ugly not sure about what the media said but a fire that size combined with the energy released would keep things hot for months.
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October 3, 2013 10:29pm
UglyTruth

Ok, Bereal, I’ll spell it out for you.

If a question is based on a false assumption or an ambiguity then it is perfectly legitimate to respond with a question which draws attention to that.

You’re worse than an ignorant prat, you are an ignorant prat and a hypocrite.

You can’t answer the question because if you attempted to answer it you would be faced with the problem that the MSM never said why the site remained hot. The MSM can’t address the issue because the only way to explain it is if there was another energy source. All they did was to hint at it by calling the site “ground zero”.

Just like Lucia Maria you can’t cope with the truth.
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October 3, 2013 10:40pm
bereal

Kea says…”Ugly not sure what the media said but……..”

Do you need any other proof to prove that Kea is a fukin irriot ?
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October 3, 2013 10:42pm
renderer

Ugly Truth – your logic (or lack of it) is very hard to follow
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October 3, 2013 10:44pm
Azeraph

Poor fontera, 300 mil.
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October 3, 2013 10:45pm
Kea

Ugly, what is your explanation ? I gave you one, now it is your turn. A fire that size in a pile of rubble that size could have hot spots a year later. Making personal attacks on people won’t change, or distract from, facts.
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October 3, 2013 10:48pm
UglyTruth

Ugly not sure about what the media said but a fire that size combined with the energy released would keep things hot for months.

Nope. The tower fires never got hot enough to melt steel, and the energy released from the gravitational energy wasn’t even enough to supply the energy necessary to create all the fine particulate matter, let alone supply heat for the rivers of molten metal than were present there.

The energy signature of WTC1,2 and 7 proves that the MSM account is false, just like the Bali bombing.
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October 3, 2013 10:48pm
UglyTruth

Ugly Truth – your logic (or lack of it) is very hard to follow

Can you please be more specific?
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October 3, 2013 10:50pm
Kea

The Bali bombing !

What is your take on that ? I am pretty sure it was a bomb.
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October 3, 2013 10:51pm
UglyTruth

Ugly, what is your explanation?

Nanothermite cutter charges and micronukes to melt the central steel cores of the twin towers.
Unexploded nanothermite was found in the debris, also some radioisotopes consistent with a nuclear explosion.

A fire that size in a pile of rubble that size could have hot spots a year later.

Don’t be ridiculous, Kea. You have no explanation for the high volume of molten metal.
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October 3, 2013 10:55pm
renderer

If a question is based on a false assumption or an ambiguity =
then it is more common to challenge the assumption
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October 3, 2013 10:57pm
UglyTruth

I am pretty sure it was a bomb.

Good job, Sherlock. What kind of bomb can strip concrete from reinforcing steel at fifty feet or more like what happened at Bali? (Hint: the explosion also caused flash burns on people)
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October 3, 2013 11:03pm
UglyTruth

then it is more common to challenge the assumption

… which can be done by asking a question, right?
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October 3, 2013 11:05pm

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